MRCA News and Discussion

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 12 May 2009 11:25

UK assessing cost of cancelling Eurofighter deal

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 May 2009 11:50

The US is just waiting for a sucker to buy either manufacturing line (F-16/F-18),as this will be most probably the last major order of either type,both being phased out in favour of the JSF.The major allies of the US are all buying the JSF so buying an inferior aircraft for the IAF appears meaningless,as whatever tech. is acquired will be quickly obsolete.The Eurofighter,Gripen,Rafale are more modern and even the MIG-35 comes with an AESA and newer weaponry.If the LCA Mk-2 is being pursued with singleminded vigour,as it should be,after so much of effort,how are we going to absorb,evaluate and maintain so many different types of tech,LCA (desi/foreign),MMRCA,SU-30MKI,MIG-29 upgrades,5th-gen fighter and the MCA'a ambitions to boot! We appear to be scouring the bucket of almost every major manufacturer and will eventually have a proliferation of at least 5 types,when air forces all over the world are trying to streamline their forces with fewer types for obvious reasons.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 12 May 2009 12:27

JaiS wrote:UK assessing cost of cancelling Eurofighter deal

'Bye Bye EF' as MMRCA then?!

mgill · Post by **mgill** » 12 May 2009 12:29

NRao wrote:
I have heard that the F-35 is going to replace the F-18 sooner as this was on the news evan though the f-35 has not been full tested
Do I smell a troll here?

For the last time. "I have heard" - seems to be one web site. No where have I found a Gates type saying that - if there is please provide a URL for my sanity. And, TIA.

F-35s are supposed to replace F-16s too and three more air crafts. But, that does not mean that in 2015 when the F-35 is expected to be operational that the USN/USAF would pack all F-18/F-16 and replace them. They cannot. IF at all they will be replaced by about 2025 or even 2030. F-18 IIRC are supposed to fly into the 2040s and if you google you will find Boeing being confident to sell more F-18s.

Why is that so difficult to understand. Thus the conclusion - troll.

FYI Below Link
And what is Troll supposed to mean???
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=15052

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 12 May 2009 12:45

mgill wrote: And what is Troll supposed to mean???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 12 May 2009 16:59

mgill wrote:I have heard that the F-35 is going to replace the F-18 sooner as this was on the news evan though the f-35 has not been full tested

You're not entirely wrong. When you say F-18...its F-18 Hornet and what the gurus here are refering to is the F-18 Super Hornet. So be vigilant and precise in future. Something I have learnt from my past experiences here!

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 12 May 2009 21:29

Philip wrote:The US is just waiting for a sucker to buy either manufacturing line (F-16/F-18),as this will be most probably the last major order of either type,both being phased out in favour of the JSF.The major allies of the US are all buying the JSF so buying an inferior aircraft for the IAF appears meaningless,as whatever tech. is acquired will be quickly obsolete.The Eurofighter,Gripen,Rafale are more modern and even the MIG-35 comes with an AESA and newer weaponry.If the LCA Mk-2 is being pursued with singleminded vigour,as it should be,after so much of effort,how are we going to absorb,evaluate and maintain so many different types of tech,LCA (desi/foreign),MMRCA,SU-30MKI,MIG-29 upgrades,5th-gen fighter and the MCA'a ambitions to boot! We appear to be scouring the bucket of almost every major manufacturer and will eventually have a proliferation of at least 5 types,when air forces all over the world are trying to streamline their forces with fewer types for obvious reasons.

philip sir , you have said it so perfect, I wanted to say in my earlier post.
whether f18s are phased out completely or partially(still a big number in hundreds) ,point is that IAF should not be a sucker,
f35 is the next gen and this transition is happening in all the airforces who are good, and if IAF wants to be in the league it should go for next gen or closer to it(rafale,ef,gripenng) and should not buy amriki old stuff, otherwise we would be whining a lot if this decision is taken and mods's work will increase in defending the decision or so.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 May 2009 21:44

