Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 09 May 2009 01:30

Paki Al-Zarrar tank disabled/destroyed by Taliban.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9fZIR7H ... re=channel

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 16 May 2009 19:37

Guyz, May is already half past. We are so close to June. Doesnt anyone have any info on the Arjun vs Bhishma comparo trial

Not even doodhwala / panwala information?

What say Shivji?

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 17 May 2009 00:05

aditp wrote:Guyz, May is already half past. We are so close to June. Doesnt anyone have any info on the Arjun vs Bhishma comparo trial

Not even doodhwala / panwala information?

What say Shivji?

Two Arjun squadrons, or around 40-45 tanks, from the 43rd Armoured Regiment based at Suratgarh will conduct the trials.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 17 May 2009 02:13

sivabala wrote:
ParGha wrote: ... Loading from the back may be easier, but I've never thought about it that way. It is not a big deal loading from the top.
Thanks ParGha.
I just came across this Quote from wiki about adv's of Merkava's rear entry door.
"The rear entrance's clamshell-style doors provide overhead protection when off- and on-loading cargo and personnel."
So Israeli's do use rear door for loading armaments.
Provision for rear door my not be easier in our tank designs bcos unlike Merkava, Arjun has engine in rear. However, for future design such ideas shall be considered if there are no downsides.

Israeli's have incorporated rear doors in the IPC's converted from the captured T-55's of Egyptian and Syrian Army's.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 23 May 2009 00:28

16 Arjun Tanks to be handed over to Army on May 25

http://www.indopia.in/India-usa-uk-news ... nal/1/20/1

Neilz · Post by **Neilz** » 23 May 2009 02:44

finally some news .. but what about comparative trial....

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 23 May 2009 03:47

Neilz wrote:finally some news .. but what about comparative trial....

Watch for who heads MOD...if it is Anthony it is good news for Arjun. Remember he could have killed Arjun in just one decision, there was news some 2-3 years back about babus requesting accelerated delivery of T-90 from Russia. Anthony shot it down as he didn't see any "immediate requirement".

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 24 May 2009 17:18

Comparative trials between Arjun, Russian T-90 delayed
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 241511.htm

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 24 May 2009 17:37

The stakes are getting raised, this is going to be quite a show:

"The earlier plan was to hold trials using a small number of tanks of both types during summers around May or June. But with the Army now insisting on fielding a regiment (40 tanks) of both the tanks against each other, it will take another three months before the trials begin," Defence Ministry sources told PTI here.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 24 May 2009 18:04

Nitesh wrote:The stakes are getting raised, this is going to be quite a show:

"The earlier plan was to hold trials using a small number of tanks of both types during summers around May or June. But with the Army now insisting on fielding a regiment (40 tanks) of both the tanks against each other, it will take another three months before the trials begin," Defence Ministry sources told PTI here.

It seems to me like someone or somebody wants to avoid this trial at all costs. Every time the IA finds some or the other excuse to wiggle out of comparative trial shows that there is definitely something fishy going around there. Now why do they need an entire regiment to do the trial? May be they are waiting for the summer to get over to avoid exposing T-90's weaknesses in the harsh desert heat.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 24 May 2009 18:09

They probably want to get statistics out of the trial. For example X% Arjuns had problems v/s Y% T-90s and so on. For that you would need a larger number. But I am speculating here. Maybe some of the experts can give us their opinions.

Neilz · Post by **Neilz** » 24 May 2009 18:47

shameekg wrote:They probably want to get statistics out of the trial. For example X% Arjuns had problems v/s Y% T-90s and so on. For that you would need a larger number. But I am speculating here. Maybe some of the experts can give us their opinions.

and

"The earlier plan was to hold trials using a small number of tanks of both types during summers around May or June. But with the Army now insisting on fielding a regiment (40 tanks) of both the tanks against each other, it will take another three months before the trials begin," Defence Ministry sources told PTI here.

I am not expert even in remote consideration, but x% or y% ratio is not the case for sure. That can be found out in evaluation trials. In this case a comparative trials is specifically to gauge the war time capability(superiority) of both the tanks against each other. A regiment maneuver probably to create a more realistic scenario. Since Arjun has battle field management system hence in a regiment maneuver its tactical ability will come out vis a vis T90, which in other way with a handful is tough.

