Indian Education System

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jun 2009 13:18

Wrong Move

Sibal plans to scrap 'traumatic' Class 10 Board exams by Shishir Gupta: Indian Express

IMHO, this is most definitely a wrong move! Meritocracy demands that the system filters the strong from the weak, the intelligent from the less so!
I live in Germany but I have done my schooling in India. Here, in Germany, the standards of education have fallen and fallen, because of this liberal 'progressive' thinking, where the country wants to 'unburden' the children.
Class X exams prepare the children for what is coming, and that is Class XII exams, the admission exams to various colleges, UPSC exams, etc. Class X exams is the single most powerful thing that focuses the minds of the children and parents, to become more mindful of educational requirements of the children. Take that away, and what one is left with is the Pyrrhic success of Bollywood films and T20 games.
Class X exams keeps India in the running for the excellency in education in the world. Otherwise we are headed the way of those 'developed' countries, where children cannot do even the most simple maths. If at all he should be looking at the education methods in China, Korea and Japan, and not at Western models. The Western models of secondary education are all failures.
There is certainly a lot one can do to improve on the quality of the examination and to make it more representative of true knowledge and its applicability, but to do away with it is the wrong move.

Kapil Sibal is choosing the easy and the popular way, but the hard way is the right way! This is a devastating move, bound to weaken India's future.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 25 Jun 2009 13:52

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?a=jg ... vsv=TopHP1

Planning to do away with 10th board exams

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 25 Jun 2009 14:50

.

I am forecasting 10-20 posts cursing Sibal on his decision to scrap 10th class exam.

I have a politest request to all anti-Sibal postors -- pls do also suggest ways how he can be stopped.

.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 25 Jun 2009 15:38

yashpalcommitteereport.pdf

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jun 2009 16:07

RajeshA wrote:Wrong Move

Sibal plans to scrap 'traumatic' Class 10 Board exams by Shishir Gupta: Indian Express

Kapil Sibal is choosing the easy and the popular way, but the hard way is the right way! This is a devastating move, bound to weaken India's future.

No RajeshA. It is better to remove the pointless Class X exams and retain the Class XII exams that are the only ones that count.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 25 Jun 2009 16:41

i think a simple solution is to let the kids study subjects like history, civics in local languages and the science\math in english.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 25 Jun 2009 17:36

Sibal unveils mega edu revamp plan

Unveiling the UPA government’s “100 days” agenda for education, Sibal said: “Our first goal is to get the Right to Education Bill (making education compulsory for all) passed by Parliament.”

I laud the intent and the effort. Some change, any change in the present set of circumstances is progress onlee. Hopefully, momentum doesn't vanish after the first 100 days.

Wonder how the 'compulsory edu' thing will work. Mid day meals schemes do far more to bring rural (and even urban poor) kids to school than any laws can hope to do.

The following are the highlights of the UPA’s education revamp plan:

* Class 10 boards to be made optional. De-traumatise school education as the present marking system creates pressure on parents and children.
* Move from a marks-based system to grades-based system in schools.
* Implement right to free and compulsory education for all.
* Comprehensive policy on public-private partnership in education soon.
* Madrassa education to be brought on par with CBSE. Set up an All India Madrassa Board.
* Leverage the use of information technology in secondary schools, open schools and distant education. To facilitate this, bring broadband connectivity to all villages in three years.
* Foreign universities to be allowed to come to India but their entry and functioning to be regulated.{Trojan horse invited in onlee....}
* Laws to curb educational malpractice and prevent ragging.
* Explore the possibility of an independent accreditation body to judge schools.
* Educational loans for students wherein the interest on the loan will be paid by the government. Direct credit of scholarship of 41,000 boys and 41,000 girls within the next 100 days.
* Teachers’ skills to be upgraded. A curriculum for teachers’ education to be announced soon.
* Explore possibility of a unified board system. Also, a unified body to take over from bodies like the UGC and AICTE.
* New “brain game” policy to attract foreign talent.

Nice. There was talk of going for a common comprehensive SAT type system for college admissions. Laudable indeed.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 25 Jun 2009 17:54

IIMC Space Crunch

A new batch of budding managers will get into the B-school groove at IIM Calcutta next week with a crash course in space management.

The class of 2009 will have to make do with cramped classrooms and multiple-occupancy lodging despite paying more for an MBA degree — Rs 4.5 lakh a year — than previous batches.

The annual fee may have more than doubled — it was Rs 2 lakh in 2007 — but space has shrunk on the Joka campus because of the quota system that has seen a 36 per cent increase in the number of students over the past two years. The number of freshers this year is 408, up from 318 in 2008.

Wow. Just 2 lacs as late as '07? Moi remembers when it was 1.67 lacs back in '99.

