Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 18 Jun 2009 16:59

^^
if you are suggesting that i am a US fan boy,then FYI i am not.But i am only worried about people endrosing taliban.The Taliban and the PA ideology is different.Every indian on BR want PA to be beaten.But in that way you must not close your eyes for the threat replacing it.Why should we think about US,when they dont care about us.The US will continue to Live even with Taliban,but can??Taliban main weapon is unconventional warfare which everyone knows we are clueless in handling..

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 18 Jun 2009 17:03

Well, India also figures on the list, so bakis can claim == onlee, I guess.

Also, why is SL missing?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Jun 2009 17:06

US wants India to support Pak efforts against militants

A couple of days back, high praise for India and that itself was an indication demands would follow. In diplomatese, the above is actually a demand considering that India has been acquiescing in every such US wish of late.

"As Pakistan now works to take on the challenge of terrorists in its own country, I'm confident that India as well as US will support those efforts," Ms. Clinton said while welcoming a dialogue between the two neighbours. {That's smart Ms. Clinton, bracketing the US along with India and making it appear that the enemies of both the US and India are one and the same and that the India-Pakistan dynamic is similar to the US-Pakistan one. I am sure many lifafa Indian journalists and newspapers will latch on to this even more even if they are visceral haters of the US policies.}

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jun 2009 17:08

kvraghav wrote:^^
if you are suggesting that i am a US fan boy,then FYI i am not.But i am only worried about people endrosing taliban.The Taliban and the PA ideology is different.Every indian on BR want PA to be beaten.But in that way you must not close your eyes for the threat replacing it.Why should we think about US,when they dont care about us.The US will continue to Live even with Taliban,but can??Taliban main weapon is unconventional warfare which everyone knows we are clueless in handling..

The Taliban and the Paki army are exactly the same as far as India is concerned.

Kargil was not Taliban. It was not conventional warfare
Kaluchak was not Taliban. It was not conventional warfare
The Mumbai, Delhi, Jaipur, Varanasi, (you name the city) blasts were not Taliban. It was not conventional warfare
26/11 was not Taliban. It was not conventional warfare

You are putting up a strawman here. The Taliban has not even attacked us and suddenly you imagine they are worse? What does "worse" mean? Nukes? Hey the Taliban need nukes against India and the US. The Paki army is keeping them safe for use against India alone.

Exactly what sort of reading have you been doing to come to the conclusions that you have done? Could you give me a hint? Please?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Jun 2009 17:11

kvraghav wrote:But i am only worried about people endorsing taliban.

kvraghav, if you have lurked here enough, you would know the outlook of those posters who appear to you to be endorsing the Taliban. Rest assured nobody is. We have extensive knowledge here of the Taliban.

Taliban main weapon is unconventional warfare which everyone knows we are clueless in handling..

That's simply not true.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 18 Jun 2009 17:17

Great.My sort of reading is that Taliban never drove a column of tanks to be destroyed in the desert or a group of fighters to be shot down or ships and submarine to be sinked.They just used lots of sucide bombings.

Sridhar sir,
I have been a poster since 2 years and a lurker since very long.I know the people and didnt post anyhting untill it came from shiv sir whom i have met in a BR meet in bangalore and listened...

Sorry if offending.I rest my case but my thoughts remain unchanged.As for the genes surviving a nuclear attack,we have none conserved in USA in our family.

Just my thoughts.Thanks for the patience

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jun 2009 17:17

SSridhar wrote:US wants India to support Pak efforts against militants

This is the ideal time for India to make some frontline troops play musical chairs. Make big charade of "pulling out troops". Have a big televised "homecoming" reception for some Indian troops (about 200 of them) with Bollywood stars, garlands and aratis, and speeches. In a parallel party send some farmers and laborers to ceremoniously start tilling the land that has been vacated (by 200 troops). Heck Chinese media make 10 tanks in a row look like thousands. 200 troops sitting in a makeshift auditorium can be made to look like thousands.

The tell the Pakistani army "we are with you in your fight against misguided elements. India has just pulled back the first of thousands of troops to be moved back promising that Pakistan will never be attacked by India. Pakistan need feel no threat. On my honor. Cross my heart and hope to die. Pakistan can rest assured. The US can rest assured.

Pakistan can move its troops away from the Indian border and concentrate on taking on the evil that "both counties face"

There are many games that we too can play that neither Pakistan or the US can do anything about.. Other than bleat helplessly..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Jun 2009 17:18

vsudhir wrote:Well, India also figures on the list, so bakis can claim == onlee, I guess.

Also, why is SL missing?

Those refugees, because of whom India is on the list, are also due to Pakistan. They should ideally be credited to the Pakistani account even though they are Indians. Pakistan figure is way too low. It should be 2+%.

SL may be missing because of old data (it says end of 2008).

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Jun 2009 17:24

kvraghav wrote:Sorry if offending.I rest my case but my thoughts remain unchanged.As for the genes surviving a nuclear attack,we have none conserved in USA in our family.

kvraghav, no, you have not offended me and no offence taken either. You have a point that you have expressed. There is nothing but one universal truth (apart of course from La I'l . . . .) and that is that unless Pakistan is destroyed in its present form and content, there is no relief for India and the world. Like the blind men of Hindoostan, each one of us comes out with his/her idea of how to go about it.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Jun 2009 17:31

The refugees are contributions of "Pakistan" through BD and Punjab, of "China" through Tibet, Of "Myanmar" through ethnic minorities escaping from the junta, of SL through ethnic Tamils escaping from Sinhala xenophobia - behind it all is the nexus of China+TSP, who could only do so with the backing of USA+UK.

