Indian IT Industry

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 08 Apr 2009 12:51

Just for reference sake....previously what was the usual amount paid p.m. to freshers during initial training period?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2009 12:55

15k for anna univ college. that hasnt changed this year.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 08 Apr 2009 12:58

How much ballpark do the Eye Eye Tea BTech fucchas pull for same kind of training period in same kind of company?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 08 Apr 2009 13:21

Tata wins Child maintenance deal in UK worth 50m pounds

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/0 ... c_it_deal/

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Apr 2009 14:01

Raja Bose wrote:How much ballpark do the Eye Eye Tea BTech fucchas pull for same kind of training period in same kind of company?

3-4K p.m higher than the non IIT SDREs in oily co...The IIT/ NIT guys earn 20% than the non-IIT untouchables on joining itself.

(Btw, i used to get 4 digit p.m salary during my probation in oily co just a few years back. So the current batches are "luckier"

)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2009 15:30

the 'social contract' is not there anymore between employee and company. they are being reduced to a bunch of contractors on whom the co will spend the bare minimum if they dont work on a live project.

I wonder if they medical insurance is also downsized if on the bench - thats the next step fwd in cost cutting.

their mindless mania to hire 10s of thousands of people is coming back to bite now and
nobody wants to take responsibility.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 08 Apr 2009 17:04

sir ,situation of 2008 batch is not that good specially for non-IIT untouchables.

TCS - all 2008 batch joined in but most dont have projects yet. 2009 batch already given DOJs.
Remaining 1000 freshers to join TCS

Infy - all 2008 batch joined in but training period is extended for most.2009 batch already given DOJs
Infy offers NGO stint to staff at half pay
2009 bacth DOJ

Wipro - 2008 batch given joining dates from may to dec 2009.

HCL tech -No joining for most of 2008 batch,all online trainings stopped till further notice,some of those joined are transfered to BPO.
Wait set to end for HCL Tech recruits
hcl-goes-for-salary-freeze-bonus-cutbacks

Accenture - online training going on for 2008 batch,some got DOJs few days back.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2009 20:51

DOJ means a month or two of kissing by the HR followed by being asked to stay at home and do online training on a small stipend or will they be retained in the office and given the freebies like seats and computers?

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Apr 2009 21:01

Bhai log if what you guys are saying is true then the situation is pretty bad . I mean 15k PM in 2009

. And then beebul complain IT VITY make lotsa money .

. Some one needs to tell those folks that not everyone works for the Gorilla

.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 08 Apr 2009 22:04

Singha wrote:DOJ means a month or two of kissing by the HR followed by being asked to stay at home and do online training on a small stipend or will they be retained in the office and given the freebies like seats and computers?

sir,online training in above cases are before joining and after the useless
online training ,everyone is asked to give one or two tests and if someone fails in that then
he/she can kiss goodbye to the offer after waiting for months.

Theres no stripend during online training and in some cases ,students have to pay the company
in the name of getting certification training ,and if student fails to get certified then forget the fees(20K+)
& if he/she clears then certification fees will be paid back after joining for which he/she have to
wait for few more months.

This all is just tip of iceberg,for any further detail about any company,best way is to just visit any
social networking community specially orkut.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 08 Apr 2009 22:51

negi wrote: Bhai log if what you guys are saying is true then the situation is pretty bad . I mean 15k PM in 2009 . And then beebul complain IT VITY make lotsa money . . Some one needs to tell those folks that not everyone works for the Gorilla .

This does sound pretty bleak for the workforce thats coming out into the world. So basically a RCG ITVity SW engineer pulls in around what a call center operator does. Bummer.

SWs cousin is also under a lot of pressure, but it hasnt been a numbers game for them. So situation is bad, but not as dire.

Been chained away in the bowels of our galley for while now. Any time including BR time is at a premium. But maybe I shouldnt complain.

achit · Post by **achit** » 08 Apr 2009 23:24

Singha wrote:news from a noted lighting/IT/oil co:

- freshers paid 15k/pm over 2 month training
- then they are paid 6k/pm and told to login from home and do online training modules until they are placed on projects- freshers need to pay a cheque of hefty amt which is held as security deposit
should she depart before 18 months. iirc 60k.

for current experienced employees on bench
- 50% of pay onree
- asked to be in office 2 days/week onree to save on seats, water, tea, coffee
& infra costs

They are getting 6K/pm for login from home!!!!
I started with 7K/PM with Kirtan & Pandit in late 90's!!!!

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 08 Apr 2009 23:26

negi wrote: Bhai log if what you guys are saying is true then the situation is pretty bad . I mean 15k PM in 2009 . And then beebul complain IT VITY make lotsa money . . Some one needs to tell those folks that not everyone works for the Gorilla .

15K for freshers is the standard across the IT industry in India ... all Indian services companies pay in that range ... its mostly the MNCs who have setup operations in India that pay astronomical salaries that get quoted in newspapers .... But then IT is (was ??) still one of the best paymasters in the Indian corporate sector ...

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Apr 2009 00:33

15K is a decent salary from freshers. Average salalries are not that high as depicted in news papers.

Here is some news and comments about wipro in TOI:

Wipro sacks 33 employees

NEW DELHI: IT companies HR teams too have not been left untouched by pink slips. According to a web report, Wipro has given marching orders to as
many as 33 of its employees who formed the part of the company's candidate relationship management team.

