Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 May 2009 14:56

^^ Fair enough. I must admit that IA's attitude towards Arjun does not inspire much confidence. However you are right. The discussion in this thread do run in circles. I was just miffed at some absurd statements in a particular post but this will be my last post on this subject.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 May 2009 18:15

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10840

This is an awesome media report on arjun! thalia ddm.

tripathi · Post by **tripathi** » 02 Jun 2009 00:43

DRDO to deliver 79 Arjun battle tanks to Army

Chennai: Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) in Avadi near Chennai will deliver 79 Arjun main battle tank (MBT), which was built indigenously by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), by March 2010. Each tank was built for Rs 19 crore.

After flagging off 16 MBT Arjun tanks from CVRDE, Avadi which was handed over to the Army, A Sivathanu Pillai, scientist and chief controller, research and development, DRDO, ministry of defence said total order placed by the army was 124 tanks. Of this 45 have been delivered. Remaining will be delivered by March 2010.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 02 Jun 2009 19:30

suryag wrote:Well the press release if at all we have one .....

..............The Arjun has been in dev since JC was born and still not acceptable to the army and yada yada

You mean our JCage or Jesus Christ !!!!

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Jun 2009 22:27

Won't this help China upgrade its heavy military transports technology?

GM deals Hummer to Chinese buyer

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 02 Jun 2009 22:32

Kersi D wrote:
You mean our JCage or Jesus Christ !!!!

Jesus Christ

bhavin · Post by **bhavin** » 03 Jun 2009 01:29

Xpost from PRC Economy:

bhavin wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:X-posting from the military (armored vehicles) thread:

Won't this help China upgrade its heavy military transports technology?

GM deals Hummer to Chinese buyer

Kakkaji,

It is mentioned in the article that military humvees are made by A M General and is a completely different company. GM has just bought the rights to the Hummer name... So it looks like the sale will go through and hopefully the military tech will not pass hands.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 03 Jun 2009 01:45

Thanks bhavin!

I guess I was in too much of a hurry to post, so I did not notice the relevant paragraph.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 04 Jun 2009 17:24

Tanaji wrote:Compare the indecent haste with which the T-90s were bought. I dont recall "regimental" level trials being conducted at the time.

The IA is making sure that the trials are fixed and loaded in the T-90s favor. Looks like a new batch of Natashas must have been sent...

Have you heard of "trials" for any Russian product ?

I have not

K

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 04 Jun 2009 22:46

http://frontierindia.net/arjun-tanks-future

Last month we saw Arjun Tanks being inducted. Army wants now regimental comparisons with T-90. Another delaying technique?

Why Army has not spoken about the order for 500 tanks. Arjun Tank has been certified by an Israeli company. A South American country has asked for a Request For Proposal for Arjun Tanks. The Tanks have been tested to death. What else Indian Army wants?

alejandro_ · Post by **alejandro_** » 05 Jun 2009 02:18

If thats true it could be Peru, they are evaluating a replacement for T-55. One candidate is PT-91.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 05 Jun 2009 04:00

First 50 T-90 tanks to roll out of Indian factory

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Jun 2009 09:26

Interesting that this article appears when i thought i saw a spanking new T-90 travelling through Sarjapur ORR in bengaluru just an hour back mounted on a large truck...

Wonder what it was doing in the IT-vity zone of Bengaluru...

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 05 Jun 2009 10:19

Kersi D wrote:
Tanaji wrote:Compare the indecent haste with which the T-90s were bought. I dont recall "regimental" level trials being conducted at the time.

The IA is making sure that the trials are fixed and loaded in the T-90s favor. Looks like a new batch of Natashas must have been sent...
Have you heard of "trials" for any Russian product ?

I have not

K

T-90 Trials were conducted : (Actually 3 Regts were involved in the Trials not One )

1996-97 was when new MBT procurement talks with Russia were initated.
97-98 indian delegations were sent to russia for MBT evaluations.

Pls refer the below link TENTH REPORT STANDING COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE (2001) on the issue of T-90 evaluations.
http://164.100.24.208/ls/committeeR/Defence/10.pdf
98-99-2000 saw extensive trials of 3 T-90S in india.

The trials were all over newspapers.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 05 Jun 2009 10:31

All products are put through trials, but the problem is when they over look the issues that one of the product has and go on inducting it

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 05 Jun 2009 11:20

Will the Arjun tank keep rolling?