But here is a question, comparative trials were suppose to be on summer and with head on battle scenario. Which slowly moving from just physical capability of tank to its tactical uses and Arjun is new compare to T90 to form a optimum tactics and war strategy out of it. It take years to form a war strategy out of machine be it MBT, Fighter or Frigate. Without any active deployment of Arjun there is no time for man-machine understanding to form tactics or strategy. Also, if you remember just few days ago the first regiment of Arjun is delivered. A trial just after 3 months is starting with a hand tied.

Also, this delay will push the trial at the end of summer. We all aware of T90 heating issue, which is reportedly "fixed"

. Is there by any chance of other fishy things about T90, which could come out as a major disadvantage for T90 in the summer and hence this delay and with more tank the physical stress will also be less on each tank?

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 24 May 2009 23:20

T90 certainly have problems in operating at high temperature of as in thar. And army knows that very well.
So the game plan must be like
1. delay the trials by month may be in late June when the mansoon will arrive and temperature will fall.
2.after June trials army will say that these trials are not enough and more comparative trials should be arranged in SUMMER(2010)

and by summer 2010 make some reasons to cancel the arjun orders such as the technology is absolute.

So in short Army is just trying to get time to find something wrong with arjun.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 25 May 2009 00:12

regimental level trials

never heard of it before,
it might be possible they(army) want to induct Arjuns on large scale
or its just a time delaying tactics, to let 'X' no of t90 tank kits arrive ,before faults are discovered in it, in open before media ,canceling further orders
may be next time they would like to evaluate Arjun tank in a real war,

,

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 May 2009 04:00

Samay wrote:regimental level trials

never heard of it before,
it might be possible they(army) want to induct Arjuns on large scale
or its just a time delaying tactics, to let 'X' no of t90 tank kits arrive ,before faults are discovered in it, in open before media ,canceling further orders
may be next time they would like to evaluate Arjun tank in a real war, ,

If this is the case, the T90s will have the advantage since the IA and its tank crews have had many years to hone in skills and tactics on this platform. The same can't be said for Arjuns. The IA itself doesn't know how it can utilize it fully in the battlefield as it is a of a different design (i.e. Western concepts) and now wants to send a crew out after 1-3 months of basic training against "veterans"

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 25 May 2009 04:32

srai wrote:
Samay wrote:regimental level trials

never heard of it before,
it might be possible they(army) want to induct Arjuns on large scale
or its just a time delaying tactics, to let 'X' no of t90 tank kits arrive ,before faults are discovered in it, in open before media ,canceling further orders
may be next time they would like to evaluate Arjun tank in a real war, ,

If this is the case, the T90s will have the advantage since the IA and its tank crews have had many years to hone in skills and tactics on this platform. The same can't be said for Arjuns. The IA itself doesn't know how it can utilize it fully in the battlefield as it is a of a different design (i.e. Western concepts) and now wants to send a crew out after 1-3 months of basic training against "veterans"

Or on the other hand if Arjun proves its mettle and the army orders say few hundreds more then what would be like for T90 and Arjun in future competitive markets in the world? I am not saying Arjun will start bagging the orders. But think of the marketing this trial could generate for the indian products. I mean Army playing hard ass, DRDO going extra mile to prove its worth and finally wininng over ever demanding Indian Army! Wonder what impression that would create on the Russian? embarrassing? showing them we can do equal if not better? telling them deliver or lose Indian market? Wonder is this any part of the strategy? Are we so smart to hit so many birds in one stone? And I am wondering for the Russians, how could they allow such an open competition against their product? Do we have their consent? may be gurus can explain.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 May 2009 13:37

Samay wrote:may be next time they would like to evaluate Arjun tank in a real war, ,

Exactly, my thoughts too.

srai wrote: If this is the case, the T90s will have the advantage since the IA and its tank crews have had many years to hone in skills and tactics on this platform. The same can't be said for Arjuns.

