Indian IT Industry

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Apr 2009 13:08

any why would you call it a commodity play? with millions of win servers and apps lying around,
there is massive inertia in paying anyone to "port" the apps from win to anything else. people
will want to keep their costly apps - esp enterprises, tools, knowledge base intact. so win server will reside as a VM.

being a VM there is potential for huge sales in the cloud, because most enterprises would rent
dedicated space on the cloud.

when virtual desktops become popular, then even the desktop "longhorn" and such can be
cloud resident and provide the same desktop to the user anywhere, be it a netbook or thin
client.

the OS and Office part of MS is not going away in my lifetime atleast.

vina · Post by **vina** » 24 Apr 2009 13:58

Neela wrote:Vina saar, I see major issues with the above model. OSs need memory. And people want speed! Maybe the docking station will take over when the device is plugged in but then you are back to the present!

You didn't read my post carefully. I picked the Nano example for a purpose. Today, most systems are bloated with un needed features, support huge amount of legacy, have oodles of total waste and hence the equivalent blot in hardware and memory. You need a clean slate design like Nano and you can get far better bang out of the buck for cheaper /smaller (processor, memory and power) , just like Nano over M800. I would think the docking station will have a power connector and screen and key board and if needed a hard disk if you need more memory. But the processor, OS and RAM can be in the mobile device.

For eg, I have a Core 2 duo machine at home with a 512 MB Nvidia graphics card and close to 3 GB of memory. I bought Windows Vista and Mickey Soft in all it's wisdom sells the 32bit version onree in retail and you have to ask them to "mail the media" with 64bit (shipping charges onree thank you, but other than that "free"). Point is most systems today , atleast for a typical home user (server scene is different), simply cannot use the full capabilities of a 64bit system (I have 64bit Ubuntu in another partition) !. So it is largely wasted and most legacy drivers wont work on 64bit!. A stripped down system from Mickey Soft wont cut it and a brand new OS from ground up will have no competitive advantage!. For a typical user, buying a 64bit system is massive overkill. It is simply not needed. Maybe a 16bit system is what we actually need today on the desk top/laptop if we need small form factor, low power etc. Maybe 'minaturiazation" in the broader sense is the way out.. Just thinking..dunno.

vina wrote:Still hard to beat Windows. The moment you want a little bit more,(whatver it may be) you will hit a wall
- Device integration
- Driver support
- Time taken to get things up and running.

Remember, companies are built around MS OS.
Try getting your Creative 5.1 speakers or Logitech Webcam working with a Ubuntu 8.1 laptop. Both companies are giants in their domains. Yet when it comes to Linux support, they will telly you that its a nightmare

These are legacy issues. Try running a legacy 32 bit driver for Creative 5.1or Logitech on your 64bit Vista!. The problem is the same. Maybe that is why Vista faced the problems it did. For "new" markets, it really is too much of a pain and is not worth it and there are better alternatives around.

MS is like the the viswaroopam of Maha Vishnu. Everyone will run to it in life and death! The other gods are lesser mortals!

IBM was Maha Maha Vishwa Roopam from 1948 to 1985 or so, longer than Mickey Soft has been in that avatar. But IBM's time too did pass, and so will Mickey Soft. Law of Nature onree.

vina · Post by **vina** » 24 Apr 2009 14:07

Singha wrote:any why would you call it a commodity play? with millions of win servers and apps lying around,

Because, it will be no different from any other and in the absence of any exit barriers like today, cant prevent anyone from calling an exact similar app /functionally equivalent app of Linux/Solaris/whatever unlike today. So no Economic Profits..hence commodity.

there is massive inertia in paying anyone to "port" the apps from win to anything else. people
will want to keep their costly apps - esp enterprises, tools, knowledge base intact. so win server will reside as a VM

Until 1985 or so, every significant "app" in the world was on an IBM Machine , either mainframe or midrange or whatever. Now they are a quaint niche. Same with Mickey Soft, 20 years from now if their core franchise is penetrated and they become "standardized" under a cloud and no longer proprietary . They will lose the new business going forward to other platforms, just like IBM did starting with Client/Server

the OS and Office part of MS is not going away in my lifetime atleast.