The team was specifically responsible for talent acquisition. However, with a hiring freeze across centres, these recruiters had little to do.

The report quotes an employee who on the condition of anonymity said that they were told on March 17 that they have only thirteen days left in the organisation. By March 30, all the team members were relieved from service and the team was dissolved. According to him, none of them were given notice.

Earlier in February, the company said it would honour the job offers it made to 8,000 freshers, though there is a possibility of this spilling over to next year.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are comments to editor of TOI:

Guru , Mumbai , says: This is true for all IT companies .. even for IBM, Accenture, HP, Tech Mahindra and all. These companies I know call employees to a hall and give them a typed resignation letter to sign, as resigning on personal grounds. And this gives then legal advantage.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1720 hrs IST]

Jawahar , Hyherabad , says: Nobody knows or has seen the other side of the coin -- in Wipro below performers are also the King/Queen with high level influence and support. This is true in many cases were a below performers ratings get change in minutes.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1617 hrs IST]

gk , Delhi , says: Friends you are getting it wrong. It is not that media doesn't know about mass layoffs. It is that the media is now controlled by foreign investors and corporations and is actively supporting layoffs in companies. Basically the media now is supporting the American crony capitalism and its policies.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1609 hrs IST]
anonymous , Pune , says: I am myself a Wiproite. I know the way these people are sacking employees. They just want to show good profit in this quarter. They hardly care for any person. Cut the salaries of CEO, CFO and CTO which will help the whole organisation in cost cutting.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1547 hrs IST]

Rahul , Pune , says: Those who blame the companies should remember that in good times, greedy employees shamelessly used to disappear without any notice when they used to get a few bucks more. Its just the full circle which has come back.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1544 hrs IST]

Yatanveer Singh , Bangalore , says: Wipro has lost its reputation to such an extent that people have stopped considering it as a company to join even if they are working in small company.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1523 hrs IST]

Rajeev , Delhi , says: Wipro would have paid cash salary to compensate for shorter notice period than provided in their employment contract (otherwise illegal). But IT employees normally have just one month notice period, which is not good enough to find a job. Shorter notice period serves an employee well when the market is booming (to switch jobs quickly) but it bites when the market is down.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1515 hrs IST]

Srinivasan , Shanghai , says: It will be naive to assume in the given economic situation there will not be any job losses. However, it is shocking to know that companies and leaders of these companies do not have the courage to speak the truth. After the Satyam fiasco, it is incumbent on these leaders (WIPRO, INFY and all the rank and file) to be transparent and be honest with the public. It is ironic that inspite of the recent incidents in corporate India, the leaders do not want to come clean.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1515 hrs IST]

Amit , Pune , says: Basically what we have to do (very seriously) is to create an Intellectual Team from each and every IT Organization across India (strictly keep them away from the strikes and politics) to pressurize IT Organization for good causes as far as such and other incidences are concerned.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1512 hrs IST]

Save_IT , Bangalore , says: Only 33!! ToI is not able to extract correct information from industry. They should conduct sting operations to expose Premji, Narayan Muthy and Ratan Tata. Its shame as these cos are even providing serverance package, who said these cos follow great deal of processes and standards.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1507 hrs IST]

Rishi , EU , says: Can't understand the Whining here. IT employees have often acted in the most selfish manner. Some jumped from companies to companies at the sight of a rupee coin. Why should the companies act any differently?
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1506 hrs IST]

IT Hyd , Hyderabad , says: Normally Wipro harasses people for submitting resignation and this way they have already laid of 1000s and 1000s of people.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1452 hrs IST]

Rocky , S , says: There should be a trade union in IT industry as well. Without a trade union, employees cannot have a chance to put forth their views. Its the time to put an end to exploitation.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1450 hrs IST]

krishna , Bangalore , says: Talent acquisition team! pooof.. A team of arrogant blokes with no talent. Whatsoever, they deserve what they got.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1446 hrs IST]

Wiproite , Bangalore , says: Wipro has lost all its sheen, although Azim Premji, the founder is a man of ethics, his organization is the least ethical. Over the years Wipro has grown in-organicaly ... which means acquisitions, layoffs, retrenchment, harrasement of employees. There is no human policy .... the three values of Wipro lie in shame .... pity that decision makers cannot practise what they write on the board.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1429 hrs IST]

anoymomy , mumbai , says: Wipro is sacking all employees without even giving time, it is wrost to hear this all happing only after Satyam news... Something is going wrong with Wipro management.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1407 hrs IST]

Vandana , Bangalore , says: Labour laws in India are insufficient and so is the unity among the IT people. My husband recently got laid off from Patni, he was at the client side whole year and he has the ratings from there saying exceptional, still he was forced to resign. They torture people, make them resign else say will terminate. Because we feel alone we sccumb and resign and are left on our own. Hope some one is listening and improves labour laws and gives protection to the people who are made victims. Can TOI help people and take an initative here.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1401 hrs IST]

Infoscion , Bangalore , says: Though there are a few instances of pink slips been handed over in Infosys, it isn't on a very large scale as yet. But yes, anyone violating even the most minor rules stands the chances to be axed, in these despeartes times. Work culture has deteriorated with managers becoming ruthless to save their asses.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1339 hrs IST]

