Aero India 2009

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 04 Mar 2009 17:58

prasad, either you are blessed with a fantastic memory / or your must be an all india short hand writing champion / or you recorded the whole thing on tape.

terrific job all the same

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 04 Mar 2009 21:19

k prasad wrote: Gen. Sundaram:

- That also means that we have to leverage our strengths, and not try to reinvent the wheel when there is no need to - for eg, why are we (DRDO) doing design with 800-1000 nm when companies in bangalore are well equipped and are already designing 45-65 nm chips?

You can only design what you can fabricate in the country itself. Those companies in bangalore only do the design work. Actual fabrication is done in Taiwan's wafer fabs like TSMC, UMC etc. Defence chips can't be fabricated overseas. So you design based on local fab's capabilities.
A modern wafer fab costs more $1billion to build. Running it efficiently requires capitalism-compatible workers/staff who don't mind working overtime if paid more and if unhappy would leave the job but not protest. No mamtas here. Wafer-fabs run continuous 24/7. Engineers are given cell-phone by company itself. So that if there is ANY breakdown of machine anywhere he can be woken up by staff at plant even in middle of the night. If you sleep heavy and don't respond within 30 minutes then you get fired. Have heard about engineers having to walk out of movie theatres in S'pore on weekends because of problem at plant. Such is the employee-discipline required. Add to that the water requirement. Intel's wafer fab uses up water equal to that consumed by an entire state ! Added to this there already is an overcapacity in fabs all over the world. Inspite of all these needs an efficient wafer-fab with latest tech is a strategic asset both for civilian industry and defence sector. India's inability to build a successful commercial wafer fab has taken a toll here. Taiwan should be India's benchmark in wafer fabs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Mar 2009 21:56

Jagan wrote:prasad, either you are blessed with a fantastic memory / or your must be an all india short hand writing champion / or you recorded the whole thing on tape. terrific job all the same

If you have interest in the subject its amazing how much the mind retains even after sometime.

Apropos Gen Sundaram, it looks like the underlaying factor for all these causes is the IAS mindset. I think they are doing their best to delay and underfund the projects. Some thing is rtotten there. Its a fear as to what India will do if all these capabilities come to fruition.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2009 22:16

Combating and Countering Denial Technology should be the main mantra, and perhaps a separate budget is allocated for DRDO in addition to the regular plan. This is the area where jingos, desh premis et al live.. and where any product will be made to go successful just by the sheer love to get this done.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 05 Mar 2009 09:18

Arya Sumantra wrote:
k prasad wrote: Gen. Sundaram:

- That also means that we have to leverage our strengths, and not try to reinvent the wheel when there is no need to - for eg, why are we (DRDO) doing design with 800-1000 nm when companies in bangalore are well equipped and are already designing 45-65 nm chips?
You can only design what you can fabricate in the country itself. Those companies in bangalore only do the design work. Actual fabrication is done in Taiwan's wafer fabs like TSMC, UMC etc. Defence chips can't be fabricated overseas. So you design based on local fab's capabilities.

That is waht is happening - we are designing inhouse, and sending to TSMC. Now, Astra is slowly taking over the design area as well - they are also setting up a GaAs foundry to make this chips in India. I think it is 200 or 250 um MMIC technology.... as of now, they dont have a foundry yet.

DRDO also has its own GaAs fab plant at GAETEC, which is producing their chips.

ramana wrote:
Jagan wrote:prasad, either you are blessed with a fantastic memory / or your must be an all india short hand writing champion / or you recorded the whole thing on tape. terrific job all the same

If you have interest in the subject its amazing how much the mind retains even after sometime.

Apropos Gen Sundaram, it looks like the underlaying factor for all these causes is the IAS mindset. I think they are doing their best to delay and underfund the projects. Some thing is rtotten there. Its a fear as to what India will do if all these capabilities come to fruition.

Lol good sirs!!! Actually, the little that I posted was what I understood from the 22 minutes of the talk, so its neither memory nor shorthand (Which i dont know)... I couldnt have recorded it either (although it was being webcast btw).... it was short notes + keywords to jog my memory. Even with that, there was a lot that i missed out. Perhaps, by next time, i should indeed learn shorthand!!

the same sentiments of Gen Sundaram and Dr. Saraswat were also expressed by other senior DRDO people - including a couple of directors, who I would not like to name.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Mar 2009 09:28

a person who's older to me made it to interview stage of IAS twice (and he was a sharp guy ug-cse from iitk) but he was given poor marks and failed both times. reason being the entire panel was staffed with people with a socialistic/communist view of the economic model and they got into severe arguments with his pov, and he didnt back down and "conform" to what was the expected answers. he ultimately went to iim-a after wasting couple of yrs pursueing his IAS dream.

so it seems over the decades a lot of these DU/JNU types have infested the IAS and influenced incoming juniors into their bhab-dhara

there would be serious penetration efforts also by alphabet soup agencies
into IAS / IFS ranks like dangling carrots of schols and sabbaticals in premier US univs , think tanks and multilateral agencies. schols for the kids to attend US univs, discreet and high class escort services when
visiting US on official or personal work....a lot can be arranged in a subtle fashion without money changing hands.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 05 Mar 2009 10:11

k prasad wrote:Aerospace Materials: Present and Future

AeroSeminar Highlights:

Thanks for such wonderful information. AI 2009 is proving to be a gold mine for BR jingoes. Great stuff by K prasad and rakall. Both of you should be designated as official BR journalists.

