Indian Naval Discussion

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 15 Jun 2009 01:53

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:gorshkov is still cheaper despite price hike of 1.2 billion in addition to initial price 946 million knowing that russkies building whole ship inside out with all new systems.

It's not about good deal or bad deal, but It's about they walk away from the deal and now asking for more money and black mail which is totally not so business. And they are doing to The friend who was supporter of them and more than friend when their defense industry was dying.

Indian policies changed toward uncle sam , at least russkies should keep it in mind and settle with less hike or original deal. They lost many other deal due to that and voice are raising at south block towards their attitude. They have to pray for MRCA deal and for others too as israeli are raising their share in defense deal. Interesting is after finding israeli in scam their deal was approved and still they are considered for many defense deal.

Ankit

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 15 Jun 2009 02:48

first thing its not black mailing,for the ship being built inside out,
today cost of fuel,parts is sky high and so will the cost of 16 month sea trial will be high as well

today even a 7000 tons type45 destroyer cost a billion dollar ,so how a 44000 tons gorshkov can cost less than a billion dollars

and you said russia blackmailed india over ship,
then you better think 10 times first

india blackmailed russia for 7 years over ship from 1996 to 2004,

if india had bought this ship even for scrap metal price and refurbish it ,then in 1997 russian economy was weak and they had accepted lower price and the same ship would have cost less than a billion dollars which is now costing 2 billion today

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 15 Jun 2009 02:51

and india blackmail a friend over a ship for 7 years due to no one was wanted that ship so in last russkies said we give you this ship for free ,and this is what we wanted ,so who blackmailed first

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 15 Jun 2009 03:24

Thanks. Any luck with the other article by Iskander Rehman.

Gerard wrote:
csharma wrote:Does anyone have the pdfs of the articles listed below. Each article costs $30!
Walter C. Ladwig III, “Delhi’s Pacific Ambition: Naval Power, ‘Look East,’ and India’s Emerging Role in the Asia-Pacific,” Asian Security, Vol. 5, No. 2 (June 2009).
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mert1769/Pacific%20Ambition.pdf

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 15 Jun 2009 03:39

Gerard wrote:
csharma wrote:Does anyone have the pdfs of the articles listed below. Each article costs $30!
Walter C. Ladwig III, “Delhi’s Pacific Ambition: Naval Power, ‘Look East,’ and India’s Emerging Role in the Asia-Pacific,” Asian Security, Vol. 5, No. 2 (June 2009).
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mert1769/Pacific%20Ambition.pdf

Thanks a ton man.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 15 Jun 2009 04:53

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:first thing its not black mailing,for the ship being built inside out,
today cost of fuel,parts is sky high and so will the cost of 16 month sea trial will be high as well

India made deal for a ship which was about to dump in junk yard. Deal was not meant for brand new ship. Russian took the deal as to revive their shipyard which was also about to close. I was saying that India is expanding and implementing it's blue water NAVY and look for east strategies, when Russian taking it as granted and taking advantage of it as India badly needed at least 3-4 Aircraft careers by 2020, which is well known.

There are also other aspects I mentioned in my previous pot , other than black mail. We can go on this for long but this is my final post on this.

Ankit

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 15 Jun 2009 06:16

Deal was not meant for brand new ship. Russian took the deal as to revive their shipyard which was also about to close

-------------------------------------------------\

doesn't matter the deal was meant for brand new ship or not.
ship undergoing to extensive refits

and india has paid till now 700 million out of 946 million initial price.
so cost escalation comes only after india pays remaining 246 million

and looking at ship in current position of ship and as said by the ex CEO of sevmash work done on gorshkov is equal to 2 destroyers which definitely cost more than 700 million

so how much of this 700 million paid can be used to revive the shipyard

as that shipyard is too big and yes there are other orders for building other petroleum/civilian related marine systems there and those orders cost much more than price of gorshkov

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 15 Jun 2009 06:18

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:and india blackmail a friend over a ship for 7 years due to no one was wanted that ship so in last russkies said we give you this ship for free ,and this is what we wanted ,so who blackmailed first

Brother, are you seriously joking?
First of all, you are assuming that Indian economy was not in the problem same as Russian one.
There was not any stable Indian political party there to do negotiation and the one that came was not impressed by Russians during Kargil problem and delivery of couple of other ships.
And an immediate period before that was not that well either with Russians listening to Americans all the time in every deal with Indian. An example being rocket engines.
We all know how helping Russians out with Su30 (when their economy was bad) worked out for India.
Yes, cost of fuel is high but not for Russians. They god damn produce it.