Very true. The Arjun crew would hardly have been familiar with their machines for 3 months.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 25 May 2009 14:23

Compare the indecent haste with which the T-90s were bought. I dont recall "regimental" level trials being conducted at the time.

The IA is making sure that the trials are fixed and loaded in the T-90s favor. Looks like a new batch of Natashas must have been sent...

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 25 May 2009 20:27

abhijitm wrote: Or on the other hand if Arjun proves its mettle and the army orders say few hundreds more then what would be like for T90 and Arjun in future competitive markets in the world? I am not saying Arjun will start bagging the orders. But think of the marketing this trial could generate for the indian products. I mean Army playing hard ass, DRDO going extra mile to prove its worth and finally wininng over ever demanding Indian Army! Wonder what impression that would create on the Russian? embarrassing? showing them we can do equal if not better? telling them deliver or lose Indian market? Wonder is this any part of the strategy? Are we so smart to hit so many birds in one stone? And I am wondering for the Russians, how could they allow such an open competition against their product? Do we have their consent? may be gurus can explain.

and it has already started open mouth
IAF drops Russia from $1 bn deal
although a different platform but somewhere it has to start
all we need to kick out natasha lobby is to conserve local talent, already in abundance

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 25 May 2009 20:35

Samay wrote:
abhijitm wrote: Or on the other hand if Arjun proves its mettle and the army orders say few hundreds more then what would be like for T90 and Arjun in future competitive markets in the world? I am not saying Arjun will start bagging the orders. But think of the marketing this trial could generate for the indian products. I mean Army playing hard ass, DRDO going extra mile to prove its worth and finally wininng over ever demanding Indian Army! Wonder what impression that would create on the Russian? embarrassing? showing them we can do equal if not better? telling them deliver or lose Indian market? Wonder is this any part of the strategy? Are we so smart to hit so many birds in one stone? And I am wondering for the Russians, how could they allow such an open competition against their product? Do we have their consent? may be gurus can explain.
and it has already started open mouth
IAF drops Russia from $1 bn deal
although a different platform but somewhere it has to start
all we need to kick out natasha lobby is to conserve local talent, already in abundance

Well, IAF and IA operate in different ways. We can't expect IA to follow IAF's strategic views.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 25 May 2009 20:45

Army gets its first armoured regiment of MBT Arjun

History of sorts was made today as the Indian Army proudly equipped itself with the first Armoured Regiment of indigenously built Main Battle Tank, Arjun. The development marks the fruition of 35 years of research in self-reliance by dedicated Indian scientists against all odds.

16 tanks (Cumulative 45 Arjun tanks) were handed over to Lt.Gen.D.Bhardwaj, DGMF, towards formation of the 1st Arjun regiment by Shri S.Chandrasekar, Addl. DGOF (AV) and flagged-off by Dr.A.Sivathanu PIllai, Chief Controller, Research & Development & Distinguished Scientist, DRDO at a function in Avadi today. MBT Arjun is the state-of-art main battle tank designed and developed by Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment(CVRDE), Avadi along with other DRDO and industrial partners. MBT Arjun is provided with excellent mobility, superior fire power and protection and the features are quite comparable to contemporary world tanks. The Kanchan Armour, Hydro-pneumatic suspension, Armament system, Integrated Fire Detection & Suppression System, system engineering and system integration of complex weapon platforms are some of the significant indigenous technologies of Arjun, developed by DRDO labs. Initially 12 prototypes were developed during 1983 to 1990 and they were subjected to field trials of more than 20,000 kms and 1100 rounds. Based on user feedback 15 pre-production vehicles were developed during 1990 to 1995 and they were subjected to field trials of more than 70,000 kms and 8000 rounds. After the satisfactory trials, army placed an indent initially for 15 limited series production in Nov 1997 and cumulatively 124 in Mar 2000. The development of Arjun was carried out in a number of stages and evaluation through extensive field trials. After satisfactory performance, Army placed an indent for the full compliment of 124 nos. of MBT Arjun in Mar 2000.

