Artillery Discussion Thread

skher · Post by **skher** » 15 Mar 2009 02:15

aditp wrote:^^^^^ However any cooperation with DRDO in developing future arty systems and productionising them within the JV, would inevitably mean sharing of locally developed tech with the foreign firm. This may not go down well with MoD babus, even if not really significant from the national security pov.

Wasn't a problem when the mandarins (they shld at least have a BTech/MBA!) agreed to Brahmos or the many projects with Israel.

Smaller is better and faster.JVs with rich that are in need of big work orders like israel(not many exports b4 us) and Singapore is great.Maybe korea could be next.

Singaporeans have a light anti-tank weapon,MATADOR as well.

It's a humbling fact that an Indian army garrison defended Singapore during colonial rule.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 17 Mar 2009 21:59

DID - Regarding the ultra light howitzer

When were the trials carried out? Didnt hear about it

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 18 Mar 2009 00:23

RayC wrote:
Rahul M wrote:sir, OFB and DRDO are different kettles of fish, one it seems is beyond redemption, the other has some fantastic achievements in niche areas but flounders in others.

I am aware that OFB and DRDO are different. I have worked with both and so I have a fair idea.

Quality Control? That is a new word for PSUs! Well, most. There are also fine PSUs too.

Let me example why we have Russian equipment.

We bought them in exchange for banana and tea!

Our assembly line and maintenance right down to the field units is now based on the Russian technology and for the said equipment and its derivatives. Therefore, to change would mean expenditure, training, new assembly lines, and different type of spares right down to the field level. A huge inventory at the field level and that too in a mobile war, would affect the momentum, to put it simply.

So what do we do ? Continue as it is ?

We are using bows and arrows and we have a very well set up manufacturing and maintanence systems. Our tactics and our strategy is based on them. So we continue wih bows and arrows ?

I think one advantage of going to a new supplier is not merely new (type of) equipment but also to learn some new tactics, new training methods etc.

I think the Indian Army is a bit too much Russia centric and this has to change (for better) to suit our requirements.

K

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 07 Apr 2009 03:24

Israel to build 5 munition plants in Bihar.

Project worth $240 million to be completed in three years.

Israel has signed a whopping $240-million agreement with India to build five artillery munition factories in Bihar over a period of three years.

The munition factories will be built by the Israeli Military Industry (IMI) on the lines of its ordnance factory in the Tel Aviv suburb of Ramat Hasharon, business daily ‘Globes’ reported.

The Israeli defence industry said that the contract was the result of its collaboration with Indian government’s Ordnance Factories Board (OFB).

IMI will be the chief contractor in the deal and will use Israeli and Indian firms as subcontractors.

The state-owned Israeli firm reported $660 million in sales last year, 16 per cent more than in 2007.

The firm’s CEO Avi Felder said the global economic crisis would change the procurement pattern by the world’s leading militaries, which would switch to upgrading existing weapons platforms on short timetables instead of massive investment in new facilities that would take a long time to develop and deliver.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Apr 2009 03:28

Pioneer report on same subject.

NATION | Tuesday, April 7, 2009 | Email | Print |

India, Israel ink Rs 1,200 cr deal

PNS | New Delhi

India and Israel have inked a deal worth over Rs. 1,200 crore ($ 240 million) to revive ammunition production in Nalanda, Bihar. The deal between public sector Ordnance Factory Board and Israeli Military Industry (IMI) comprises four plants, which will be functional within a period of three years.

The deal was signed in the last week of March after the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) gave its nod to the contract in January. The Nalanda plant was set up during the NDA regime when George Fernandes was the Defence Minister and represented Nalanda in the Lok Sabha. The project was supposed to manufacture bi-modular charges for ammunition for artillery guns including the 155mm Bofors gun.

The project, however, could not take off as the South African firm Denel, the main partner, was blacklisted by the UPA Government following charges of kickbacks in the anti-material rifles contract for the Army and the CBI initiated a probe.