While the number of seats is set to increase by another 18 per cent in 2010, the infrastructure upgrade needed to comfortably accommodate even this year’s batch is still some distance away from completion.

“We will accommodate the students across our facilities on campus,” said Saibal Chattopadhyay, the dean of programme initiatives.

Like a wiseguy said abt desi infrastruc initiatives.....

The shoe's gotta pinch a little first before we can think of going for a bigger one, yes?

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 25 Jun 2009 18:51

Huge pool of unskilled youngsters is disaster: Sibal
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... r%3a+Sibal

Only 11 out of 100 students going to school in India reach graduation levels - this is a recipe for disaster, says new Human Resource Development Minister Kapil Sibal as he pushes the cause of primary and secondary education.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jun 2009 21:00

shiv wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Wrong Move

Sibal plans to scrap 'traumatic' Class 10 Board exams by Shishir Gupta: Indian Express

Kapil Sibal is choosing the easy and the popular way, but the hard way is the right way! This is a devastating move, bound to weaken India's future.
No RajeshA. It is better to remove the pointless Class X exams and retain the Class XII exams that are the only ones that count.

Class X exam is extremely useful in deciding early on, which stream the student is to follow: Sciences, Commerce, Humanities, etc. This may have its own drawbacks, but at least it gives the students some focus, and narrows down their choices.
In Germany, I have seen so many students, who start going to college, and still are not sure whether they want to proceed with it, or change mid-course to something totally different, and because of this dilly-dallying often make a mess of their college studies.
Class X exams are an important first stage for the school-goer to make decisions about the general direction he or she wants to pursue.

From my experience with both systems, a system with Class X exams and one without, I can only say, that India without the Class X exams would be far worse off. Sometimes one cannot appreciate something one has, until many years after one has lost it. One starts seeing only the negatives of the current system, but fails to appreciate the positives. Class X exams is a great Indian institution, and I do not wish it to be axed, simply because it was the hard route.

It is the first opportunity for school-goers to compare themselves with millions of others in India, and make a judgment about themselves, get to learn one's own strengths and weaknesses, something they will require the rest of their life!

But then we have lost the appetite for a good fight, and just want to have it easy like all those dimwits in the Western countries.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 25 Jun 2009 21:23

krishnan wrote:Planning to do away with 10th board exams

Good move. At the very least they should stop counting marks obtained in non-essential subjects like Hindi towards Jr. College admissions.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jun 2009 21:25

RajeshA wrote: From my experience with both systems, a system with Class X exams and one without, I can only say, that India without the Class X exams would be far worse off. Sometimes one cannot appreciate something one has, until many years after one has lost it. One starts seeing only the negatives of the current system, but fails to appreciate the positives. Class X exams is a great Indian institution, and I do not wish it to be axed, simply because it was the hard route.

Class X exams, based on a 130 year old British system is pure torture for kids. You would not wish it on your kid, and having two children of mine go through the system - I am really happy at this enlightenment in India. The class X exams are as necessary as a hole in the head.

If you have not seen the way India and schools have gone here in India in the last 20 to 25 years you will not know what kind of mess India has got itself into with its idiotic standards and colonial British style education.

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Jun 2009 21:29

^ Gurudev couple of things here, is it the exams you have an issue with or the way students are coaxed and constantly pressurized to prepare for the exams ? The fear instilled by the parents and teachers in event of a failure actually makes kids shy away from exams and eventually even studies.

Indians seem to make demons out of everything in this case class 'X' exams are the one on the receiving end. The need for reforms notwithstanding exams imho are an integral part of any academic process.

HRD minister has only expressed his opinion on the Xth class Board exams; unless he comes up with a alternative and equally effective way of gauging performance I don't know what will the ministry achieve by merely doing away with the exams.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 25 Jun 2009 21:32

At the very least they need to do away with exams for non-essential subjects like Hindi for those want to study science or Math for those who want to study art. In the absence of such flexibility, I feel it's a good move to do away with the Class X exams.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jun 2009 21:34

negi wrote:^ Gurudev couple of things here, is it the exams you have an issue with or the way students are coaxed and constantly pressurized to prepare of the exams . The fear instilled by the parents and teachers in event of a failure actually makes kids shy away from exams and eventually even studies.

Indians seem to make demons out of everything in this case class 'X' exams are the one on the receiving end. The need for reforms notwithstanding exams imho are an integral part of any academic process.

Let us just agree to disagree. I am supremely happy with the idea of change and would love to see it happen. On TV at this point in time (9-30 PM IST) every single Indian educator supports it, and all parents I spoke to support it.

What we need is education, not exams. In India we have exams without education.