As there was a long gap from the R&D phase to production phase from 1993 to 2000, problems related to re-establishing production lines and vendor sources and resolving overseas issues like technology denial in view of Pokhran testing, change over and mergers of OEMS for the critical items, delayed initial commencement of production. In order to meet the production requirement, additional infrastructure facilities and machine tools were established at HVF, Avadi and Ordnance Factory, Medak. However, the first pilot batch of production tanks was handed over to Army on 7th August 2004 in the presence of the then Defence Minister Shri. Pranab Mukherjee. During subsequent production, Army insisted upon the demonstration of medium fording capabilities of MBT Arjun. Both CVRDE and HVF, continuously worked on war footing, to meet the stringent requirement of medium fording to a height of 2.1m in water with preparation time of 30 minutes as retro-fitment solution and demonstrated successfully to Defence Minister Shri A.K.Antony and other dignitaries on 2nd July 2007. Subsequently, the production tanks were incorporated with all medium fording modifications and the next batch of nine tanks were handed over by Sep 2007.

Meanwhile, Army carried out the Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) in 5 phases on two tanks from Nov 2007 to Aug 2008 covering more than 8000 km and 800 rounds of firing in each tank. AUCRT is required for assessing the spares requirement for the entire life of the tank besides evaluation of reliability of tank. Each phase consists of 1000kms run and 100EFC (Approx. 160 rounds of APFSDS and HESH – Primary and secondary rounds) over a temperature range of -5 to 500C. One of the main issues during AUCRT trials was the failure of the bearings of Transmission of M/s RENK, Germany, due to rise in lub oil temperature. However, this was immediately solved by modifying the software during AUCRT itself and the efficacy of the software was proved for more than 4000kms. However a comprehensive solution of modifying the bearing assembly by providing a special coating was carried out to take care of the temperature problem and the retrofitment of bearing assembly being carried out in all the tanks.

The outcome of AUCRT trials raised the confidence levels of the users over the reliability and endurance of MBT Arjun and they confirmed that the overall performance of the MBT Arjun during the stringent AUCRT trials was satisfactory and cleared the production tanks with minor modifications suggested during AUCRT, for induction. Both CVRDE and HVF along with DGQA agencies worked out methodologies to introduce all AUCRT modifications within shortest time frame and the next batch of 17 tanks were handed over to Army by 3rd March 2009.

As suggested by Army after AUCRT trials, Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment by a third party audit (an internationally reputed tank manufacturer). After the extensive evaluation, the reputed tank manufacturer confirmed that the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics suitable for Indian desert. They also added inputs such as quality auditing, production procedures and refined calibration procedures for further enhancing the performance of MBT Arjun. DRDO, will be incorporating all these inputs in the next regiment of 62 tanks for handing over to Army before Mar 2010 as desired by the Army.

The regiment of 45 tanks will be subjected to a conversion training and field practice for a period of 3 months. Thereafter, the Army is planning to conduct a comparative trial with T 90 tanks in Oct/Nov 2009 to assess the operational deployment role of the tanks. The present batch of 124 tanks will be delivered by Mar 2010.

Veerendra/Rajendra

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=48844

gashish · Post by **gashish** » 26 May 2009 00:14

and assessment by a third party audit (an internationally reputed tank manufacturer). After the extensive evaluation, the reputed tank manufacturer confirmed that the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics suitable for Indian desert.

who could be this..IMI/IDF??? cant trust anybody else..

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 26 May 2009 04:14

Gashish
I agree, it seems like it was IDF experts who may have convinced some high ups about the viability of Arjun. Few years ago there was a news report from rediff or hindu, DRDO scientists were working with IMI/IDF experts on crucial technology. Wonder if in that guise some of our Arjun issues were resolved.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 26 May 2009 06:54

As per ToI field trials to occur in October now.

The Arjun regiment will be subjected to a conversion training and field practice for a period of three months before a comparative trial with T-90 tanks sometime in October 2009 to assess the operational deployment role.

DRDO hands over 16 Arjun tanks to Army

I wonder if ToI is reporting with specific input or doing some guess work?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 May 2009 09:10

Arjun Handover

The HVF at Avadi, which was tasked with manufacturing 124 MBT Arjun units for the Army, has so far handed over 45 tanks. “The fine-tuning of the tanks will continue and the remaining units are scheduled to be ready for commissioning in early 2010,” Dr.{Sivathanu} Pillai said.

