MRCA News and Discussion

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Apr 2009 13:10

Please continue here

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johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 19 Apr 2009 15:00

I think the Rafale being out has a lot to do with the stalling of the Mirage 2000 deal as well. What about getting 50 odd Rafales for our Mirage 2000s, rather than going for an expensive MLU ? It will be a good deal if Dassault can take back the Mirage 2000s as well.

As for the MRCA this would let us select a single engined fighter like the Gripen or F 16 IN and to have a real high-lo mix.

Sajith_J · Post by **Sajith_J** » 19 Apr 2009 17:04

b_patel wrote:Is the Super Hornet the Front runner right now? And would the proposed Block III Super Hornet be available to India in the future if the chose the Block II model for the MRCA.

From a political view, yes! From IAF view, maybe.
Besides EF, F18SH is the only one who offers the same engine for LCA Mk2 and it's good in strikes and BVR combats. But how good will it be in combats against F16 and J10, specially WVR? Also compared to Mki with possible AESA radar in future, the only advantage would be a lower RCS and the electronic warfare capabilities of the Growler version (if we would get it).

Block III is possible maybe as an upgrade, something like the changes at F15 SE.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 19 Apr 2009 17:15

Rafales should have got a chance to prove in field trials,

the reason they are kicked out much earlier indicates foul play, specially when everyone knows what its capabilities are and the french air force is relying on that bird for another decade or more,.it will be unfair to say that they have no option, but the fact that they are pitching for many export orders proves that there is something good in that bird

Its potentials are well known and openly appreciated by all those who have experienced it besides Gripen and Ef.

Sure the decision is a political slippery and taken to suit some meanest interests
there should not be even a pinch of doubt that if the news is true then the contract is going to americans, but which ac? we HOPE that it will be f18, but there was a news not very long ago that usaf wants to phase out f16, ever wondered where those engines,screws ,nut bolts will be dumped into? if we think from a mindset of a babu, his mrca choice i(ncluding his personal profit and of some Choudrie,mukheree) will be the other single engined one.
it will be even more disastrous if F16 is selected, the results are well known
and after the mmrca contract is given to americans
pakis will soon go for rafales as they were considered earlier as an option besides J10,
and they will get money for it somehow, no doubt about that.

Keeping non upgraded mirage2k,f16, will be the last thing an airforce wll look for,as both will be useless & costly(in terms of usability against paf), leaving aside SU30 as the last good factor to rely upon,which may be subdued because of its large rcs value...
I wish IAF and MoD have still some good decision takers left with them, otherwise the way defence ministry acts in terms of acquisition and development is highly incompetitive

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Apr 2009 22:49

Rafale to pakis!? under what money? the akhans have soya bean orgs to deal with pakis, what does french have? also, note the akhans are the one we should deal with carefully. they are ought to provide pakis all they have got with a version that could hit our nerves where it hurt more, and perhaps will do to a certain extent.. the AAMs, UCAVs, abrhams etc. but, how are we to do this by antagonizing with the old friends.

France should make themselves happy with mirage upgrade and Kaveri deals. they might have to do a lot more hard work to stay on the curve for the market share. BTW, silently are the Russians are playing the perfect fiddle with our money, and developing their industries. [mig29k for example].

The faster we are on the path to MCA, the better is for IAF. Right now, none is clear and open. Though EF2K is more likely to be better positioned against Rafale's MMRCA loss, with least issues since they are pretty new to IAF's RFPs. They were also open to sharing the typhoon by participation rather [more to chew..].

Having Rafale out of race, the heat is on with Ef2K, SH to prove what they mean. Else, it would be all Mig35, F16 and Gripen chasing the requirements. Depending on how protectedly be open to our needs, the best that fits our bill matches.

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 20 Apr 2009 01:32

Besides EF, F18SH is the only one who offers the same engine for LCA Mk2 and it's good in strikes and BVR combats. But how good will it be in combats against F16 and J10, specially WVR? Also compared to Mki with possible AESA radar in future, the only advantage would be a lower RCS and the electronic warfare capabilities of the Growler version (if we would get it). Block III is possible maybe as an upgrade, something like the changes at F15 SE.

Well the SH wouldn't have to fight the F-16 or J10 in WVR, the APG-79 would detect the aircraft long before a WVR fight would happen and depending on the armament package India would receive I don't think it would have to worry about the Pakistani fighters in BVR. The US said that they would export the Growler Lite, which is basically the growler without the powerful jamming pods, I wonder if they would let us install Israeli jamming pods to essentially create a modified Growler?

I still consider the F-16 the dark horse of the competition. Too bad India couldn't wait a couple of more years LM would have offered the F-35.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Apr 2009 04:48

India WAS offered the F-35.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Apr 2009 04:49

LM has offered the F-16 and have stated that they can put into it enough 5th gen techs to make way for the F-35.