Vinay Syal , Canada , says: When the going was good most of the mediocre techies enjoyed and kept on getting the salaries even constituting the bench strength and this salary level was much higher than the normal salary structure in the country. And let us admit it most of these people never deserved the kind of salary they were getting. So why to blame these IT companies now. Now when the going is tough only the good people will survive so the good professionals need not worry. They will always be in demand whether within the country or outside the country. Class will be respected and required every where and any time.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1335 hrs IST]

Renjith , Bangalore , says: I do agree that companies should give some time to the employees to find an alternative job..Employees when they find better oppertunities, when they find better salaries, they do jump right? Then what is wrong with the companies doing the same when they face a situation? One may argue that the company is laying off employees who are potentially loyal to the company..but in my view mainly all of them look for sub-standard performers and try to reduce their numbers..
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1334 hrs IST]

Rans , New Delhi , says: Same is true for Infy...many of my colleagues have been sacked without giving prior notice...so sad..these bunch of greedy people can do anything...
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1326 hrs IST]
Anonymous , Bangalore , says: The software employee association should do something about this. The company is resorting to unfair practices. The very same companies asked the employees to pay money in case they broke bond or did not serve notice period. Now \they are not keeping their end of the bargain. During these hard times, the companies should accept lower profits and continue to support employees.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1325 hrs IST]

Vinnie , Pune , says: Wipro says that people who are on bench will be given two opportunities, and opportunities are like Project Engineers will be shifted to BPO. If someone's refuses this has to leave the organization.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1311 hrs IST]

Anonymus , Bangalore , says: Really funny...Infy yesterday laid of 74 people in its Bangalore centre. No one even the project managers knew about the desicion. But unfortunately it came to light as one of the laid of person is my friend. Really, IT sucks.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1308 hrs IST]

vijay kumar , Chennai , says: Employees of Wipro Technologies are being laid off as projects are not present. As it is well known that whenever employees are laid off in companies like Infosys and Wipro usually media takes over and then the layoff plan is postponed. So now Wipro is laying their employees in small numbers every fortnight so that this does not come into media light. My layoff story: I was selected nearly two years back as lateral entry. My previous experience was counted and was told that the environment given will be good and that I will be provided with a cutting edge technology work domain. Further my knowledge was well appreciated at the interview. After I was alloted a project I was treated badly and even a PC keyboard was lifted to physically abuse me. My fault was that I was not knowing most of the technical knowledge which was being used in this company. For the next two year I was given verbal abusement and was kept on bench as a punishment (sometimes in between). All these remarks made my life miserable. I even wanted to quit but due to lack of technical knowledge was not able to do so. When slowdown occured, I was told to resign voluntarily and reason given was that projects are not available and I am in freepool for a long time. Also if background checking of my profile was done then I will come clean. I asked for sometime to give resignation and was accepted but nothing was given in written by the HR department. I was shouted at by the HR department when they came to know that I am ready for voluntarily resigning. What I fail to understand that some people who were even lower in terms of technical know how are stil working in the team lead position and that there job is secured.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1305 hrs IST]

Rajesh , Bangalore , says: Government should stop giving tax breaks to IT companies under STPI if they lay off people. US government is protecting their workers, who is protecting Indian workers?
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1303 hrs IST]

Sridhar , Bangalore , says: Laying off programmers or software engineers are common as they can not earn revenue without engaging them in client project. But Laying off recruiters is unheared off, as normally only one or 2 HR or recruiters will be there for every several hundreads or even 1000s of technical people. Also, non technical staff are paid very less compared to technical staff. True, these non technical staffs like HR, Admin, Finance can not directly earn revenue and they are always cost resources, but essential or support or backbone staffs. The salary cost associated with less than 100 support staff compared to salary costs of lakhs of technical staff are neglible. Sacking them without notice is totally unethical. What is the difference between these IT honchas and fly by night body shoppers? If a body (head) earns money by leasing them to the client project, they motivate and speak tons about importance of human values, but when the body(head) cannot earn money, the same IT honchas or leaders throw them away. A building or real estate contrators who engage daily wage illeterate masons and carpenters for the building construction activities are far more better than these so called new generaion IT business magnets. The contracters or builders always use a same set of labourers loyal and working for them, giving livelyhood job for atleast 100 to 200 days in a year. Whereas these IT honchas who enjoys all the benefits of Government concessions, ready made leased infrastructures of IT tech parks built by government, seed money fom venture capitalists are just reaping and harvesting the yield of helpless, unsecured programmers, without honouring any long term commitments to the programmers or employees.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1254 hrs IST]

Ex Wiproite , delhi , says: I was a Wiproite and I was laid off. Management is forcing people to quit and doesn't keep any paper trail. It only verbally harasses people by asking for resignation letters and makes them quit.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1238 hrs IST]

Urja , Pune , says: Basically the entire IT industry is run by a greedy bunch of people. This is true for any other industry. Unfortunately, people like me and you suffer by loosing our jobs.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1234 hrs IST]

Anonymous , UK , says: Managers are GOD in Wipro. I think this explains enough. They can do what they want...... It's shame!!!!
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1510 hrs IST]

CalvinH · Post by **CalvinH** » 09 Apr 2009 02:33

Good times (typical IT services company)- Salaries mentioned are when you leave the band