D.Bhardwaj, Director General Mechanised Forces, said the joint effort and the will to succeed against odds displayed by various agencies in putting out MBT Arjun proved to the world that India was a force to reckon with when it came to weapon design capabilities.

The Army, which was proud to possess the tank, was confident that MBT Arjun would rank among the best tanks in the world, he said.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 26 May 2009 21:35

DRDO working on additional capabilities for Arjun battle tank

New Delhi (PTI) With the Arjun Main Battle Tank slated to be compared with Russian T-90 tanks in trials after August, the DRDO is working on development of host of armoured defence systems to provide additional capabilities for the indigenously developed battle tank.

"DRDO is developing a laser warning control system (LWCS) and Mobile Camouflaging System (MCS) to be equipped on the Arjun, which is to expected to be fielded for regimental level trials with T-90s during monsoon," Defence Ministry officials told PTI.

The MCS is being developed by DRDO to help the tank reduce the threat of interference from all types of sensors and smart munitions of the enemy in the tank's systems.

"This will help us reduce the signatures of the tank in the battle field and help it improve its survivability," they said.

DRDO is co-developing the technology along with a Gurgaon-based private sector defence manufacturer Baracudda Camouflaging Limited.

The other system LWCS is beind developed in cooperation with Elbit Limited of Israel.

"The Laser Warning Suite of the tank will be based on an Israeli system, used by their Army on its tanks," officials said.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 26 May 2009 22:08

^^^ Old news
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/03/mb ... ystem.html

Under this project, two major systems -- an Advanced Laser Warning and Countermeasure System (ALWCS) and Mobile Camouflage System (MCS) are being developed. MCS is to provide multispectral signature management of the vehicle to reduce the vehicle signature against all known sensors and smart munitions. MCS system has been developed in collaboration with Barracuda Camouflage Ltd, Gurgaon. The system has been integrated on MBT Arjun and the performance evaluation trials have been successfully completed. The methodology and the technologies can be adopted for any AFV platform. ALWCS system comprises laser warning system, IR jammer, and aerosol smoke grenade system. This is being developed jointly with Elbit Systems Ltd, Israel. The system will be integrated on MBT Arjun and performance evaluation trials are expected during summer 2009.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 26 May 2009 23:31

This test is already rigged to favor Trash 90. In October the air temp, desert sand temp will be much lower than they would be in summer heat. There will be no engine over heating, sensor over heating for T-90 in October. IA is gonna train their own soldiers to operate Arjun for three months, there is an idea, if the commander wants a promotion and be on good graces of his superiors he will do what they will tell him to do. Someone high up is not in favor of Arjun. Another way to destroy Arjun, why doesn't army trust their own soldiers who were part of DRDO for so long who are fully trained in operating Arjun.

prasadha · Post by **prasadha** » 27 May 2009 00:12

Hi

I am not sure why most of the posters are considering Army as the villain and seem to have already concluded that they will sabotage the trials.

What if this is a trial not to qualify or disqualify Arjun but to fine-tune the war fighting strategies. With no experience in handling heavy tanks like Arjun, won't the Army want to see which scenarios it can be used effectively. This trial will be a great learning experience for them to understand the theatres in which Arjun and T90 can be used optimally.

I think Army understands the message from the government which is leaning towards indigenisation and falling in line.

JMT.

Pras

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 27 May 2009 00:15

Baljeet wrote:This test is already rigged to favor Trash 90. In October the air temp, desert sand temp will be much lower than they would be in summer heat. There will be no engine over heating, sensor over heating for T-90 in October. IA is gonna train their own soldiers to operate Arjun for three months, there is an idea, if the commander wants a promotion and be on good graces of his superiors he will do what they will tell him to do. Someone high up is not in favor of Arjun. Another way to destroy Arjun, why doesn't army trust their own soldiers who were part of DRDO for so long who are fully trained in operating Arjun.