Nor will IBM which started I think as OS/VS/ and then MVS and today probably as zOS. Similar thing with Windoze.. Maybe 20 years from now, we will have a quaint running legacy apps on a cloud called Windows Z20 running some MS SQL and other stuff which only 55 yr + programmers know anything about and are increasingly an endangered species who will become extinct after they die out and are getting outsourced to Nigeria where hungry young uns are willing to work for cents to a dollar and hungry enough to go learn up the old stuff and take up work which is "too dangerous, dull and drudging" for others

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Apr 2009 14:12

vina wrote:Linux , and now upcoming Android , Symbian etc migrating to Netbooks and then dissolving the barrier between PCs and Phones (something MickeySoft can NEVER EVER DO with the bloated Windoze, and if they develop a brand new OS, then they are toast anyway, coz they will have no competitive advantage) , makes Mickey Soft's future beyond the next 5 years , when the current systems come up for replacement very cloudy indeed.

Count more on Linux/Maemo/Android types penetrating that segment....Symbian has big issues and a long tail to get rid of before it can migrate to Netbook segment. Mickey Soft does have their smart phone OS, Windows Mobile - not very good but still it does exist. BTW they are developing a brand new OS with the grand aim of something similar to what you speak - whether they succeed is another q. Even as of last year they were way behind.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Apr 2009 14:17

vina wrote: I think the key to crack the "display" and " user interface" problems between PC/Notebook and phones is to recognize that they are different . They are east and west and the twain can never meet. But what can converge is the hardware and the OS. So there you have it . A "portable shell" which has power connectors a screen and a key board with mouse , into which a full featured phone (with best UI comparable to a stand alone phone) and when plugged into the "shell" becomes a full featured laptop with additional memory /hard disk in case it is needed and it is expensive to build that into a phone with small form factor. With this, other high cost item after the screen in a lap top , ie the LiOn battery can be taken out and shared with the phone. What you will have to give up is 4 or 6 hrs on battery use. i seriously doubt if anyone uses their laptops for more than 1hr in most cases (other than playing DVDs in non stop NY to LA/SF kind of flights) for such uses.

Celio REDFLY, Smartphone terminal

vina, These folks tried (http://www.celiocorp.com/)and till now they have failed miserably....lot of research being done in this concept and many companies moving into this. Take a sneak peek at something like the N97 and one can get a feel of whats is going on but its far from reaching the goal. UX is the key and till now, the killer. Hint, think display technologies (and to a small extent haptics)

vina · Post by **vina** » 24 Apr 2009 14:46

Raja Bose wrote:Celio REDFLY, Smartphone terminal

vina, These folks tried (http://www.celiocorp.com/)and till now they have failed miserably....lot of research being done in this concept and many companies moving into this. Take a sneak peek at something like the N97 and one can get a feel of whats is going on but its far from reaching the goal. UX is the key and till now, the killer. Hint, think display technologies (and to a small extent haptics)

Yeah . Hakim Saab. I think this is the way to go. REDFLY is probably ahead of it's time. The problem is that the pieces are not there yet for it to work, especially in the corporate market they are targeting at. Think of it, even Blackberry, the killer 'enterprise mobile' app is used largely and exclusively for e-mail. How many people dare open a 3 MB word or office attachment on a Windows Mobile and actually use it. The phones, networks and enterprise apps are not ready.

What will be needed I think is primarily a full featured normal "phone" with ability to run most desk top apps (word rpocessor, spread sheet and presentation ) and maybe a ERP from a server few custom apps natively fine and the ability to be like fish in water in the office LAN/WiFi . Basically a convergence of the desktop/laptop, office telephone and data networks , along with seamless access to public data and voice networks if needed/when out of office network into one small device with the UI for large screen and date entry via a plug in device.

For this vision, I would put my bets more on the mobile guys trying to gate crash into the PC market or rank outsiders like Google or a company like Apple with a history of thinking outside the box and executing strongly with new form factors in convergence (iPod, iPhone etc), pulling it off successfully than old lizes like Mickey Soft and Yechh Pee (their hand helds on Mickesoft Mobile were pathetic).

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 24 Apr 2009 14:51

http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-wo ... ey-sun-517

Ten ways Oracle could make money from Sun
"Consolidation" will be the watchword as Oracle absorbs Sun Microsystems, but it shouldn't ignore the plum technologies in Sun's portfolio

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 24 Apr 2009 16:22

krishnan wrote:http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-wo ... ey-sun-517

Ten ways Oracle could make money from Sun
"Consolidation" will be the watchword as Oracle absorbs Sun Microsystems, but it shouldn't ignore the plum technologies in Sun's portfolio

From the above:

. Unbreakable MySQL. Under Sun's stewardship, the MySQL community has fractured amid reports of buggy releases and an exodus of former employees. Oracle needs to grab the reins and shore up MySQL's position as its new, entry-level database for departments, software developers, and Web apps. Make InnoDB the standard table type, give the code a thorough quality review, and let the industry know that it can forget about the other guys because the new MySQL is a rock-solid database backed by the full faith and support of Oracle. Oh yeah, and it's still free.