0-1 year - trainee- 15K
1 year - 3 year - SW Engineer - 30K
3-5 Module Lead/SSE (team of 4) - 60K
5-7 Years - Project Manager (team 5-20) - 90K
7-9 Years - Senior Project Manager (team 20-50) - 110K
8- 10 Years Business Manager/Group Project Manager/Engagement Manager/Account Manager (team/account/projects - 100-150) - 150K

Average age when you reach the last level - 30 Years with just a BE degree. Lets talk about starting salary.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2009 07:39

the 'rise' (in designation, team size) in good times was so vertical there is simply no role or headroom for a lot of people to 'grow' within the org now. many were promoted well beyond their abilities because the co was growing fast or because they were chums/few offered 'services' to higher ups to secure their future.
these people have nowhere to run now - they cannot become hands on engineers or solution architects - they left being technical way back after a few yrs in the workforce and move to people and client management.

senior GIs will always have some value in product cos and generally the managers too
tend to be more technical although they are equally into nepotism and chummy politics often.

the services cos will have to trim down by 30% and freeze all hiring for a few years until
things settle down probably. chasing out exp people to replace with stipended freshers
will lead them further into disaster.

the indian fetish for chasing team size and designations as a mark of self-worth at its finest.

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Apr 2009 09:47

0-1 year - trainee- 15K
1 year - 3 year - SW Engineer - 30K
3-5 Module Lead/SSE (team of 4) - 60K
5-7 Years - Project Manager (team 5-20) - 90K
7-9 Years - Senior Project Manager (team 20-50) - 110K
8- 10 Years Business Manager/Group Project Manager/Engagement Manager/Account Manager (team/account/projects - 100-150) - 150K

Isnt the salary range same for Amriki MNCs also in the >8-10 yrs range due to smaller increments compared to Desi MNCs?

They may start off higher but by 8-10 years, isnt it all the same for Desi and Amriki?

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 09 Apr 2009 11:10

Sum, Are you sure people are getting ~60K with just 3-5 years of experience. Looks pretty high to me but then I maybe underestimating the salaries in Desh.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2009 11:38

sum, I really do not think the vast bottom of the pyramid in the services cos recruited over the last 5 yrs can all rise to attain high salaries. there simply is not going to sufficient headcount growth going fwd to make everyone a brigadier or major general.

also the desi cos keep a good chunk of the salary as "variable component" and allegedly
few people get 100% of that. bideshi cos keep 10-15% as bonus target and normally people do get 100% of target and sometimes more. outstanding performers always get more than the grade target.

there is less of the packaging games with gross salary in bideshi cos.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 09 Apr 2009 12:08

Lot of folks in the TOI link that Muppalla posted seem to be from the Log Kya Kahenge brigade.

Muppalla wrote: Vandana , Bangalore , says: Labour laws in India are insufficient and so is the unity among the IT people. My husband recently got laid off from Patni, he was at the client side whole year and he has the ratings from there saying exceptional, still he was forced to resign. They torture people, make them resign else say will terminate. Because we feel alone we sccumb and resign and are left on our own. Hope some one is listening and improves labour laws and gives protection to the people who are made victims. Can TOI help people and take an initative here.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1401 hrs IST]

I don't get this one... Why not just get terminated and say that Wipro terminated me because my contract ran out. Nothing wrong in that. What is this torture they speak of?

This one made me laugh

vijay kumar [/b], Chennai , says: Employees of Wipro Technologies are being laid off as projects are not present. As it is well known that whenever employees are laid off in companies like Infosys and Wipro usually media takes over and then the layoff plan is postponed. So now Wipro is laying their employees in small numbers every fortnight so that this does not come into media light. My layoff story: I was selected nearly two years back as lateral entry. My previous experience was counted and was told that the environment given will be good and that I will be provided with a cutting edge technology work domain. Further my knowledge was well appreciated at the interview. After I was alloted a project I was treated badly and even a PC keyboard was lifted to physically abuse me. My fault was that I was not knowing most of the technical knowledge which was being used in this company. For the next two year I was given verbal abusement and was kept on bench as a punishment (sometimes in between). All these remarks made my life miserable. I even wanted to quit but due to lack of technical knowledge was not able to do so. When slowdown occured, I was told to resign voluntarily and reason given was that projects are not available and I am in freepool for a long time. Also if background checking of my profile was done then I will come clean. I asked for sometime to give resignation and was accepted but nothing was given in written by the HR department. I was shouted at by the HR department when they came to know that I am ready for voluntarily resigning. What I fail to understand that some people who were even lower in terms of technical know how are stil working in the team lead position and that there job is secured.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1305 hrs IST]

Dude admits he didn't have the technical knowledge for the company he was sent to. Instead of sitting down and breaking out the books like a good boy and acquiring the technical skills he needs, the guy sits in the corner and mopes about for two years claiming verbal abuse. And he admits he can't quit because he doesn't have the technical skill to get a job anywhere else (Now that smells like he got the Wipro job through some inside help). Now he wants to know why people with less technical know-how are still working in the team lead. Maybe it is because those guys are willing to sit down and read up on stuff that they don't already know about and perhaps because they're paid less because they didn't lie about their skills in the interview phase.