The Talebs and TSPA have overlaps, and a part of the Talebs can be combined into parts of TSPA and ISI to be dubbed an extended regular-irregular Caliphate style concentration of all state, political, military and theological authority in a single entity. They have created each other and transformed each other into this. The fighst that we see are partly genuine in that the visible conflicts are between those factions of Talebs and those within ISI/TSPA that have not reconciled themselves to a single entity and want to retain their individual freedoms and existence, as also control over the "other". Part of this visible fight is also a sham, as it is needed to be maintained to the flow of resources from the west in the slow-release mechanism.

For India, this overlap and separation has to be kept in mind before jumping onto drawing clear boundaries between the Talebs and the PA. As long as the peripheral groups fight, it is good for India. But eventually, with a lot of help from PRC and perhaps elements within the US establishment, they will consolidate the core as a neo-Caliphate TalebPA virtual Islamic state authority in the north Pakistan.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Jun 2009 17:32

Pakistan asks foreign diplomats to use private number plates in cars

The security agencies were particularly opposed to private registration plates being provided to vehicles of the Indian High Commission as the move would create problems for their operatives assigned to keep tabs on Indian diplomats

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 18 Jun 2009 17:33

Yup.I too cant agree more.We need the PA to be destroyed.But the Pa that is getting destroyed,is that the one???Its the foot soldiers that are dying.Not the general and kernails like Musharaf who dare do the misadventures.We want the demise of ISI.But ISI is close to the Taliban.It has attacked ISI only onece AFAIK.Thats where we should it.Even if Taliban wins,these are not new set of people.These are the same pakisatanis who hate india.Only this time,pakjabis get united with pashtoons and others

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 18 Jun 2009 18:24

Even though the BRF garus understand Pakistan better than most other outsiders in the world, if I may so imply, the magnitude of the enigma is challenging to any intellect, when it comes to conceiving of a differentiated and detailed plan of response regarding Pakistan.

There is some truth to the dynamic
Me against my brother, My brother and I against our cousins, My family against the others in the tribe, My tribe against the others tribes in the sect, My sect against the others in the Islam, All Muslims against the Kufr. This dynamic is then broadened to the professional Jihadi networks, with cross-network alliances and simmering feuds. The rest of the truth to this dynamic is that the big powers of the day also have their fingers in the pie and poking them left, right and center. Much is in flux and so it becomes difficult to take sides, especially when one is unanimously hated.

If you play the Game you get burned, if you don't, you get scorched. So India too needs to play the Game. However we should be building some leverage with all groups; help and withhold help as is deemed fit; but most importantly we need to do everything under the radar, and try to leave as few fingerprints or hurt egos as possible. A Mighty Task, indeed!

We have to look both at Taliban and even the TSPA in a differentiated way. All are (in-)human, all have weaknesses and all have their price!

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 18 Jun 2009 18:53

You are putting up a strawman here. The Taliban has not even attacked us and suddenly you imagine they are worse? What does "worse" mean? Nukes? Hey the Taliban need nukes against India and the US. The Paki army is keeping them safe for use against India alone.

Why do something half heartedly? India's aim should be to make all the TSP nukes aim for unkil if possible. India has no moral obligation to carry unkil's monkey. Not that unkil is maryada purushottam when it comes to games like these.

A few hundred amirkhans getting 72ed is better than any Indian getting hurt as far as I care. Never forget 26/11 and what games unkil is playing using the blood of innocent Indian victims.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jun 2009 19:31

SSridhar wrote:Pakistan asks foreign diplomats to use private number plates in cars

The security agencies were particularly opposed to private registration plates being provided to vehicles of the Indian High Commission as the move would create problems for their operatives assigned to keep tabs on Indian diplomats

India should withdraw all diplomatic personnel due to the grave security environment in Pakistan.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 18 Jun 2009 19:54

Shiv-ji
Why unite the talebs and the pakis? Uptil now, the only uniting factor over there has been India. Here I make an assumption that parts of the taliban are not supported by the YYY.
I say, keep absolutly mum on the "internal issue" of Pakistan, while ensuring that the err, "justified" fight of the taliban to enforce sharia on the land that was created just for this purpose is fulfilled.
If this means Weapons, Intelligence, target info in the hands of the YYY Talibs, then so be it.

We should be deeply involved, but keep absolutely aloof on the surface. Keep the bhaichara / WKK / piss process on the upswing.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 18 Jun 2009 20:05

shiv:

It is one thing that Taliban, Bin Ladin etc personify evil, but that they represent the face of absolute evil is the result of US barinwashing and its mouthpiece media including in India. Even in elite discourse on Indian media, cock-tail chats, you name it; the name of Bin Ladin, Taliban, Al Queda loom large, when the real terrorists targeting India are Pakiijabis, LeT, Jaish etc; the name that every Indian sjould invoke as the prsonification of evil is Musharaff or Hafeez Saeed etc. But alasl colonialism is alve and well, physical independence for India has been achieved, but mental subjugation continues unabated.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2009 20:19

Kraghav, Point understood. No offence. The key thing is to ensure that TSPA gets hammered. Its the Pakiban/Taliban who are doing it. So per mandala theory they should be our best friends.