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 15 Jun 2009 06:36

They god damn produce it.
-------------------------------------
it doesn't mean its free

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 15 Jun 2009 06:37

and shipyard has to buy the fuel for sea trials

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 15 Jun 2009 06:41

and those ships got delayed how long????

india going for more krivak frigates as they are still cheaper than similar western stuff

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 15 Jun 2009 06:53

First of all, you are assuming that Indian economy was not in the problem same as Russian one.
There was not any stable Indian political party there to do negotiation and the one that came was not impressed by Russians during Kargil problem and delivery of couple of other ships.
And an immediate period before that was not that well either with Russians listening to Americans all the time in every deal with Indian. An example being rocket engines.
We all know how helping Russians out with Su30 (when their economy was bad) worked out for India.
-----------------------------------------
so what else you want

russian did whatever system we asked for su30

what went wrong if we did not get tech transfer for cryogenic engine but the russians worked other way atleast we had cryogenic engine to be operated with GSLV.and its beter than nothing when no one was giving us cryogenic engine

and yes there is nothing wrong in gorshkov deal costing 2 billion,and its not bad for a ship to be operated for next 40 years,for similar size of ship how much we have to pay if we buy from west?????

how much our own ADS going to cost,projected cost is 4-5 billion and it may get delayed with escalated cost

ticky · Post by **ticky** » 15 Jun 2009 08:08

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:Deal was not meant for brand new ship. Russian took the deal as to revive their shipyard which was also about to close
-------------------------------------------------\

doesn't matter the deal was meant for brand new ship or not.
ship undergoing to extensive refits

and india has paid till now 700 million out of 946 million initial price.
so cost escalation comes only after india pays remaining 246 million

and looking at ship in current position of ship and as said by the ex CEO of sevmash work done on gorshkov is equal to 2 destroyers which definitely cost more than 700 million

so how much of this 700 million paid can be used to revive the shipyard
as that shipyard is too big and yes there are other orders for building other petroleum/civilian related marine systems there and those orders cost much more than price of gorshkov

Did you by any chance stop to consider the meaning of the word "CONTRACT" and then further examine what "FIXED PRICE CONTRACT" means?

India had a fixed price contract for the refurbishment and delivery of Gorskov. It was sevmash & ultimately russia's responsibility to deliver the ship within the price already agreed to. It doesn't matter whether work done on the ship is equal to 2 destroyer or a fleet of Death Star with klingon cloaking device thrown in, the price is fixed because contract says so.
Since then, they have gone on their word and are now whining & b1tching. Apparently, the navy/govt wants the carrier bad and so they are humoring the russians.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 15 Jun 2009 08:20

Is this guy for real. Pal get a grammar chcek(

) before you post.

Russia is not being fair on the Gorshkov issue. Their shipyard underestimated or whatever, they signed a contract knowing the implications. Now they are going back on the price and also the delivery schedule. If normal business was conducted like this, the vendor would have been blacklisted by the buyer by now.

Of course you sound Russian so I do not expect you to understand.

ticky · Post by **ticky** » 15 Jun 2009 08:36

Vivek K wrote:Is this guy for real. Pal get a grammar chcek( ) before you post.

Heh heh.. good for you, you didn't say spell

Sorry just couldn't resist

added later
At post below..... aargh, help me get my fat big foot out of my mouth, its stuck

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 15 Jun 2009 08:41

Ticky, did you note the smiley next to chcek??

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 15 Jun 2009 11:14

BR Forums are being overrun by all the Russi, Amriki and Israeli agents whose only aim seems to be to impress the BR memebers that their country's systems are best. Mods should open a new thread for weapons marketing agents for such trolls to save us the trouble of wading through their useless comments.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 15 Jun 2009 11:21

In the same issues there is also an article on "The Evolution of China's Naval Strategy and Capabilities: From 'Near Coast' and 'Near Seas' to 'Far Seas'"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... a911807485
by a professor at the U.S. Naval War College

Aah that must be our dear friend and fellow BRite Dr. Tim ( after gleaning BR wisdom

)

By the way where is our original BRite Russian friend who was all for T-80 and no Arjun?