{So a whole five years were lost thanks to Renuka Chaowdary!}

Putting the Nalanda project on hold, the UPA Government then set up an expert committee to have fresh look at the project and the panel gave the green signal to the project in 2007, sources said here on Monday.

Following the green signal, the Government floated global tenders and the Government-owned Israeli firm bagged the contract worth over $ 240 million. The IMI would be main contractor, sources said adding the bulk of money for the plants would be put up by India and the plants were scheduled to start producing ammunition within three years.

The production facility within the country would help the Indian industry to have access to the latest technology and faster pace of indigenisation besides expanding the defence industrial base, they said.

Moreover, India within the next few years would go in for more than 1,200 artillery guns of 155mm calibre and logistics facilities within the country would help the Army to maintain operational preparedness without worrying about critical supplies of ammunition.

Incidentally, the Government also gave the nod for a Rs. 10,000 crore deal with Israel for production of medium range surface to air missiles last month. The deal between the Israel Aerospace Industry and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) would help the IAF to build a foolproof air defence shield around the strategic assets of the country.

Israel has emerged as the second biggest defence partner of India since diplomatic relations between the two countries were established in 1990. While Russia remains the biggest arms exporter to India, Israel was fast catching up and could overtake Russia within the next couple of years.

While Russia has the wherewithal to produce big platforms like aircraft, ships and tanks, Israel is the world leader in avionics, information technology, electronic warfare systems and highly complex network centric systems. Moreover, Israel also specialised in upgrades of weapon of systems including tanks, artillery guns, aircraft and radar systems.

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 Apr 2009 09:15

Moreover, India within the next few years would go in for more than 1,200 artillery guns of 155mm calibre

Honestly don't see this happening if the UPA sneaks through...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Apr 2009 16:00

Our glorious "expert committees",whose concept of time is cosmic,taking decades for the AJT,5 years now for an ammo production factory and other "expert committees",who award contracts to cancel them (LOH),or redefine the requirements to suit a favoured nation (US) in the case of both the LOH and attack helo tenders,plus the huge delay in the heavy artillery and SP contests too.I suggest that the next time the expert committe undertakes an evaluation in the field,the IA turn their guns on them and blow them to smithereens as an "unfortunate" accident (using terminology that Jayanthi Natarajan called yesterday's outrages in Assam)! A few babus or two "slipping" into a crevasse at Siachen,or losing their dicks due to frostbite might very well have as salutory effect on such "experts" in the future.

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 26 Apr 2009 20:47

Instead of proposed megadeals with one vendor and long evaluations that go on for ever... why haven't the idea of buying from a region for a similar climate region come up ? In the sense of a market with tested operative cold climate systems in the Nordic countries (Bofors mainly but also German guns) and in hot weather we have South African gun systems (Denel) and also Israel in some regard (soltam).

Now the idea sounds to be to spend a decade trying to find a gun that is perfect in every possible way but maybe such a gun just simply doesn't exist.

Thoughts?

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 27 Apr 2009 10:12

Philip wrote:Our glorious "expert committees",whose concept of time is cosmic,taking decades for the AJT,5 years now for an ammo production factory and other "expert committees",who award contracts to cancel them (LOH),or redefine the requirements to suit a favoured nation (US) in the case of both the LOH and attack helo tenders,plus the huge delay in the heavy artillery and SP contests too.

Exactly my feeling...5 years to just compare a technology and people call DRDO inefficient when they take a decade to build one! All this when finally the orders are anyway given based on election funds.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 05 Jun 2009 19:19

Any news on delivery of second batch of smerch system? AFAIK was supposed to happen around this time.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 06 Jun 2009 06:32

With both IMI and Singapore technology blacklisted, our artillery acquisition hits another roadblock! ST was hot favorite to win light howitzer contest and with IMI, the jinxed Nalanda project does in to hibernation again.