And the idea was not Kapil Sibals - it has been mooted for years by educators.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jun 2009 21:42

shiv wrote:Class X exams, based on a 130 year old British system is pure torture for kids. You would not wish it on your kid, and having two children of mine go through the system - I am really happy at this enlightenment in India. The class X exams are as necessary as a hole in the head.

But we do need holes in our head - mouth, nose and ears!

If you have not seen the way India and schools have gone here in India in the last 20 to 25 years you will not know what kind of mess India has got itself into with its idiotic standards and colonial British style education.

Shiv ji, you're right. I've not seen first hand since the last 20+ years. But as far as I remember, even in my time, they used to be hard as well. Actually, it is somewhat early for me to be thinking about this, as my kid is still in the oven, but I would have wished my kid to go through the Indian school drill. In my time, I found the pressure quite exciting actually.

Considering however your bad experience with this, I do understand your viewpoint.

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Jun 2009 22:25

shiv wrote: What we need is education, not exams. In India we have exams without education.

I would say at least as of now we have 'exams' unless the education scene itself is improved ,removing the exams we would be discouraging those who study on their own. I am apprehensive of this new development for the simple reason that while it does talk about doing away with the exams it does not say what alternative arrangement they are gonna put in place to verify and gauge the student's performance .

It is good and sounds cool to talk about change but before doing that one should have a clear idea about the better alternatives. Lets wait what the HRD minister has in store for us .

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 25 Jun 2009 22:50

Class X exams aren't abolished for everyone. If you are in the same school and want to continue to 11th std in same school, then there is no need to take the board exam according to the minister. If you want to go to a different pre-university course, you can take the exams.

Centre to make class X examination optional

...
Noting that students and their parents are spending sleepless night at the time of board examination, Mr. Sibal said the government wants to make class X exam optional for students wishing to continue in the same school.

"If a student is wanting to go for pre-university course, he may appear for class X board exam. But in case of a student pursuing the course in the same school, he need not appear in the class-10 exam for promotion to class-11," he said, adding that an internal assessment would suffice.
...

Another view in ToI...

Why dumping Class X exams doesn't make sense

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 25 Jun 2009 22:55

The only problem with 10th board exams is that rather than a simple pass or fail, people tend to attach a lot of importance to it(The number of marks scored are used by every one, at one point of time even Infosys/ TCS/ Wipro used it to gauge the performance of the candidate, these companies were looking for candidates who had 70% throughout their academic life 10th +2, then engineering)
We in AP have to take a state exam even for 7th class(i am not sure if its still there, but during 90's a mere pass was enough).
In US, standardized exams(tough they are not similar to our board exams) are used from class 4-5 th onwards. Without these exams one cannot gauge the performance of the students.
May be we could use some other system where in people who are interested in commerce/history/sciences can choose the subjects that they wish to be evaluated in the board exams at 10th.
As a student i felt it was utter waste of my time to remember all the dates ,times in history lessons and around 50 poems in Telugu along with the grammar associated with each poem in my 10th grade. I would have been far happier if the math & science part of the syllabus was increased in complexity for students who wish to go through Math and Science Stream.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 25 Jun 2009 22:58

RaviBg wrote:Class X exams aren't abolished for everyone. If you are in the same school and want to continue to 11th std in same school, then there is no need to take the board exam according to the minister. If you want to go to a different pre-university course, you can take the exams.

Oh, so it's just window dressing then. The class X exams have no importance for those continuing in the same school anyways as all passing candidates are assured of entry to Class XI.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 25 Jun 2009 23:02

vera_k wrote:
RaviBg wrote:Class X exams aren't abolished for everyone. If you are in the same school and want to continue to 11th std in same school, then there is no need to take the board exam according to the minister. If you want to go to a different pre-university course, you can take the exams.
Oh, so it's just window dressing then. The class X exams have no importance for those continuing in the same school anyways as all passing candidates are assured of entry to Class XI.

what about SSC schools??? BTW if this system would be implemented, would it be implemented only in CBSC/ICSC schools or allover INDIA??

P.S: What about Students who want to shift from CBSC / ICSC stream to SSC stream in 11th grade (Atleast in AP I have seen lots of students do it as the standard for math and science in 11, 12th grades in AP is higher than CBSC/ ICSC )

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 25 Jun 2009 23:11

rajsunder wrote: what about SSC schools??? BTW if this system would be implemented, would it be implemented only in CBSC/ICSC schools or allover INDIA??

Well, many SSC schools have XI and XII grades in the same campus today. If this was made compulsory, this move will further increase the importance of the school and serve to increase pressure on KG/primary admissions because the option that parents have today of letting kids study in a not-so-good school until 10th while transferring to a better college in XIth will not be allowed. However if the move is optional, then nothing much changes from the way things operate today.

