The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 01 Jun 2009 03:29

NRao wrote:SaiK,

Perhaps I am all wet, but it was my understanding that the FGFA (NOT PAK-FA) has SOME commonality with the PAK-FA. Operative word being "Some" - not entirely. Beyond these common items is where India comes in - FGFA may be designed in RU, but the materials used, etc would have a large Indian component. Hope I did not misread or have a failure of memory, but FGFA is supposed to be fly-by-light IIRC (PAK-FA IIRC is not). So, there are (I think) plenty of items that are Indian. Let us see - all this should be out in a year or so.

Back to M/MRCA.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 01 Jun 2009 03:30

SaiK wrote:
Furthermore, pakfa and futuristic deals are for now a hype rather a deal. The specs don't even counter act with what the western blocks think its 5th gen and such features.

Please provide a 'standard western block definition of a fifth generation fighter', since you claim to know it. Also, mention specifically what aspects of the PAK-FA do not 'counter act' that ?

SaiK wrote:
There is a lot of catch ups.. and not withstanding, the russkies holds us by the b@lls where it hurts us more, further enhancing the dependency factor to greater than 80% all the time. Their handle on us is very hidden with wide spread agents and inside-jobers. But they do give us a sense of freedom, that is more virtual than actual imho.

Agreed.

SaiK wrote:
If pakfa to be futuristic, a french help or EADS help could make it a clean deal. Are they willing to such open platform inviting some nato blocks into it, at the discretion of our choice.

There were plans to involve the French (reference: Page 2 of this thread) with the PAK FA but were later shelved. Furthermore, why would one (read Russia) choose to involve potentially adversarial countries (read NATO block) in your program ?

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 01 Jun 2009 10:36

Furthermore, why would one (read Russia) choose to involve potentially adversarial countries (read NATO block) in your program ?

To snoop and scuttle the whole effort.
Remember HF-24 (Tank India, Egypt Engine)

Read here more how we nearly achieved what we wanted all by ourselves till some scuttled HAL.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... /marut.htm

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 04 Jun 2009 06:33

John Snow wrote:
To snoop and scuttle the whole effort.

Indeed, which goes against SaiK's suggestion, thereby prompting my question.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 05 Jun 2009 16:46

Just for the records. From:

India, Russia close to fresh Gorshkov deal

Besides providing an impetus to the aircraft carrier, during the visit of the top Indian official both sides reiterated their commitment to ongoing projects — development of a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and Multi-Role Transport Aircraft (MRTA), supply of Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter aircraft, upgrading existing aircraft development of Inver and Konkurs missiles, futuristic infantry combat vehicle, indigenisation of T-90 tanks, besides supply of spares and product support, a Ministry official said.

On the FGFA, the officials said, detailed contracts for plans and sharing of funding have to be drawn up. The aircraft is being developed with the aim to match the American FGFA F-22 Raptors.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jun 2009 18:17

JaiS, Its a mindset attributes that is driven by ddm and such thoughts to include some nato block member or their components into pak-fa, or fgfa. [pl. ref.: "think" as disclaimer]

BTW, here is something that should substantiate my thoughts: that GoI still does not have a deal with russkies, but just an understanding at 30k ft abstractness.

India also "reiterated commitment" to the joint Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) ... "These two are extremely important projects. The FGFA will be close to the US' F-22 Raptors in its capabilities. The commitments on funds for the MTA project is still to be worked out,"

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holn ... 051332.htm

The above link is not a detailed description of FGFA specs.. but a ddm link that has an abstract comparision to the F22 Raptors. Since, the jab is at these raptors, expect tremendous comaparisons to happen in this thread [should be constructive, correct?].

Also, note the ddm says: "close to US' F-22 Raports in its capabilities".. but not equal to or better.

So, ddm here did its CYA. Hence, my conclusion for now that we have nothing yet to be comparing even at the "paper tiger" level.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Jun 2009 18:58

Close to the Raptor's capabilities but far from the Raptor's cost! That's what the 5th-gen fighter should be.The Raptor is rapidly becoming an expensive white elephant, as the US is so reluctant to field it even in places like Afghanistan or Iraq where there is absolutely no opposition in the air.The exorbitant cost of it,about twice that of the JSF has meant that US allies,who in any case are prohibited form acquiring the aircraft,are preferring the JSF to the Raptor and the latest F-18 SHornets.IN actual fact,there is far more excitement in the development of UCAVs than with manned aircraft,as the beauty of sending in an unmanned stealthy drone that picks off the enemy target at will with its massive loiter abd endurance capability at any altitude,is making this kind of aerial bird the preferred option in current wars,which are not the classic battles of the WW2 and last century era,but rather the age of terror,where PGMs are required for zero CEP to avoid colateral damage.No pilot means no hostage too if the UCAV is shot down by ground defences and the nation is spared the humiliation of seeing its pilot on telly screens worldwide.We do remember Kargil and Sq.Ldr.Nachiketa who was shot down and captured.