Cheers....

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 05 Mar 2009 10:14

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... s.jpg.html

Noticed this in P.Karthik Kumar's album...

Says CEMILAC issued service clearence for "Crystal Maze".. So it looks like CrytalMaze testing is done and being inducted into service.. Never noticed/heard about the successful tests after the test that failed in Pokhran..

It also mentions a "LEGEND" project for Mirage - Anyone know what that is?

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 05 Mar 2009 10:48

Coming to the Talk with the Saab people, I'm sorry for posting it so late, which has made me forget some details, but hopefully, I've got most of the details required from the 4 people I spoke to for 25 minutes (there isn't much technical stuff, since I'm not good at that, and it would be available anyway - or at least, I'd hoped so):

Saab Gripen for the MMRCA: AI qns

1. The Swedes were extremely courteous and patient, transferring me to the right person, even if they had to be pulled out of meetings.

2. Reason for Absence:

The guy said, "We're different from the other contenders... so we wanted to show that". We brought 3 last time. This time, we didn't bring.

Anyway, the real reason they didn't bring a Gripen is because they are getting the prototypes ready for the trials, and didn't want to risk bringing them here and suffering faults. Additionally, they said that it is a very short timeline from RFP submission to start of trials, so they were working at double pace to get the components tested. Swedish AF gripens couldnt be spared for the show either.

3. Level of ToT:

100%...unequivocal. The lady in charge of the deal said that that was the level of ToT mentioned in the RFP, and they had to follow it. I asked how they could do that if some of the components were not swedish... what she said is that they do hold certain amount of IPR for a certain period of time. However, the US govt would have to give permission for the ToT. When asked how this would be possible given that US aircraft are also in the fray, the reply was that they would have to see...

Then, there was a slightly long reply to this stating that they could have tried to put in a new engine and non-american stuff, but given the shortage of time, they decided to let it remain, and not take any new risks.

4. The Independent choice??

Given that this was the tagline under which they were (extensively) selling the gripen, how could it be the independent choice if there were american and other components in the type on offer. The reply was that sweden would have control of these, and given that it was not a consortium, IPR and ToT would be extremely simple.

5. Weather:

Would Gripen not reduce its performance in terms of hot and humid performance in india as compared to cold and relatively lower altitudes in sweden??

The answer was that both the Thais and the South Africans were using Gripens, and had found no issues. However, the high altitude landing and takeoff performance would need to be seen...

At this point, I pointed out that given that MMRCA was replacing the strike aircraft, and would need to carry heavy payload at high altitudes, would Gripen be able to handle it? The answer was not very sure, but it was that the plane would meet the RFP standards.

6. Weapons fit:

OK... re this bit, the MRCA gripen would be offered with the complete weapons suite that Sweden uses, as well as NATO and European weapons that have been tested till now.

The surest answer that i did here was from this question, regarding whether they'd have issues integrating Russian or Israeli weapons into the Gripen. The answer was that there was absolutely no issues since Sweden held the technology for the weapons fit and integration, and would give it,... they would also help us in integrating any weapons that we chose to use, including not just giving documentation, but actually taking aircraft to their factory and integrating and testing it, and giving us help in this regard. According to the person I spoke to, if it fit the pylons, they'd fit anything for us to use.

The slaving to the sensors and radars of course is slightly more tricky, but they said that given that one of the partners was Swedish and the other british, they didn't foresee too many issues.

7. Upgrade or Downgrades:

The Gripen IN would have zero Downgrades... everything including source codes and weapons codes would be given. In fact, in many respects, there are upgrades, even wrt the NG variant.

Additionally, India would have a stake in future upgrades and developments based on the numbers bought (which should give us a 50% capital stake I think).... the Swedes are very very anxious to partner with us, both in terms of cost and testing, but in terms of future JVs and joint marketing also... one of the persons I spoke to pointed out what the MKI did to Su-30 sales, and said that India would give Gripen a foothold in sales in other countries as well.

8. Cost:

As I pointed out, this was an itchy part for all other contenders as well - given the 10,4 bn $ outlay, they still aren't sure whether they can meet (rafale went so far as to say that it wont)...

The Gripen rep said, "I dont know whether we'd be able to meet the budget or not, since we don't knwo the exact budget outlay and we are still analyzing the IN aircraft, and the business model and impact on offsets, but, Let me put it this way - among all the contenders, Gripen will be by far, the most cost effective."

In relation to cost, I asked about what were the advantages that Gripen would have over the other contenders - the point was that at 4000$/flying hour, Gripen would cost less than half the cost of the other contenders, and would give extremely good performance all the same (they again reiterated that there was nowhere that they would not meet RFP standards). However, I mentioned that others could carry more weapons or fuel or sensors - they said that given the RFP methodology, and since they would meet it, they are confident. Additionally, he mentioned that Gripen was not far behind either.