Philip wrote:The US is just waiting for a sucker to buy either manufacturing line (F-16/F-18),as this will be most probably the last major order of either type,both being phased out in favour of the JSF.The major allies of the US are all buying the JSF so buying an inferior aircraft for the IAF appears meaningless,as whatever tech. is acquired will be quickly obsolete.The Eurofighter,Gripen,Rafale are more modern and even the MIG-35 comes with an AESA and newer weaponry.

how does the MiG-35 make the cut ? the RuAF is not interested in any MiG-35s, and as a stopgap measure, will take some Su-35s and Su-34s till the PAK-FA is ready. shouldn't your diatribe against legacy upgrades like the F-16IN and F-18IN include the MiG-35 as well then ?

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 12 May 2009 21:53

mgill wrote: And what is Troll supposed to mean???

Mgill, Google chacha is very helpful in answering most questions.
Look here for Definition of Troll
Cheers,
Sanju

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 May 2009 22:34

Samay wrote: .................. and if IAF wants to be in the league .......................

What/which league?

mgill · Post by **mgill** » 12 May 2009 23:48

One thing i dont get is why India was not offered the JSF???

Aint we classed as an ally of the US and NATO?

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 13 May 2009 00:24

mgill wrote:One thing i dont get is why India was not offered the JSF???

Aint we classed as an ally of the US and NATO?

Only recently we are looked upon in that light.

JSF is a topic been done to death in this thread , lets not bring it up again.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 13 May 2009 00:43

mgill wrote:One thing i dont get is why India was not offered the JSF???

Aint we classed as an ally of the US and NATO?

jsf was not offered for following reasons:
1.timeline of MMRCA,,,
jsf will go into full squadron service in USAF by 2010-11,with the first squadron being formed by 2012-13.US NAVY AND MARINES wil follow soon.the jsf partners,,level 1,2 or 3 and the security level partner like israel will get jsf by-2014-15 because they have contributed moneyfor the development of f-35,,,so due to high demand IT WOULDN'T HAVE been possible for lockheed martin to meet the timeline for mmrca.if india were to get JSF,IT WOULD BE 2015-16 AT THE EARLIEST while first mmrca should be in service by 2013.

2.production
MMRCA RFP specifies that 108 of the 126 mmrca should be built in india.there is no way that the Us government would allow a foreign country to open assembly lines of its primary high-tech 5th gen fighter,that would be backbone of Us armed forces for decades to come,,,.USA even has problems with israel and UK ON TECH TRANSFER ISSUE,,IT is not allowing israel to know the source codes and also not allowing israel to repair jsf by itself,,,by blocking israel access to f-35 avionics ---here is a ne

US denies Israel access to F-35 computer

A refusal by the United States to allow Israel to repair computer systems in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is at the heart of disagreements between the Defense Ministry and the Pentagon that have been holding up an official Israeli order for the fifth-generation fighter jet

Defense officials told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday that talks between the Israeli defense delegation in Washington and the Pentagon have picked up speed in recent weeks but have yet to result in agreement due to the US's refusal to grant Israel access to the plane's internal computer mainframe.
The Americans are concerned that by allowing Israel to independently repair the computers, the Israel Air Force will get its hands on the classified technology that was used to make the plane.

Israel, on the other hand, has argued that due to its operational requirements it needs to have the ability to repair damaged or broken computer systems in "real time" and cannot wait for a computer system to be sent to the US for repairs in the middle of a war.

The Americans have told Israel it will receive a number of spare computer systems that it could install in place of a damaged system but would still have to send the damaged system to the US for repairs.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

3.no tech transfer of jsf ,,,

all these factor rule out F-35 JSF,,,,,

mgill · Post by **mgill** » 13 May 2009 00:49

saptarishi wrote:
mgill wrote:One thing i dont get is why India was not offered the JSF???