This guy reminds me of a pair of DOOs I work with who came here based on a reco from another high level guy who got canned later. The DOOs were clearly lying about their level of oracle experience at the interview and honestly it won't be too long before my boss blows a fuse about their work skills. One DOO left for another place ( I think he sensed that his stock was rapidly falling) and the other is rapidly losing his shine.

Quoted the following for truth:

Vinay Syal , Canada , says: When the going was good most of the mediocre techies enjoyed and kept on getting the salaries even constituting the bench strength and this salary level was much higher than the normal salary structure in the country. And let us admit it most of these people never deserved the kind of salary they were getting. So why to blame these IT companies now. Now when the going is tough only the good people will survive so the good professionals need not worry. They will always be in demand whether within the country or outside the country. Class will be respected and required every where and any time.
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1335 hrs IST]

Renjith , Bangalore , says: I do agree that companies should give some time to the employees to find an alternative job..Employees when they find better oppertunities, when they find better salaries, they do jump right? Then what is wrong with the companies doing the same when they face a situation? One may argue that the company is laying off employees who are potentially loyal to the company..but in my view mainly all of them look for sub-standard performers and try to reduce their numbers..
[8 Apr, 2009 | 1334 hrs IST]

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 09 Apr 2009 12:21

sum wrote:Isnt the salary range same for Amriki MNCs also in the >8-10 yrs range due to smaller increments compared to Desi MNCs?

They may start off higher but by 8-10 years, isnt it all the same for Desi and Amriki?

150K pm is low for an American product company for the 8-10 years range. It will be more like 200-250K with high potential people getting 250-350K PM. Equivalent salaries in US for these positions will be 130K-200K/yr.

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Apr 2009 14:21

Meanwhile, the Chinese long march continues:
Link

Cosun purchases Freescale's cell phone chip business

Apr. 9, 2009 (China Knowledge) - Cosun has acquired the cell phone chip business of Freescale Semiconductor Holdings I, Ltd to obtain 3G and 4G technology patents, sources reported, citing an insider close to the situation.

Qiao Xing Mobile Communication Co Ltd<QXM>, a subsidiary of Cosun, has reached an agreement with Techfaith, which will provide WCDMA and EVDO solutions for 3G phones.

In September 2008, Rich Beyer, CEO of Freescale, announced that the company planned to sell its cell phone chip business.

According to the source, Wu Zhiyang, the chairman of Cosun, went to the U.S. to discuss the acquisition with Freescale, but the chairman's office did not give any detail regarding the visit.

Cosun currently has four research centers in Beijing, Shanghai, Huizhou and Shenzhen. The Beijing center mainly focuses on mobile phone R&D.

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Apr 2009 14:22

VikasRaina wrote:Sum, Are you sure people are getting ~60K with just 3-5 years of experience. Looks pretty high to me but then I maybe underestimating the salaries in Desh.

True...i didnt experience that

but i dont know of other cos...So, no comment!!!

150K pm is low for an American product company for the 8-10 years range. It will be more like 200-250K with high potential people getting 250-350K PM.

Wow....Thats a huge amount, if true..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2009 19:13

well there are plenty of techie people in product cos in the 20-30L bracket. and some in the 30+ too. however the 8-10 yr time mentioned is imo well below the median to earn
such salaries in a "normal" bideshi product co. I would think 10-20 is more like it.

stock fuelled bacanalian cos like google, yahoo(once upon a time) are the exceptions
than the rule. them hiring a handful IIT freshers at 10 lakhs/annum always ignite
media frenzy just like iim/isb ibanking salaries.

fewer people, much more per employee revenue vs services, but high r&d , marketing and customer training & support expenses ... there is always a tradeoff.

btw there are rumors that JNPR is planning a 17 day company shutdown this July.

CalvinH · Post by **CalvinH** » 09 Apr 2009 19:21

Singha wrote:the 'rise' (in designation, team size) in good times was so vertical there is simply no role or headroom for a lot of people to 'grow' within the org now. many were promoted well beyond their abilities because the co was growing fast or because they were chums/few offered 'services' to higher ups to secure their future.
these people have nowhere to run now - they cannot become hands on engineers or solution architects - they left being technical way back after a few yrs in the workforce and move to people and client management.

senior GIs will always have some value in product cos and generally the managers too
tend to be more technical although they are equally into nepotism and chummy politics often.

the services cos will have to trim down by 30% and freeze all hiring for a few years until
things settle down probably. chasing out exp people to replace with stipended freshers
will lead them further into disaster.

the indian fetish for chasing team size and designations as a mark of self-worth at its finest.

As usual great summary. I have seen people managing 2 promotions in 1.5 years by just being at the right place at the right time. If you are talented then your fast rise is assured. 8 years and 100 people under you..no issues.

But with resource driven models company keep adding people at the bottom with healthy sales and even if you dont do anything you keep moving up in a hierarchy as people below you keep on increasing. So it cant be helped unless you change the model.

