Indian Naval Discussion

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 20 May 2009 07:36

Rakesh,
How does one reach the Linkl4.html navy page from the main navy page? There is no link there, I checked.
Please keep a link there for both versions of the Navy page PLEASE.

I had sent in a pic of the model of the Shardul class offshore patrol vessel. Please feel free to upload it onto the main page.
(I could send in the pics again if you give me a PM with an email address

)
regards

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 May 2009 07:37

New sea trials of Nerpa submarine set for June - paper

VLADIVOSTOK, May 13 (RIA Novosti) - New sea trials of the Nerpa nuclear-powered submarine, which was damaged in a fatal accident during previous tests, will be conducted on June 15-20, Russia's Kommersant daily said on Wednesday.

On November 8 last year, while the Nerpa submarine was undergoing sea trials in the Sea of Japan, its on-board fire safety system went off, releasing deadly gas into the sleeping quarters. Three submariners and 17 shipyard workers were killed. There were 208 people, 81 of them submariners, on board the vessel at the time.

"Repairs on board the Nerpa submarine are almost complete," Kommersant quoted general director of the Amur shipyard Nikolai Povzyk as saying.

Povzyk said the Nerpa, which is due to be leased by the Indian Navy, could be ready by the yearend if the project received sufficient financing.

India has reportedly paid $650 million for a 10-year lease of the 12,000-ton Nerpa nuclear attack submarine. Indian media has reported that the construction of the vessel was partially financed by the country's government.

The accident on K-152 Nerpa, an Akula II class nuclear-powered attack submarine, was the Russian Navy's worst since the sinking of the Kursk nuclear submarine in 2000, which claimed the lives of all 118 personnel on board.

An investigation has supported the conclusion that the tragedy was caused by the mishandling of a temperature sensor on board which led to deadly Freon gas being released.

Submariner Dmitry Grobov has been charged with "involuntary manslaughter" for entering the wrong temperature data for the submarine's living quarters, which caused the fire suppression system to release the Freon gas.

link

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 May 2009 09:22

Vick wrote:This is also the first time modular construction is being attempted in India... Hope springs eternal. The pics of MDL's launch ceremony showed modules that were structurally complete to a high degree.

As of Feb 28th, there were only steel blocks that were built. Nothing else exists now. For this ship to be tested next year, you are talking about the entire hull being fabricated, the island being installed, the lifts to be working, the radar and sensors to be up & running, the main machinery to be installed, the list goes on....

We are now five months into 2009. Lets assume the vessel is ready to undergo sea trials by Dec 2010....you are talking about a time span of 19 months. That is not feasible in any manner Vick. Even if Allah & Ram assist CSL, that ship is not going to be ready for testing in 19 months. No way, no how. No, No, No!

p_saggu wrote:How does one reach the Linkl4.html navy page from the main navy page? There is no link there, I checked. Please keep a link there for both versions of the Navy page PLEASE.

I will have to add that on the main navy page. Will do so, as soon as possible. For now, please go here...

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Link4.html

You can also visit Links 1 to 3 by just changing the number at the end of the above link.

p_saggu wrote:I had sent in a pic of the model of the Shardul class offshore patrol vessel. Please feel free to upload it onto the main page. I could send in the pics again if you give me a PM with an email address

Please resend to koshyr AT hotmail DOT com

manish · Post by **manish** » 20 May 2009 12:16

Rakesh wrote:
Vick wrote:This is also the first time modular construction is being attempted in India... Hope springs eternal. The pics of MDL's launch ceremony showed modules that were structurally complete to a high degree.
As of Feb 28th, there were only steel blocks that were built. Nothing else exists now. For this ship to be tested next year, you are talking about the entire hull being fabricated, the island being installed, the lifts to be working, the radar and sensors to be up & running, the main machinery to be installed, the list goes on....