Aint we classed as an ally of the US and NATO?
jsf was not offered for following reasons:
1.timeline of MMRCA,,,
jsf will go into full squadron service in USAF by 2010-11,with the first squadron being formed by 2012-13.US NAVY AND MARINES wil follow soon.the jsf partners,,level 1,2 or 3 and the security level partner like israel will get jsf by-2014-15 because they have contributed moneyfor the development of f-35,,,so due to high demand IT WOULDN'T HAVE been possible for lockheed martin to meet the timeline for mmrca.if india were to get JSF,IT WOULD BE 2015-16 AT THE EARLIEST while first mmrca should be in service by 2013.

2.production
MMRCA RFP specifies that 108 of the 126 mmrca should be built in india.there is no way that the Us government would allow a foreign country to open assembly lines of its primary high-tech 5th gen fighter,that would be backbone of Us armed forces for decades to come,,,.USA even has problems with israel and UK ON TECH TRANSFER ISSUE,,IT is not allowing israel to know the source codes and also not allowing israel to repair jsf by itself,,,by blocking israel access to f-35 avionics ---here is a ne

US denies Israel access to F-35 computer

A refusal by the United States to allow Israel to repair computer systems in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is at the heart of disagreements between the Defense Ministry and the Pentagon that have been holding up an official Israeli order for the fifth-generation fighter jet

Defense officials told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday that talks between the Israeli defense delegation in Washington and the Pentagon have picked up speed in recent weeks but have yet to result in agreement due to the US's refusal to grant Israel access to the plane's internal computer mainframe.
The Americans are concerned that by allowing Israel to independently repair the computers, the Israel Air Force will get its hands on the classified technology that was used to make the plane.

Israel, on the other hand, has argued that due to its operational requirements it needs to have the ability to repair damaged or broken computer systems in "real time" and cannot wait for a computer system to be sent to the US for repairs in the middle of a war.

The Americans have told Israel it will receive a number of spare computer systems that it could install in place of a damaged system but would still have to send the damaged system to the US for repairs.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

3.no tech transfer of jsf ,,,

all these factor rule out F-35 JSF,,,,,

Thanks for this very informative

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 May 2009 02:39

hello! so far we haven't read or heard IAF RFPs for specifications that would match F35. Going by what Boeing and LM is offering, its apparent that is not the case. Hence, lets keep this jsf out of scope here.

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 13 May 2009 05:11

Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20% thrust upgrade

The F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) includes an all new core and forward fan to dramatically increase the fighter's takeoff performance, said Bob Gower, Boeing vice president for F/A-18E/F.

The improvements would increase the F414 thrust rating from 22,000lbs to 26,600lbs.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 May 2009 05:55

We need to stop feeding trolls.

saptarishi,

Check Indian Military Aviation thread.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 14 May 2009 00:12

Rafale Still Chasing Indian Fighter Deal

The Rafale strike fighter industrial team says it remains in the Indian fighter competition even though an Indian defense official has said it was kicked out.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... ter%20Deal

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 14 May 2009 02:40

JaiS wrote:Boeing upbeat on prospects for F/A-18 fighter sales

If Kangress wins MMS like nuke deal with fight for F-18 sale. Depending on american military equipment means bye bye Kashmir and maybe even independence.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 May 2009 04:56

I think you are right, just one twist. India has her own Taliban - Naxals (some 15-20+% is already occupied by them). I think the North will become commie and the South a democratic, capitalistic country.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 14 May 2009 09:36

NRao, your sense of humor is well appreciated.

UK seen ready to sign Eurofighter order

LONDON (Reuters) - Britain is set to approve the latest order of Eurofighter jets but is examining ways of containing its cost, according to a report in Wednesday's edition of the Financial Times.

Following intervention by business secretary Peter Mandelson, Prime Minister Gordon Brown has ruled out cancelling the order because of the impact on jobs and the risk of damage to Britain's reputation as a reliable industrial partner, the FT said in an unsourced report.

Optimism Reigns Over Rafale's Export Prospects

dinakar · Post by **dinakar** » 15 May 2009 07:06

Now another report about Rafale...