All that is now being re-evaluated. Most valued company is currently undertaking a big role rationalisaton exercise to align roles and billability to experience. But it wont work unless you change the model.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2009 19:24

do services co change the billable per hour depending on the experience, reviews and certifications of the employees or is always a flat rate for the entire staff deployed at all levels on a project - ranging from freshers to old veterans?

most of the good ones among my UG batchmates from 1995 have 300-500 reports if
working in india since passing out. some went to IT side of big financial orgs abroad
and are VP-IS/IT. some here are running from pillar to post to become VPs by joining
smaller orgs. the bad ones are senior managers.

nobody seems to be really happy with their current status/designation and work.

current priorities seem to be bigger cars, bigger holidays, talking points like swiss watches or premium single malts, eating out at posh places, and putting in longer
hours at work to get ahead.

a lot of the men in my complex are never around before 8.30pm minimum.
some of them go to gym at night to work off all that stress. I am not aware how much
time they spend with kids or whether they have any other interest in life or read books
on any other topic but IT/management. some turn a bit religious and go to tirupati
every 6 months or read some yogic books.

on a BR scale of situational awareness they would top out at 2/10.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 09 Apr 2009 20:06

Singha wrote:do services co change the billable per hour depending on the experience, reviews and certifications of the employees or is always a flat rate for the entire staff deployed at all levels on a project - ranging from freshers to old veterans?

Typically a 2 or 3 tiered system. Trench level mujahids get billed at one rate, managers/specialists etc another. Archs, niche consultants will probably command industry rates. There won't be many of them anyway.

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Apr 2009 21:03

Well, Sriman-ji hit the "answer" button before i could...

I would think Sriman-ji is spot on..

nobody seems to be really happy with their current status/designation and work.

Is this a SDRE problem since i havent seen a single IT-vity techie being happy. Is it the same in Massa?

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 09 Apr 2009 21:32

sum wrote:
nobody seems to be really happy with their current status/designation and work.
Is this a SDRE problem since i havent seen a single IT-vity techie being happy. Is it the same in Massa?

This is my take and i think it definitely applies to service companies:

None of these companies recruit a lot of software (computer) engineers (To someone who asked in Nukkad dhaga a while ago: Software Engineering is definitely not an SDRE invention, it's a bonafide engineering discipline) and as a result there are fewer folks willing to pursue pure tech roles. During boom time when they were recruiting in thousands, they really struggled to recruit good quality computer engineers in huge numbers. Tier 1 colleges are picked clean by product cos and massa universities. Heck, during the heydays these companies were pariahs for computer engineering grads in tier 2 colleges. So they picked up a lot of people from other branches. People who were good at analysis, problem solving which us SDREs are good at. They code for a couple of years but a majority of them don't take to the tech side of life. Management stream seems pretty attractive given the growth people saw a few years ago. But there's only so much excel churning and PM giri you can do before it bores the hell out of you. This whole model as such is very taxing given the amount of BS one has to put up with in getting a project executed. Working across time zones, growing responsibilities, project management headaches take their toll. A couple of years down the line people find themselves with no appetite for this and feel hopelessly disconnected with the technology side to go back. Career growth rate is slow and you have a mid career crisis.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 09 Apr 2009 21:35

Singha wrote:well there are plenty of techie people in product cos in the 20-30L bracket. and some in the 30+ too. however the 8-10 yr time mentioned is imo well below the median to earn
such salaries in a "normal" bideshi product co. I would think 10-20 is more like it.

Yes, talking about just 8-10 years experience for product companies is not the whole story. In product companies, the payscale and career progression is not linear, plus it varies depending on whether the company wants to pay at the 90th percentile, the 50th percentile or somewhere in between.

sum wrote:
nobody seems to be really happy with their current status/designation and work.
Is this a SDRE problem since i havent seen a single IT-vity techie being happy. Is it the same in Massa?

Yes, it appears to be a SDRE problem. The heavy taxation in India and resultant lower pay compared to other non-salaried professions may have something to do with this. Here in the US, we often have to find creative ways of motivating people (desis included) after they start making about 200% of the median household income.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 09 Apr 2009 22:10

CalvinH wrote:Good times (typical IT services company)- Salaries mentioned are when you leave the band

0-1 year - trainee- 15K
1 year - 3 year - SW Engineer - 30K
3-5 Module Lead/SSE (team of 4) - 60K
5-7 Years - Project Manager (team 5-20) - 90K
7-9 Years - Senior Project Manager (team 20-50) - 110K
8- 10 Years Business Manager/Group Project Manager/Engagement Manager/Account Manager (team/account/projects - 100-150) - 150K

Average age when you reach the last level - 30 Years with just a BE degree. Lets talk about starting salary.

IMHO, very unsustainable pyramid.

Recently, I was at our firang HQ in Western Europe. There is a tussle going on in our org over sharing of portfolio elements among Indian and Eastern European delivery center. Please note Western Europe and North America are out of the debate...glorified sales offices they are.

Now, one challenge thrown to the Indian delegation was the billing rates of the engineering efforts. It was brought to our notice that our chaps in Hungary, Czech Rep., Romania and Poland were billed nearly as their Indian counterparts while East E retain the advantages like proximity to West European market. Plus it was pointed out that their structure does not permit such a fast movement up the hierarchy, hence cost factors is valid for a long period compared to ours.

However, what clinched the issue in our favor was the fact that team lead and up their cost was 4 - 5 times higher than ours.

The takeaway here is unless we rationalize our org structures in India we will begin to lose advantages of cost arbitrage.