I bet there will be fresh RFP for Light howitzer acquisition as BAE is the only contender left!

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 06 Jun 2009 11:46

"ST was hot favorite to win light howitzer contest "

lol and now you know why....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jun 2009 12:16

seems like everyone but US and Russian cos will end up getting banned and shown the door.

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 06 Jun 2009 13:33

Hi

I might be going overboard here....but can we not , Bharat Rakshak as a single entity concerned about this countries security, use the Right to Information and do something about this. We need not use the info to go to court but with so many people watching BR , I think BR has the required reach to cause some impact and that will also be a natural progression, the next stage (A civilian watchdog on defense), of the commendable job that is being done here already...

Once again I might be overstepping ...apologies if so.....

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Jun 2009 13:50

sunilUpa wrote:With both IMI and Singapore technology blacklisted, our artillery acquisition hits another roadblock! ST was hot favorite to win light howitzer contest and with IMI, the jinxed Nalanda project does in to hibernation again.

I bet there will be fresh RFP for Light howitzer acquisition as BAE is the only contender left!

And once again we axe ourselves on the foot....

Bye bye for atleast 10+ years for any dream of the IA getting ultra light howitzers and badly needed ammo for their existing(but very fast depleting) howitzers..

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 06 Jun 2009 14:43

why dont the CBI does any thing about the corruption spread inside the defence industry and babu den ?
Here we have to take it as an assumption that cbeye is merely an orgz that works what neta/babu tell them to, not an unbiased actor in Indian context,and is certainly ineffective as well,acts only when something happens.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 06 Jun 2009 14:55

Singha wrote:seems like everyone but US and Russian cos will end up getting banned and shown the door.

CORRECTIONS

seems like everyone but Russian cos will end up getting banned and shown the door.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 06 Jun 2009 16:24

sunilUpa wrote:With both IMI and Singapore technology blacklisted, our artillery acquisition hits another roadblock! ST was hot favorite to win light howitzer contest and with IMI, the jinxed Nalanda project does in to hibernation again.

I bet there will be fresh RFP for Light howitzer acquisition as BAE is the only contender left!

I was wondering why the communist suddenly decided to nab retired OFB manager, now it all makes sense. Agenda is now clear - Indian artillery suffers and Israeli participation suffers. Meanwhile those who don't know 99% of Indian babus are corrupt. You can just walk into any office and arrest ANYONE. The arrests usually happen for vigillance bureau to complete its numbers OR for vigillance to make money OR agendas of powerful.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Jun 2009 20:55

I was wondering why the communist suddenly decided to nab retired OFB manager, now it all makes sense.

Which communist?

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 07 Jun 2009 00:34

abhiti wrote:
I was wondering why the communist suddenly decided to nab retired OFB manager, now it all makes sense. Agenda is now clear - Indian artillery suffers and Israeli participation suffers. Meanwhile those who don't know 99% of Indian babus are corrupt. You can just walk into any office and arrest ANYONE. The arrests usually happen for vigillance bureau to complete its numbers OR for vigillance to make money OR agendas of powerful.

Corruption is a very serious national security risk. I applaud Antony for taking on these thieves.

I don't believe that 99% of Indian bureaucrats are corrupt. Even if many are, well, now is the time to change.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jun 2009 12:12

now that we are 'friends' with america again , can't the Nalanda 155mm shell plant be revived using the old vendor.

I know its a decade lost doing nothing but arriving back at same point, but we are like this onree

meantime we continue to pay high prices for imported shells esp of the "base bleed" variety

at one time during NDA regime
- Bhim was on track
- Denel was going to transfer tech for its G6 155mm towed cannon
- Nalanda shell plant was supposed to be ongoing

imagine what a regiment of Bhims armed with 50km range shells and smart submunitions could do ?

Div · Post by **Div** » 07 Jun 2009 21:39

Singha wrote:now that we are 'friends' with america again , can't the Nalanda 155mm shell plant be revived using the old vendor.