And we should believe you word for word? whats with all your anti-army conspiracy theories?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 May 2009 00:40

Baljeet wrote:This test is already rigged to favor Trash 90. In October the air temp, desert sand temp will be much lower than they would be in summer heat. There will be no engine over heating, sensor over heating for T-90 in October. IA is gonna train their own soldiers to operate Arjun for three months, there is an idea, if the commander wants a promotion and be on good graces of his superiors he will do what they will tell him to do. Someone high up is not in favor of Arjun. Another way to destroy Arjun, why doesn't army trust their own soldiers who were part of DRDO for so long who are fully trained in operating Arjun.

What exactly are you trying to suggest? Your ridiculous conspiracy theory leaves us with only two possibilities.
1. IA consists of anti patriotic fools who will stop at nothing to sabotage an Indian product, no matter how good it is.
2. IA consists of traitors who are taking bribes from Russia to sabotage Arjun project.
So, among these two choices, which one are you trying to suggest?

Neilz · Post by **Neilz** » 27 May 2009 01:04

prasadha wrote:Hi

I am not sure why most of the posters are considering Army as the villain and seem to have already concluded that they will sabotage the trials.

What if this is a trial not to qualify or disqualify Arjun but to fine-tune the war fighting strategies. With no experience in handling heavy tanks like Arjun, won't the Army want to see which scenarios it can be used effectively. This trial will be a great learning experience for them to understand the theatres in which Arjun and T90 can be used optimally.

I think Army understands the message from the government which is leaning towards indigenisation and falling in line.

JMT.

Pras

Yes, you are right. In a good intension this type of exercise is required to hone skills with new machine. Particularly with a machine which brings everything new, and force the army to change ... change in thinking, change logistic management.. etc.

But then IA should have acknowledge this. In reality IA calling it as Decisive trial. Remember if T90 is proved superior to Arjun, then it will seal the fate of Arjun. That is the only reason question arising on IA.

Pras, your last line is the only hope. With Mr. Antony back in chair, I have a feeling that Arjun will clear the trial.. with its upgrade pkg + MoD's "indigenous" push. Likely 124 arjun + a greater no of MK2. However, funny thing will be how and what will be press release. Since it is decisive trial Arjun OK = T90 NOT OK

Hari C sir, probably Baljeet pull the string a little far with his sarcastic remarks. I dont think he intended to bring any conspiracy theory. But the problem in this whole trial saga ... something is not OK

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 27 May 2009 01:17

Well the press release if at all we have one on the outcome and if at all Arjun is given a level playing field would be something similar

"Indian Army's t-90 tanks a match for Arjun" - psyops here - they wouldnt say Arjun won

In the recently concluded trials held between t-90s and the indigenous Arjuns, it was observed that T-90's had good mobility and firepower suited for Punjab plains. In the face-off trials held over a month Arjun was found to be highly mobile and lethal against the t-90. (psyops here again) However, some problems were found with spares and maintenance during the trials(you will definitely have the supply chain for Arjun running at sub-optimal levels) and owing to these the IA has concluded that until these issues are sorted out it cannot induct it in large numbers(Chicken and egg here - until you have sufficient numbers you wont have a well calibrated supply chain)

Usual DDM whine in the second para. The Arjun has been in dev since JC was born and still not acceptable to the army and yada yada

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 27 May 2009 03:22

HariC wrote:And we should believe you word for word? whats with all your anti-army conspiracy theories?

Maybe you haven't been tracking the Arjun project and IA babus closely...

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 27 May 2009 03:24

Parijat Gaur wrote:What exactly are you trying to suggest? Your ridiculous conspiracy theory leaves us with only two possibilities.
1. IA consists of anti patriotic fools who will stop at nothing to sabotage an Indian product, no matter how good it is.
2. IA consists of traitors who are taking bribes from Russia to sabotage Arjun project.
So, among these two choices, which one are you trying to suggest?