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 15 Jun 2009 11:46

Russia is not being fair on the Gorshkov issue. Their shipyard underestimated or whatever, they signed a contract knowing the implications. Now they are going back on the price and also the delivery schedule. If normal business was conducted like this, the vendor would have been blacklisted by the buyer by now.

the cost escalation of gorky was unfortunate but unavoidable

the reasons have been discussed number of times in this forum and that includes ,uinrealistic low cost to unavailability of drawings to condition of the ship yard at that point of time

this is not a standard commercial project and the fixed price contract is and never was applicable to this project -so please stop comparing rebuild an aircraft carrier to a software sale

most complicated projects get delayed because lot of unforeseen factors come into play including change in customer wishes in course of the project all of which affects the cost and timeline

in this case we shall never know what factors changed apart from known factors like scope of supply et c

along with sevmash even IN did not obviously comprehend the extent of work required so the contract signed was untenable right from the start

am not justifying the cost escalation but most likely it is justified -like some one said how much do we spend for a delhi class even if everything is made and bought and supervised in india .and that is only 6900 ton and that to build it new much less complication than modifying an old ship to new duty

and what is the total cost including sea trials -do you have any figures -only if we get some figures then we can compare

my information is the cost of sea trial of any indian built ship is atleast 10-15% cost of the ship that too when everything is brand new and equipment warranty is in place for free replacement by OEM suppliers

Mig 29K fiasco is typical of our shoddy decision making process =what stopped MOD from buying all the 50 odd in one go everyone knew we will need more than16 the gorky alone can embark 28 if the no of helos is reduced and ADS will have an equal number plus some reserve and some to be based in naval air stations

right form day one we knew we need around 4 squadrons of Mig 29K why do you now crib because the price have gone up to 75 million .This is also inevitable during purchase Mig 29 K was not fully developed product -now it ios a proven product so we have to pay the full price the market will bear

we refused to take product development risk -so we have to pay the price for a risk free developed product -all part of business game

remember what happened when dassualt offered the Mirage 2000 know and our air force and our DOD refused and after 10 years went crying to french for the same deal .-this is what happens if you have incompetent people responsible for military procurement

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 15 Jun 2009 12:13

Oh boy when Satlin's organs are being fired a tactical ( hope I spelled it right

) withdrawl is better than valou

r

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Jun 2009 12:46

What is the problem with Groshkov deal now ?

Is this a lifafa type report from NDTV ?

The Def Sec has visited Moscow , and it seems both the side have decided to bow down and by and large agreed to some price , pending final negotiation and seal next month.

The 29K deal was always for 16 + 29 Mig-29K , now we dont know what configuration will the IN opt for last 29K , and depending on the bells and whistles the price may vary.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 15 Jun 2009 17:01

the price most likely have been finalized with Russians reducing the extent of escalation to some extent and Indian side more or less accepting the extra price - also a nice photo op was in sevmash with the gorky on background -but still lets wait for the official confirmation - i think about 280 million will be released immediately followed by other tranches but agin let wait for confirmation

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 15 Jun 2009 17:11

Shankar wrote: the cost escalation of gorky was unfortunate but unavoidable

the reasons have been discussed number of times in this forum and that includes ,uinrealistic low cost to unavailability of drawings to condition of the ship yard at that point of time

this is not a standard commercial project and the fixed price contract is and never was applicable to this project -so please stop comparing rebuild an aircraft carrier to a software sale

most complicated projects get delayed because lot of unforeseen factors come into play including change in customer wishes in course of the project all of which affects the cost and timeline

in this case we shall never know what factors changed apart from known factors like scope of supply et c

along with sevmash even IN did not obviously comprehend the extent of work required so the contract signed was untenable right from the start

am not justifying the cost escalation but most likely it is justified -like some one said how much do we spend for a delhi class even if everything is made and bought and supervised in india .and that is only 6900 ton and that to build it new much less complication than modifying an old ship to new duty

and what is the total cost including sea trials -do you have any figures -only if we get some figures then we can compare

my information is the cost of sea trial of any indian built ship is atleast 10-15% cost of the ship that too when everything is brand new and equipment warranty is in place for free replacement by OEM suppliers

All things you said would have been ok if Russia was not supposed to be our "strategic partner". If this is how ur partner behaves, it is better not to have one. All i am saying is if tommorrow India gives other contracts to Americans and Europeans, please dont lobby for Russia. After all we are looking after our interests.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 15 Jun 2009 18:19

All things you said would have been ok if Russia was not supposed to be our "strategic partner". If this is how ur partner behaves, it is better not to have one. All i am saying is if tommorrow India gives other contracts to Americans and Europeans, please dont lobby for Russia. After all we are looking after our interests.