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Jun 2009 23:14

rajsunder wrote:The only problem with 10th board exams is that rather than a simple pass or fail, people tend to attach a lot of importance to it

This is due to the sheer competition and the way parents pursue the exams as a benchmark for their own H&D ; nothing wrong with the exam itself.

(The number of marks scored are used by every one, at one point of time even Infosys/ TCS/ Wipro used it to gauge the performance of the candidate, these companies were looking for candidates who had 70% throughout their academic life 10th +2, then engineering)

And whats wrong with that US grad and B schools too take into account the GPA during graduation; in India's case the ratio of applicants to the vacancies is so high that the filter criteria has to be made more stringent and at the same time the selection process itself has a cost associated with it in terms of time and money so academic performance since school is a
pretty decent benchmark.

May be we could use some other system where in people who are interested in commerce/history/sciences can choose the subjects that they wish to be evaluated in the board exams at 10th.

Xth std is meant to be a exhaustive course to strengthen the fundamentals it cannot be made a specialized course for the simple reason that at that age a student does not know what stream actually he/she wishes to pursue going forward.

As a student i felt it was utter waste of my time to remember all the dates ,times in history lessons and around 50 poems in Telugu along with the grammar associated with each poem in my 10th grade. I would have been far happier if the math & science part of the syllabus was increased in complexity for students who wish to go through Math and Science Stream.

Again that is like doing a post mortem of the events I am sure the ones who have appeared for the civil services will only be thankful to the same education system as even the IIT passouts take up social science subjects for the IAS exams.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 26 Jun 2009 00:05

Well if we leave apart the knowledge gained and whether it is useful or not, and focus on how class X exams enhances/develops the ability in a kid to perform under pressure we all can see its benefits. An analogy would be that of net practice to match practice. Amount of time spent in nets only helps to a certain extent, in developing the abilities but it doesnt condition the mind to perform under pressure, which IMO is very vital for an individual to succeed. This conditioning of mind is provided only through match practice. Generally, boys/girls tend to take class x exams when they are 15 or 16 and this is the age when they need to learn how to handle pressure and class X exams definitely help them in handling it. Those who are successful know how to handle it and become better individuals

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 26 Jun 2009 00:07

Well if we leave apart the knowledge gained and whether it is useful or not, and focus on how class X exams enhances/develops the ability in a kid to perform under pressure we all can see its benefits. An analogy would be that of net practice to match practice. Amount of time spent in nets only helps to a certain extent, in developing the abilities but it doesnt condition the mind to perform under pressure, which IMO is very vital for an individual to succeed. This conditioning of mind is provided only through match practice. Generally, boys/girls tend to take class x exams when they are 15 or 16 and this is the age when they need to learn how to handle pressure and class X exams definitely help them in handling it. Those who are successful know how to handle it and become better individuals

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 26 Jun 2009 05:31

shiv wrote: Class X exams, based on a 130 year old British system is pure torture for kids. You would not wish it on your kid, and having two children of mine go through the system - I am really happy at this enlightenment in India. The class X exams are as necessary as a hole in the head.

If you have not seen the way India and schools have gone here in India in the last 20 to 25 years you will not know what kind of mess India has got itself into with its idiotic standards and colonial British style education.

Shivji, this is an excellent point. There are many things that India has blindly adapted and continues to adhere vehmently (the zeal of neo-convert is to be holier than the ..) many practices that are not necessarily in the interest of India. It is as if, India is jealously guarding a system that would make it easier for any colonizing entity to easily take over and administer without any trouble.

In this instance, the competitiveness at 10th level is elimination process, which suits a colonizer, if one is interested in not development, but in weeding out human resources. Cause for burnouts, fetishness to worship single acheivements in few exams and institutions, without understanding learning process is life long and the opportunities have to be created at every stage.

Another vestige, for example, the role of Governors in India, is extremely questionable and acts as an agent of the center. Where is the true autonomy for the states? It is as if, baby sitters are needed from center, while treating the leadership in states as not adults.