You are so right, no one has ever ever heard of corruption in MOD.

dipayan · Post by **dipayan** » 27 May 2009 05:33

abhiti wrote:
Parijat Gaur wrote:What exactly are you trying to suggest? Your ridiculous conspiracy theory leaves us with only two possibilities.
1. IA consists of anti patriotic fools who will stop at nothing to sabotage an Indian product, no matter how good it is.
2. IA consists of traitors who are taking bribes from Russia to sabotage Arjun project.
So, among these two choices, which one are you trying to suggest?
You are so right, no one has ever ever heard of corruption in MOD.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 27 May 2009 10:03

Some more information:

http://frontierindia.net/saabs-approach ... #more-4045

Regards,
Khambat Dagha.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2009 11:38

In India, Barracuda has been at work with sophisticated missile projects having provided MSCN systems initially & recently the company confirms having made shipments of MCS kits too.

sounds like our missile TELs are well taken care of.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 May 2009 12:08

abhiti wrote:
Parijat Gaur wrote:What exactly are you trying to suggest? Your ridiculous conspiracy theory leaves us with only two possibilities.
1. IA consists of anti patriotic fools who will stop at nothing to sabotage an Indian product, no matter how good it is.
2. IA consists of traitors who are taking bribes from Russia to sabotage Arjun project.
So, among these two choices, which one are you trying to suggest?
You are so right, no one has ever ever heard of corruption in MOD.

I guess it is a matter of trust. No one can deny the existence of corruption in MOD. However, if years after years, each IA top brass (including chiefs) has been taking kickbacks to derail Arjun project, then IA has become more rotten than I am ready to believe. With this level of corruption, IA will be no better than any other corrupt govt organization in India.
So, till either you or me have any proof for either case, no one is right and it all comes down to what you believe. While you may choose to believe IA to be obscenely corrupt, but without proof, I won't.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 27 May 2009 14:46

Parijat Gaur wrote: I guess it is a matter of trust. No one can deny the existence of corruption in MOD. However, if years after years, each IA top brass (including chiefs) has been taking kickbacks to derail Arjun project, then IA has become more rotten than I am ready to believe. With this level of corruption, IA will be no better than any other corrupt govt organization in India.
So, till either you or me have any proof for either case, no one is right and it all comes down to what you believe. While you may choose to believe IA to be obscenely corrupt, but without proof, I won't.

I think you are exaggerating here: no one is accusing IA to be "obscenely corrupt". We will never have absolute proof one way or the other, or at least not the sort that will satisfy you. However, the IA's attitude towards the Arjun does raises a lot of eyebrows, to put it mildly:

The Arjun must have been subjected to one of the most stringiest trials in IA history. While granted that its a completely new weapons system, its still a tank at the end. It would be useful to compare the amount of trials that Arjun has had before induction with the amount T90 has had. Any bets who has had more?
The IA is far more forgiving of the T90 when it comes to defects (reference the engine overheating issue, the sudden disappearance of Shtora system at trials when reports at acquisition mentioned that they were part of the package etc. etc). The tank was accepted inspite of its faults and the IA is willing to work with the vendor. Contrast this completely with the Arjun handling: nasty comments etc etc etc.
The repeated delay of comparative trials and all measures being done to load them in T90s favor: experienced gun crews, trials in milder months, reluctance to have impartial observers (in fact, the last point is an indicator of how much the DRDO/Avadi mistrusts the IA in this affair. Should we now accuse the DRDO to be "obscenely corrupt"?)
The outright lies or mis statements made by IA wrt Arjun to press. In fact, a serving officer of the IA lied to the parliamentary committee that was holding a review of the Arjun (this was covered in one of the threads on Arjun we keep having ad-nauseum)

I don't think the IA is obscenely corrupt. I think the IA went ahead and ordered the T90 when it had no alternative (Arjun was a lemon back then) in response to the T80 acquisition by the Pakistanis. However, now that Arjun has improved leaps and bounds, the IA is simply being pig headed about it, due to a combination of factors: an unwillingness to admit its mistake (refer the increase in T90 numbers from 300 to 1000 odd (I could be mistaken on the exact figure)), an unwillingness to adopt a change in strategy/attitude that a platform like Arjun requires and yes, in part due to the Natasha lobby.

BTW, we keep repeating the same arguments every 6 months. A sticky should be made on the Arjun affair, along with the MRCA thingy.... would save everyone the time.