Singha wrote:the 'rise' (in designation, team size) in good times was so vertical there is simply no role or headroom for a lot of people to 'grow' within the org now. many were promoted well beyond their abilities because the co was growing fast or because they were chums/few offered 'services' to higher ups to secure their future.
these people have nowhere to run now - they cannot become hands on engineers or solution architects - they left being technical way back after a few yrs in the workforce and move to people and client management.

senior GIs will always have some value in product cos and generally the managers too
tend to be more technical although they are equally into nepotism and chummy politics often.

the services cos will have to trim down by 30% and freeze all hiring for a few years until
things settle down probably. chasing out exp people to replace with stipended freshers
will lead them further into disaster.

the indian fetish for chasing team size and designations as a mark of self-worth at its finest.

Well said. What I see now is that the desi IT cos are hell bent on killing their own delivery competencies. That's a starter however.

They have not realized that their sorry situation is due to the fact they are totally dependent on overseas service industry market. These cos have never tried to do anything for local market nor have they tried to invest in R&D to create IP.

I and my team had it good this year and are safe for next 3 years because of the fact that we are sitting over some serious IP that seeing good business in APAC market.

Eshwar · Post by **Eshwar** » 09 Apr 2009 22:19

Sriman,

Stop this b*** s*** of "Hindu growth rate". I am amazed people who have been in BRF for such a long time still use such phrases. It is offending to say the least. You might feel cool strutting out such inane phrases, but trust me, it shows your utter lack of respect for your ancestors and what all they achieved.

*fuming*

I have fought with many people (including online news reporters) who think they are cool if they use this phrase. Please put a stop this utter non-sense. The original "Hindu rate of growth" is the actual commie rate of growth. The commies have successfully morphed it into this and "cool" people are trying to be "cool" using it.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 09 Apr 2009 22:24

^^ one of the correct phrases could be "Nehurvian rate of growth".

CalvinH · Post by **CalvinH** » 09 Apr 2009 23:13

SRoy wrote: IMHO, very unsustainable pyramid.

Not really. The idea is to keep the cost low at bottom and drive the seniors to take more responsibilities. Both works if

1. You have a tons of people minted out of engineering colleges every year
2. People are ready to slog out for growth

and both will be there for some time.

Now, one challenge thrown to the Indian delegation was the billing rates of the engineering efforts. It was brought to our notice that our chaps in Hungary, Czech Rep., Romania and Poland were billed nearly as their Indian counterparts while East E retain the advantages like proximity to West European market. Plus it was pointed out that their structure does not permit such a fast movement up the hierarchy, hence cost factors is valid for a long period compared to ours.

However, what clinched the issue in our favor was the fact that team lead and up their cost was 4 - 5 times higher than ours.

The takeaway here is unless we rationalize our org structures in India we will begin to lose advantages of cost arbitrage.

Cost arbitrage with East Europe is just for popular consumption and not a real threat. For specific scenarios it may be but east Europeans countries doesnt have the scale and without it you cant build maturity/breadth in service. If you look at the number and different type of technologies/tools/platform/processes/domains supported by Indian service companies they will be more then the total number of IT qualified east Europeans combined. What I mean is that you are a VP in a massa company and have an old application running for no issues for many years which suddenly start to show problem and now require one FTE to support it before they can work on replacing it with a cheaper solution. The company have support contract with large Indian IT service provider. all that VP has to do is to pick the phone and contact the AM. Someone will be onboard in a weeks time in offshore and will start delivering with Indian company taking total bottom line of the risk. That’s some flexibility which no other country can provide you at this time or will be able to build it in another 30 years (china being one exception)

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 09 Apr 2009 23:14

Eshwar wrote:Sriman,

Stop this b*** s*** of "Hindu growth rate". I am amazed people who have been in BRF for such a long time still use such phrases. It is offending to say the least. You might feel cool strutting out such inane phrases, but trust me, it shows your utter lack of respect for your ancestors and what all they achieved.

*fuming*

I have fought with many people (including online news reporters) who think they are cool if they use this phrase. Please put a stop this utter non-sense. The original "Hindu rate of growth" is the actual commie rate of growth. The commies have successfully morphed it into this and "cool" people are trying to be "cool" using it.

Fair enough. I apologize. Post edited.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 09 Apr 2009 23:31

CalvinH wrote: Not really. The idea is to keep the cost low at bottom and drive the seniors to take more responsibilities. Both works if

1. You have a tons of people minted out of engineering colleges every year
2. People are ready to slog out for growth

and both will be there for some time.

The challenge is to maintain a bottom layer i.e. engineering strength that sticks to tech work for a long time. this is problem in India at-least.

CalvinH wrote: Cost arbitrage with East Europe is just for popular consumption and not a real threat. For specific scenarios it may be but east Europeans countries doesnt have the scale and without it you cant build maturity/breadth in service. If you look at the number and different type of technologies/tools/platform/processes/domains supported by Indian service companies they will be more then the total number of IT qualified east Europeans combined. What I mean is that you are a VP in a massa company and have an old application running for no issues for many years which suddenly start to show problem and now require one FTE to support it before they can work on replacing it with a cheaper solution. The company have support contract with large Indian IT service provider. all that VP has to do is to pick the phone and contact the AM. Someone will be onboard in a weeks time in offshore and will start delivering with Indian company taking total bottom line of the risk. That’s some flexibility which no other country can provide you at this time or will be able to build it in another 30 years (china being one exception)

What you said is true. However, to add to the above...