For all ceremonial matters that governors usually indulge in, others from executive branch can perform them without maintaining the mammoth white elephants.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jun 2009 07:31

suryag wrote:Well if we leave apart the knowledge gained and whether it is useful or not, and focus on how class X exams enhances/develops the ability in a kid to perform under pressure we all can see its benefits. An analogy would be that of net practice to match practice. Amount of time spent in nets only helps to a certain extent, in developing the abilities but it doesnt condition the mind to perform under pressure, which IMO is very vital for an individual to succeed. This conditioning of mind is provided only through match practice. Generally, boys/girls tend to take class x exams when they are 15 or 16 and this is the age when they need to learn how to handle pressure and class X exams definitely help them in handling it. Those who are successful know how to handle it and become better individuals

Suryag - I have heard this argument from my own kids and their peers. With due respect to the opinions of young people I would like to point out that my own kids and those of my peers they (the kids) do not know how much cushioning I (as a parent) have given them so that they could perform well in class X and then claim that they were "tough and competitive". Bright kids who do not get this cushioning will fall behind in this system. By "cushioning" I mean (apart from a stable home environment) value addition such as 24 hour power supply (from an uninterrupted power supply system at home) so studies do not get disrupted. Father/mother with scooter/car/driver to ensure that kids gets to go to special classes if needed, financial clout to ensure purchase of guides/additional books etc, computer, printer and internet access for school projects. It does not matter if you were personally clever enough to manage without all this - the point is that these factors add a bias to this 'competitiveness". Kids who get all this perform better than thousands who don't.

Class X exams do not teach you what to do if you do not get into IIT or REC or the top medical colleges 2 years later. And 99% of kids who slog for class 10 do not get it. It is (IMO) absolutely pathetic to see kids at the age of 15 being classified (after Class X) as "Engineering stream - Physics, Chemistry, Maths", "Medicine stream - Physics chemistry biology" "Commerce stream- English, Economics, Accountancy". The system recognises only 3 ways of making a living. In 2009 this is no better than my parents telling me that I should become and engineer or a doctor at age 15. Friggin heck - India needs to wake up. I certainly know much more about ways of making a living and Engineering and Medicine (that I took) are not the be all and end all of life.

I recall the sense of triumph I has getting into two of India's top medical colleges (they are both still on the top 10 list today), having to choose one and imagining that I was god's gift to intelligence. But life taught me that all those school friends of mine who did not get in and who did not do engineering or medicine are doing very well in life - with many of them being in a position to buy me or employ me. Class X exams mean nothing. They are a needless imposition on kids.

Only 10-15% of kids passing Class X go on to pass Class XII. We create an underclass of kids who we dub as "uncompetitive". This is the Indian education system for you.

And the variety of systems we have CBSE, ICSE, SSC, SSLC etx - all follow the 10 plus 2 routine. If you need a "plus 2" after then why the hell is there a X? I mean if you need one dozen eggs - do you ask for 10+2 eggs? Why not just have 12 in one go? Have a better assessment system for passing out of schools which is inclusive. My caddy's son and my maidservant's son should not have to drop out of school just because I have the financial and intellectual clout to push my kids right through college. That only perpetuates our class system.

"Competition" as Class X level is a discussion for the "Elites/non elites" thread in the hijab forum. I will write more there - time permitting.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Jun 2009 08:04

^ Shiv saar you have quoted an extreme case to support your pov ; the question is not whether Xth class exams are credible and only benchmark for a child's career choice ; the discussion is about the very need for having Xth board exam .

Also you have been very idealistic and probably a bit unfair while coming up with the 'cushioning' factor , ofcourse the standard of living has improved since the 70's or even 80's however thee amenities (lets leave car and driver out) today are pretty common and affordable for any state or central Govt employee (my definition for middle class ).

PS: Let us not include kids from extremely poor families or those who go to school as its free or just because they get free lunch ; this particular strata has more important and immediate challenges to address than the Xth class board exams (hunger,poverty or even illness)

Class X exams do not teach you what to do if you do not get into IIT or REC or the top medical colleges 2 years later. And 99% of kids who slog for class 10 do not get it. It is (IMO) absolutely pathetic to see kids at the age of 15 being classified (after Class X) as "Engineering stream - Physics, Chemistry, Maths", "Medicine stream - Physics chemistry biology" "Commerce stream- English, Economics, Accountancy".

And neither does IIT teaches how to become a good engineer nor does MBBS guarantee that the individual would be a good doctor we can keep arguing on this line until eternity .

Xth class curricula is not a vocational/professional course which will make the student employable , it comprises of an exhaustive syllabus for imparting knowledge in science,maths,social sciences and arts . The purpose of the exams is to simply gauge a student's performance .

Problem is we cannot view and criticize the Xth class syllabus in isolation for the simple reason that if students are not classified into science,commerce and humanities after Xth then it will be impossible to cover the specialized subjects (Physics,Chem,Bio.Accounts,Literature,History etc) in as much detail as today in 2 years (11th and 12th ) and then obviously we are talking about covering these during Bsc/Btech/MBBS/BA or B.Com .

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 26 Jun 2009 08:09

Class X is a needless distraction in a world where students are moving to Kota in Std VII to study for the IITJEE.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jun 2009 08:51

negi wrote:^ Shiv saar you have quoted an extreme case to support your pov ; the question is not whether Xth class exams are credible and only benchmark for a child's career choice ; the discussion is about the very need for having Xth board exam .