F-35 is not an issue at all, never was.

WRT the Growler, it was never in the picture - no mention of it.

On Rafale, yes anything is possible in India - including "foul play". However, anything is possible with the French too. The latest story was that it was a cost issue + lack of proper response to some technical questions. Is that possible - very possible. Everyone knows that the Rafale is a very capable plane, but in this case "capability" includes a few other things that could be viewed as "foul play".

Bhaskar · Post by **Bhaskar** » 20 Apr 2009 05:18

NRao wrote:India WAS offered the F-35.

As far as I know (and i might be wrong here) is that F-35 was never offered to India, it was a part of a tactic to sell the F-16's to India.
But, i don't think Lockheed Martin even offered the F-35 due to its lack of its availability before 2015. The IAF certainly couldnt wait that long, though the F-35's would have served the IAF's purpose the best...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Apr 2009 05:47

well, the only response to not to offer f-35 was the "deal time".. hence, either we have to postpone mmrca contract (100% likely), or cancel and re issue a fresh RFI. That way, we have only three contenders be able to furnish to RFI. Its our fault, to have accepted so many a/cs for the bidding.

its a pain for both the supplier and IAF to sort from 6 contending suppliers.

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 20 Apr 2009 09:46

WRT the Growler, it was never in the picture - no mention of it

The Growler kinda is in the picture just like the F-35 is in the picture for the Block 70 viper. Boeing said that they would be more than willing to allow export of the Growler Lite which is the Growler w/out the Jamming pods as the US refuses to sell them to anyone. I don't know If the US would have a problem with India putting on its own jamming pods or having Israel replace whatever the US takes out. A dedicated EW aircraft would be a huge asset if war broke out between India and Pakistan.

pankaj · Post by **pankaj** » 20 Apr 2009 13:28

Indian Air Force says Rafale still in fighter competition
By Siva Govindasamy
The Indian Air Force has denied reports that the Dassault Rafale has been eliminated from the country’s medium multi-role combat aircraft competition.

“We have not ruled anyone out yet in the MMRCA competition,” says an IAF spokesman, who confirmed that the service is responsible for evaluating the contenders. “All of the tests have not been completed. The technical evaluations are only just over and we are scheduled to begin the flight tests next month. Everyone is still in the competition.”

Last week, several Indian newspapers reported that the Rafale was eliminated after failing the technical evaluation. When contacted, Dassault said that it is waiting for information from the French embassy in India as negotiations are conducted on a government-to-government basis. The embassy had no comment.

The aircraft was not brought to the Aero India 2009 show in Bangalore in February, leading to speculation that it was in danger of being eliminated from the competition. A senior French official, however, defended the no-show at the time saying that the country’s aircraft were required for NATO operations in Afghanistan.

Apart from the Rafale (above), the other five contenders for the $10-12 billion contract are the Boeing F/A-18E/F, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16, RSK MiG-35, and Saab Gripen. India is scheduled to begin hot weather trials in May, and the aircraft will be tested in cold weather and humid conditions later in the year.

This is not the first time that the Indian media have reported that an aircraft has been eliminated from this closely watched competition. Early this year, it was reported that the Gripen had been knocked out but this was later proven untrue.

India is seeking 126 aircraft in the competition, of which 18 will be bought in fly-away condition and 108 license produced by Hindustan Aeronautics in the country. There is also an option for another 64 aircraft. The fighter chosen will replace the IAF’s RSK MiG-21s.
(http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ition.html)

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 20 Apr 2009 13:36

so all the

was for nothing

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 20 Apr 2009 13:40

Nitesh wrote:so all the was for nothing

Talk about a waste of time for the members of this thread. Finally when things show a sign of moving towards an end, we end up back where we started.

This is why defence reporting in India is called DDM.

Anybody with money can get anything they want published or presented on TV as if it were the holy truth.

All in all it causes a F***ing waste of time and energy on this forum and we still end up on page 1!!!!

-Vivek

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 20 Apr 2009 13:41

pankaj wrote:Indian Air Force says Rafale still in fighter competition

Me really HAPPY.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 20 Apr 2009 13:43

I guess this was a Psy-operation from Indian Media.. Don't know under whose guidance... If this news is true, that is..

Geez, it is difficult to ascertain which version of "truth" reported by media is actually true...

hehehe.. And the fun part is DDM blew this whole issue out of proportion without even a single official statement either from Indian MoD and/or Dassault...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Apr 2009 13:45

This was not a psy op from the "Indian media",what does it seriously know or care about defence? This was a "scoop" given to the Indian media by a competitor who wanted to embarass the Rafale very much.I am convinced that the dis-information op came from Langley on behalf of the US twins.Expect even more such stories floated in the media this year.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 20 Apr 2009 14:03

Chiron wrote:hehehe.. And the fun part is DDM blew this whole issue out of proportion without even a single official statement either from Indian MoD and/or Dassault...