>

But my problem is different here. We are actually effecting a TOT from Europe to India. It is their bread an butter, and money is not a big factor for high end tech. Its like a big bunch of goras will have their IPR snatched of the stuff they built over years. Frankly, they will be laid off in coming months. But its not easy for us either, the goras gone, we will be sharing the entire risk...from acquisition, investment, tracking ROI and local deployments.

To acknowledge where due, the goras have built competencies that cannot be replaced by volume/scale, but need to be painstakingly built up in India, with all the attendant risks.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 09 Apr 2009 23:41

sum wrote:Is this a SDRE problem since i havent seen a single IT-vity techie being happy. Is it the same in Massa?

Let me give my take on this. Having been a trench mujahid for a few years, I have seen and heard of this.

Firstly, during the boom times, mainly a couple of years ago, anybody going for campus interviews (I'm talking about the top 5-6 IT-vity companies here) was instructed to "recruit anyone with two hands, legs and a head". They needed volume and hoped that by going to well known colleges, quality would be forthcoming.

But since they recruited large number of people from other brances, who switched lines only due to the money and the 'prestige' (

) involved, they came into the industry. Such people had the sense of entitlement that Singha saar rails about. Expecting a promotion every 1.5-2 yrs, 15-20% at hike every revision etc. The companies were fine with a marginal hike and a barely ok process of promotion.

That apart, people do put in hours and hours of effort maybe cos they don't have anything else to do or cos their team is such that they start raising eyebrows if you leave early, a sense of peer pressure if you will. That plus having to appear to be hardworking to the manager who you rarely get to interact with regularly during your day. So your conduit to him is now your lead. So a good impression is required there and what way to get that but by putting in extra hrs.

Of course, the fact that there tends to be a lot of talk and time wasting during the day usually, especially since they're going to be at work till 7-8 PM, plays a big part in that sense of unhappiness.

So essentially, long hours where you don't quite work at full efficiency, having to pander to sensibilities everywhere and do not get what you think you deserve cos somebody else got it is why that unhappiness is seen. fwiw.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 10 Apr 2009 00:04

sum wrote:Is this a SDRE problem since i havent seen a single IT-vity techie being happy. Is it the same in Massa?

After few years in trenches, you realize that this train ain't going nowhere. Then the sense of no-achievement creeps in after initial rush of doing great stuff.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 10 Apr 2009 00:26

VikasRaina wrote:
sum wrote:Is this a SDRE problem since i havent seen a single IT-vity techie being happy. Is it the same in Massa?

After few years in trenches, you realize that this train ain't going nowhere. Then the sense of no-achievement creeps in after initial rush of doing great stuff.

It happens when one has not done any real work in the formative years in the first place. All of a sudden they realize they don't know enough (or nothing) about their domain, they are out of touch with latest technological advances.

Combine that with poor communication skills. No, I'm not talking about buttering bosses or creating flashy Powerpoint presentations.

I'm talking about ability to talk to customer and get business (without relying on MBA educated sales guys...useless @$$holes), the ability to reconcile diverse stakeholder interests (often at cross purposes).

There is always demand for top notch pre-sales and sales folks. There is always a demand for program manager, a certain breed of risk taking project managers that seem to rescue gone case projects from near death situations.

The mid career crisis emerges when one fails to or rather say is incapable of, of seeing beyond report headcounts.

>>

Then there of course is the case of real tech interest. How many desi techies do weekend work out of interest? Programming or even reading publications anyone? Are DSL lines only for downloading p o r n?

I usually have my weekends busy, tuning my dual boot Debian/FreeBSD laptop, working on a SIP app server in C++, and working on my sales presentations or drafting tender responses. Not all of them simultaneously of course.

Its rewarding.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 10 Apr 2009 03:25

SRoy wrote: Then there of course is the case of real tech interest. How many desi techies do weekend work out of interest? Programming or even reading publications anyone? Are DSL lines only for downloading p o r n?

I usually have my weekends busy, tuning my dual boot Debian/FreeBSD laptop, working on a SIP app server in C++, and working on my sales presentations or drafting tender responses. Not all of them simultaneously of course.

Its rewarding.

SRoy,

Nothing personal against you but what you mention above re. working on weekends is not necessarily the best thing. I prefer to finish all my work including learning (which actually is a bigger component of work for me since I work in a research lab) during the weekdays. As much as possible (currently > 99%), I keep my weekends for other personal interests. Somehow I do not agree that one has to be a techie 24/7 in order to succeed. OTOH I believe if one has other interests outside work, that leads to more productivity since it stimulates creativity and innovation. There has to be a life outside work. The other day I had a short argument with moi GHQ when I told her that one must have an identity outside work. You have to define your work not vice versa. Typically for desis we dont see this. If you ask someone to describe him/herself...one of the 1st things they will gambol about is about their work! I still go by my advisor's 1st warning to me when I had started my hakimiyat under him: "I dont want to see you working 12 hours a day and coming to the lab on weekends. If I see that, I will get the impression that you are either dumb or inefficient and will kick you out!"

Too often people who work late hours are the one with time management issues and the rest seem to be workaholics (not healthy at all!, I may be wrong).

Just imagine, once you reach old age and retire...when you look back, do you want to remember the hours you spent cooped up in front of a computer, or do you want to have some memories other than work. In the end its a personal choice.