Please dont misunderstand the term strategic partner .Russia surely is that is why it is giving us the use of one its most advanced nuclear attack submarine NERPA in case you are not aware of the fact and even before they gave us another which allowed the indian navy to feel comfortable operating extended missions in a nuclear sub

as regards behavior and assuming you are comparing with US -Please recall after shakti blast indian lca team was kicked out of LM offices without explanation -russia never in its 60 year old history have gone amywhere near that kind of disgusting behavior .Whiel us cut of all supplies Russia gave us the latest aircraft technology modifying to our requirement and now the nuclear sub

that is strategic partner

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 15 Jun 2009 18:29

Russi, Amriki and Israeli agents whose only aim seems to be to impress the BR memebers that their country's systems are best
-----------------------------------------------------\
no one here lobby for any one here ,its everyone's personnel thinking and they post it here

and yes its true everyone shouting for price increase it was india who dragged negotiations on ship for 7 years otherwise ship would have been delivered by 2004 if india had bought the ship in 1996 and that too within 1 billion price.

now same ship costing 2 billion dollars just because of india wanted that ship for free and this too much greediness dragged the negotiations

and today we have to pay the price of this greediness to get that ship for free

same again what would have gone wrong if india had bought 46 mig29k in one go despite knowing they will need more of them for navy,and this could save a billion dollars straight

so india itself lost 2 billion one for greediness and second for its lazyness

and as for delay a scorpene submarine taking 9 years to commisision so groky is much bigger task than that

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 15 Jun 2009 18:31

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:First of all, you are assuming that Indian economy was not in the problem same as Russian one.
There was not any stable Indian political party there to do negotiation and the one that came was not impressed by Russians during Kargil problem and delivery of couple of other ships.
And an immediate period before that was not that well either with Russians listening to Americans all the time in every deal with Indian. An example being rocket engines.
We all know how helping Russians out with Su30 (when their economy was bad) worked out for India.
-----------------------------------------
so what else you want

russian did whatever system we asked for su30

what went wrong if we did not get tech transfer for cryogenic engine but the russians worked other way atleast we had cryogenic engine to be operated with GSLV.and its beter than nothing when no one was giving us cryogenic engine

and yes there is nothing wrong in gorshkov deal costing 2 billion,and its not bad for a ship to be operated for next 40 years,for similar size of ship how much we have to pay if we buy from west?????

how much our own ADS going to cost,projected cost is 4-5 billion and it may get delayed with escalated cost

andrew ji ,kya aapko koi takleef hai ??,aap to bina ruke post pe post kiye jaa rahe hain, lagta hai dhanda manda hai
i would suggest you to read this for better answers
http://docs.dal.net/docs/findoperhi.html

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 15 Jun 2009 18:33

samay it seems you don't like me,because i post truth

you all here blaming here russia its one sided,better also look at what india did wrong from its side

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 15 Jun 2009 18:39

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:samay it seems you don't like me

aisa nahi hai sir, sir ye forum India key security discussions par hai ,naa ki saaman bechne ke liye

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Jun 2009 18:45

Samay,

Let it slide.

Meanwhile,

US P8I aircraft at INS Rajali soon

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 15 Jun 2009 18:49

i am also indian like you all, and i am no one's agent

but i came to know that you all here started targeting me and calling me russian agent,saamaan bechna etc etc rather than keeping the discussion on the issues.

and this is not good and i never criticized anyone,

and it seems what i am posting you all don't like that

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Jun 2009 19:02

The contours of the Gorshkov deal are too well known now,and after India and Russia have finally agreed upon the price,thyere is no to beat the vessl to death As far as signing deals with follow on numbers,I cannot understand the ogic of the MOD,NOT the IN,as with the Talwars we were offered three more at the original price,but allowed the date to lapse and shortly after ordered three more! The same seems to be happening with the MIG-29Ks,even after the various IN chiefs of recent times have all said that more will be definitely ordered not just for the Gorshkov but also for the IAC being built at Cochin.This will up the number to at least 60+,with more to come when the three homebuilt carriers start arriving as planned.The naval version of the LCA will take at least 4-5 years before it canbve comissioned from the pace at which it is being developed and will not be available forthe first carrier when it is launched/commissioned.

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 15 Jun 2009 19:07

will P8I get delayed like wedgetail aewacs or will it come on time????

and what superiority its got when it comes to avionics compared to one tu142 upgraded by israel

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 15 Jun 2009 19:09

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote: now same ship costing 2 billion dollars just because of india wanted that ship for free and this too much greediness dragged the negotiations

Here you go again. Admins, do we have to sit around and take this sort of nonsense/abuse from "strategic partners". Russia accepted a contract but now we are "greedy"? I demand an apology from this poster.