Whatever its connfiguration and cost,it will have to be a generation and significantly better than the SU-30MKI and affordable to win the battle for air dominance in the next decade+.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 12 Jun 2009 05:39

Nothing new, but posting here for the records.

Medvedev backs co-production of Russian arms with other countries

GORKI (Moscow Region), June 11 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian president on Thursday threw his support behind the idea of joint development and production of military products with other countries.

Medvedev did not specify what products could be developed and produced under such programs.

Russia is already developing a fifth-generation fighter jet in cooperation with India, with the first prototype is scheduled to make its maiden flight before the end of 2009.

The advanced multirole fighter is being developed by the Sukhoi aircraft maker, part of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), along with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under a preliminary intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 12 Jun 2009 05:56

But UAV's are meant only for asymmetric combat, where the enemy does not have the ability to shoot them down - like the talibs in pakistan. The current use of armed UAV's would not be a very potent weapon in an all out war, neither will it be a game changer.
To be a game changer, you need all the latest fifth gen tech on a fighter that you can get. hence the rush for fifth gen fighter aircraft programmes all over the world.
From Turkey, to china to India (MCA) to russia to the US, to the Japanese, all seem to be developing one.

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 16 Jun 2009 01:46

MiG's Fifth Generation Fighter Builds up New Momentum

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 16 Jun 2009 01:58

soutikghosh wrote:MiG's Fifth Generation Fighter Builds up New Momentum

its seems PAF FA going to be medium category fighter which has to satisfy both requirements of lightweight and heavy weight fighter

means significantly lighter than f22 or marginally heavier(may be more) than single engine
5 gen fighter

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 16 Jun 2009 02:16

soutikghosh wrote:..............Indian Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) started analyzing the development options for a home-grown fifth-generation fighter, called the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA), which was a twin-engine version of the its Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas fighter. After a bad experience with the LCA, India sought a partner in Russia for the MCA program.
......................

how much of this statement is true, is it just some wishful thinking from Russian side??

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 16 Jun 2009 03:36

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... day-1.html

1. Sukhoi is suddenly coy about the prospects for the first flight of the T-50 demonstrator by end-year. It was only a few months ago that Sukhoi CEO Mikhail Pogosyan confidently predicted the PAK-FA demonstrator would fly before 2010. Asked about that prediction today, he told reporters that Sukhoi would have more information about first flight at the Farnborough air show next July.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jun 2009 06:37

soutikghosh wrote:MiG's Fifth Generation Fighter Builds up New Momentum

That is a 2006 article!!

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 18 Jun 2009 05:36

PARIS AIR SHOW: Sukhoi secretive on PAK-FA programmes

Sukhoi is still working on a prototype of its fifth-generation "PAK-FA" advanced tactical frontline fighter, but the schedule for its flight-test programme remains unconfirmed, despite earlier indications that the aircraft would fly in 2009.

The Russian manufacturer is focusing its promotional efforts at the show on the Superjet 100 regional jet. Director general Mikhail Pogosyan says he will talk about the fifth-generation fighter at the next Farnborough air show "or later". It is "something for the future", he says.

Pogosyan confirms that the company is creating a prototype and preparing for the start of trials, and that internal discussions regarding the prototype are under way. Beyond that, any communication on the programme awaits the outcome of trials. Last year, Russian news agency RIA Novosti quoted industry and energy minister Viktor Khristenko as saying that "the flight tests of the aircraft are scheduled to begin in 2009".

Though reticent on the specifics of the PAK-FA programme, Pogosyan is confident of success in the Indian fighter contest, in which the MiG-35 has been entered. The MiG aircraft has "a good chance of winning", he says. It has already completed flight tests with the Indian air force .