French bid to re-enter race for combat aircraft

Making a strong bid to push its fighter plane, Rafale, back in contention for the 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft India seeks to acquire, a high-level delegation from France will meet officials in the Defence Ministry on Friday.

Led by Jacques Lajugi, Head of France’s Air International Development, the delegation will call on Defence Secretary Vijay Singh to explore the possibility of re-entering the race of five other manufacturers from the United States, Sweden, Russia and Europe, sources in the Ministry said.

Among the six manufacturers that had responded to India’s Request for Proposal, sources said that Rafale had been eliminated from the race as it failed in the technical evaluations.

However, it is now understood that the report of the committee is yet to be perused by the Defence Procurement Board.

The committee report making such a recommendation was based on the response of the French company Dassault, which makes Rafale. The sources said the questions largely related to equipment and other add-ons that the user wanted to have, but not provided by the manufacturer.

The sources said that since the recommendation of the evaluation committee was made, the French manufacturer has provided necessary information that the Indian Air Force had sought.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 May 2009 09:25

but..

is proving a tough commitment for Britain. The 16 it would actually take delivery of will cost around $1.6 billion

that would be $100M for the brits! it should be at least around that or more for us. yes, EF2k is a bye bye as well to follow up with the rafale.
so from ddm/expected ddm analysis, we could say we are left with

SH, F16, M35. let see whats next!?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 May 2009 10:14

all said and done, the imported liquor and 6* hospitality industry of delhi's best stimulus pkg is the MRCA deal.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 15 May 2009 11:24

abhiti wrote:
JaiS wrote:Boeing upbeat on prospects for F/A-18 fighter sales
If Kangress wins MMS like nuke deal with fight for F-18 sale. Depending on american military equipment means bye bye Kashmir and maybe even independence.

What ??

Kindly elaborate on how you came to that conclusion wrt to MRCA winner.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 15 May 2009 11:28

Sometimes I feel the whole MRCA exercise is ONE BIG FART

It is perhaps the biggest dirtiest trick being pulled by the netas, babus and the corrupt defencemen on the Indian nation in general and the armed forces in particular

As there are rumours and counter rumours I think

The number of aircraft will be increased form 126 to ~ 200

Order will be split between Russia and USA

Of course if the Left have some say then USA may have a tough time bribing all of them in their favour

K

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 15 May 2009 15:17

Nihat wrote:
abhiti wrote:If Kangress wins MMS like nuke deal with fight for F-18 sale. Depending on american military equipment means bye bye Kashmir and maybe even independence.
What ??

Kindly elaborate on how you came to that conclusion wrt to MRCA winner.

Don't want to make this into a political discussion so a short answer...read "LEGACY OF ASHES: THE HISTORY OF THE CIA".

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 15 May 2009 19:01

FAB three: Brazil fighter competition heats up as race enters final straight

All the signs are that the announcement of the winner will take place as planned in October 2009. The three-way contest is now between the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Dassault Rafale and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen. The initial buy is for 36 aircraft but, with anticipated follow-ons needed to replace the majority of the FAB's fleet, the total programme numbers could be as high as 100-120 fighters.

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/idr/i ... _1_n.shtml

It is will be interesting to see how this may impact India's decision.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 15 May 2009 19:13

NRao wrote:I think you are right, just one twist. India has her own Taliban - Naxals (some 15-20+% is already occupied by them). I think the North will become commie and the South a democratic, capitalistic country.

NRao
Just because nakali (as they are called in H&P) are wreaking havoc in chattisgarh, bihar, orrisa doesn't mean entire north india will succumb to them and become commie. They haven't met PP, HP yet. All I have to say, bring them on.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 15 May 2009 19:24

Baljeet wrote:
NRao wrote:I think you are right, just one twist. India has her own Taliban - Naxals (some 15-20+% is already occupied by them). I think the North will become commie and the South a democratic, capitalistic country.
NRao
Just because nakali (as they are called in H&P) are wreaking havoc in chattisgarh, bihar, orrisa doesn't mean entire north india will succumb to them and become commie. They haven't met PP, HP yet. All I have to say, bring them on.