Also you have been very idealistic and probably a bit unfair while coming up with the 'cushioning' factor , ofcourse the standard of living has improved since the 70's or even 80's however thee amenities (lets leave car and driver out) today are pretty common and affordable for any state or central Govt employee (my definition for middle class ).

PS: Let us not include kids from extremely poor families or those who go to school as its free or just because they get free lunch ; this particular strata has more important and immediate challenges to address than the Xth class board exams (hunger,poverty or even illness)

This attitude (in bold) is exactly what is wrong with the Indian education system. I do not mean to get personal but I must point out that you are dismissing in one go 75% of Indian children. I do believe you have a skewed picture of India's real demographic statistics. I really do not think it is worth discussing a class X exam that caters to only 25% Indian kids while the rest are in a different caste/category.

And neither does IIT teaches how to become a good engineer nor does MBBS guarantee that the individual would be a good doctor we can keep arguing on this line until eternity .

Correct, and hence my reply to the following quote, which is a strawman even by the argument you have endorsed. Do you disagree?

... class X exams enhances/develops the ability in a kid to perform under pressure we all can see its benefits. An analogy would be that of net practice to match practice. Amount of time spent in nets only helps to a certain extent, in developing the abilities but it doesn't condition the mind to perform under pressure, which IMO is very vital for an individual to succeed.

negi wrote: Xth class curricula is not a vocational/professional course which will make the student employable , it comprises of an exhaustive syllabus for imparting knowledge in science,maths,social sciences and arts . The purpose of the exams is to simply gauge a student's performance .

Exactly! Spot on. It is not a test of intelligence or knowledge. It is a test of a student's performance at one point in time in a faulty assesment system of learning by rote. And that test is given more importance that it should have. More time and effort is spent on this pointless exercise in a way that leads to the suicide of 5000 kids a year on average.

Problem is we cannot view and criticize the Xth class syllabus in isolation for the simple reason that if students are not classified into science,commerce and humanities after Xth then it will be impossible to cover the specialized subjects (Physics,Chem,Bio.Accounts,Literature,History etc) in as much detail as today in 2 years (11th and 12th ) and then obviously we are talking about covering these during Bsc/Btech/MBBS/BA or B.Com .

Negi-ji, the absolute amount of knowledge that children have to absorb by class X has increased in 40 years. i studied Physics, Chemistry, maths and biology in school and I studied them again (twice) to help my kids. Even now I am sitting in front of my computer with several Maths books at arm's reach - all of which I used to reeducate myself in Trigonometry and Calculus to help my kids do well in Class X, XI and XII. I have a very clear picture of what is being demanded of kids now. We are not doing our kids a favor by doing what is being done.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 26 Jun 2009 09:32

It maybe a good idea to make adults of children at an early age - coping with pressure and seeing 'real' life.

However, all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

An overall personality is more important than a brilliant regurgitrator.

One wonders why parents who can afford want to send their wards to Doon, La Masrtiniere, Mayo, Welhams, St Columba, Loreto and other public schools and 'convents', when they can send their children to 'normal' schools.

And why do people feel that those from public school have advantage in getting jobs and in life than those not from public schools.

Could it be because there is an emphasis in these school to build an overall personality where not only they know how to conduct themselves impressively as also play games and indulge in extra curricular activiities, apart from being educated?

Does our education promote analysis, imagination, curiosity, application? It is mostly knowlege and memory based and that hardly ecourages being industrious and innovative.

Therefore, the mind should be allowed to grow and if unnecessary pressure is all that is the goal of Indian education, then the mind shall have immense data storage capacity with hardly any capablity towards application.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jun 2009 09:49

RayC wrote:Does our education promote analysis, imagination, curiosity, application?.

NO

I wish I could get a bigger font than that.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 26 Jun 2009 10:25

I thought I would nt wade into this territory of bitching and moaning, but then common sense is the territory of the smart, and I am no smartie-pants....

Indian education system is rote, true in a vaguely broad sense. It does not afford the students to be creative and logical, bullshit. One needs two hands to clap, if the students dont give a rat's behind at being creative, they will always whine and moan about how things are stacked up against them. I will tell you a tale from the other side: Getting a decent degree in a decent university --- things are stacked up, getting godfathers and godmothers to support your case --- stacked up, getting a tenure track position anywhere, anytime, anyhow --- stacked up, getting good students --- stacked up, getting your first grant --- stacked up, getting tenure --- stacked up, climbing the ladder in your field --- stacked up, getting to be an influential person who can peddle his wards into esteemed areas --- stacked up, earning respect ---- stacked up, being the man/woman with THE vision ---- STACKED UP..... Any task you set forth, odds are that things are stacked up against you. Analysis, logic, reasoning, curiosity etc. are rekindled and stifled time and again. To me its all relative: I am reviewing papers written by folks that give the impression that folks have substituted a rat's backside for their brains, instead of giving me the impression that they have been educated in some of the most esteemed universities, advised by some of the biggest minds the world (forget Yindia) could boast of.... At the end of the day, every person climbs to his level of mediocrity, is nt that what Shri Darwin said?!