9. India vs Sweden:

I asked whether the two traditions wouldn't be different, given the different sizes and oeprating doctrines. I also pointed out that India was far larger than any of the Gripen's customer countries, and would need to use Gripen for longer ranges and different roles...

The Answer was that the Gripen was suited for all these roles, and given Sweden's international commitments, they had operated Gripens for long ranges as well..... but still a doubtful answer in my mind.

10. Competition to LCA:

A common question i asked all contenders - what does Indian aerospace, esp Tejas have to gain by MMRCA going to you. To Gripen, I added the extra question of whether they were nervous about LCA Mk.2 being almost identical to Gripen IN, and thus ruining its party??

The sense I got from questioning all 4 reps about this separately was that they are indeed quite nervous about the success of LCA, especially over the past few months, and the accelerated weapons testing.... They first tried to say that LCA and Gripen are two very different aircraft in different weight classes meant for different roles, and in fact, India buying Gripen would actually help LCA. I pointed out in each case that the LCA Mk.2 would be almost the same weight as Gripen IN, with similar performance. In this case, the answer still remained the same, but with extra qualifications, such as IAF is looking at MMRCA in different role, and we fit RFP perfectly. There wasn't a direct admission that Tejas and Gripen are the same, but I got close to getting one. The sense was the same.

Coming to how LCA can gain from Gripen, they siad that they are giving full experience with weapons testing, etc, and if selected, they can definitely partner in engine integration - he pointed out that they also tested from F404 to 414, and had all the expertise in taht area and would not hold anything back. Additionally, they also pointed out that the two programs were similar - small, flagship programs for the two nations. Hence, it was important to collaborate, etc etc etc....

11. Radar:

Will they be able to come out with an AESA on the test aircraft in time?? The Lady said that AESA is important but the present radar is also very good - tried to say that they;re not sure that IAF asked for AESA specifically (which i'm sure is wrong, from impressions gathered from FH Major and other sources). Anyway, the AESA itself is ready, and will be integrated around the time that the testing is going on, so they do hope to show at least the test aircraft to the team. However, they will show the simulator and the AESA itself.... about ToT on the AESA, she said, we'll see.

12. Offsets:

Will be followed.. they want to cut down on costs also, so offsets does make a lot of sense. 50% wouldnt be a problem.

Overall, the impression I got was that Gripen is quite confident, and they know their machine is good. However, they are worried about whether the IAF is looking for something like their aircraft, or they are just there as a filler. They are also worried about LCA and competing with it, which is why they are trying to show how Gripen is different from the Tejas. Another worry are the foreign components. They are not concerned about the performance of the aircraft.

I got some booklets for the Saab technology, and the IN brochure, which I have given to Rakall to scan and put up... look out for those for more info also.

I seem to be forgetting something here, but if i remember anything more, I'll add it.

Qns???

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 05 Mar 2009 12:27

Arya Sumantra wrote: Inspite of all these needs an efficient wafer-fab with latest tech is a strategic asset both for civilian industry and defence sector. India's inability to build a successful commercial wafer fab has taken a toll here. Taiwan should be India's benchmark in wafer fabs.

Was that Sameer Bhatia, the hotmail guy who had plans for such fab? donno what happened with that.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 05 Mar 2009 13:16

vasu_ray wrote:
Arya Sumantra wrote: Inspite of all these needs an efficient wafer-fab with latest tech is a strategic asset both for civilian industry and defence sector. India's inability to build a successful commercial wafer fab has taken a toll here. Taiwan should be India's benchmark in wafer fabs.
Was that Sameer Bhatia , the hotmail guy who had plans for such fab? donno what happened with that.

I guess you mean to say Sabeer Bhatia.

Cheers....

Suman S · Post by **Suman S** » 05 Mar 2009 15:01

Anish, Hiten, Jai, S Sridhar and p_saggu...whoever these gentlemen are, thanx a lot for posting my flight links/stories/quotes on bharat rakshak. Thanx for giving me space and presence here, something which should've been given my those known to me, but was given by unknown people.

Jagan, I am grateful to him for having me brought here, is the one who introduced me to bharat rakshak, and also guided me as to how I could reply.

Saggu has asked who is this mohteram? Sir, firstly get your Urdu straight..its 'mohtarma' (I cant go wrong with Urdu, as I am from Aligarh). I write for South Asia Defence & Strategic Review, and formerly covered defence for Mail Today.