Tussi cha gaye paaji. BTW Nrao was having a bit of fun.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 15 May 2009 19:32

Amit
I know NRaoji is having fun. I can see his frustration.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 15 May 2009 20:42

LOL

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 15 May 2009 21:35

NRao wrote:I think you are right, just one twist. India has her own Taliban - Naxals (some 15-20+% is already occupied by them). I think the North will become commie and the South a democratic, capitalistic country.

Sir,
You are right.But nobody is understanding this problem in the same way as you are saying. I m agree with you.
You may disscuse it in other thread like internal security, But without bias.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 May 2009 22:34

Eurofighter relief as Brown approves order

But at what cost? :::

Mr Brown committed the UK to the programme but allocated less-than-expected funds to it, hoping to win big concessions from industry, including on the price per aircraft. The exact sum sanctioned by the British Treasury remains a secret.

UK ministers are determined to squeeze industry on maintenance contracts, which could exceed 10 times the aircraft purchase price. In particular, they want to drive down flying costs by reaching a long term maintenance deal for all three Eurofighter production batches.

This EF stuff is going no where. It is fast becoming a economic/job related issue and no longer a strategic one for Britain.

“I think the UK government came to grasp how many jobs were at stake here – and that any attempt to call today’s agreement into question will be highly dangerous politically.”

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 16 May 2009 13:47

UPA sure to win i think MMRCa WILL go to f-16in or super hornet

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 16 May 2009 14:23

UPA sure to win i think MMRCa WILL go to f-16in or super hornet

no Mig 35 -remember Putin just made sure the nerpa is delivered by end of this year - it is a new package mig 35 plus 2 akula 2 for so many billions and ofcousre speedy completion of Gorky

No one is talking about the Tu 22 ???

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 16 May 2009 15:21

Shankar wrote:
UPA sure to win i think MMRCa WILL go to f-16in or super hornet
no Mig 35 -remember Putin just made sure the nerpa is delivered by end of this year - it is a new package mig 35 plus 2 akula 2 for so many billions and ofcousre speedy completion of Gorky

No one is talking about the Tu 22 ???

Laut ke Buddhu, Ghar ko aaye.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 16 May 2009 15:28

Not necessary. Russia has gorky deal and will get Mig-29k follow on orders (36), 3 more krivak-III's ,second line (P-76) of brahmos equipped subs (6-8), MRTA and more orders for Il-76 MF (as A-50I and tanker role). These deals are easily worth $ 8-10 billion. So they are well covered. There is no news of Tu-22M3 and IN seems to have dropped it altogether, unless there is something you want to share. What happened to Igorr? Haven't heard much from him

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 16 May 2009 16:51

tu-22 is off for now,,anyways tu-22 has become obsolete,even russia is replacing tu-22 in favour of su-32/su-34,,,instead navy is boosting its surveillance capabilities,,,as seen by the p-8i deal,,the tender for 6 medium maritime patrol aircraft,,plus navy is looking seriously at 'phalcon G550 EITAM' or E-D ADVANCED HAWKEYE,,six such aew aircraft will be procured

as far as mmrca is concerned,,,even though i am all for a western aircraft for mmrca,,i think MIG-35 is really loaded with goodies,,,TVC,,high thrust,,ZHUK-AE/FGA-35 with 200km range,,rvv-aepd,,r-74,new kh-31 AD/PD missile with 200km range,,new kh-59 with 285 km range,,then klub 3m-14e with 300 km range,,,ols,,,many more,,with full tech transfer i think mig-35 is definitely close to bag this deal,,but i think airforce likes f-16in

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 16 May 2009 17:37

i think mig-35 is definitely close to bag this deal,,but i think airforce likes f-16in

correct on first count MIg 35 is surely in but not all of iaf only senior decision makers may have a bias for f-16/18 and some private sector players too like tatas