Moving troops away from the Intl Border will give the TSPA more leeway to launch non-state actor attacks on India. As they know the Indian retaliation will take time to mobilise and meantime US will intervene and restrain India. Recall the cartoon of the jihadi and uncle sam having a spat and the SDRE getting slapped by jihadi while uncle twists both arms of SDRE to prevent retaliation for their illusory stability? And if troops are moved away and by chance the TSPA moves them Westwards it will increase pressure on those who are doing India's job. And ensures low quality TSPA troops against those who are against it. So India by keeping its troops on the border is creating a virtual two front war for TSPA.

Also keep in mind there are many kinds of Taliban. The bestest buddies are only those who are against the TSPA. All others are haramzadas.

Sono troop withdrawl from staging areas.

-
CRS, Only on BRF you can find the mug shots of all these worthies. Its fashionable to discuss and identify with uncle with imagined maladies. At a BRF meet one new guy showed up who was asking when are 'we' getting OBL? So some of us said "Who is we kemo sabay?" Turns out the guy is 30 years resident and totally lost touch with India and came thinking its an Ind-Am pressure/focus group.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 18 Jun 2009 20:22

kvraghav wrote:^^
if you are suggesting that i am a US fan boy,then FYI i am not.But i am only worried about people endrosing taliban.The Taliban and the PA ideology is different.Every indian on BR want PA to be beaten.But in that way you must not close your eyes for the threat replacing it.Why should we think about US,when they dont care about us.The US will continue to Live even with Taliban,but can??Taliban main weapon is unconventional warfare which everyone knows we are clueless in handling..

Its not a question of endorsing Taliban, but real-politick. The Taliban may be evil, but they do not have an ideological hatred of India as the Pakijabi-dominated LeT types do to commit mass slaughter of Indians at any cost. Now the Taliban may hate the USA for any number of reasons, and in going after them, the US needs Pakijabis, which in turns means that US indirectly aids Pakijabis in satiating their blood thirst of Indians. This is the real-politick. So in turn, India's real-politick, if its is capable of executing it that is, would be to indirectly support the Talibans as they go after the Pakijabis (now again ther are lot od details here; Pakijabis don't like the Taliban in their midst, but don't mind them in Afganisthan). Do you get it? In an ideal world, both US & India should join hands and eliminate the Pakijabis and Taliban for real 'peace'. But you see, India is dominated by curry/rice eating, dark, cast-ridden, smart "Hindoos" like you & me, which the US is wary of and wants to maintain at an arm's length or more. What better way than to supply to supply fuel and harness the hatred Pakijabis have against us to cage us? Do you get it? If not, SSridhar or one of the other erudite ones can use simpler words

.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 18 Jun 2009 20:35

Breaking news on TimesNow is that Govt is mulling on reducing the Kashmir troops to 1 division (12-15k) troops.
The Army has requested Govt to wait until the Amarnath Yatra is complete. Also, GoI is planning to revoke the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act.

So, the question is what is the "quid pro quo" from US for Indian concession(s).
Or is that Congress is acting on "quid pro quo", if so what has Unkil delivered to Congress for it to swiftly act. The way US interlocutors are strutting makes me suspicious.

Added later: btw, I'm amazed at the swiftness. Perfect time for Congress to hand-over Kashmir as well. The BJP is in disarray, Commies are muddled in local politics.. everyone else is bought.
I think within just few weeks we will hear that Kashmir will be under some joint dominion.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2009 20:37

To add to the above analysis I am pretty certain that the Pakiban who are fighting the TSPA are Pashtunistan folks and not the Islamist dregs who are non-state actors. The latter are firmly TSPA assets to be used on India and anyone else as situation warrants.

The big problem is Indian media has made common cause with US and feels that all terrorists are same and confuses Indians.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 18 Jun 2009 20:55

ramana wrote:And if troops are moved away and by chance the TSPA moves them Westwards it will increase pressure on those who are doing India's job. And ensures low quality TSPA troops against those who are against it. So India by keeping its troops on the border is creating a virtual two front war for TSPA.

Also keep in mind there are many kinds of Taliban. The bestest buddies are only those who are against the TSPA. All others are haramzadas.

At a BRF meet one new guy showed up who was asking when are 'we' getting OBL? So some of us said "Who is we kemo sabay?" Turns out the guy is 30 years resident and totally lost touch with India and came thinking its an Ind-Am pressure/focus group.

Just felt the need to mark the Indian Nationalist Truth in red!

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 18 Jun 2009 20:56

I have a very bad feeling about this cashmere troop reduction.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Jun 2009 20:57

Female suicide bombers ready in Waziristan

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 18 Jun 2009 21:04

More Breaking News on Times Now / CNN IBN

Zardari backs out of the next planned meeting with MMS at the NAM Summit next week, apparantly due to the snub he was given in front of the cameras by MMS

Lesson Learnt - GUBO in closed rooms is fine, but we are all "Pak" in front of the cameras onlee

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 18 Jun 2009 21:06

SSridhar wrote:Female suicide bombers ready in Waziristan

LAHORE: Eastern Turkistan Islami Party has prepared a female suicide bomber in Waziristan, which may target any important personality or a building, sources told Geo News Thursday.

Punjab Home Secretary Nadeem Hasan Asif dispatched a letter to the Law Enforcement Agencies.

The letter says the female bomber may be wearing a cloak (burqa).

The Home Secretary warned the LEAs of Punjab to be more alert and vigilant, adding the terrorists of Turkistan Party have planned targeting the significant installations by

More false propaganda by these corrupt Jernails, who have sold themselves to Amreeka and Cheen, and are willing to stab Islam in the back.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 18 Jun 2009 21:09

Dilbu wrote:I have a very bad feeling about this cashmere troop reduction.

