Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 04 Jun 2009 20:13

An array like that on an Eitam (6 Panels) on a larger platform will be the answer that all are looking for.

I think the most ideal solution lies in the two choices,
1.the Chapati radome and
2.Wedgetail with a 6 panel Eitam like config

Both have their pros and cons.
vivek-ji what will be the drag like on a wedgetail config? Will a large vertical config not affect maneuverability by acting like a large non-maneuverable fin in a wedgetail? I suppose the drag will be much lesser than the Radome arrangement.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 05 Jun 2009 00:09

Actuall,y I have a feeling the isreali phalcon configuration with isreal is far more superior than our phalcon configuration. Can anyone draw comparisons between the capabilities of both...or that nobody shall know and that will remain classified.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Jun 2009 01:34

viveks,

Perhaps you should visit iai.co.il to check out what they.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 05 Jun 2009 01:55

PratikDas wrote:Conformal antennas do have some disadvantages as captured in this BR post in the Aero India 2009 forum, viz.
Conformal antenna:
- no windows - increased operator fatigue.

Podded Antenna:
- More space and windows also means taht the operators are less fatigued and stressed, a major factor in their performance.

Our Phalcon does not seem to have any windows either.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 05 Jun 2009 13:05

Nice analysis as always.

vivek_ahuja wrote:That ratio is not with lift but with lift coefficient.

Yes that is the definition of induced drag coefficient i.e. induced drag per unit area per unit dynamic pressure. But Induced drag can be calculated as:

D (induced drag) = (Lift)^2/ (Dynamic pressure * pi * Wing area * Aspect ratio * oswald's efficiency factor)

and this is what I mentioned in my post.

Can I have your email ID?

Cheers....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jun 2009 13:51

the E3 doesnt have any windows either, neither does E8

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 750pix.jpg

I think the crew rest area should have windows. its a problem that can be retrofixed.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 05 Jun 2009 14:43

Hi Singha

I understand where are you are coming from for the well being of the crew but ... Windows cause nothing but issues such as reshaping of metal around windows. Extra Rivets, Weaker glass or plastic whatever it is replacing continuous metal sheet. .. extra checks to be done in the maintenance cycles for cracks etc, replacement costs kick in.

Any crewmen(women) coming off the monitors during flight would love to grab a blanket and sleep rather than stare out the window. Lack of windows would also mean that lights out does not have to be enforced on the crew.

My 2 paise

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 05 Jun 2009 15:10

Khalsa wrote:Hi Singha

I understand where are you are coming from for the well being of the crew but ... Windows cause nothing but issues such as reshaping of metal around windows. Extra Rivets, Weaker glass or plastic whatever it is replacing continuous metal sheet. .. extra checks to be done in the maintenance cycles for cracks etc, replacement costs kick in.

Any crewmen(women) coming off the monitors during flight would love to grab a blanket and sleep rather than stare out the window. Lack of windows would also mean that lights out does not have to be enforced on the crew.

My 2 paise

@Khalsa, The window thing was something that Dr. Christopher of CABS mentioned, but yes... interesting points.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Jun 2009 19:52

Still waiting for the interior pics of the IL-76 AEW aircraft that Shiv Aroor promised on his blog. Looks like Aroor got chomped down by the IAF

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/06/tv ... emony.html

From the above link

Coming up: exclusive photos from the inside of the Phalcon. Stay tuned!

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 06 Jun 2009 02:01

About the windows, at least on the IL-76 the entire nose section is one big window, so it may not be that bad. They also may have virtual windows on their monitors that give them a choice of external views.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 06 Jun 2009 02:06

Victor wrote:About the windows, at least on the IL-76 the entire nose section is one big window, so it may not be that bad. They also may have virtual windows on their monitors that give them a choice of external views.