I know its a decade lost doing nothing but arriving back at same point, but we are like this onree

meantime we continue to pay high prices for imported shells esp of the "base bleed" variety

at one time during NDA regime
- Bhim was on track
- Denel was going to transfer tech for its G6 155mm towed cannon
- Nalanda shell plant was supposed to be ongoing

imagine what a regiment of Bhims armed with 50km range shells and smart submunitions could do ?

Ah yes...the good ole days.

Isn't Nalanda back on track with Israeli collaboration? I thought I read something about that in the last month of so.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 08 Jun 2009 03:34

Avarachan wrote:Corruption is a very serious national security risk. I applaud Antony for taking on these thieves. I don't believe that 99% of Indian bureaucrats are corrupt. Even if many are, well, now is the time to change.

I agree that corruption is what keeps India India. But then why focus on some low run person. Such babus (even directors) can do nothing unless IAS Secretary and Minister gets a share! Why do you think Congress approved so many deals with Israel in the middle of elections? Just good thinking is it? Or election fund? Benazir Bhutto's assets were placed at billions of dollars and that is Pak 7 times smaller than India. If you need to eliminate corruption you need to start at top i.e. Congress leadership, CPM leadership, all chief ministers, IAS/IPS/IRS/Courts. This isolated arrests by Police in Bengal wouldn't get you anything. I will give you another example of who was arrested in corruption a few weeks before his retirement - CBI director responsible for implicating communist leader in rape and murder in Nandigram! And yes 99% of babus are corrupt, I have seen Indian govt from far too close than I wish to remember. I will believe that someone is fighting corruption when I see at least 50% of ministers and IAS secretaries behind bars. So far CBI is busy shielding Quatrochi, I can bet that not one Cabinet minister will be arrested in next five year term as was in the last five year.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 08 Jun 2009 06:26

Antony says no one found guilty in ordnance scam will be spared

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 10 Jun 2009 03:48

Defence scandals continue to haunt Army's artillery plans

But scandals swirling around defence deals have ensured the 1.2-million Army has not inducted any single new artillery gun for over 23 years now.

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 10 Jun 2009 04:19

Gaurav_S wrote:Antony says no one found guilty in ordnance scam will be spared

Will Antony also ensure the armed forces are well equipped to wade off threats? Is he a anti-Corruption minister or the DefMin?

naird · Post by **naird** » 10 Jun 2009 06:40

So who all is in the race now ? Singapore tech is out , Denel is out ...I believe only Soltam and BAe Bofor's remain i believe....Wasnt there some case against Soltam also ?

Which gun system is Bofor's bringing into race ? are they bringing Bofor's archer ?? Helluva system.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 10 Jun 2009 08:33

India is no good at handling multi-vendor selection. Too many options spoils money eating babus and corrupt officials. and too much competition brings in huge kickbacks (which is inevitable if big parties are involved).

It would be better if we just go for some damn Russian gun with no tension. At least we will have something rather then another Hawk like acquisition.

I am reading about this artillery competition since i was in +2, now i am in service. Same is gonna happen with MRCA. jeez these guys have some patience.....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Jun 2009 08:52

isn't 23 scandalling years good enough for drdo?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 10 Jun 2009 09:02

if the babus had released the moolah for the same. If they said anyway we are going to get artillery in 2-3 years, why do you need money for research on artillery?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Jun 2009 18:51

If this joke continues any longer,we'll have to send the MOD babus with catapluts to the frontline!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 11 Jun 2009 21:44

George Fernandez sent some!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Jun 2009 00:49

sum wrote:
sunilUpa wrote:With both IMI and Singapore technology blacklisted, our artillery acquisition hits another roadblock! ST was hot favorite to win light howitzer contest and with IMI, the jinxed Nalanda project does in to hibernation again.