Lets wait and see how this pans out. Though it definitely seems that the govt is bowing to US pressure, on the other side, if it goes ahead, the one positive aspect that comes out is that more units of the army will atleast get a breather and time to re-orient and re-train for conventional operations.

As it is, bulk of the CI outside of Srinagar is being done by RR battalions which are staffed by regular army troops and officers. However, leaving just one division in the whole of valley to take care of the LoC seems to be a case of misreporting. It should be more like one division being de-inducted.

But the whole story needs to be corroborated by official sources. Till then, who knows ...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jun 2009 21:10

Lashkar, not Taliban, poses biggest threat to Pak: Expert

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 18 Jun 2009 21:29

NRao wrote:Lashkar, not Taliban, poses biggest threat to Pak: Expert

Washington While fears are rife that Pakistan could fall into the hands of the Taliban, an American expert on the South Asian issues has warned that it was not the Taliban, but Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT), which poses the real danger to the sovereignty of the troubled nation.

Famous author and thinker, Selig Harrison, warned that the LeT is could topple the democratic set-up of Pakistan and take over the reigns of the country.

In his article carried out in the 'The Boston Globe', Harrison stressed that there was an immediate need to disarm the group’s militias.

“It does not come from the Taliban guerrillas now battling the Pakistan Army in the Swat borderlands. It comes from a proliferating network of heavily armed Islamist militias in the Punjab heartland and major cities directed by Lashkar-e-Toiba, a close ally of al Qaeda, which staged the terrorist attack last November in Mumbai, India,” Harrison said.

Harrison asked the United States not to make any new aid commitments to Pakistan until it takes decisive action to disarm LeT.

“Disarming Lashkar-e-Toiba should be the top US priority in Pakistan because it would greatly reduce the possibility of a coup by Islamist sympathizers in the Armed Forces,” The Nation quoted Harrison, as saying.

“The Islamists in the Army and the powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) are not likely to risk a coup in Islamabad unless they can count on armed support from Lashkar-e-Toiba and its allies to help them consolidate their grip on the countryside,” he added.

I liked the way, Selig Harrison has finally laid it out for the US mind.

Up till now, Pakistan has extorted America only with hot air. Taliban 60 miles from Slumbad onlee! Then Pakistan gets loads of cash, and then go hammer away at the only extremists not having ISI registration cards, even as they keep their assets safe elsewhere, far away from the US public opinion.

Selig Harrison has pointed out, that the extremists most likely to overthrow the US-loved colgate-Presidents and whiskey generals would be LeT, and not Taliban. Pakistani Nukes are in danger not from the Taliban but from LeT. Many Pakistani commentators, who had not been briefed about the secret plan of dog and pony show, did point out that the Taliban are mostly fish out water in the plains of Pakjab, and there is absolutely no chance that they can take over power in Islamabad. That is correct!

Those who can take over power, are already very close to the power centers of Pakistan, the LeT. The Americans have up till now considered LeT only as the outfit, that prickles India once in a while, but those are Indo-centered terrorists so we don't need to deal with them.. Now the LeT is for the first time being projected differently, as a group that threatens to steal nuclear material. That is the language, that may penetrate the thick skulls in Washington. But then again, this is still a lonely article out there.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2009 21:35

BRF long ago identified L-e-T as the TSPA terror arm for all over India and the West. It is invovled in all the attacks in India and has modules in Australia, UK and US. Its the J-e-M thats Kashmir centric.

L-e-T is TSPA's Al Qaida. AlQ was US' snake that turned on its master.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jun 2009 21:58

Keeping troops on the border with Pakistan did not prevent Mumbai or any of the other attacks, which will come regardless of troops on the border.

But I detect, on this forum a general feeling that seems to say "Oh India is sincere, while Pakistan and the US are insincere"

All I am saying is India need not be sincere and we have no proof either way about India's sincerity. If India says it is reducing troops and makes cosmetic moves - the actual drop in guard may be far less than the media reports or what we fear. But we are unwilling to credit the government and army with intelligence even as we discard our own intelligence and forget that all terrorist attacks on India occurred despite Indian troop build up. A temporary lull after the 2002 build up was broken. And even though there was no "troop build up" after 26/11 we have had only one more terror attack in 7 months. It is only a matter of time before the next attack occurs. Troops at he border cannot prevent that, but a comprehensive checkmate of Pakistan might do that.

There is a trust/non-trust factor that I believe makes the forum biased.

For many of us:
1) the US is always represented by staunchly pro-US people who are insincere double crossers when it comes to India
2) Pakistan is always represented by staunchly pro-Pakistan people who are insincere double crossers when i comes to India
3) India is always represented by people who are ant-Indian losers who are about to double cross fellow Indians but are nevertheless sincere and honest about it when they promise things to Pakistan and the US.

When a large number of individuals agree independently on one of more of these points, and do not dispute the others, we have a "loose consensus" on BRF backed by self praise. The entire line of thinking on this forum revolves around thee 3 premises and if something does not fit - a conspiracy theory has to be invented to make it fit. For example Shirish's (IMO beautiful) story in the nw locked thread is a conspiracy theory - but he admits it is a story.

But these 3 premises may not be right. India could be insincere and Indians too could be plotting to double cross and mislead the US and Pakistan. It is important not to discard this possibility.