If passing 10th standard is a tall effort, then may be the problem lies with the students or the teachers or the system. If its the students, nothing can cure the mess. If its the teachers who dont give a rat's behind at doing their job, GoI instead of fixing that mess is washing its hands off and saying we will fix something we can fix in lieu of fixing the right thing. If the reason is the fact that grading is arbitrary, making it more transparent is the fix, and again GoI is washing its hands off by going after the wrong idiot. This is de javu all over again.... The GoI cant make social equality a possibility because they lose the votebanks if everyone is happy, so they create more mess by bringing in quotas and what not. Instead of ensuring that all students in India can hope for a decent primary education which would set the budget on a deficit spiral (?), the GoI is taking another shortcut, making exams irrelevant ---- just like our borders are irrelevant, ah the same terminology, the same diarrhea....

Cmon, humor me.... Is passing 10th standard exam that big a deal? Is that 33/100 for a pass or 40/100 for a pass? Of course, I will take the blame that I am creme de la creme. But then so are all of you, Anglais-speakers domiciled in India and elsewhere. cmon tell me whats hard in passing 10th and 12th standard exams with the bare minimum marks that GoI has to make exams irrelevant at the 10th standard level today, and 12th tomorrow?

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 26 Jun 2009 10:27

>>>What we need is education, not exams. In India we have exams without education.

How true!! You have explained the true state of affairs in those two sentences.

Take the case of my son who is in 12th std now.

His school re-opened on June 3 (after one month of 'advance' classes of 12th in the month of April and May was holidays 'cause there is a Govt rule not to conduct classes if the school doesn't have Air Conditioners).

At the end of April he had undergone one set of class tests before vacation. From June 3 onwards till today, he has under gone one set of class tests, one set of mid-term exams, one set of exams in his coaching class and another set of (coaching class) exams are scheduled for tomorrow. I feel pity for the boy and had even suggested to discontinue his coaching class. I see no other reason than peer pressure for his reluctance to discontinue. Otherwise he is engaged 5 days a week in school, with possible 'special class' on Saturday. Saturday evening and Sunday full day he has to attend his coaching Classes. He has no time for anything else, except for 3 days Tennis (one hr each) enforced by me.

Folks, let me confess - I am not a willing collaborator in this madness. My son says he has no choice but to struggle. I am upset with the school for conducting exams after every page of the textbook that they teach in the Class.

I am also upset with the way All India entrance examinations are conducted - Though they say the questions are based on CBSE syllabus, they cover much wider syllabus. The way they ask questions is beyond the comprehension of even very intelligent / knowledgeable students.

My only hope and pray is that at the end of all these torture, my son doesn't turn out to be a vegetable. In fact I am spending most of my time to ensure that the confidence level of the boy doesn't take a downhill journey.

People may ask how then we capture the best of the best? Honestly, I feel they are not capturing the best of best by conducting entrance exams in the way they do it now. Why can't we have JUST ONE ENTRANCE EXAM at an all India level Like the GRE / GMAT and use the score for all admissions?

There are numerous professional colleges in India. But those which offer quality education are very few and far apart. The attitude of the teachers have to change. They should not be cruel to the students, particularly in the lower classes. IMO that is why many of the Indian kids are not confident enough to face the world as such.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 26 Jun 2009 10:28

Gents,

Kapil Sibal's proposition to do away with the class 10 exams come with caveat too. That is it can be avoided only if the student continues in the same school for his 11th and 12th (Plus 2) as well. In very many states there is a Pre-Degree, Pre-University course done in colleges. In that case the students will have to write the exam. Do schools have exactly the same number of seats for its 10th standard, and 11th standard?

Another proposition which I have some distrust is the plan to just introduce on single board for secondary education at the national level. States will not have their own educational boards. This I feel can be grossly misused. The students of the entire nation will have to learn in a way the ruling central government decides. Regional aspects like language, history, culture and traditions all can be over-looked by this central board. Better than this, it would be nice to follow the Prof. Yeshpal Committee recommendations. His recommendation was that there could be a body which would decide on a broad basis what should be taught at each class (I mean at class 3, a student should know basic, maths, english and the local language etc.). The state boards takes this as a baseline and improvise on it.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 26 Jun 2009 10:31

>>>What we need is education, not exams. In India we have exams without education.