I bet there will be fresh RFP for Light howitzer acquisition as BAE is the only contender left!
And once again we axe ourselves on the foot....

Bye bye for atleast 10+ years for any dream of the IA getting ultra light howitzers and badly needed ammo for their existing(but very fast depleting) howitzers..

I have a theory about this. Are we being sucker punched? It repeats with such monotonous regularity.

It seems so easy to do, meaning create halla, get the firms banned and and effectively stop the IN, IAF, IA from getting arms, missiles or aircraft.

Cheaper that entering a arms race. Seems like something the chinks would do. A few tens of thousand dollars, pliable journalists, planted articles, bribed MPs to raise such issues in parliament and the nations weapon acquisition plans go for a six.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 12 Jun 2009 02:32

Let History repeat with another Battle of Panipat in old ishtyle shall be fought again without Artillary. Bappu ke Bandars at the helm.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 12 Jun 2009 10:09

Gaurav_S wrote:Antony says no one found guilty in ordnance scam will be spared

If somebody is found guilty there is nothing left for Anthony to do! The point is whether he will be able to investigate the corrupt persons? Let me answer - NO!

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Jun 2009 10:14

Cheaper that entering a arms race. Seems like something the chinks would do. A few tens of thousand dollars, pliable journalists, planted articles, bribed MPs to raise such issues in parliament and the nations weapon acquisition plans go for a six.

India would make a dream enemy....just pump in a few 1000 $ and set back the enemy military by a few years at least!!!!

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 12 Jun 2009 10:24

Gerard wrote:Defence scandals continue to haunt Army's artillery plans
But scandals swirling around defence deals have ensured the 1.2-million Army has not inducted any single new artillery gun for over 23 years now.

Gun sellers and their pimps are trying to hype the importance of import. One has to note the artillery modernization IS takaing place through Smerch, Pinaka, Grad upgrade, 155mm upgradation kits etc

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 12 Jun 2009 11:35

Antony is always very good with words even in Julis Ceaser case (Yet Brutus is a honorable man... etc)

In this case Antony said

"No One found guilty" that means No one is guilty it could be many and will be spared. QED

Mark my words Antony might have added in samll print

Vinito · Post by **Vinito** » 20 Jun 2009 00:28

naird wrote:So who all is in the race now ? Singapore tech is out , Denel is out ...I believe only Soltam and BAe Bofor's remain i believe....Wasnt there some case against Soltam also ?

Which gun system is Bofor's bringing into race ? are they bringing Bofor's archer ?? Helluva system.

Although the Soltam system looks good the Bofors Archer is awesome. Autoloader, auto gun layin, shoot and scoot....it will be just what we need....the price, however may not be sumthing we can afford given the volumes. This gun also has the ability to fire the BONUS rounds which is an additional advantage

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 20 Jun 2009 07:36

Kersi D wrote:

So what do we do ? Continue as it is ?

We are using bows and arrows and we have a very well set up manufacturing and maintanence systems. Our tactics and our strategy is based on them. So we continue wih bows and arrows ?

I think one advantage of going to a new supplier is not merely new (type of) equipment but also to learn some new tactics, new training methods etc.

I think the Indian Army is a bit too much Russia centric and this has to change (for better) to suit our requirements.

K

We are not actually using bows and arrows.

It is easier for the air force to change since the maintenance facilities is located at one place. That is why they can change their supplier of aircraft faster than the Army.

In the army, There are four echelons of EME repair support that transcends from the unit in the forward area to Base Repairs in the rear.

The stores are held by Ordinance Depots to Ordnance units in the field.

If there is an assortment of equipment, the inventory will get large and interoperability reduced. This would lead to a complex situation in procurement, stocking and logistic management. It is like an airline's efficiency flying a host of assorted aircraft vs an airline that is flying one type of aircraft or more than one type of aircraft from the same company.

But, yes, if a country provides an equipment better than another for the same task, then surely one should buy the better equipment.