For India to reduce troops from a particular zone - it is likely that there are credible reports of reductions on the Pakistani side. The toss up is between maintaining a heavy troop strength despite such reports or moving troops out for a specific geopolitical purpose on the understanding that the guard is not being dropped. One of the hallmarks of Indians is not to trust the other Indian to do the right thing.

It is heartening (to me) to hear that the Pakistanis are killing other Pakistanis. Killing people leads to lifelong enmities. But as usual we come up with conspiracy theories to show why lifelong enmity occurs for some and does not occur for others.

For example - we are nationalist Indians who have been wronged by Pakistan. We have a lifelong enmity with Pakistan

Pakistanis on the other hand are different. So even when Pakistanis kill other Pakistanis, they will make up and live together as if nothing has happened

At yet another level, the number of nationalists in India is not enough to elect a good government. The government of India is about to give away Kashmir. They too, like Pakistanis do not harbor lifelong enmity against killers of their kin. There may be an unstated religion related bias here

So when humans who lose family are given personalities to suit our theories we can only reach a limited set of conclusions about events, and we heap praise upon ourselves for doing that.

A far as I am concerned I would love to see the "crack troops" at the border with India go and kill some Taliban. It is important that internal enmities in Pakistan are increased and nothing increases internal enmity like killing. There is a limit to which you can take conspiracy theories. Pakistan for example has depended on terror attacks to build up a conspiracy theory among Indian Hindus that Muslims are out to get them, and provoke an anti-Muslim reaction. India has not fallen for this.
In the same manner - it can be expected that Pakistanis too are unlikely to fall for the Yehudi-Yamriki-Yindoo conspiracy theories beyond a point - provided the killing goes on long enough.

The dirtiest trick that India can play on Pakistan is to act as if we mean them no harm. But it requires an ability to show deceit to do that. and we on BRF do not believe that Indians can be deceitful to others,(except to fellow) Indians, while we are sure that others are deceitful only to Indians but not to themselves.. That is a conspiracy theory.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 18 Jun 2009 22:00

RajeshA wrote:Selig Harrison has pointed out, that the extremists most likely to overthrow the US-loved colgate-Presidents and whiskey generals would be LeT, and not Taliban. Pakistani Nukes are in danger not from the Taliban but from LeT.

This bum is in danger is a red herring and in no way alters the equation vis-a-vis India. However radical LeT might be, they are not stupid to use the bum against India. The model they use to take over Pakistan (terror/ideological unity/running charity & recruitment/money from the gulf/madrassas as outposts) will be the preferred model to take over India. They want to rule India, make India Islamic, kill kuffars and not nuke India, this is a crucial difference.

I hope everybody realizes that "Pak nukes in danger" does not mean LeT will get the bum and threaten to use it against desh/US. It is the code speak for "the country is going to be overrun by islamists and is either going to fail or radicalize there by spewing out nuclear scientists and material to the highest bidder".

Pakis have already demonstrated that they have the will and the capability to sell and export the bum to whoever is willing to shell out the cash. Also, the think tanks are not stupid to not realize that proliferation to Libya, Iran, Iraq and probably Syria was more for ideological reason than cash. The proliferation stopped because of the moolah leverage of Unkil. If the fundoos take over, this leverage is lost.

Think of Pakistan as a combination of the Chinis and Russia/Balkan states after collapse of the Soviet Union. Except a few hundred times more impoverished, brainwashed and crazy.

Unkil realizes this and has a two pronged strategy. Prop up the pakis by all means possible so they dont "fail". Terrorism against India is in no way relevant to the question of aid to Pakistan. Purge the army/civvies of the extremists so that they have a client-master equation with the bearded fundoos and not a "we are one and the same" equation.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 18 Jun 2009 22:14

shiv wrote: Pakistan for example has depended on terror attacks to build up a conspiracy theory among Indian Hindus that Muslims are out to get them, and provoke an anti-Muslim reaction. India has not fallen for this.

The dirtiest trick that India can play on Pakistan is to act as if we mean them no harm. But it requires an ability to show deceit to do that. and we on BRF do not believe that Indians can be deceitful to others,(except to fellow) Indians, while we are sure that others are deceitful only to Indians but not to themselves.. That is a conspiracy theory.

Brilliant post as usual Shiv-ji

I for one, always thought that Indian armed forces, netas and babus did show a level of competency far beyond what is acknowledged in BRF. In spite of WKKs, Psy-ops, Unkil backed APHC, Paki backed terrorists, two timing local politicians - we have done just fine in JK.

The raising of Rastriya Rifles as far back as the 90's and the strategy of grids and dominating every grid was a COIN strategy far ahead of its time ! (and now you see talking heads on MSM making it look as though the "surge" is something that the brilliant amreeki jernails came up with).

ABV conducting fair and strict election was a brilliant move to cut the feet under APHC. He put them in a damned if they do participate (thereby revealing that they have no support among the people and also look like sellouts) and damned if they dont participate (the elected parties take up all the airtime and mindspace as representatives of JK) situation. The gradual decline of the paki supported scum started back then. These forced the pakis into making stupid mistakes like assasinating Abdul Ghani Lone and threatening Hizb against the ceasefire. (Hizb could have consolidated their power aka Hezbollah if they had a political party/armed wing and participated in the election. The most dangerous scenario to India. Imagine the state of JK if they had a set up of a political party which controlled a local militia - the fight would be lost).

Pakis are going down the drain fast. Ultimately, no matter how distasteful it might sound, the only way of winning is to show conditions on that side of the border vs this side and convincing the population that we are the better option.