We are now five months into 2009. Lets assume the vessel is ready to undergo sea trials by Dec 2010....you are talking about a time span of 19 months. That is not feasible in any manner Vick. Even if Allah & Ram assist CSL, that ship is not going to be ready for testing in 19 months. No way, no how. No, No, No!
...
...

I quite agree with Rakeshji here. Even in super efficient Korean yards that churn out ships like an assembly line, the construction of a large merchant ship takes anywhere from 10 months to 18 months, from Keel laying to delivery - even with standardised designs, components and processes. And the ships are nowhere near as complicated as an Aircraft Carrier to boot.

Witness the delay with the Shivaliks due to delays in their long lead components - this is a typical illustration of difficulties in Naval shipbuilding. The Koreans would have placed orders well in advance with MAN/Wartsila/in-house suppliers well in advance, which is a luxury they have thanks to their multibillion dollar orderbooks.

Then of course there is an issue with the infra at Indian yards - cranes being the topmost if you are attempting a modular construction - CSL is still talking about 250T - 300T cranes. At your typical Korean/Japanese/Chinese heavies, 900T cranes are quite common. Makes a huge difference in terms of the size of the modular blocks. Also the capacity of slipways and lifts, space at the yards would matter here I guess, perhaps one of the aged maulanas here can explain these things better.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 20 May 2009 15:50

Inside Vikram (and a bit of outside)
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... GE_167.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... GE_168.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... GE_169.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... GE_170.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... GE_171.jpg

skher · Post by **skher** » 21 May 2009 01:05

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 191511.htm

"The Indian Navy would build 32 warships and six submarines using indigenous technology by the year 2012 ," Adm. Mehta told reporters on the occasion.

32 warships onleee?!?

Armchair Admirals would have desired 10,000 blistering barnacles!

Either this is some serious mijjile palishing by indigenous foreign made spirits or we are being helped enormously by Foreign/Pvt. yards.

Which is it?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 May 2009 03:29

Snake,

Nice.

But, those "inside" pictures, the tech looks rather outdated.

John · Post by **John** » 21 May 2009 05:21

NRao wrote:Snake,

Nice.

But, those "inside" pictures, the tech looks rather outdated.

Not suprising considering it is using steam turbines hopefully the boiler are more reliable than ones Gorshkov got.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 21 May 2009 11:13

NRao wrote:Snake,

Nice.

But, those "inside" pictures, the tech looks rather outdated.

NRao,
That depends. Compared to Kuznecov (pics) it looks quite OK but that's also the problem, because Kuz is the most modern carrier they've got. Some of the equipment might be taken from newer export projects, like boiler and engine control may be that of 956EM and BIUS and satcomm may come from 11356, but carrier-specific equipment is already 20 years old.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... xwfniu.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... j2prgp.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... wv50cb.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... 8l5jae.jpg

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 21 May 2009 11:29

And we are to pay 3-4 x the cost of the IAC for this rust bucket

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 May 2009 12:46

When we're operating a 50 yr. old WW2 vintage carrier,the Hermes/Viraat,operating the Gorshkov shouldn't be too difficult for the IN,the only factor being using STOBAR launch and recovery,something new for the IN.Russian displays might not look as sophisticated as those of the west,but they are extremely rugged .What was missing in the quoted report of the CNS's speech was that "X" number of warships would be built/aquired "both" from local yards and abroad.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 21 May 2009 13:33

I do not understand all this talk about the inside "looks" of vikramaditya.

Can one get any more childish?
Have you seen inside(cockpit) of MKI? If we are to go by the motto "looks kill", then MKI should be one crap aircraft. On the same basis, Rafale should be the ultimate king of a/cs, with one Rafale taking on 10 F-22s with absurd ease.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 21 May 2009 13:44

Any Thoughts what would be it like on ADS , Same old fashioned instrumentation or we might see some digital tech

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 May 2009 18:16

SNaik,

Thanks.

A better gauge, perhaps, would be the interior of a Talwar class ship. I did google, but could not find any pictures - so far.