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 05 Jun 2009 11:30

sum wrote:Interesting that this article appears when i thought i saw a spanking new T-90 travelling through Sarjapur ORR in bengaluru just an hour back mounted on a large truck...

Wonder what it was doing in the IT-vity zone of Bengaluru...

I think BEML does some sort of repair works for Army's vehicles. But I have never seen a tank for sure.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 05 Jun 2009 11:39

^ from above article

it appears that a serious RFP (Request For Proposal) has been received from a Latin American country. Who knows? Fortune may favour Arjun and it may be seen in service in larger numbers abroad than in the country of its origin.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 05 Jun 2009 13:01

alejandro_ wrote:If thats true it could be Peru, they are evaluating a replacement for T-55. One candidate is PT-91.

Peru is against Ecuador. We have strong military relations with Ecuador, so supplying tanks to Peru wouldn't be welcomed in Ecuador. I believe the country could be Ecuador, maybe to add to it's fleet of 25 Leopard-1 tanks and retire it's very old fleet of the French AMX-13.

alejandro_ · Post by **alejandro_** » 05 Jun 2009 14:54

I believe the country could be Ecuador, maybe to add to it's fleet of 25 Leopard-1 tanks and retire it's very old fleet of the French AMX-13.

It is unlikely that Ecuador or Peru can afford a tank like Arjun, which is only being inducted now and has a number of foreign components that raise price. They tend to buy older and less capable second hand vehicles. Chile recently acquired Leo-2A4.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 05 Jun 2009 15:19

AmitR wrote:
sum wrote:Interesting that this article appears when i thought i saw a spanking new T-90 travelling through Sarjapur ORR in bengaluru just an hour back mounted on a large truck...

Wonder what it was doing in the IT-vity zone of Bengaluru...
I think BEML does some sort of repair works for Army's vehicles. But I have never seen a tank for sure.

Hmm... Thats very very odd.... I highly doubt that it was there at BEML, especially since BEML carts out its maal through the rail... I have seen the Delhi Metro rolling stock rolling out of the factory, as also whole loads of Tatras and other gaddis....

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 09 Jun 2009 17:40

d_berwal wrote:
Kersi D wrote:Compare the indecent haste with which the T-90s were bought. I dont recall "regimental" level trials being conducted at the time.

The IA is making sure that the trials are fixed and loaded in the T-90s favor. Looks like a new batch of Natashas must have been sent...

Have you heard of "trials" for any Russian product ?

I have not

K[

T-90 Trials were conducted : (Actually 3 Regts were involved in the Trials not One )

1996-97 was when new MBT procurement talks with Russia were initated.
97-98 indian delegations were sent to russia for MBT evaluations.

Pls refer the below link TENTH REPORT STANDING COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE (2001) on the issue of T-90 evaluations.
http://164.100.24.208/ls/committeeR/Defence/10.pdf
98-99-2000 saw extensive trials of 3 T-90S in india.

The trials were all over newspapers.

YES

There were trials held in Russia (with T 90s NOT with Natashas !! ) And in the trials the firing of REFLEX ATGMs, from the barrel of the gun failed miserably. And what do you think IA did.

OF COURSE THEY ACCEPTED THE T 90s

WHY ?

Because our Russian friends said that they will modify the system in India.

BTW there is one more trick up th red sleeve. Whenever there are problems with new equipment Russians do not come immediately. They come as soon as the guarantee period is over !!

K

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 09 Jun 2009 22:30

Kersi D wrote:
YES

There were trials held in Russia (with T 90s NOT with Natashas !! ) And in the trials the firing of REFLEX ATGMs, from the barrel of the gun failed miserably. And what do you think IA did.

OF COURSE THEY ACCEPTED THE T 90s

WHY ?

Because our Russian friends said that they will modify the system in India.

BTW there is one more trick up th red sleeve. Whenever there are problems with new equipment Russians do not come immediately. They come as soon as the guarantee period is over !!

K

Trials were conducted in India also

well the whole ATMG issue was highlighted in India not Russia, and it was only in a particular test case which was solved by the way

Well every product manufacture has some thing up his sleeve dosent he ? do u know what DRDO has had up there sleeve in case of ARJUN ?

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 10 Jun 2009 03:43

d_berwal wrote:
Kersi D wrote:
YES

There were trials held in Russia (with T 90s NOT with Natashas !! ) And in the trials the firing of REFLEX ATGMs, from the barrel of the gun failed miserably. And what do you think IA did.