Make no mistake, the reduction in the army divisions will be accompanied by increase in police forces. Nobody is just going to pack up and depart leaving the store unguarded. This might work out great in the long run.

As even the Pakis realize "Not even India in cashmere killed so many muslims and made so many more refugees in their own country". We need to reduce the troops in JK, send a few sacks of flour to IDPs in Pakistan and propose that pakis de-escalate their 100000000 troops NWFP/FATA who rape 10000000 wimmens daily.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 18 Jun 2009 22:20

Sometime ago I had questioned the strength of the Taliban and asked how they could hope to take over Slumabad when they were unable to cow down the Shias of Parchinar in FATA.

One more thing…the Taliban clerics have sent a demarche to all the sarkari clerics of Punjab and asked them to desist from supporting the establishment.

The LET and other sarkari jehadis are still firmly on the Pakistani govt’s side and have desisted from coming out openly in favor of the Taliban. Recall in the battle of old days when muslim troops in the service of kafir kings desert their ranks at the crucial moment tipping the battle in favor of the Momeen. This shows that the Taliban’s hour has not come yet.

I think BEF made a fundamental error in swallowing up the line of the media that the Taliban are on the verge of taking over Pakistan. We are overestimating the strength of the Taliban. While it is true that Pakjab is getting Deobandized more and more…that does not mean it is going to rule the Pakjabi countryside through it’s fatwas. The Paki establishment is very content with the islamization of the heartland as it allows them to have iron control over the peasantry.

India, by freeing up troops for Pakistan to take on the Pukthun nationalists are betraying the Pakhtuns for the second time.

Regardless of how many suicide bombers the Taliban send to Slumabad, they are going to get the thrashing of their life…..You heard it here first.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Jun 2009 22:22

ramana wrote:BRF long ago identified L-e-T as the TSPA terror arm for all over India and the West. It is invovled in all the attacks in India and has modules in Australia, UK and US. Its the J-e-M thats Kashmir centric.

L-e-T is TSPA's Al Qaida. AlQ was US' snake that turned on its master.

There are many information on LeT showing that it was formed in early 1990s, late 1980s or 1988 or 1994. There is not one date or year which is shown as the birth of LeT. The earliest year for the formation is 1986 during the soviet jihad in Afghanistan. The group is really an army outfit trained to wage war against a state and create large scale destruction.

Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT)