If you are referring to the navigator window in the Ilyushin, one of the key differences between Beriev A-50 and IL-76 is that the navigator window is covered up in the A-50. So no windows there either.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jun 2009 07:06

I was only taking of around 10 windows, 5 on each side,... equipped with blackout kit ofcourse.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Jun 2009 00:19

^^^ CCTV of outside with replay on console for those crew members curious about the world

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jun 2009 11:25

Windows actually add to structural weakness in an aircraft as well as design complexity. And considering that nothing much can be seen for 99% of most long haul flights - I would have thought that only the AWACS pilot needs to see anything. Nobody else needs windows.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jun 2009 11:53

'need' is subjective word. psychologically we need to see the daylight and nighttime change and see the horizon to feel mentally comfortable imo. but ofcourse the reverse argument is that submariners also face the same issue and for much longer. needs some special training to counter all these mental issues maybe.

there is a reason why workplaces that allow natural sunlight and a outside view tend to improve
employee morale and productivity compared to a constant florescent lighting esp of the direct kind and no outside view.

many cos spend a lot to fix that as in bounced lighting off the ceiling, floor to ceiling glass, low height of cube walls, pastel or white colour of furnishings, ....

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 07 Jun 2009 16:37

what windows? what about the submariners? Are they a different breed?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jun 2009 16:45

submariners are a different breed. you cant take anyone and make them one. rigourous mental and physical training is there. no matter what the training, some will lose their sanity stuck in such a confined space for months.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jun 2009 18:00

Singha wrote: there is a reason why workplaces that allow natural sunlight and a outside view tend to improve
employee morale and productivity compared to a constant florescent lighting esp of the direct kind and no outside view.

With respect Singha - some of these occupations are not necessarily very exciting or compellingly interesting and bells and whistles need to be added for "morale" - perhaps because the same job is done day in and day out. Equating the job of personnel on an AWACS needing windows may be stretching it a bit far. There are many professions that put people in rooms under artificial lights for 8 or more hours a day that do not require daylight for morale because the nature of the job and companionship is compellingly interesting and may have deliberately been chosen as a lifestyle. Many anesthesiologists I know enter an operating room at 7 AM and do not emerge for 10 to 12 hours and need no morale boosting because the work is just too interesting and occupies the mind fully, and there is adequate time off work.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 07 Jun 2009 19:11

Most modern air-warfare is at night. AWACS maybe at station 24hrs but they surely won't see anything outside for amusement.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Jun 2009 23:21

JTull-ji, i dont see much evidence that PAF has sufficient night fighting capability or BVR capability to keep us busy. however, your point is well made

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 10 Jun 2009 17:23

woohoo

Inside pics to ze IAF Phalcon :

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/06/ex ... alcon.html

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 10 Jun 2009 19:01

man the IAF has really changed. It used to be that the aircraft insides were fiercely offlimits. now we have the phalcon insider pics within days.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Jun 2009 19:24

True words Jagan gaaru...inspite of all the push and pull...all I could get was within 5 meters of a Mig-25 in late 90s...and now we have the super cool pics of a AWACS no less....

sum · Post by **sum** » 10 Jun 2009 19:54

andy B wrote:woohoo Inside pics to ze IAF Phalcon :

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/06/ex ... alcon.html

Stunning stuff....

Now that this frontier has been breached, cant wait for inside pics of the ATV!!!

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 10 Jun 2009 20:09

Jagan wrote:man the IAF has really changed. It used to be that the aircraft insides were fiercely offlimits. now we have the phalcon insider pics within days.

Jagan, if you look carefully at those pictures, it appears that they are photographs of 'picture board'. I think IAF had put up these pictures boards of AWACS interior and journalists took photographs of the boards (Notice the reflections - Hazy bands and the frames of boards).

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 10 Jun 2009 20:52

good catch sunil, i was wondering what those reflections are

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 11 Jun 2009 01:34

sum wrote:
andy B wrote:woohoo Inside pics to ze IAF Phalcon :

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/06/ex ... alcon.html
Stunning stuff....

Now that this frontier has been breached, cant wait for inside pics of the ATV!!!