I am pasting below some links, which has my story in various papers in India and abroad, plus youtube:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/200902 ... /main2.htm

http://www.hindu.com/2009/02/16/stories ... 941100.htm

http://www.thestatesman.net/page.arcvie ... &id=277225

http://www.rian.ru/defense_safety/20090 ... 44077.html

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20090217/120188081.html

http://article.wn.com/view/2009/02/15/I ... n_fighter/

http://article.wn.com/view/2009/02/19/M ... and_glory/

http://article.wn.com/view/2009/02/15/S ... ghter_jet/

http://blogs.ibibo.com/madhuvamsiblog/f ... hty-mig-35

youtube-----http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdKVsGyZrnE

http://www.russiatoday.com/Art_and_Fun/ ... ale__.html

http://www.honvedelem.hu/cikk/0/13917/s ... gasok.html

http://indianaviationnews.net/aeroindia ... cards.html

http://www.mybangalore.com/article/flyi ... harma.html

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com//Web/P ... 17_002.jpg

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com//Web/P ... 17_002.jpg

My pictures are there on my blog, if you want to see. Though its not a very well organised blog, its not as jazzy as it ought to be, but you can just see my pix of both my flights---F-16 and MiG-35.

www.chhindits.blogspot.com

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 05 Mar 2009 16:33

k prasad wrote:

I got some booklets for the Saab technology, and the IN brochure, which I have given to Rakall to scan and put up... look out for those for more info also.

I seem to be forgetting something here, but if i remember anything more, I'll add it.

Qns???

OOpsss.. I should have done that 4-5days ago..

I think I am slipping into a "Post AeroIndia Depression" -- unless the good news from the north-west drops a 500pounder to pull me out..

Ok.. here it goes.. Free download. No waiting/passwords

GRIPEN INFO 1MB

http://ifile.it/21oikt6

GRIPEN BOOK 5MB pdf'ed.. with a very good cutaway and two page pics of all the ammo Lots and lots of info on the Gripen.. Simpy the one stop source for all info you want on Gripen..

http://ifile.it/r1tp2gw

s sharma · Post by **s sharma** » 05 Mar 2009 18:18

Rishi wrote:
s sharma wrote: Anyway, the plaque for the alternates is down in the mens room (in the case of us losers).
Ah Goose.... so now you show up!

Great balls of fire...

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 05 Mar 2009 19:32

vasu_ray wrote:
Arya Sumantra wrote: Inspite of all these needs an efficient wafer-fab with latest tech is a strategic asset both for civilian industry and defence sector. India's inability to build a successful commercial wafer fab has taken a toll here. Taiwan should be India's benchmark in wafer fabs.
Was that Sameer Bhatia, the hotmail guy who had plans for such fab? donno what happened with that.

No. some guy named Deven Verma who headed a consortium of yen aar eye experts of massa who were into semiconductors. They called their company HSMC(Hindustan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation) at a place fabcity near Hyd. They signed MOUs with Infineon etc. That fabcity is perpetually under construction or probably not even started and there are allegations of corruption.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 05 Mar 2009 19:43

Suman,
Welcome to BR. Having taken a shotgun ride on two of the most desirable aircrafts with separate design philosophies we jingo’s would appreciate much if you can come up with a post comparing them across different parameters like Avionics, Flight Characteristics, Equipment, Versatility and more.

Suman S · Post by **Suman S** » 05 Mar 2009 20:18

Jay,

I'll only be too happy to do that, but first I have to apologise to everyone here as I didnt mean to make a beginning like this. I guess because of the mistaken identity, I landed in a soup.

Gentlemen I am sorry, if I've hurt anyone, and also I am here to learn and gain knowledge and not ruffle feathers.

Jay, just give me some time, as I am busy giving interviews and first person perspectives to women's magazines for the forthcoming women's day.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Mar 2009 20:28

Suman S wrote:Jay,

I'll only be too happy to do that, but first I have to apologise to everyone here as I didnt mean to make a beginning like this. I guess because of the mistaken identity, I landed in a soup.

Gentlemen I am sorry, if I've hurt anyone, and also I am here to learn and gain knowledge and not ruffle feathers.

Jay, just give me some time, as I am busy giving interviews and first person perspectives to women's magazines for the forthcoming women's day.

Suman - we are happy to have you here - but you are just another person with a special experience and we are honored to be able to get you to share that with us. We do have a lot of tremendously experienced people on here - so you are in a club of experts in their own fields. I am allowed to drop names on behalf of BR but we have among our members Vishnu Som of NDTV and Mayurica of Times Now. B Raman - ex RAW used to post on here once upon a time. We have retired armed forces personnel and the odd active person - and some who have flown fighters or fired weapons in active combat too. Continuing in the name dropping mode, both Air Marshal Rajkumar and Rakesh Sharma, India's only cosmonaut and former test pilot are personal friends of mine and others on here and do visit this forum.

Outside of that we have experts and special people - like Prasad and Rakall this year who have bust butt to give us information. We have the likes of Arun S whose missile information is used by everyone and Jagan himself who is a star in his own right. A news item in the last week spoke of India developing "cloak" tech for stealth. we have on this forum a man whose work on stealth is now being used for that tech - he is currently posting on the LCA thread.

So please join us and help make this place, and India a better and more powerful entity by giving us what you can and taking what we can offer.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Mar 2009 00:30

Welcome to the forum. May you contribute to its knowldege.

ramana

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 06 Mar 2009 01:01

Hello Suman

Welcome to BRF

The person who translated your speech from Russian (as shown in the youtube video) is very dear to me and she was impressed by your speech. So, I had to translate it on BRF for the others.