Thats the way to go about it. I mentioned this before; there is no way Oracle will drop MySQL.

But Oracle will have to keep this open source. They do not have a choice. There are reasons for this:
* By making it proprietary, they risk antagonizing the Open source community who will then rush to create a Open Source DB for the masses. The last thing you need is another DB.
* MySQL does not challenge the established order. It has been there for years and it widespread deployment is a mark of its success in its own space. Why bother upsetting this. Development belongs to Oracle. Develop interoperability and throw in the support contracts.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Apr 2009 19:03

I think MSFT should buy a cloud specialist like savvis or better salesforce.com or even
seek a merger with amazon's cloud arm.

they will have much closer customer interaction and be able to tailor products to this
new segment.

it will certainly be a better investment than zune, msn, search etc

they shouldnt be hung up on ego over search & google. let it go - adapt, learn from a
frog if need be, survive, sharpen the sword....just like ge/ibm/hp have done over decades.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Apr 2009 22:40

vina wrote:I think this is the way to go. REDFLY is probably ahead of it's time. The problem is that the pieces are not there yet for it to work, especially in the corporate market they are targeting at.

Actually they failed because their design sucks

....even if the phone has full fledged office suite capability. It looks good on paper and is in line with what one thinks should be the ideal but reality dictates otherwise. Only when one uses it, it becomes evident what are the design issues (not specific to REDFLY but more in the concept itself) incld. some one would never think of, how jarring is the difference (such as think how the UIs are tailored differently, inherent assumptions about UX etc.)....some serious OOB thinking required here otherwise zimbly hooking phone to a larger display and keyboard (even if phone has juice to run all apps) will be like hitching the Habib Sitara to Abdul Chacha's donkey Pervez.....gives better performance than before but will also drive away all potential customers who previously either wanted to buy a Sitara or a donkey.

Here is something from YouTube re. this concept:

Added Later: AoA! vina and moi have the same post count

Mine mostly thru posts on BENIS-like dhaagas and vina's mostly thru wise predictions in economy dhaagas

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 24 Apr 2009 22:59

Singha wrote: the OS and Office part of MS is not going away in my lifetime atleast.

once MS Office Web edition (internal version no. is office 14) rolls out OS market for workstations and home computers will be history.

how does it matter to anyone which OS they are running when they are going to spend their entire work routine inside Firefox or Opera?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Apr 2009 06:43

when everyone has 'decent' broadband links yes - but a lot of people do not for
forseeable future.

and there would have to be a massive change cycle in enterprises over a decade to
replace full featured desktops with thin machines and virtual desktops. take lot of time
and money. one set of support cost replaced with another - all those virtual machines
still need to be patched and maintained with remote tools, just as desktops are today.

one thing is sure - IT support staff will always be busy no matter who wins!

bala · Post by **bala** » 25 Apr 2009 10:02

Mickey Soft stumbling is a sign of things changing. The status quo needs a shakeup. For a long time Mickey Soft was coasting on monopoly without innovation. They resorted to ruthless market share capture. With Office it was a rampage on the competition companies like Excel, Powerpoint, Word, etc. Times catch up in mysterious ways.

Oracle's buyout of Sun is interesting. Oracle wanted to own OS/DB/applications for a long time, maybe now they have a decent chance. Will see how this plays out. The hardware business of Sun is an unknown for Oracle. They may spin this division or sell it to someone.

Talking about new technology and new ideas check this out from MIT media lab, courtesy IITB Grad..

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/patt ... sense.html

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 25 Apr 2009 10:55

Singha wrote:when everyone has 'decent' broadband links yes - but a lot of people do not for
forseeable future.

and there would have to be a massive change cycle in enterprises over a decade to
replace full featured desktops with thin machines and virtual desktops. take lot of time
and money. one set of support cost replaced with another - all those virtual machines
still need to be patched and maintained with remote tools, just as desktops are today.

one thing is sure - IT support staff will always be busy no matter who wins!

a significant, yet not noticed by many, event is that MS has released the specs for office document file formats. expect openoffice to close the gap quickly...good for home users, techie ones. MS is certainly betting on the cloud. Windows 7 maybe the last of its type.

is it a coincidence that that .NET and Silverlight alternatives are emerging with full support from MS (their agreements with Novell)? hopefully this will ensure that legions of MS customers and developers will be able be able to take their apps and data to other platfroms while using MS office.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Apr 2009 10:58

does anyone know if any non-search part of google makes a profit?

android would I suppose once it picks up volume...