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 18 Jun 2009 14:17

soutikghosh wrote:MiG's Fifth Generation Fighter Builds up New Momentum

in the article

LMFS is different
A great advantage of the MiG project is the fact that its design and technical parameters are significantly different from the Sukhoi T-50. As a result, the market does not have to choose between an "either-or" situation, and both aircraft can find their place, depending upon the needs of potential export clients. The MiG proposal is for a "right-sized" aircraft that would be in the realistic price range for most foreign buyers, as best described by the frequently-quoted phrase of Mikoyan Design Bureau Director Vladimir Barkovskiy: "smaller and simpler aircraft would be inferior to its competitors, but larger and more sophisticated would be too expensive." In 2002, the then-CEO of MiG Corp. Nikolay Nikitin stated that an outlay of $1.3 billion per year between 2010-2025 would be enough to cover a Russian Air Force purchase and operation of a necessary number of MiG-designed aircraft, while a heavier Sukhoi aircraft would cost $2 billion per year. MiG also estimates the export potential of its lighter-weight fighter as 3-4.5 times higher than the Sukhoi fighter.
At the moment, one thing is certain: the LMFS will be about 30% lighter than the T-50. According to approximate assessments, the T-50 will have a normal take-off weight of 21 tons, which places it between present MiG-29 and Su-27 fighters — whereas the LMFS is likely to weigh 15 tons. Most probably, the LMFS will retain the delta canard configuration of the heavy MiG 1.44 prototype. Being asked directly about the new fighter configuration, Barkovskiy answered indirectly: "It would be illogical if we reject the experience we accumulated while developing that project [MiG 1.44]." He also mentioned that "the number of wind tunnel tests [of the 1.44 models] was vast, setting a new record in Russia. [So] we are making use of these materials and transforming them into the fifth generation aircraft."

orders from India kept mig corp running, it would have been a better option if they had asked for mig 1.44 design specs so as to have at least some help in local mca designing .

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jun 2009 16:51

Samay,

If you check out older threads you should see URLs for MiG offer, to India, for the 5th Gen FGFA. India, then had preferred a single engined 5th gen and the older article seem to indicate that India was more interested in the MiG game plan than that of Sukhoi.

MCA: Has been on the drawing boards for about 10 years now. It clearly had more influence from the LCA and one would doubt if the MiG would have been able to substantially impact it.

Having said that I am inclined to believe that these newer air crafts are more influenced by the F-22/35. They have to be - now they have a working model in front of them and considering the funds and time they all have they might as well be "influenced".

Vinito · Post by **Vinito** » 19 Jun 2009 22:50

Philip wrote:Close to the Raptor's capabilities but far from the Raptor's cost! That's what the 5th-gen fighter should be.The Raptor is rapidly becoming an expensive white elephant, as the US is so reluctant to field it even in places like Afghanistan or Iraq where there is absolutely no opposition in the air.The exorbitant cost of it,about twice that of the JSF has meant that US allies,who in any case are prohibited form acquiring the aircraft,are preferring the JSF to the Raptor and the latest F-18 SHornets.IN actual fact,there is far more excitement in the development of UCAVs than with manned aircraft,as the beauty of sending in an unmanned stealthy drone that picks off the enemy target at will with its massive loiter abd endurance capability at any altitude,is making this kind of aerial bird the preferred option in current wars,which are not the classic battles of the WW2 and last century era,but rather the age of terror,where PGMs are required for zero CEP to avoid colateral damage.No pilot means no hostage too if the UCAV is shot down by ground defences and the nation is spared the humiliation of seeing its pilot on telly screens worldwide.We do remember Kargil and Sq.Ldr.Nachiketa who was shot down and captured.

Whatever its connfiguration and cost,it will have to be a generation and significantly better than the SU-30MKI and affordable to win the battle for air dominance in the next decade+.

I fail to understamd why in the world is the Indian government trying to get involved in the FGFA program. I understand from Russia's perspective, they are always happy ot have sum1 bankroll their own program so that they can reap the benefits. But India is already well equipped with the Su-30MKI which is in a class of its own. Once the MRCA aircraft come in we are meeting most of our requiremeents.

Heavy fighter - SU-30MKI
Medium weight category - winner from the MRCA / Mirage 2000
Light Category - Mig-21(upgraded)

I am wondering why does Indi need to look at the PAK-FA program. We are set with our needs. This new aircraft will just end up giving another SU-30MKI category aircraft (not in terms of generation, but in weight)...if that does happen what do we do with that licence we have to manufacture 140 SU-30 at HAL. I think that India should progressively update the SU-30 aircraft as time progresses rather than funding a program that does not change the scenario for us much. If India does want to invest in Russian programs, maybe they can accelerate the KS-172 AAM program which is totally anti-AWAC specific and this will be the pain area for us given that our neighbours are looking at AWACS as the most essential thing.

We are just wasting money in this program. If India did want this then they should have not gone in for such a heavily modified version of the SU-30 with the BARS radar but should have settled for more Mirage 2000-5 which would have been a good addition.