OF COURSE THEY ACCEPTED THE T 90s

WHY ?

Because our Russian friends said that they will modify the system in India.

BTW there is one more trick up th red sleeve. Whenever there are problems with new equipment Russians do not come immediately. They come as soon as the guarantee period is over !!

K
Trials were conducted in India also

well the whole ATMG issue was highlighted in India not Russia, and it was only in a particular test case which was solved by the way

Well every product manufacture has some thing up his sleeve dosent he ? do u know what DRDO has had up there sleeve in case of ARJUN ?

does the report mention of any summer tests??

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 10 Jun 2009 09:58

rajsunder wrote:does the report mention of any summer tests??

http://www.india-today.com/itoday/29031999/defence.html
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010331/main2.htm

yes they were put through summer trials and winter trials + more

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 10 Jun 2009 11:47

Kakkaji,

It is mentioned in the article that military humvees are made by A M General and is a completely different company. GM has just bought the rights to the Hummer name... So it looks like the sale will go through and hopefully the military tech will not pass hands.

Sorry to join little late
AM General is based in South Bend IN, they were the original manufactures of Jeep which was sold to Chrysler.
I had worked in South Bend Indiana during early 1990s.

read here

http://www.amgeneral.com/corporate/history.php

We still dont have the so called Indian Field Gun long over due

Uri_T · Post by **Uri_T** » 12 Jun 2009 17:23

The new Israeli-made Kalanit APAM shell will soon be used in the Armored Corps

Within the next few months, one of the Armored Corps battalions will receive the first Kalanit APAM shells for a trial week before the shells start being used. Israel Military Industries, the producer of the Kalanit, is currently producing hundreds of shells, some of which will be tested within the brigade and who will be the first to be equipped with the new sophisticated shell. The shell is expected to be in use by 2010, and all of the Merkava Mark III and Merkava Mark IV tanks of the Armored Corps will be equipped with it.

The Kalanit shell, which is suited for a 120 mm canon, was constructed mainly to function against hidden anti-tank operators and those rendering a normal shell ineffective. The Kalanit is shot above the anti-tank operator, stops in the air and explodes into six charges of different sizes, whose shrapnel seriously damages the operator and silences it.

The new shell is part of a series of tools the IDF is being equipped with in order to decrease the damaging of AFVs by anti-tank weapons. Among them are the Wind Coat, an active defense mechanism for tanks, which has recently entered service in an Armored Corps battalion, and the Spur Arrow, an active defense mechanism for IDF Namer infantry fighting vehicles, which is currently being developed.

The Kalanit shell was developed from the Rakefet APAM shell, which has been used in the Armored Corps for the past few years, and is suited for a 105 mm canon. The Kalanit, as opposed to the Rakefet, automatically receives the computerized location of the target. Once that takes place, the tank crew hits the target by pushing a button and the Kalanit will do the rest. When using the Rakefet, the tank crew has to identify the location of the target by itself before entering the chamber.

The automatic data identification allows the tank crew to keep the shell in the barrel constantly and fire it immediately, when necessary. Another advantage of the Kalanit resulting from that, is the possibility to change the shell’s assignment when it is already in the chamber.

While the Rakefet is constructed for 105 mm canon tanks like the Magach and the Merkava Mark II, the Kalanit can be used by the more developed tanks of the Armored Corps: the Merkava Mark III and the Merkava Mark IV. The Kalanit, which represents the spearhead in the field of munition worldwide, can be also be used to damage buildings, helicopters and other tools as well, through the different uses of the six charges in the shell. For the soldiers it only means pushing another button.

http://idf-armor.blogspot.com/

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 12 Jun 2009 18:14

Uri_T wrote:The new Israeli-made Kalanit APAM shell will soon be used in the Armored Corps
...

All this looks good on paper but how will the tank crew find the hidden anti-tank weapon?

Uri_T · Post by **Uri_T** » 12 Jun 2009 20:58

AmitR wrote:
Uri_T wrote:The new Israeli-made Kalanit APAM shell will soon be used in the Armored Corps
...
All this looks good on paper but how will the tank crew find the hidden anti-tank weapon?

How?