MSFT is going to have to cut short its russia caspian-to-lake_lagoga campaign, pull back
and tighten its defensive lines...and might have to make hard decisions like abandoning
cut off garrisons like zune or msn or any number of other initiatives.

they need to focus imo on a core area or three like web based apps, web infra,
server OS techs, virtual desktops and ofcourse Office.

a lot of generals like von bock and guderian who lived in the field did advise the
chamchas like kietel and jodl and fuhrer himself on this, but it was not taken.
with bad results.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Apr 2009 11:57

Singha wrote:does anyone know if any non-search part of google makes a profit?

Google makes most of its money from ads. The revenue from other products is quite minimal till now. Their strategy currently seems to be, basically use everything else they got to herd people into their ads. The way they do it is ruthless ofcourse....they give away quality stuff for free, what other companies sell to earn their livelihood

. How do you undercut something which is free?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Apr 2009 11:59

bala wrote: Talking about new technology and new ideas check this out from MIT media lab, courtesy IITB Grad..

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/patt ... sense.html

Considering how even now IIT undergrads look down their noses on IIT Mtechs (Mendhaks or whatever they call 'em now)....not fair for IIT to associate its name with a lowly Mtech when he finally earns kudos elsewhere

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Apr 2009 20:55

a lot of IIT undergrads have for some time been good for the hype factor, mba and google onree.

my co hired 700 MS students last year and hardly a few are from the exalted "top10" univs with
iit background. most of the newcomers I interact with are very good at their work. there's
diff between exam taking bright and being useful/EQ/team player/willing to learn from others.

neither they want to work in india for anything by mba payscales nor they want to work anywhere
in massa but in get-rich-quick startups/bschool.

one can open a prep 2 yr classes in IIM campuses and shut the UG program down and the
country wouldnt feel any difference.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 26 Apr 2009 10:44

^^
When I entered the industry (that's a long time ago), my mentor and project manager used to be a desi M.Sc. Physics chap, and I used to work with a Dutch gent, who used to design main-boards for our products. The Dutch gent had his background in liberal arts, but he taught me to write industry grade assembly code.

Late in career, i.e. very recent, two of my best system architects consists of a desi B.Sc. electronics and an Aussie vet science grad.

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 27 Apr 2009 20:59

Sorry if OT, but couldn't figure which thread is better for the question.

Have any of you actually come across the use of VMWare products in an actual production IT environment? The technology looks cool, but is it a flash in the pan or genuine wave of the future?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Apr 2009 22:02

they have a huge customer base in big enterprise. netzilla uses it internally for sure. its also a enabling tech
for cloud.
you want a feel for it, download virtualbox.com sw onto your home PC, take a linux or windows install CD
and install it onto a VM. very soon u will have multiple VMs in parallel running nicely to play with.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 28 Apr 2009 10:00

Nandu wrote:Sorry if OT, but couldn't figure which thread is better for the question.

Have any of you actually come across the use of VMWare products in an actual production IT environment? The technology looks cool, but is it a flash in the pan or genuine wave of the future?

They are used quite extensively and are pretty good. I use their VMWare Fusion for personal use also.

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 28 Apr 2009 21:04

Nandu wrote:Sorry if OT, but couldn't figure which thread is better for the question.

Have any of you actually come across the use of VMWare products in an actual production IT environment? The technology looks cool, but is it a flash in the pan or genuine wave of the future?

For what it is worth Big Co (shall remain nameless) does not use VMware for running prod apps. But is used extensively for crash and burn servers for groups to do initial dev on.. My own exp has been jsut ok.. Not rock solid yet to use in MC or Prod enviroments mainly becuase they bog down with heavy use.

suvod · Post by **suvod** » 28 Apr 2009 22:05

In my earlier IT engagement for a metals company, we were using vmware to host the dev and qa application servers of non-enterprise level applications. we were running different versions of rhl as on intel boxes. and have seen a general shift in the industry at large towards virtual systems. this has been driven by the fact that data centers (in the US at least) are grossly underutilized, when it comes to server capacity.

came to know while writing a proposal that ibm-aix has native virtualization, and all other os vendors are working towards developing some sort of in-built virtualization. even oracle is working on its own virtualization product.