BTW, I was reading your blog and came across this quote

Since taking to the skies in both aircraft, the question that's been on everyone's lips is which one is better, the American Eagle or the Russian MiG?

The uninitiated might get confused between the F-15 / F-16....JMT!

Anyways, welcome once again and look forward to your contributions.

Suman S wrote:Anish, Hiten, Jai, S Sridhar and p_saggu...whoever these gentlemen are, thanx a lot for posting my flight links/stories/quotes on bharat rakshak. Thanx for giving me space and presence here, something which should've been given my those known to me, but was given by unknown people.

Jagan, I am grateful to him for having me brought here, is the one who introduced me to bharat rakshak, and also guided me as to how I could reply.

Saggu has asked who is this mohteram? Sir, firstly get your Urdu straight..its 'mohtarma' (I cant go wrong with Urdu, as I am from Aligarh). I write for South Asia Defence & Strategic Review, and formerly covered defence for Mail Today.

I am pasting below some links, which has my story in various papers in India and abroad, plus youtube:

Ranvijay · Post by **Ranvijay** » 06 Mar 2009 01:14

Welcome to the forum.

VishnuCK · Post by **VishnuCK** » 06 Mar 2009 01:50

shiv wrote:
Suman - we are happy to have you here - but you are just another person with a special experience and we are honored to be able to get you to share that with us. We do have a lot of tremendously experienced people on here - so you are in a club of experts in their own fields. I am allowed to drop names on behalf of BR but we have among our members Vishnu Som of NDTV and Mayurica of Times Now. B Raman - ex RAW used to post on here once upon a time. We have retired armed forces personnel and the odd active person - and some who have flown fighters or fired weapons in active combat too. Continuing in the name dropping mode, both Air Marshal Rajkumar and Rakesh Sharma, India's only cosmonaut and former test pilot are personal friends of mine and others on here and do visit this forum.

Outside of that we have experts and special people - like Prasad and Rakall this year who have bust butt to give us information. We have the likes of Arun S whose missile information is used by everyone and Jagan himself who is a star in his own right. A news item in the last week spoke of India developing "cloak" tech for stealth. we have on this forum a man whose work on stealth is now being used for that tech - he is currently posting on the LCA thread.

So please join us and help make this place, and India a better and more powerful entity by giving us what you can and taking what we can offer.

Shiv Sir,
Thanks very much for making members both old and new aware of the kind of people participating/contributing to discussions on these forums. This is an awesome forum and literally a gold mine of valuable information!!!!

abhishek · Post by **abhishek** » 06 Mar 2009 07:49

While we are at it, lets not forget JCage and Alok........

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 06 Mar 2009 10:16

Rock-all and Prasad et al..........you guys are awesome.

Thanks for all the info you gathered and shared.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 06 Mar 2009 11:30

Hello Suman,

Welcome to BRF and congratulations for your flights. It is always nice to have good defence journalists from the mainstream media, participating on BRF. I hope that you are able to share a unique perspective of your experiences as a defence journalists with eager folks like me here. At the same time, I would like to inform you to be prepared for a debate. In other words, _nothing_ here is taken as the gospel truth here but debated till a consensus is reached ( or an agreement to disagree). As you can imagine, such an exchange can get heated at times, especially if either of the postors are 'arrogant'(read as not expecting to be challenged or prepared for debate). In such cases, a healthy discussion can become next to impossible.

I had a few miscellanous comments regarding your posts:

Suman S wrote:
thanx a lot for posting my flight links/stories/quotes on bharat rakshak.

You are welcome.

Suman S wrote:
Saggu has asked who is this mohteram?

This has got more to do with cross-pollination of terminology from the Strategic Issues forum, rather than lack of Urdu knowledge. Spending a little time at the strat forum will make this clearer.

Suman S wrote:
I saw some people posting here photos of wimmens@aero india

As you will realize in some time, BRF membership is heavily lopsided towards the male species, thus the photos which were posted(which you have pointed at above) were hardly posted with the intent of 'presence/recognition', but more as eye candy.

Suman S wrote:
but could not or did not want to give due to a fellow flier, history maker, out of jealousy

While I cannot speak for Shiv Aroor, I can say with reasonable certainity that shiv'ji(and many other forum members including myself) would be pretty jealous of you for getting an opportunity to fly in the F-16 and MiG-35 !

Suman S wrote:
deserve every bit of the attention that I've got and am getting.

Indeed it must be great for having an experience like the one which you had at Aero India, but as shiv'ji has highlighted, we have several people at BRF who have done / are doing great things for the country and have been recognized at many levels, without claiming greatness. All they have done is to humbly share their wisdom, year after year. Naturally, in such a manner they have ended up getting a lot of respect and admiration.

Lastly, welcome again to BRF and I hope that your participation here is a mutual knowledge-enhancing exercise for BRF and yourself.