Rumors and inputs from "sources" met during bar visits are more than enough for "Investigative journalists" in India. Reality and Official statements are irritants that are ignored or brushed aside since they upset the spice of the story.

So, does that mean this thread is back to, like ten pages ago?

-Vivek

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 20 Apr 2009 14:28

What a joke this competiton is and all the corrupt journalists and unnamed sources in the mod.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 20 Apr 2009 14:46

No surprises here! The same thing had happened to Gripen but at a much smaller scale. I only hope that the competitor with the best aircraft and ToT wins.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 20 Apr 2009 14:52

A krish wrote:No surprises here! The same thing had happened to Gripen but at a much smaller scale. I only hope that the competitor with the best aircraft and ToT wins.

At this point I just hope the competition ends any way it can and we start inducting fighters in. The term "ridiculous" is also now obsolete as far as its application here is concerned...

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 20 Apr 2009 14:56

Wheeew !
I'm happy to have been able to hold my mouth until this

In the end, I note that (anglo-saxon) Reuters has been the first "serious" news agency to relay the new from your local paper and its unnamed source, and that this rumor has given room to much more ruckus than the previous one on Gripen... strange thing, huh ? (but I may be paranoïd

)

On the other hand, I wouldn't completely rule out that action from being a serious warning of your ministry to Dassault.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 20 Apr 2009 15:03

I've had it with DDM , only trusting authorized quoted from MoD from now on

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 20 Apr 2009 15:10

Nihat wrote:I've had it with DDM , only trusting authorized quoted from MoD from now on

Get in line, buddy. There's about a hundred people ahead of you at the moment...

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 20 Apr 2009 15:25

I had a funny feeling all along from the beginning that this would all turn out to be a case of DDMities.

It was very unlikely that an aircraft could be eliminated on technical grounds just on the basis of specsheet evaluation, even before flight testing began. So it is all back to square one. And now await reports and inspired leaks from the test ranges...

Abhishek Banerjee · Post by **Abhishek Banerjee** » 20 Apr 2009 15:27

this is becoming a joke. Your in , your out make up your mind.
for the last 3 to 4 years, nothing has progress substantially on the MRCA front except wasting BR bandwidth.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 20 Apr 2009 16:47

Jean_M wrote:Wheeew !
On the other hand, I wouldn't completely rule out that action from being a serious warning of your ministry to Dassault.

Makes me feel the same, otherwise why did the IAF/MoD did not deny the news quickly. The story went on for a week I guess.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Apr 2009 18:40

b_patel wrote:
WRT the Growler, it was never in the picture - no mention of it
The Growler kinda is in the picture just like the F-35 is in the picture for the Block 70 viper. Boeing said that they would be more than willing to allow export of the Growler Lite which is the Growler w/out the Jamming pods as the US refuses to sell them to anyone. I don't know If the US would have a problem with India putting on its own jamming pods or having Israel replace whatever the US takes out. A dedicated EW aircraft would be a huge asset if war broke out between India and Pakistan.

Patelji,

Two things:
1) Do you have a link for the Growler topic? I have googled my heart out and perhaps am making some funda mistake. TIA
2) F-35 was "offered" TWICE. The first time when Uncle George was the DM - this predates the current MRCA effort. The second "offer" was in in line with the F-16, more as an enticement to buy the F-16. The first time it was a stand alone offer, now with MRCA it is an "upgrade" of sorts - the theory being that the offered F-16 will have a lot in common with teh F-35. So, the F-35 is not "kinda" in the picture. India reected the first offer out right. Will have to wait for the second one.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Apr 2009 18:44

Bhaskar wrote:
NRao wrote:India WAS offered the F-35.
As far as I know (and i might be wrong here) is that F-35 was never offered to India, it was a part of a tactic to sell the F-16's to India.
But, i don't think Lockheed Martin even offered the F-35 due to its lack of its availability before 2015. The IAF certainly couldnt wait that long, though the F-35's would have served the IAF's purpose the best...

Sorry did not see your post earlier. See above.

However, WRT availability, IIRC, India would have got her first F-35 in 2021-25. But, I do not think that was the issue. And, IF that is THE issue, then the offer to provide F-16s with a lot of techs from the F-35 should make India happy. India would then have (hopefully) a 5th gen in FGFA and a 4.75 Gen in the MRCA (assuming F-16) and F-35MKI - all by mid-2020s.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Apr 2009 18:47

Patelji,

Found it.

AERO INDIA: Boeing reveals plans for 'Growler Lite'

The strategy would prevent jammer pod releasibility issues from holding up incremental EA-18G export sales to Super Hornet customers. The USA's next-generation jammer is not expected to become operational until around the middle of the next decade. The ALQ-99 tactical jamming pod which equips the US Navy's Super Hornets is no longer in production.