IMO, vm will become the norm rather than being the exception due to cost-cutting measures in internal IT for all companies.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2009 22:23

x86_64 xeon and amd processors have had hardware support for virt for a couple years atleast under the names "vanderpool" and "pacifica" respectively. nehalem is not the first one. there is a flag name in /proc/cpuinfo that indicates the support.

every modern virt product out there makes use of the vanderpool/pacifica.

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 29 Apr 2009 05:51

Thanks for the replies, folks. I am interviewing at VMW this week. Hopefully the info you gave will come in useful.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Apr 2009 06:44

welcome to vCloud .... good luck for the interview. you can read up this link to get a sense of how hw virtualization works.
http://it.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.aspx?i=3263

and vmware's own binary translation tech by two of their own engineers
www.vmware.com/pdf/asplos235_adams.pdf

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 29 Apr 2009 07:34

Nandu wrote:Thanks for the replies, folks. I am interviewing at VMW this week. Hopefully the info you gave will come in useful.

Goot Luck! I will sacrifice a few goats to please Allah so that he may turn the minds of the interviewers and make them appreciative of your beard (though, please remember to dress in Talib-approved ankle-baring shalwar onlee!)!

VmWare interviews for the bacchas like me just out of univ. are basically deep systems type with interviewer poking to see how much in-depth knowledge fella has about OS and underthings, which civilized users of computers don't usually poke their noses in. One can usually expect interviewers to provide orgasmic description of how cool virtualization is, ityadi.

For higher-level posts, no idea!

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 29 Apr 2009 14:13

End game for Nortel,
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Business/g ... story.html

I think the Indian operations at Nortel dont know what is coming since they are not technically in Chapter 11. Might be a rude shock for them...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Apr 2009 14:29

the dev center in blr has outplaced some employees to one of their local partners (cant recall the name).
INFY/TCS NT account has also suffered badly I am sure.

people will have seen the trend and responded.

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Apr 2009 20:01

Even our co closed down its dev center here on Friday and let go of all employees except small HW team (ours) and Sales....

However, the are helping out with outplacement and gave a decent severance meaning not many are too depressed...

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 29 Apr 2009 20:40

Nandu wrote:Sorry if OT, but couldn't figure which thread is better for the question.

Have any of you actually come across the use of VMWare products in an actual production IT environment? The technology looks cool, but is it a flash in the pan or genuine wave of the future?

Haven't come across personally ... but here's a list of customers using VMWARE (from their own website)

http://www.vmware.com/a/customers/customer/

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Apr 2009 11:06

yahoo-idc reduced by 60 yesterday. some teams have been dissolved, some people internally moved.

Sum, how many were let go ? all SW teams gone?

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Apr 2009 13:43

Yup....
Amirkhan fired Daisy cutters finished all signs of life in Bangalore, Kerala!!!

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 01 May 2009 06:56

bhailog, I am graduating soon with yum yes .... no job

any suggestions??

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 May 2009 07:12

pgbhat wrote:bhailog, I am graduating soon with yum yes .... no job any suggestions??

Apply for PhD in Business schools in India/Massa to ride out recession. Otherwise sarkari naukri is your friend....maybe join business front-end of Antrix...1st BR jingo to do so!

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 05 May 2009 05:57

Capgemini hands out pink slips to 600

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 May 2009 20:53

today was the day. all coffee machines, biscuits, coke refrigerators removed from the workplace. pantry was wearing a deserted look with just water and tea. next in line is having one variety of tea only and getting rid of the free magazines and newspapers.

and one more round of 'reorgs' is coming end of this week - expected YoY decline in sale is 20%

sarulan · Post by **sarulan** » 05 May 2009 22:07

Singha wrote: and one more round of 'reorgs' is coming end of this week - expected YoY decline in sale is 20%

Singhaji, what is the total head count so far?
In 2002, IT in India grew big, since massa found it easier to fund a development center in India than to ramp up in US. The first question any Angel Investor would ask is "Do you have a development center in India". These 6 years have been a huge ride for all the IT companies in India.

My question to you is "Do you forsee the repeat of 2002, or is it going to be "cut and run" for most of the MNC's in India? With Obama taking the anti-outsourcing cause and the american economy in the drain, what is the likely outcome for the next 2 years?

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 May 2009 22:17

today was the day. all coffee machines, biscuits, coke refrigerators removed from the workplace. pantry was wearing a deserted look with just water and tea. next in line is having one variety of tea only and getting rid of the free magazines and newspapers.

This scenario would have been dismissed as impossible by any "Gorilla-man" just a year back!!!

How the mighty have fallen (a.k.a, cost cut)...