Lashkar-e-Taiba was founded in the Kunar province of Afghanistan, and it is the most prominent Ahle Hadith group operating in Pakistan and Kashmir. It is the militant wing of a large religious organization, Markaz Dawa-ul-Irshad, which was formed in the mid- to late 1980s by Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, Zafar Iqbal, and Abdullah Azzam.49 The Pakistani government formally banned the group and froze its assets during a crackdown in January 2002.50 The Markaz runs a large, self-sufficient complex at its headquarters in Punjab, near Lahore, and most of its members are Punjabi. The Markaz also runs an extensive network of madaris and ostensibly legitimate businesses. While it receives much of its funding and resources from Pakistani patrons, it casts its ideological net much wider. Besides fighting to bring Kashmir into the fold of pristine Ahle Hadith Islam, LeT also wants to unite the entire Muslim community of South Asia and beyond.
As an offshoot of the Markaz, LeT initiated militant activities in Jammu and Kashmir in the early 1990s, distancing itself from the rifts that arose between mujahideen in Afghanistan. At that time, it linked up with the group Islami Inqilabi Mahaz51 to infiltrate the LoC.52 LeT is made up of several thousand members from Pakistan and Pakistan-administered and Indian-administered Kashmir, and veterans of the Afghan war.53 The group also claims to have members from seventeen different countries, including Algeria, Sudan, Yemen, Iran, Chechnya, the United States, and the UK. According to associates close to Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, LeT has stockpiled enough arms and ammunition in the Kashmir valley to fight the Indian army for at least six months. LeT claims the largest militant network in Pakistan by maintaining 2,200 offices nationwide and some two dozen camps to launch fighters across the LoC, though it also claims to have decreased the number of its camps under post-September 11 scrutiny.54
Using Quranic verse as justification, Lashkar’s rhetoric deems jihad, whenever and wherever Islam is under attack, to be a religious obligation for all Muslims. In the book Hum Jihad kyun Kar rahe hain? (Why Are We Waging Jihad?), the group declares that the United States, India,
49 There seem to be conflicting accounts of when the Markaz Dawa-ul-Irshad was founded. The MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base puts its founding in 1989, whereas Saeed Shafqat puts it in 1987. Amir Rana also gives a conflicting date, 1986, and Amir Mir, in The True Face of Jehadis, writes that LeT was also founded in 1986, as an original component of the Markaz.
50 U.S. Department of State, Country Reports on Terrorism 2005, 207.
51 Very little is known about the structure and ideology of Islami Inqilabi Mahaz. The group claimed responsibility for the murder of four Americans and their Pakistani liaison in Karachi in 1997. However, shadow and obfuscation surround the group and its origins, especially following its claim to have detonated a series of bombs in New Delhi in October 2005. Some analysts believe that Islami Inqilabi Mahaz is simply another name used by LeT to evade scrutiny. See the group profile at the MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base at http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=4613. Also see “Inqilabi just another name for LeT,” Times of India, October 30, 2005, www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1280239.cms. See also Randeep Ramesh, “Police Arrest 20 in Search for New Delhi Bombers,” The Guardian, October 31, 2005, http://www.guardian.co.uk/kashmir/Story ... 67,00.html.
52 Swami, “Terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir,” 58, table 1. While Swami puts the origin of LeT in 1990, there is disagreement her as well. Amir Mir states that the group was formed in 1986 alongside its parent group, whereas Shafqat puts the rise of both groups one year later, in 1987. There are also conflicting dates for LeT’s first attack in Kashmir. Amir Rana puts its first attack in January 1990, with the murder of five members of the Indian air force as they waited at a bus stop in Rowalpura. See Amir Rana, A to Z of Jehadi Organizations in Pakistan, 329. However, the South Asia Terrorism Portal agrees with Swami that LeT’s first attack in Kashmir was not until 1993.
53 U.S. Department of State, Country Reports on Terrorism 2005, 208.
54 Abbas, “The Militant Brigade,” 61. For a similar account, see Mir, The True Face of Jehadis, 96.
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and Israel are existential threats to Islam. Much of the group’s literature and teachings justify a nearly perpetual state of jihad and interpret all Muslim territory as subject to Muslim re-conquest in the broadest terms.55 Jihad also includes the right to avenge the loss of any land once under Muslim rule, including countries such as Spain. Therefore, Hafiz Saeed not only wants to unite Kashmir with Pakistan, but he also wants to see Pakistan become part of a “global Islamic state.”56
After its reported involvement in a spate of attacks, LeT has been touted as the leading—and the most dangerous—militant jihadi group operating within Pakistan and Kashmir57. It has been implicated in an attack on the Srinigar airport that killed five, an attack on a Srinigar police station that killed eight, and an attack against Indian border forces that killed at least four. It also claimed responsibility for an attack on the Indian army base in Kaluchak that killed thirty-six. Moreover, it is one of the primary groups, along with Jaish-e-Mohammed, suspected in the December 2001 attack on the Indian parliament. In March 2002, senior al Qaeda member Abu Zubaydah was apprehended at a house in Faisalabad belonging to an LeT member. LeT has also claimed responsibility for the December 2000 attack on the Red Fort in New Dehli, which would substantiate the group’s claims that it has extended its operations inside India and Indian-administered Kashmir.58 However, LeT may be in the midst of a shift in tactics. Rather than sending forward large companies of up to sixty militants to confront Indian security forces, the group has opted for smaller cells of five to fifteen mujahideen,59 perhaps to make operations less conspicuous and more in line with Musharraf’s “moderated jihad” strategy.
Although accounts of the LeT training regimen differ, scholars and analysts agree that the training yields well-planned and well-executed attacks. According to Saeed Shafqat, training in LeT takes place in two stages, with trainers divided into specialists and ordinary trainers. Some reports also note a distinction in trainees, between militants and ulema (religious scholars).60 There is also some disagreement over the indoctrination that members receive before the first stage of training. Amir Rana states that, as expected, many LeT trainees come from the traditionally South Asian schools of Islam (Deobandi, Hanafi, and Barelvi). Therefore, the Markaz teaches them Ahle Hadith principles in two separate courses, Dora A’ama and Dora Khasa. The former is a twenty-one-day course in which the Ahle Hadith creed is taught, and the latter is a three-month period during which Ahle Hadith is taught as the supreme form of Islam.61 This differs a bit from Shafqat’s statement that a fifteen-day dawa tour in the broader community precedes military training. Three months after this initial tour, each trainee is evaluated.62 The first stage of training then begins, lasting for twenty-one days. After another
55 Haqqani, “The Ideologies of South Asian Jihadi Groups,” 25.
56 Mir, The True Face of Jehadis, 110.
57 Evans, “The Kashmir Insurgency,” 71.
58 Abbas, “The Militant Brigade,” 61.
59 Mir, The True Face of Jehadis, 96.
60 See the South Asia Terrorism Portal profile for Lashkar-e-Taiba at http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... _toiba.htm.
61 Amir Rana, A to Z of Jehadi Organizations in Pakistan, 335.
62 The South Asia Terrorism Portal also mentions the Dora A’ama and the Dora Khasa, but it does not specify whether these are religious indoctrination courses or part of the military training. The Portal also states that the first phase of training is a two-month course on the handling of small arms, rocket launchers, and grenades. See http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... _toiba.htm.
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evaluation period, the second stage begins, teaching combat tactics such as operating bombs and rockets, conditioning for marches over treacherous terrain, and general guerrilla tac63
The extent of LeT assets is not fully known, but the group receives donations from the Pakistani diaspora community of the Gulf States and the UK. It also receives financial support from Muslim NGOs and businesspeople from Pakistan and Kashmir. Donation boxes have also reappeared in public spaces and outside mosques (following an absence after other militant groups were banned), but the lion’s share of funds still comes from large donations by wealthy patrons. Markaz leaders are also reportedly making numerous property investments throughout the country.64 The group maintains extensive ties to groups throughout the Muslim world, including Chechnya, the Philippines, and the Middle East. These ties are maintained through the Markaz, but LeT also disseminates its message and calls for donations through its Web site Jamaat-ud-Daawa. Like many banned militant groups, LeT has also removed most of its assets from its previous bank accounts and invested in legal enterprises.65 The group focuses most of its recruiting and propaganda efforts on rural areas.66 However, it is also known to distribute propaganda and recruitment materials, such as its Jehad Times, the speeches of Abdullah Azzam, and pamphlets on the virtues of jihad around the world, outside mosques and even at Tablighi Jamaat’s annual ijtima in Raiwind.67 The Markaz also publishes an Urdu-language magazine, Aldawa, which has a reported circulation of 80,000.68
The Markaz Dawa-ul-Irshad has a largely self-sufficient, heavily guarded compound covering nearly two hundred acres, situated on the Grand Trunk Road at Murdike, in the Punjab province of Pakistan.69 The compound has been declared an Islamic state, banning music, television, and smoking. It is from this fortress that the Markaz coordinates its network of social services, 135 secondary schools, 5 madaris, 16 Islamic institutions, and a convoy of mobile clinics and blood banks.70 The Markaz employs a teaching philosophy emphasizing both Islamic and modern education. This combination of Islamic principles with science and technology is used, according to Saeed Shafqat, “to produce an alternate model of governance and development.” A Dawat university is even under construction at the compound.71 Hafiz Saeed also champions the twin roles of dawa and jihad, and the unique interweaving of jihad and tabligh are an LeT hallmark. According to Hafiz Saeed, “Islam propounds both Dawa and Jihad. Both are equally important and inseparable… The need is to fuse the two together. This is the only way to bring about change among individuals, society and the world.”72 This all culminates in an educational philosophy for LeT that presents modern technology, tabligh, and jihad as means to power. The power that Hafiz Saeed envisions is distinct from Western democratic politics. For him, “Islamic politics” harnesses the true desires and efficiencies of men by giving the people a sense of direction. According to Hafiz Saeed, Islam is contra democracy. He eschews the preaching of
63 Shafqat, “From Official Islam to Islamisim,” 144.
64 Mir, The True Face of Jehadis, p. 101.
65 U.S. Department of State, Country Reports on Terrorism 2004, 103.
66 Abbas, “The Militant Brigade,” 61.
67 Mir, The True Face of Jehadis, 101.
68 Shafqat, “From Official Islam to Islamisim,” 142.
69 Ibid.
70 Abbas, “The Militant Brigade,” 61. For a similar account, see Mir, The True Face of Jehadis, 97.
71 Shafqat, “From Official Islam to Islamisim,” 142. See also Mir, The True Face of Jehadis, 100.
72 Quoted in Shafqat, “From Official Islam to Islamisim,” 143.
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those who believe that an Islamic society can burgeon within a democratic system.73 Western-style governance has corrupted the pristine rule of Islam, and the need is “to save the Ummah from this dangerous trend…and instead of adopting other systems [we] must restructure the entire system on Islamic principles.”74
The United States government placed LeT on its list of international terrorist organizations in 2001, and the Pakistani government placed the group on a watch list in 2003. Because of this increased scrutiny, the Markaz was eventually renamed Jamaat-ul-Dawa (JuD). Both Jamaat-ul-Dawa and LeT continue to grow despite the circumscription of LeT and despite JuD’s position on the government watch list.75 Hafiz Saeed was arrested on December 31, 2001, for his inflammatory speeches, but the Lahore High Court ordered his release a year later.76 Saeed then ceded control of the militant wing to Maulana Abdul Wahid Kashmiri and focused his efforts on leading Jamaat-ul-Dawa. There is speculation that this shift occurred in order to give the Musharraf government wiggle room amid claims that it is directly aiding militant groups.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 18 Jun 2009 22:26