Best,
Jai.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 06 Mar 2009 12:02

Arya Sumantra wrote:No. some guy named Deven Verma who headed a consortium of yen aar eye experts of massa who were into semiconductors. They called their company HSMC(Hindustan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation) at a place fabcity near Hyd. They signed MOUs with Infineon etc. That fabcity is perpetually under construction or probably not even started and there are allegations of corruption.

its OT, anyways from what I heard Fab city at Hyd was more of a real estate scam, if this bunch was serious they could have exercised the relocation option like Tatas, maybe they do not have such deep pockets...

who knows the AP govt. does the lease/sale of the land at the said subsidized rate if it can sell the surrounding land at a margin, the current hype hasn't gotten them the margin yet...

the ROI is just not tempting enough like the Nano for somebody else to invite them with more sweeteners, if only they can find & advertise the captive market in defence as the previous discussion is hinting...

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 06 Mar 2009 13:44

hello & hearty welcome to new members.

Let the debate begin, but a humble reminder.
Please stick to the topic of the forum:

If the discussion veers off target (like a pakistani cruise missile),
then feel free to move the debate to the forum where it best fits.

If this is Aero India 2009 forum, we discuss what was new and interesting in Aero India 2009.

If it is LCA news and discussion.. its just that, we discourage discussing SU-30MKI in LCA forum.

etc etc

(oh yes, wouldn't hurt to check out the BR acronyms and code words, it will come in handy - not to really use it, but to understand what the other person is saying, just don't ask what "musharraf " means, sometimes shortened to "mushy" or simply "mush")

Thank you

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Mar 2009 13:59

Suman S wrote:I have always recieved flak for all the good work that I've done, so I am used to all this. Anyway I want to thank Jagan once again.

You are welcome Suman and hopefully you can contribute to the forum with your insights.

Just a request, blogging on web and particularly on forums is done behind a certain layer of anonymity. This allows for a freer exchange of ideas and direct communications. It goes without saying that "outing" a forumite or unveiling the thin layer of anonymity is not well considered by some. Also for others anonymity is not required!

Further, this forum is searched by Google and indexed and hence available to world at large. With so much information flowing around, it is imperative that a layer of anonymity and privacy is maintained.

Welcome again to the forum.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Mar 2009 15:47

Suman,welcome.I'm not green with envy,as I wouldn't fit into any cockpit these days,but would like to ask a couple of Qs.Whether there was an appreciable noticeable "feel" that TVC,in the air,was superior to a non-TVC fighter and which of the two you felt had more raw power?

Suman S · Post by **Suman S** » 06 Mar 2009 21:26

Philip,

While I've heard that they are testing 3D thrust vectoring nozzles on the Viper, while MiG-35 which already has demonstrated its power was evident even on my flight. I am not sure whether thats a requirement in the tender, but if it is then they have no choice but to fulfill it. Wonder how they would compare single engines with twins.

The afterburner thrust of the MiG, (9000 kgf and dry thrust of 5400 kgf) could be felt especially in the take off. Obviously the twin-engines were like , you touch the aircraft and it races ahead. Absolute power!!

Jay, I'll come back to your questions in a while.

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 06 Mar 2009 22:07

Welcome to the forum Suman.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Mar 2009 22:22

putting TVC into RFP should filter many contenders. they would rather go by AoA and other specification details in the RFP.

?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Mar 2009 06:24

SaiK wrote:putting TVC into RFP should filter many contenders.

?

It would filter all but 4

Su 30
MiG 35
F-35
Harrier

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 08 Mar 2009 05:36

A question to all gurus here.

Most NATO countires are replacing their F-16's with JSF. Norway selected JFS over the Gripen, and Rafael and Eurofighter did not even bother to compete. My understanding is that the JSF will be a whole generation ahead of rest of the pack. From media I have learned that JSF can be offered to India, if it wants it. The JSF will be a reasonable fighter, as it is going to be produced in huge numbers.

So why not go for the JSF in large numbers. At the same time, I am sure India can purchase the MKI's as a stop gap mesure.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Mar 2009 07:31

Rishirishi wrote:A question to all gurus here.

Most NATO countires are replacing their F-16's with JSF. Norway selected JFS over the Gripen, and Rafael and Eurofighter did not even bother to compete. My understanding is that the JSF will be a whole generation ahead of rest of the pack. From media I have learned that JSF can be offered to India, if it wants it. The JSF will be a reasonable fighter, as it is going to be produced in huge numbers.

So why not go for the JSF in large numbers. At the same time, I am sure India can purchase the MKI's as a stop gap mesure.

WRONG THREAD

My reply is here

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 91#p631991

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Mar 2009 08:38

Rishirishi wrote:A question to all gurus here.

Most NATO countires are replacing their F-16's with JSF. Norway selected JFS over the Gripen, and Rafael and Eurofighter did not even bother to compete. My understanding is that the JSF will be a whole generation ahead of rest of the pack. From media I have learned that JSF can be offered to India, if it wants it. The JSF will be a reasonable fighter, as it is going to be produced in huge numbers.

So why not go for the JSF in large numbers. At the same time, I am sure India can purchase the MKI's as a stop gap mesure.

first of all, because the F-35 will be available to partners only starting from 2014. and since India isn't a partner, it'll be further down the line as far as priority for deliveries are concerned. so if the IAF or IN did want the F-35, it wouldn't recieve a F-35A, B or C, till 2020 at the very least. secondly, the F-35 is not being offered, and the even if it was, there is no certain price for the F-35..it all depends on which batch the F-35 was purchased from (which line number, and so forth). all in all, it doesn't fit into the MRCA competition time schedule at all.