Vinito · Post by **Vinito** » 19 Jun 2009 22:53

Sontu wrote:^^^ I beg to differ...but the Vertical Stab does not looks to be canted.
It is because of the angle at which shot was taken and also the position of the camera and overall framing of the subject at an angle..it's giving an illusion as being bit canted...which is not actually..i believe.

regarding the sloped/depressed spine has been a normal phenomena for the fisrt few version of Russian aircrafts and modified /upgraded versions normally has bulged spine..may be to increase of internal fuel capacity …what I have observed in few Mig and Su versions.

I would expect the PAKFA to have totally new shape of wings, all stabilizers with possibility of inward swept design features…learning’s from Su-47 Berkut design.

Regards,

as per Janes Defence Weekly they have confirmed that the SU-47 Berkut will have a conventional wing as the FSW design is causing problems. The FSW was just a demonstrator to see if this was a good option.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jun 2009 22:54

I am wondering why does Indi need to look at the PAK-FA program. We are set with our needs.

5th Gen AC. Simple. It is the natural next step.

Vinito · Post by **Vinito** » 19 Jun 2009 23:07

Avinandan wrote:Although no body knows enough of the FGFA, but just wondering if there would it have any rear facing RADAR just like the Su-30 does ?

I had read a ebook from midland publishing where they have mentioned that the FGFA will have a rear facing radar as it is one of the Russian Air force requirement. They want this facility to enable it to use the rearward firing version of the AA-11 archers

Vinito · Post by **Vinito** » 19 Jun 2009 23:11

NRao wrote:
I am wondering why does Indi need to look at the PAK-FA program. We are set with our needs.
5th Gen AC. Simple. It is the natural next step.

I totally agree with your reaso as to why we need this a/c since it is a generation ahead...my only concern is that why did we go ahead and pour so much money into the SU-30MKI if we could have just waited and opted for this one...all that was required was diverting the funds that we paid for the SU-30MKI towards the PAK-FA...this program has been going on since the 90's and we could have got the aircraft by the time the SU-30 came in.

What we have as a result is a 5th gen a/c rather than a variety of a/c which can only increase our maintainence costs.

btw...the Mig 1.44 seems to have an impressive list of features compared to the SU-47 Berkut.

Vinito · Post by **Vinito** » 19 Jun 2009 23:16

SaiK wrote:graduation is elementary.. we still need to see in pakfa, the following technology be proven that is not necessary to take to flight with the final version.
1. Stealth skins
2. Advanced avionics
3. AESA radar with stealth mode
4. Internal Weapons bay
5. Super cruise
6. Advanced weapons delivery platform - net.centric ops.
..
many of these tech need not be on pak-fa.. the su35 is good enough platform to be used as test bed. but, so far we have got to see only the TVC of Al31 series. Al41 has not made up to the news yet, that is supposed to supercruise the su35s without using afterburners.

on the stealth skins, no word or even a psy ops on shape based deflection or absorption technologies.. also, note that raptor's passive skins capture radar signals and feed them live to FCR radar.

it has a terra flop mission computer as well.

it would be silly if we just compare raptor to any modified platform., unless the specs are out.

a bit off topic...but does anyone know what happened to the radar evading technology that Russia claimed to have developed which could be retrofitted to any existing aircraft. I was said to be based on plasma technology and could render the carrier aircraft invisible at certain angles.

I read about it in a newspaper when it was offered to India....it was said to weigh 120 kg and could be fitted to any existing aircraft with minimal adjustments.

Vinito · Post by **Vinito** » 19 Jun 2009 23:20

JaiS wrote:Nothing new, but posting here for the records.

Medvedev backs co-production of Russian arms with other countries

GORKI (Moscow Region), June 11 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian president on Thursday threw his support behind the idea of joint development and production of military products with other countries.

Medvedev did not specify what products could be developed and produced under such programs.

Russia is already developing a fifth-generation fighter jet in cooperation with India, with the first prototype is scheduled to make its maiden flight before the end of 2009.

The advanced multirole fighter is being developed by the Sukhoi aircraft maker, part of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), along with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under a preliminary intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007.

Maybe he also needs to mention the amount of pains the Russians have given in these joint development programs...they are only looking for partners to milk them and run these programs. Mutual benefits are the last thing on their minds

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jun 2009 03:18

Vinito,

Please go read old threads.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 24 Jun 2009 05:48

Translation credits: Roy FC

Fifth Generation Airplane to Lift into Air This Year

The fight generation combat airplane will lift into the air before year's end, the Russian Federation defense ministry press service reports, referring to the chief of the armed forces and deputy Russian Federation defense minister, Vladimir Popovkin.

"It (the fifth generation airplane) is supposed to break away from the earth for the first time this year," said V. Popovkin. "We have no reasons to say that the time will be moved," said V. Popovkin.