Anujan wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Selig Harrison has pointed out, that the extremists most likely to overthrow the US-loved colgate-Presidents and whiskey generals would be LeT, and not Taliban. Pakistani Nukes are in danger not from the Taliban but from LeT.
This bum is in danger is a red herring and in no way alters the equation vis-a-vis India.

If the US perceives LeT and other Pakjabi outfits as dangerous to their plans of a clean master-slave relationship, or dangerous on the proliferation front, then it is possible that US starts insisting on Pakistan Army to get rid of LeT as well. That would be of benefit to India, because of heavy involvement of LeT in terrorism in India. So it does alter the equation.

This is however, at this point in time, merely hypothetical!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2009 22:41

We are here to critique the TSP. I dont undertand the urge to take pot shots on BRF members. Some folks start blogs and berate BRF while others sit here and do the same. Must be doing something right.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Jun 2009 22:59

Paul wrote: Regardless of how many suicide bombers the Taliban send to Slumabad, they are going to get the thrashing of their life…..You heard it here first.

I have been saying something on the same lines and raising a question which seems to get lost over and over. IFF TSPA really wanted Taliban would be history, everybody pretty much uniformly agrees with this.

Yet we have this shadow war where no sides are winning or losing -- in reality. Why is this?

Over long term the only thing that this is doing is increasing the net amount of Islamisation and radicalization within Pakistan. It is as if the entire country is a Fast breeder reactor for Islamic Jehadism.

Is this accidental? What interest would US have in making its assets fight with each other and destroy each other?

We really need to look at the big picture here of whats actually happening -- some time the truth is conspiracy theory -- Indian history is full of conspiracies. Whats the great anathema to looking for conspiracies?

After all conspiracies do happen don't they -- if you know them its truth if you dont its a conspiracy? A bit like Schrodingers cat me thinks.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jun 2009 23:07

Bulls Eye!

'NAM summit: Zardari opts out to avoid meeting PM Manmohan'

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Jun 2009 23:13

chetak wrote:Bulls Eye!

'NAM summit: Zardari opts out to avoid meeting PM Manmohan'

Well , he should not be afraid should emulate his Jernails by attending the NAM wearing designer Shuttlecock burka.
The onlee thing he might losse is Colgate money for not showing his teeth.