How true!! You have explained the true state of affairs in those two sentences.

Take the case of my son who is in 12th std now.

His school re-opened on June 3 (after one month of 'advance' classes of 12th in the month of April and May was holidays 'cause there is a Govt rule not to conduct classes if the school doesn't have Air Conditioners).

At the end of April he had undergone one set of class tests before vacation. From June 3 onwards till today, he has under gone one set of class tests, one set of mid-term exams, one set of exams in his coaching class and another set of (coaching class) exams are scheduled for tomorrow. I feel pity for the boy and had even suggested to discontinue his coaching class. I see no other reason than peer pressure for his reluctance to discontinue. Otherwise he is engaged 5 days a week in school, with possible 'special class' on Saturday. Saturday evening and Sunday full day he has to attend his coaching Classes. He has no time for anything else, except for 3 days Tennis (one hr each) enforced by me.

Folks, let me confess - I am not a willing collaborator in this madness. My son says he has no choice but to struggle. I am upset with the school for conducting exams after every page of the textbook that they teach in the Class.

I am also upset with the way All India entrance examinations are conducted - Though they say the questions are based on CBSE syllabus, they cover much wider syllabus. The way they ask questions is beyond the comprehension of even very intelligent / knowledgeable students.

My only hope and pray is that at the end of all these torture, my son doesn't turn out to be a vegetable. In fact I am spending most of my time to ensure that the confidence level of the boy doesn't take a downhill journey.

People may ask how then we capture the best of the best? Honestly, I feel they are not capturing the best of best by conducting entrance exams in the way they do it now. Why can't we have JUST ONE ENTRANCE EXAM at an all India level Like the GRE / GMAT and use the score for all admissions?

There are numerous professional colleges in India. But those which offer quality education are very few and far apart. The attitude of the teachers have to change. They should not be cruel to the students, particularly in the lower classes. IMO that is why many of the Indian kids are not confident enough to face the world as such.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jun 2009 10:44

Stan_Savljevic wrote:
Cmon, humor me.... Is passing 10th standard exam that big a deal? Is that 33/100 for a pass or 40/100 for a pass? Of course, I will take the blame that I am creme de la creme. But then so are all of you, Anglais-speakers domiciled in India and elsewhere. cmon tell me whats hard in passing 10th and 12th standard exams with the bare minimum marks that GoI has to make exams irrelevant at the 10th standard level today, and 12th tomorrow?

And you know Stan, in 2009, the SSLC state syllabus in Karnataka (widely accepted as a far lower standard than CBSE) failed 30% of kids. The same state syllabus in Class X11 (2009) failed 54% of kids.

You have an exam system that requires only 33% for a pass and only 70% pass that exam.

That only means that one third of our of kids cannot score even 33%. And of the kids who pass - many score less than 50%

What does this say about our education system?

If you have money, english and clout, none of this matters - as discussed in the corruption thread in the hijab forum. This system suits me fine as a card carrying member of the elite But it is by no means a fair system or a good system

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jun 2009 10:50

geeth wrote: My only hope and pray is that at the end of all these torture, my son doesn't turn out to be a vegetable. In fact I am spending most of my time to ensure that the confidence level of the boy doesn't take a downhill journey.

No Geeth he will not. Wish him luck from me and show him my message if you like. I always told my kids that they must experience failure in exams to know about life, not success. But they need to do their duty and bust butt, and not ask for specific rewards. All will be well in the end regardless of India's idiotic and unnecessary system.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 26 Jun 2009 11:01

shiv wrote: And you know Stan, in 2009, the SSLC state syllabus in Karnataka (widely accepted as a far lower standard than CBSE) failed 30% of kids. The same state syllabus in Class X11 (2009) failed 54% of kids. You have an exam system that requires only 33% for a pass and only 70% pass that exam.

Is that surprising to you? In the guise of free and compulsory primary education, state governments have been passing kids up to 8th standard with the barest of credentials, with hardly an exam that tests the students rote-learning skill or logical skill. I know this to be true in most middle-schools in Madras. And to top that, the mid-day meal is the biggest scam around, the quality of food is so random....
PS: Where did you think TN got its shining numbers vis-a-vis human development index from?!

And GoI is sending the message to the state govts. that this charade can continue till 10th, it takes no genius to see the state of future citizens of Yindia. As I said, GoI is not fixing the causes of the giant headache, but is being a troll-agent that mismanages our futures.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 26 Jun 2009 11:02

Sachin wrote: States will not have their own educational boards. This I feel can be grossly misused.

The Hindootva fanatic in me was drooling over this. Why are you letting the cat out of the bag

?