Parijat,

I did not expect this - thus the surprise.

On the MKI, even that is some 15+ years old design. I am sure that a current design effort would produce something far better. With newer thinking/s and newer techs - like network centric environments, etc - they better have far better interfaces to reduce the workload on the user (air crafts in particular). IIRC, the MKI is getting (or has got) noise cancellation.

The LCA, IIRC, is designed for an "Indian pilot" (typical size). And, even that is a few decades old thinking.

Phillips,

I am sure Russian equipment is rugged, that is not the issue. It is a better use interface.

Western, Russian? How about Indian?

arun · Post by **arun** » 21 May 2009 19:42

Rakesh / Maz,

The BR website has completely missed out on this planned acqusition. Please update the website.

Alcock Ashdown is executing a contract for 6 Aluminium hulled Hydrographic Survey Catamarans from the Indian Navy.

The line drawing is here:

General Arrangement

Specs, extracted from the above mentioned line drawing, as follows:

HULL LENGTH OVERALL: 49.8M
LENGTH BETWEEN PERPENDICULARS: 45.0M
BEAM (MID): 16.0M
DEPTH (MID): 4.5M
MAX. DRAFT (LOADED): 2.2M
RANGE: 3000 NM AT ECO
SERVICE SPEED; 12 KNOTS CRUISING, 18 KNOTS MAX
ENGINES:
A. 2 x Cummins KTA 38M2. Each 1007 KW.
B. 2 x Cummins QSK 19M. Each 567 KW.

Details of the survey equipment carried on board can be gleaned from here:

Survey Equipment

Kongsberg press release announcing sale of the HUGIN 1000 Autonomous Underwater Vehicle is here:

Advanced subsea systems to India

Information on the HUGIN 1000 system is here:

Autonomous underwater vehicle HUGIN 1000 AUV

maz · Post by **maz** » 21 May 2009 20:22

Great find Arun! Well done mate. The program is running somewhat behind schedule but these are pretty modern vessels so IN folks will be happy to get these ships.

As for the P-71 IAC, the ship will have a much more modern, contemporary set of equipment.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 May 2009 03:21

tsarkar wrote:Godavari earlier used RAWL (only RAWL, no suffix) that was based on Signaal LW-04.

From http://www.thalesgroup.com/netherlands/ ... ALES&dis=1

“In the past, BEL has built under a licence contract the Thales systems … LW04 … naval radars”

DA-08 and LW-08 were selected for Brahmaputra and LW-08 was repeated on Delhi (B build started before D though launched later).

Reasonably accurate history of LW-08 at http://www.forecastinternational.com/Ar ... rs5924.doc though it confuses between RAWL and RAWL-02. Note its combat performance in British service during the Gulf War

Recently LW-08 is re-equipping the Godavari and last three R’s. From Maz’s post, http://www.c7f.navy.mil/imagery/high-re ... 1W-142.jpg shows Ranvir with LW-08 replacing MR-500 Kliver, also L-Band. Roel had earlier posted Ranjit’s pictures with LW-08.

Full history of Godavari at http://indiannavy.nic.in/t2t2e/trans2em ... ect_16.htm

1) Is the LW-08 replacing the Signaal radar or the MR-310U radar aboard the Godavari Class frigates?

2) Has the Ranvijay replaced her MP-500 radar with the LW-08 radar? I thought the latter was operating at D-band and not L-band. Is it really L-band?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 May 2009 03:26

Info on INS Mandovi updated, with the recent change;

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/WNC.html

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 May 2009 04:35

New album added. Check it out at;

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... 009/RASEX/

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 May 2009 05:24

arun wrote:Rakesh / Maz,

The BR website has completely missed out on this planned acqusition. Please update the website.

Alcock Ashdown is executing a contract for 6 Aluminium hulled Hydrographic Survey Catamarans from the Indian Navy.