Jingo's can never be satisfied

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 11 Jun 2009 02:02

Jagan wrote:good catch sunil, i was wondering what those reflections are

Shiv Arror responds in the comments section that these photos were displayed to journalists by IAF and the ones on his blog were pictures of these boards taken on a camera phone

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 11 Jun 2009 03:52

Those look like very large TFT screens on the seats (For in-flight entertainment ?)

Comms station?

It is more like the Star ship's Transporter room console, "beam me up scotty"!

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 11 Jun 2009 04:33

Wow I have been checking and rechecking those pics time and again since yesterday and it gives me goose bumps everytime

just imagining all the supa-dupa ITvity that would be going on, on all those consoles. I count 11 consoles and the star trek beamer console would be a comms console

Anyway given the way these consoles are configured I wonder where the MC would sit

With this asset the IAF is now closer than ever into becoming what I call a "blue water Air Force"

God Bless and God Speed to the IAF...touching the skies with glory indeed

naird · Post by **naird** » 11 Jun 2009 08:41

p_saggu wrote:Those look like very large TFT screens on the seats (For in-flight entertainment ?)

I always though Phalcon had a sideways sitting arrangement instead of one behind the another. In fact i do remember that in one of the phalcon layout diagrams the sitting arrangement was sideways..Hmm wonder if thats because of the aircraft....

Can anyone shed light one the second picture with all those weird looking dials and knobs ? EW ?

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 11 Jun 2009 09:30

naird wrote:
p_saggu wrote:Those look like very large TFT screens on the seats (For in-flight entertainment ?)

I always though Phalcon had a sideways sitting arrangement instead of one behind the another. In fact i do remember that in one of the phalcon layout diagrams the sitting arrangement was sideways..Hmm wonder if thats because of the aircraft....

Can anyone shed light one the second picture with all those weird looking dials and knobs ? EW ?

looks like something related to the plane rather than the AWACS part. May be a flight engineers console

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 11 Jun 2009 09:43

^^^
This cabin layout looks fishy. The floor is artificial and so are the walls.
This seems to be a mock-up of the crew cabin prepared on the ground.

This proves that the yindoos are passing off an IL-76 with a chapati on top as a AWACS onlee.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 11 Jun 2009 11:06

p_saggu wrote:^^^
This cabin layout looks fishy. The floor is artificial and so are the walls.
This seems to be a mock-up of the crew cabin prepared on the ground.

Nice catch. The straight walls and ceiling gives it up all.

Cheers....

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 12 Jun 2009 11:22

somebody was making fun of TSPaki Blimp based AEW etc.

Read on please

Spies in the sky
http://www.economist.com/science/tq/dis ... d=13725815

edited based on sri sree input

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jun 2009 12:16

IL76 has a large cago hold. I had always claimed the phalcon would be some sort of
'shipping container sized boxes' stuffed inside to get around the fact of there being no
passenger and cargo decks as on a E3 or wedgetail. that would explain the straight
walls and ceilings. there are probably 'raw' areas outside where the eqpt racks are
mounted.

Sree · Post by **Sree** » 12 Jun 2009 13:22

John Snow wrote:somebody was making fun of TSPaki Blimp based AEW etc.

Read on please

Spies in the sky

Jun 4th 2009
From The Economist print edition

Military technology: Blimps equipped with remote-sensing electronics are cheaper than drone aircraft, and have many other advantages

....

http://www.economist.com/science/tq/dis ... d=13725815

OT, but much of the text of this article appeared almost word-for-word in the Pakistani newspaper Dawn, a few days ago.

Regards

Sree

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 15 Jun 2009 00:38

AWACS to boost IAF digitising operations

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 16 Jun 2009 02:25

I know India is planning on buying 3 more Awacs but on a different platform. At least i think its a different platform. Is there any chance that they would ask the Wedgetail to compete not that a decent amount of the bugs have been worked out. Its mounted on the 737 the same as the P-8I

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 13 Jul 2009 21:52

Induction of AWACS