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 08 Mar 2009 12:02

Why we have to go F35 or F22,when we are getting T50 and we are 50% partner.We can upgrade accordingly our choice.

s sharma · Post by **s sharma** » 08 Mar 2009 13:05

Suman S wrote:Philip,

While I've heard that they are testing 3D thrust vectoring nozzles on the Viper, while MiG-35 which already has demonstrated its power was evident even on my flight. I am not sure whether thats a requirement in the tender, but if it is then they have no choice but to fulfill it. Wonder how they would compare single engines with twins.

Firstly, TV is not part of the MMRCA requirements but EF is offering it as a future tranche and MiG is actively marketing it. Also, supercrusie is one of the options available from two of the six contenders.

USAF experiences with TVC date back to the 80s when in conjunction with NASA conventional fighters were modified for TVC and experimented with. The F-15 ACTIVE (Adv. Control Tech for Integrated Vehicle), F-16 MATV (Multi-Axis TV), F-18 HARV (High AoA/Alpha Research Vehicle) and X-31 EFM (Enhanced Fighter Maneuverability) to name a few.

The X-31 was a joint USAF/NASA and German (MBB) project. The lessons learned with the twin jet F-15 & F-18 test beds provided basis for the flat nozzle/pitch axis PW engined Raptor and the single engined F-16 and X-31 provided info for the Lightening II. For the JSF, Lockheed studied Yak-141s design of the lift jet as well.

F-16 MATV testing began in early 90s and in simulated dogfights between the X-31 and a conventional F/A-18, the X-31 generated an impressive 8:1 kill-to-loss ratio in the visual range environment and an even greater 32:1 ratio in the guns-only contest. The results were achieved using the post-stall maneuverability. Most of this info is in public domain.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Mar 2009 13:19

Please Post more Pictures of various stalls at Aero India 2009

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 08 Mar 2009 22:17

k prasad wrote:Coming to the Talk with the Saab people, I'm sorry for posting it so late, which has made me forget some details, but hopefully, I've got most of the details required from the 4 people I spoke to for 25 minutes (there isn't much technical stuff, since I'm not good at that, and it would be available anyway - or at least, I'd hoped so):

Saab Gripen for the MMRCA: AI qns

1. The Swedes were extremely courteous and patient, transferring me to the right person, even if they had to be pulled out of meetings.

2. Reason for Absence:

The guy said, "We're different from the other contenders... so we wanted to show that". We brought 3 last time. This time, we didn't bring.

Anyway, the real reason they didn't bring a Gripen is because they are getting the prototypes ready for the trials, and didn't want to risk bringing them here and suffering faults. Additionally, they said that it is a very short timeline from RFP submission to start of trials, so they were working at double pace to get the components tested. Swedish AF gripens couldnt be spared for the show either.

3. Level of ToT:

100%...unequivocal. The lady in charge of the deal said that that was the level of ToT mentioned in the RFP, and they had to follow it. I asked how they could do that if some of the components were not swedish... what she said is that they do hold certain amount of IPR for a certain period of time. However, the US govt would have to give permission for the ToT. When asked how this would be possible given that US aircraft are also in the fray, the reply was that they would have to see...

Then, there was a slightly long reply to this stating that they could have tried to put in a new engine and non-american stuff, but given the shortage of time, they decided to let it remain, and not take any new risks.

4. The Independent choice??

Given that this was the tagline under which they were (extensively) selling the gripen, how could it be the independent choice if there were american and other components in the type on offer. The reply was that sweden would have control of these, and given that it was not a consortium, IPR and ToT would be extremely simple.

5. Weather:

Would Gripen not reduce its performance in terms of hot and humid performance in india as compared to cold and relatively lower altitudes in sweden??

The answer was that both the Thais and the South Africans were using Gripens, and had found no issues. However, the high altitude landing and takeoff performance would need to be seen...

At this point, I pointed out that given that MMRCA was replacing the strike aircraft, and would need to carry heavy payload at high altitudes, would Gripen be able to handle it? The answer was not very sure, but it was that the plane would meet the RFP standards.

6. Weapons fit:

OK... re this bit, the MRCA gripen would be offered with the complete weapons suite that Sweden uses, as well as NATO and European weapons that have been tested till now.

The surest answer that i did here was from this question, regarding whether they'd have issues integrating Russian or Israeli weapons into the Gripen. The answer was that there was absolutely no issues since Sweden held the technology for the weapons fit and integration, and would give it,... they would also help us in integrating any weapons that we chose to use, including not just giving documentation, but actually taking aircraft to their factory and integrating and testing it, and giving us help in this regard. According to the person I spoke to, if it fit the pylons, they'd fit anything for us to use.

The slaving to the sensors and radars of course is slightly more tricky, but they said that given that one of the partners was Swedish and the other british, they didn't foresee too many issues.