Source: 18.06.09, Avia.RU

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Jun 2009 20:14

Russian Sukhoi Reinforces Domestic Military

among other things, this is very interesting. India wanted a "lighter" 5th Gen:

UAC CEO Alexey Fyodorov, former head of the Irkut manufacturing plant, has confirmed on numerous occasions that there are ambitions to develop a light fighter complement to the PAK FA. The priority for the moment, however, is the PAK FA.

I would not be surprised at all if India gets a single engined "PAK-FA" - as the FGFA.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 07 Jul 2009 22:19

CGI Model pictures of PAK-FA, looks like Russian aircrafts would still keep the tag of $exiest looking aircraft.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... _pic_9.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... _pic_8.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... _pic_7.jpg

if only looks could kill

naird · Post by **naird** » 08 Jul 2009 00:08

rajsunder wrote:CGI Model pictures of PAK-FA, looks like Russian aircrafts would still keep the tag of $exiest looking aircraft.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... _pic_9.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... _pic_8.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... _pic_7.jpg

if only looks could kill

Jeeezzaaalllooooooo....if only the girls in my company were that good looking .........

Hope that is the real PAK FA.....too much raptorsky i think.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 08 Jul 2009 00:38

Amazing CGI ! Unbelievable !!!
Aeronautical engineers on BRF, need an analysis on the airframe design here. Capabilities, stealth, weapon load in internal bays etc based on this image.

3D TVC eliminates the need for a tail plane or horizontal stabilizer, elevons combine the functions of the elevator (used for pitch control) and the aileron (used for roll control).

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 08 Jul 2009 00:50

naird wrote:
rajsunder wrote:CGI Model pictures of PAK-FA, looks like Russian aircrafts would still keep the tag of $exiest looking aircraft.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... _pic_9.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... _pic_8.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... _pic_7.jpg

if only looks could kill

Jeeezzaaalllooooooo....if only the girls in my company were that good looking .........

Hope that is the real PAK FA.....too much raptorsky i think.

Thats called killer beauty,
why do ruskies make such beautiful acs like their tennis girls

If this is a nearest design to what we will see in a few months then the
Airframe looks like a mixture of yf22 and yf23 thats a guess only,, and I heard some where that ruskies got much info on yf23 after it was canceled !

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 08 Jul 2009 01:04

http://www.flightglobal.com/cgi-bin/mt/ ... eBlogs=108

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 08 Jul 2009 01:14

The PAK-FA cgi images are taken from here:

http://www.duler.ru/design.html

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 08 Jul 2009 02:32

Samay,

These pictures are awesome but they aren't official yet. And your guess might be correct because I remember reading some article long time ago in which some ruski top guy said that sukhoi pak fa will look like black widow. I tried to dig out that link but cudn't find

..anyways...I have started dreaming pak fa in IAF colors doing sorties close to east and wet borders.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 08 Jul 2009 02:55

Venkarl wrote:Samay,

These pictures are awesome but they aren't official yet. And your guess might be correct because I remember reading some article long time ago in which some ruski top guy said that sukhoi pak fa will look like black widow. I tried to dig out that link but cudn't find ..anyways...I have started dreaming pak fa in IAF colors doing sorties close to east and wet borders.

It seems that the air intakes are too large and the general design does not have the sharp cuts of a stealthy design. Rounded edges will return some radar signals. The design is too sexy to be real.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Jul 2009 03:19

Looks like a Su-30 frame in a F-22 skin.

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 08 Jul 2009 03:29

rajsunder wrote:CGI Model pictures of PAK-FA, looks like Russian aircrafts would still keep the tag of $exiest looking aircraft.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... _pic_9.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... _pic_8.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... _pic_7.jpg

if only looks could kill

Sorry to disappoint you but these pictures are only imagination of a Private Russian designer and not the actual designs.

Aleksander Dultsev, a Russian industrial design artist, has created some stunning renderings of what he imagines the Sukhoi PAK-FA 5th generation fighter might look like.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Jul 2009 05:00

We know.

Need to kill some time. Constructively. Dreaming on very slow falls under that.

Besides BR aero engineers have rejected it.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Jul 2009 18:37

One report has it that the Pak-FA will have "conformal AESA radar",which can be fitted anywhere on the aircraft.The aircraft will be in production during the next decade,probably around 2014/15,while the first prototypes being built will start flying later this year.A parallel production programme of improved SU-30s which will incorporate some of the 5th gen tech. will also be on for another decade,depending upon the production costs of the Pak-FA

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Jul 2009 20:13

Phillip,

That is old news. As in MAKS 2007.

Any progress in 2009?