Excellent find Arun. I will add them in the Survey Vessels section, in the Surface Fleet page;

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Surface.html

Should be up there in a day or two...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 May 2009 08:42

arun/maz: I have added the page on the catamaran. Please click on the link in my above post and refer to the survey vessels sub-section. I will be adding the line drawing of the vessel tomorrow. Let me know if I have missed anything. Thanks.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 22 May 2009 09:02

Rakesh wrote:New album added. Check it out at;

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... 009/RASEX/

Beauty

Ankit

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 22 May 2009 09:11

The sea looks quite rough, the boat must be rolling and pitching very seriously!

Why no pics of a Brahmos equipped Rajput class destroyer around?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 May 2009 10:20

Have they done any improvement work on the Rajput SA-3 Goa SAM ? Will it be a good idea to replace those Goa with single arm SA-17 , is it worth ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 May 2009 10:23

probably not given the limited extent of air threat in the predicted lifetime of the rajputs. would need new radar also

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 May 2009 10:55

Singha wrote:probably not given the limited extent of air threat in the predicted lifetime of the rajputs. would need new radar also

How many more operational years do Rajput/Ranvijay have ?

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 22 May 2009 12:15

Given that the ship (ranvir) doesn't have rear SA-3 launchers it is brahmos (VLS) equipped. The last rajput should retire around 2018-20.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 22 May 2009 14:08

Ranvir
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... Ranvir.jpg

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 22 May 2009 14:14

Govt set to clear Gorshkov deal by July end

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 562517.cms

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 May 2009 14:42

The average age of a well maintained destroyer is 35 years , assuming IN takes good care of its assets with regular maint and periodic refits.

The first of Rajput class commisioned in 1980 should retire around 2015 and last Ranvijay commisioned in 1988 should retire by around 2022

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 22 May 2009 16:37

Ankit Desai wrote:
Rakesh wrote:New album added. Check it out at;

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... 009/RASEX/
Beauty

Ankit

Why the green tinge to the water splashing off the bow and in the wake? It's definitely not sea water alone.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 22 May 2009 17:18

Rakesh wrote: 1) Is the LW-08 replacing the Signaal radar or the MR-310U radar aboard the Godavari Class frigates?

MR-310U on all three G + last two R has been replaced by Elta 2238. Both these radars worked in IEEE S-Band corresponding to NATO E 2-3 GHz F 3-4 GHz bands.

Rakesh wrote:2) Has the Ranvijay replaced her MP-500 radar with the LW-08 radar? I thought the latter was operating at D-band and not L-band. Is it really L-band?

Ranjit and Ranvir have replaced their MR-500 Kliver with LW-08 radar. Both radars work in IEEE L-Band 1-2 GHz corresponding to NATO D-Band 1-2 GHz. These days IEEE is preferred over NATO designations.

Austin wrote:The average age of a well maintained destroyer is 35 years , assuming IN takes good care of its assets with regular maint and periodic refits.

The first of Rajput class commisioned in 1980 should retire around 2015 and last Ranvijay commisioned in 1988 should retire by around 2022

Life of a ship is 20 years. With MLU’s every 10 years, it’s possible to extend life to 30 years. Any service over that is risky (fatigue, corrosion) and expensive (equipment spares production may have stopped). Most navies use these ships as trials (Dunagiri) or training or patrol ships (Taragiri, Vindhyagiri)

Bureaucracy caused G & R upgrades initially scheduled early 2000s to happen only now. Not much structural life left in these ships to justify adding the new equipment. All will be decommissioned within the next decade

Pakistan does operate old ships, however their serviceability is very poor. Their SLOC are short mostly to neighboring gulf states, hence the ships don’t require endurance or seakeeping. They do send their ships to China / ME once in a while.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 May 2009 17:33

Thanks , so by the time P-15A start hitting waters the Ranjit class will start decommisioning with the last of the class decommissioned by ~ 2018

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 22 May 2009 19:37

Austin wrote:Thanks , so by the time P-15A start hitting waters the Ranjit class will start decommisioning with the last of the class decommissioned by ~ 2018

Not necessarily, Austin. Russia still operates Smetlivy, the last of Project 61M, which entered service with Black Sea Fleet in 1969. It got complete overhaul in 1990-95. With money and proper maintenance other five 61Ms could have been kept for at least 30+ years in service instead of being written off in beginning of 90's. Soviets were building sturdy ships back then.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 22 May 2009 19:50

You're right Austin.