7. Upgrade or Downgrades:

The Gripen IN would have zero Downgrades... everything including source codes and weapons codes would be given. In fact, in many respects, there are upgrades, even wrt the NG variant.

Additionally, India would have a stake in future upgrades and developments based on the numbers bought (which should give us a 50% capital stake I think).... the Swedes are very very anxious to partner with us, both in terms of cost and testing, but in terms of future JVs and joint marketing also... one of the persons I spoke to pointed out what the MKI did to Su-30 sales, and said that India would give Gripen a foothold in sales in other countries as well.

8. Cost:

As I pointed out, this was an itchy part for all other contenders as well - given the 10,4 bn $ outlay, they still aren't sure whether they can meet (rafale went so far as to say that it wont)...

The Gripen rep said, "I dont know whether we'd be able to meet the budget or not, since we don't knwo the exact budget outlay and we are still analyzing the IN aircraft, and the business model and impact on offsets, but, Let me put it this way - among all the contenders, Gripen will be by far, the most cost effective."

In relation to cost, I asked about what were the advantages that Gripen would have over the other contenders - the point was that at 4000$/flying hour, Gripen would cost less than half the cost of the other contenders, and would give extremely good performance all the same (they again reiterated that there was nowhere that they would not meet RFP standards). However, I mentioned that others could carry more weapons or fuel or sensors - they said that given the RFP methodology, and since they would meet it, they are confident. Additionally, he mentioned that Gripen was not far behind either.

9. India vs Sweden:

I asked whether the two traditions wouldn't be different, given the different sizes and oeprating doctrines. I also pointed out that India was far larger than any of the Gripen's customer countries, and would need to use Gripen for longer ranges and different roles...

The Answer was that the Gripen was suited for all these roles, and given Sweden's international commitments, they had operated Gripens for long ranges as well..... but still a doubtful answer in my mind.

10. Competition to LCA:

A common question i asked all contenders - what does Indian aerospace, esp Tejas have to gain by MMRCA going to you. To Gripen, I added the extra question of whether they were nervous about LCA Mk.2 being almost identical to Gripen IN, and thus ruining its party??

The sense I got from questioning all 4 reps about this separately was that they are indeed quite nervous about the success of LCA, especially over the past few months, and the accelerated weapons testing.... They first tried to say that LCA and Gripen are two very different aircraft in different weight classes meant for different roles, and in fact, India buying Gripen would actually help LCA. I pointed out in each case that the LCA Mk.2 would be almost the same weight as Gripen IN, with similar performance. In this case, the answer still remained the same, but with extra qualifications, such as IAF is looking at MMRCA in different role, and we fit RFP perfectly. There wasn't a direct admission that Tejas and Gripen are the same, but I got close to getting one. The sense was the same.

Coming to how LCA can gain from Gripen, they siad that they are giving full experience with weapons testing, etc, and if selected, they can definitely partner in engine integration - he pointed out that they also tested from F404 to 414, and had all the expertise in taht area and would not hold anything back. Additionally, they also pointed out that the two programs were similar - small, flagship programs for the two nations. Hence, it was important to collaborate, etc etc etc....

11. Radar:

Will they be able to come out with an AESA on the test aircraft in time?? The Lady said that AESA is important but the present radar is also very good - tried to say that they;re not sure that IAF asked for AESA specifically (which i'm sure is wrong, from impressions gathered from FH Major and other sources). Anyway, the AESA itself is ready, and will be integrated around the time that the testing is going on, so they do hope to show at least the test aircraft to the team. However, they will show the simulator and the AESA itself.... about ToT on the AESA, she said, we'll see.

12. Offsets:

Will be followed.. they want to cut down on costs also, so offsets does make a lot of sense. 50% wouldnt be a problem.

Overall, the impression I got was that Gripen is quite confident, and they know their machine is good. However, they are worried about whether the IAF is looking for something like their aircraft, or they are just there as a filler. They are also worried about LCA and competing with it, which is why they are trying to show how Gripen is different from the Tejas. Another worry are the foreign components. They are not concerned about the performance of the aircraft.

I got some booklets for the Saab technology, and the IN brochure, which I have given to Rakall to scan and put up... look out for those for more info also.

I seem to be forgetting something here, but if i remember anything more, I'll add it.

Qns???

I also spent quite some time om Grippen stall.

Gripen's operating cost is ~ US$ 2,000 per hour; for the F 16 it is US$ 4,000 per hour.

By opting for a neutral Sweden Indian does not antagonise either USA or Russia.

Gripen has been tested ( or will be tested ) for almost all western weapons including Meteor, Iris, Scalp/Storm Shadow, Taurus etc. Given "some" details they can integrate any, read Russian ?, weapon.

Punch line of SAAB is that if India takes a techno commercial cost effective decision Gripen will win hands down.

Gripen is entering service with South Africa, Czech and Hungary. Last year Thailand ordered Gripen, AFTER using F 16 for many years.

One of the non tangible benefits we get form selecting Gripen is how to use modern aircraft form ordinary roads. I suppose Sweden's "ordinary" roads may be slightly different form our "ordinary" roads.

K