This is getting to the realms of being ludicrous.

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 15 Jun 2009 19:23

Here you go again. Admins, do we have to sit around and take this sort of nonsense/abuse from "strategic partners". Russia accepted a contract but now we are "greedy"? I demand an apology from this poster.

This is getting to the realms of being ludicrous.
-------------------------------------------------------
this is called not listening to truth

and this mean if india had accepted ship in 1996 it would have cost us less than a billion dollars then and ship would have been delivered by 2004.
but our own greediness to get the ship for free dragged negotiations for 7 years and now we have to pay so who was at fault in 1996.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 15 Jun 2009 19:54

India, France to hold joint naval exercise off Brittany

New Delhi (IANS): The Indian and French navies, which have been conducting the "Varuna" joint exercise for the past seven years, will engage outside Indian waters for the first time when the war game is conducted off the coast of Brittany June 27-July 4.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 15 Jun 2009 20:54

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:i am also indian like you all, and i am no one's agent

but i came to know that you all here started targeting me and calling me russian agent,saamaan bechna etc etc rather than keeping the discussion on the issues.

and this is not good and i never criticized anyone,

and it seems what i am posting you all don't like that

Andrew,
Sir,your reasoning is sound and keep it up
You are taking fact,I am agree with you.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jun 2009 21:09

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote: but our own greediness to get the ship for free dragged negotiations for 7 years and now we have to pay so who was at fault in 1996.

Well the world works like this. I am allowed o be greedy. Not others. If I am greedy it is good. If others are greedy it is bad. So what is wrong with India being greedy and not wanting Russia to be greedy?

If you go to Russia rakshak Forum. you will find people saying exactly the opposite. It's not a big deal. Besides, with Indians being corrupt - we would like the Russians to be corrupt too. That is part of our greediness.

We will be greedy and corrupt, and we will accuse Russia of being greedy. Not difficult to understand is it? In India the attitude to take is called "Relax, Have a Charminar"

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 15 Jun 2009 21:44

What appears to be lacking in consideration when making posts on Gorky deal are :
1. Gorky was built in Ukraine and not Russia.
2. Ukraine never parted with Gorkys' Buleprints.
3. The Shipyard selected for refurbishment/upgrade was never qualified for this task and had no clue how to go about it in absence of Blueprints, Previous AC shipbuilding experience/expertise. So they adopted 'trial and error' strategy which resulted in cost/time overrun.
4. India was kept in the dark about the AC actual country of manufacture and fate of Blueprints missing.
5. India signed the deal without properly ascertaining all the facts and ramifications. Seems it was mostly done on 'trust' and the deal was 'open-ended' and not the proper contractual agreement.
6. India should have got the Gorky refurbished/upgraded in Ukraine as all soviet era Aircraft Carriers/Cruisers were built there.
7.Since the fault lies on the both sides only a honourable COMPROMISE seems to be the answer which i believe has already been arrived at and agreed upon.
8. Gorky has provided Russians and the SVEMSH shipyard in particular AC Shipbuilding expertise which they lacked and never possessed.
9. After Putin's election to the Presidency of Russia, the country suddenly became self-confident to the point of becoming 'cocky' towards its neighbours and India. The ever sky rocketing prices of Oil/Gas had also a lot to do with this change of attitude.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 15 Jun 2009 21:54

Nirmal - I agree that there should be a dignified compromise that suits both parties. As put so crassly earlier, it was not India's "greediness" alone that was at fault, but also Russian failure to properly estimate the magnitude of work involved that was gravely at fault. Maybe the Russian intention was to draw India into the contract which would stop them from looking elsewhere and then raise the prices once they were trapped. This is a common widely employed commercial tactic.

Some measure of compromise and goodwill would serve to keep this "mutually beneficial" strategic partnership going.

Anyone that has managed a project or done project financing understands that the numbers represent the best estimate. How close they finally are to the actual costs depends on the quality of the estimate and the experience of the estimator. Every estimate has a measure of contingent scenarios that are built in. When an estimate goes this wrong, it generally points to something else.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Jun 2009 22:27

When India made the deal, Russia was in the pits - which si why they accepted the deal. When the Russian eco turned around and they no longer had to depend on India and India was in a bind the pendulum swung the other way. So, both got what they deserved.

Need to move on from the Gorky. That one ship will not make or break the relationship Russia - which will never be the same for more reasons than this one ship.