Six Rajputs were planned, however the last one was cancelled because of its dated design & systems, anticipation of quick availability of the Delhi class and to free funds.

IN typically needs 24 frigates and destroyers and presently has 3 Type 1135.6, 3 Type 15, 3 Type 16A, 3 Type 16, 5 Type 61ME and 3 Type 12I = 20, so four short.

3 Type 17 will replace 3 Type 12I, 3 Type 15A will replace 2 older Type 61ME (Rajput, Rana). The additional 3 Type 1135.6 presently being built will address the shortfall.

2012-13 the fleet would be 3 15A, 3 17, 6 Type 1135.6, 3 Type 15, 3 Type 16A, 3 Upgraded Type 16 and 3 Upgraded Type 61ME = 24

4 Project 15B initiated this year would replace the remaining 3 Upgraded Type 61ME and add numbers while Project 17A should replace the 3 Upgraded Type 16 in the 2013-2018 timeframe. And surriptiously sneak past a few more numbers past the bean counters.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 May 2009 20:24

I also read recently that IN was planning to order 3 more Type 1135.6 from Russia in addition to the 3 being built , but no confirm news yet.

Did the SA-3 Goa SAM on Rajput class received any upgrades yet , if not considering their 60's vintage arent they too old to be operated as a medium range SAM on frontline destroyers ?

maz · Post by **maz** » 23 May 2009 05:17

Tsarkar, As always, thank you for your illuminating posts.

Question: Is Type 12I the local designation for the FSA34 Broad beam Leander design?

Secondly, can the AK 630 be fired at rates much lower than its maximum rate of 5000 rpm? In other words, can the gun's rate of fire be adjusted from a minimum to a maximum rate? Or can it only fire a burst of 400 rds? For example, can the gun be used to engage a pirate skiff at a rate of fire of 300 rds/min for say, 10 seconds to fire 30 rounds?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 May 2009 09:37

tsarkar: your help, as always, has been invaluable. Please take a look at these two pages and let me know if they look good.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Rajput.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Godavari.html

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 23 May 2009 14:06

maz wrote: Secondly, can the AK 630 be fired at rates much lower than its maximum rate of 5000 rpm? In other words, can the gun's rate of fire be adjusted from a minimum to a maximum rate? Or can it only fire a burst of 400 rds? For example, can the gun be used to engage a pirate skiff at a rate of fire of 300 rds/min for say, 10 seconds to fire 30 rounds?

In theory, yes. In practice it will mean to install some kind of regulator on the gas engine which rotates the barrels. It will be not so easy as adjust an electric engine, but doable.
Anyway, it's not necessary, because AO-18 (that's the designation of gun itself) can fire bursts with different number of rounds. The recommended engagement mode for maneuvering sea-skimmer is 4-5 short bursts of 20-25 shells at maximum distance (4-5 km) and switching to one long burst of 400 rounds at maximum effective distance (800-1500m).

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 23 May 2009 15:50

The sea looks quite rough, the boat must be rolling and pitching very seriously!

You call that 'quite rough'? Typically this is low swell (max 1 m), moderate sea condition. Rough is anywhere between 5 to 15 m swell and windspeeds over 40 knots..

Why the green tinge to the water splashing off the bow and in the wake? It's definitely not sea water alone.

It is pure sea water. Propellerwakes leave a bluish tinge in a perfectly grey sea.