With the robotic snake
[youtube]<object width="500" height="405"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/W2MY9kIKLe4&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/W2MY9kIKLe4&hl ... 0&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="500" height="405"></embed></object>[/youtube]

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 12 Jun 2009 21:28

d_berwal wrote:
rajsunder wrote:does the report mention of any summer tests??
http://www.india-today.com/itoday/29031999/defence.html
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010331/main2.htm

yes they were put through summer trials and winter trials + more

If so then why dint the Army say anything about the overheating of every electronic instrument in T-90, which has to be finally solved by using Air Conditioners???

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 12 Jun 2009 21:34

Uri_T wrote:The new Israeli-made Kalanit APAM shell will soon be used in the Armored Corps
...

How?

With the robotic snake
[youtube]<object width="500" height="405"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/W2MY9kIKLe4&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/W2MY9kIKLe4&hl ... 0&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="500" height="405"></embed></object>[/youtube]

With the anti tank missile ranges ever increasing, I donot think one can fit in enough battery power in this snake.
As i see it its still a technology in work.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 13 Jun 2009 10:15

rajsunder wrote:
d_berwal wrote:
http://www.india-today.com/itoday/29031999/defence.html
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010331/main2.htm

yes they were put through summer trials and winter trials + more
If so then why dint the Army say anything about the overheating of every electronic instrument in T-90, which has to be finally solved by using Air Conditioners???

Not every electronic instrument. Only One.

AC's are still not installed in any Indian MBT. But every thing is functioning great.

How do you conclude that Army did not say anything about overheating? And who do they say this something to?

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 15 Jun 2009 23:49

d_berwal wrote:
Not every electronic instrument. Only One.

AC's are still not installed in any Indian MBT. But every thing is functioning great.

whole of BRF knows how the army was against installing Ac's in Arjun and when it came to the question of T-90 they just went ahead and accepted the same.
AC's in Arjuns were luxury for the soldiers but when it came to T-90 the Army behaves as if they are a necessity.
The instruments that were found to be over heating in t-90 are the firing computer and the thermal camera.

How do you conclude that Army did not say anything about overheating? And who do they say this something to?

If so, then why dint we order AC's along with the T-90's. Why did we have to wait a decade to order refit of T-90's with AC's???

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 16 Jun 2009 00:25

I think there should be a book on Arjun's story, how and when it was stopped from success but still triumphed .
I saw arjun on republic day parade long ago,felt proud, but didn't knew that there is an evil called babudom in army as well .

sunny_s · Post by **sunny_s** » 16 Jun 2009 13:34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfbAqeWDYug
my new video on Arjun tank,hope you all like it

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 16 Jun 2009 14:02

not too bad at all. I wonder what you would have made had you been given some unedited raw HD video instead of all that capture you did off TV I guess. .

Great stuff.

sunny_s · Post by **sunny_s** » 16 Jun 2009 16:53

Yes my source's for the video were headlines today and doordarshan,sometime back they had telecasted special prog.on Arjun mbt.With the comparative trials coming close ithought of giving my bit for Arjun and its team

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 16 Jun 2009 19:08

ARJUN TANK IS GLORY
Why is army sleeping? they should set a mission to induct Arjun tanks in bulk and phase out old t-72.
This machine will win wars

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 16 Jun 2009 20:53

rajsunder wrote: whole of BRF knows how the army was against installing Ac's in Arjun and when it came to the question of T-90 they just went ahead and accepted the same.
AC's in Arjuns were luxury for the soldiers but when it came to T-90 the Army behaves as if they are a necessity.
The instruments that were found to be over heating in t-90 are the firing computer and the thermal camera.

Over heating was observed in TI sight only.
It is presumed by all of us that Army was against AC in ARJUN but when did Army put it on record that "Never" its is only DDM through sources that this came out.

If so, then why dint we order AC's along with the T-90's. Why did we have to wait a decade to order refit of T-90's with AC's???

may be because the people who negotiated the deal from MOD thought, they can generate more work for themselves if they can buy item in lots with multiple tenders.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 16 Jun 2009 21:22

D_brewal:

The issue is that in case of the T-90 the Army is willing to work with the suppliers to ensure that problems are rectified. It will also, in fact, accept "tranches" where each tranche is a successively better and more advanced product.

The same kind consideration is not accorded to the Arjun. For the Arjun, it must be "all or nothing" and must be a world class tank, with clarion calls to heart strings that go "Its our lives that are on the line" accompanied by a little lying to the Parliamentary committee by serving officers on the faults of Arjun. All very good, but why not the same attitude towards the T-90?

A level playing field is all that we ask. No one "hates or is picking upon" the Army here.