Nothing to do with any nation it looks like, they just do not have a jammer right now.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Apr 2009 19:00

The F-35 is already embroiled in controbersy as beiong less capable and higely more expensive than many 4th-gen foighters and with our 5th-gen fighter project on stream,there is no way that we will buy it.The US is refusing to give even Britain its closest ally its technology!

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 20 Apr 2009 19:43

Cost and Performances of MiG-35 is better then others
Can some one break my illusion

In this forum,We always talk abt these amreeke and europian fighters
Why not our all seasons' friend

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 20 Apr 2009 19:48

Indian Air Force says Rafale still in fighter competition

“We have not ruled anyone out yet in the MMRCA competition,” says an IAF spokesman, who confirmed that the service is responsible for evaluating the contenders. “All of the tests have not been completed. The technical evaluations are only just over and we are scheduled to begin the flight tests next month. Everyone is still in the competition.”

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 20 Apr 2009 20:29

Jamal K. Malik wrote:Cost and Performances of MiG-35 is better then others
Can some one break my illusion
In this forum,We always talk abt these amreeke and europian fighters
Why not our all seasons' friend

Though even I feel there is a bias against Mig-35 in this forum, I kind of understand why. A major reason is that people are sceptical of Russia. They have been leeching on us form quite some time. Another factor may be that, unlike other contenders, no one knows full potential of Mig-35. It is still somewhat in development. It has not been tested like the others. Also there is a lot of speculation about its capabilities. You will always find different specs of it on different sites.
Though aside all this, even my favourite choice for MRCA next to Rafale is Mig-35. But it is basically due to my paranoia with Unkill and also because I personally doubt Eurofighter's a2g capability.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Apr 2009 20:39

Philipji,

The F-35 was rejected by the previous govt, even BEFORE this controversy arose.

The ONLY way the IAF will look at such a plane is IF the IAF is allowed to modify it to IAF's recs.

WRT the UK, it was my understanding that the US is reluctant to provide ToT of some techs and not provide the the techs.

One the Rafael,

Boy, someone forgot to tell everyone that they are on the same team. Now that there literally are sides to this story, this can only get worse from here. One will try and outdo the other - India ishtyle.

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 20 Apr 2009 22:02

Cost and Performances of MiG-35 is better then others
Can some one break my illusion
In this forum,We always talk abt these amreeke and europian fighters
Why not our all seasons' friend

Cost wise the Mig-35 is better than the others, well right now it is but come negotiation time i doubt the price would stay the same, Russian would probably jack it up.
Performance wise it is not as capable as my fav the EF

in the A2A role. Its not as capable as the Super Hornet in the A2G role. To me its a lesser version of the Rafale.

The ONLY way the IAF will look at such a plane is IF the IAF is allowed to modify it to IAF's recs.

If the Pak-fa prototype does not fly this year or early next year I think the IAF might take another good look at the F-35. The IN would love the STOVL version, perfect for the carriers.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 20 Apr 2009 22:02

super hornet or f16 will win the contract
no one can stop them
except elections

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 20 Apr 2009 22:11

b_patel wrote: Cost wise the Mig-35 is better than the others, well right now it is but come negotiation time i doubt the price would stay the same, Russian would probably jack it up.
Performance wise it is not as capable as my fav the EF in the A2A role. Its not as capable as the Super Hornet in the A2G role. To me its a lesser version of the Rafale.

I thing it would be wrong to underestimate a2a capability of Mig-35. Mig-29 is a pretty agile a/c, and with thrust vectoring, it may well surpass EF. But then again, I guess a2g capability would be the highest priority for any MRCA contender, so the a2a capability of EF and Mig-35 may not count for much.

Bhaskar · Post by **Bhaskar** » 20 Apr 2009 22:19

RAFLAE IS BACK... MRCA is a big joke...

I suggest instead of getting into all this controversy , we should wait for a couple or 3 to 4 years and just get the F-35's ... Because , we are simply back to where we started, no progress in 2 years... What a joke...
and what i hate the most is all the time i wasted in this forum after Rafale was eliminated... i wasted all that time

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 20 Apr 2009 22:41

This is crazy. We are spoiling our own already-spoilt reputation in defence acquisitions. I am not sure whether the initial press reports about "a source in the MoD" was interpreted to be "Defence Spokesman" (which is much more official) by later reports. Or was it a case of overzealous press? I'm sure there can be no smoke without any fire, and there has to be some official talking unauthorized (truth or not, we cant know). PLUS why was there a two day delay in confirmation ???? What happens to Rafale's reputation now that the story has been published from ToI to Wall Street Journal??
Responsibility should be fixed in the MoD.