Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 27 Jun 2009 05:22

PIA offers much better services and in no way should be compared with IA (eye-yeh)/AI (ai-yoh). You can check in your suicide jackets and it will be safely delivered at your destination. You can also ask for special one-way fares. If you are a Taliban or Al-Qaeda member, you get 10,000 bonus miles when you sign up for their frequent flyer program. Your miles can be freely transferred to any of your four wives or 25 children upon your expiry.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 27 Jun 2009 06:15

chetak wrote:Looks like paki international airlines is in no better shape!

' Too many pilots'

The Pakistanis will be willing to donate / lend pilots to other airlines.
Problem is - who will hire them?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 27 Jun 2009 07:37

Guys after JRD was replaced as chairman of AI, why has the quality gone from good to bad. Is it that the govt failed to find competent individual or is it because of other reasons.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 27 Jun 2009 09:17

suryag wrote:Guys after JRD was replaced as chairman of AI, why has the quality gone from good to bad. Is it that the govt failed to find competent individual or is it because of other reasons.

Coz he is a cost cruncher...it doesnt go down too well with the pampered staff which have sucked our money like leeches for decades.

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Jun 2009 09:23

Guys after JRD was replaced as chairman of AI, why has the quality gone from good to bad. Is it that the govt failed to find competent individual or is it because of other reasons

What can any individual do, however talented, if the govt is/was determined to turn the airline into a cess pool and run it into the ground. Govt in business is like a sewer, that just makes everything it touches into well sewage!.

Point is, if the Govt decided it needed to "have commanding heights", why didnt it actually go and build a competing airline to Air India from scratch (with no special favors, same regulatory env as Air India), but go about stealing Air India for a song?. There was ideology at work here. There was "socliasm" ie doling out jobs and special favors and catering to interest groups at work for 40 years or so, net result is what you see here.

And now the govt keeps insisiting it is India's "jewel" and wants to pump more money after bad.

I have lost track of the number of times Air India has been given "last chances" . During Rajiv Gandhi's time ,there was one young chap who was hired to turn it around from a biscuit company or something, then during Narasimha Rao's time Rusi Mody's name was floated around, and why just last year and half or so Praful Patel himself threatened the airline to pull up its socks or it will be let go. Air India is like an arthritic knee that keeps acting up with annoying regularity and demands more public money to keep them sucking blood. I think it finally has come to a question of what ever for? . Will anyone of the tax payers miss Air India if it goes belly up ?. Excepte fot he thieving politocs, there will be hoots of joy all around.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 27 Jun 2009 14:24

Even if one were to make out a case for 'national jewel' whatever that is, a clear distinction should be made between AI and its battalions of ruthless parasites that are plundering it and bleeding it dry. Remember the days when it had monopoly and before every peak season a strike would be announced for more loot? The aviation minister would crawl on all fours and beg them to work after paying ransom.

I think anyone that worked for AI/IA during monopoly days should have their PF balances seized and asked to refund the plunder. Needless to say they should be summarily sacked first. The remaining should have their monthly loot /plunder brought down to sane levels, not at SIA kind of salaries in a third world country. Clear limit should be imposed on staff travel with strict blackout, only econ class except for very senior folks etc. They should be given a year to improve public image.

Furthermore, this is a good chance for Congress to ensure no AI/IA parasite ever shows the red flag. Any hint of red in any of the union teams should result in the whole bunch being denied lifeline. They should be told clearly, either they can reform and be patriotic or align with mass murderers and traitors and pay the price.

Now the parasites are saying AI should not have acquired any plane, because that is causing all the problems. Earlier they were saying all would be fine once new planes come and they are able to fly more. This is exactly what I posted almost year or more ago. That once interest cost on new planes are factored in, AI which was flogging old horses much like IR, would start bleeding. That giving a nice garland to monkey is not a smart move.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Jun 2009 00:14

Kingfisher plane wing hits wall, escapes major disaster

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Jun 2009 01:28

Air India joins club seeking Govt support

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Jun 2009 01:42

vina wrote:
Guys after JRD was replaced as chairman of AI, why has the quality gone from good to bad. Is it that the govt failed to find competent individual or is it because of other reasons

And now the govt keeps insisiting it is India's "jewel" and wants to pump more money after bad.

More like "family jewels" that you have to constantly scratch because they itch so fiercely

leeches!

chilarai · Post by **chilarai** » 29 Jun 2009 08:17

Not sure where to post
Chinese airlines planning standing tickets

http://www.cctv.com/program/bizchina/20 ... 8082.shtml

girish.r · Post by **girish.r** » 29 Jun 2009 13:57

vina wrote:
Guys after JRD was replaced as chairman of AI, why has the quality gone from good to bad. Is it that the govt failed to find competent individual or is it because of other reasons

What can any individual do, however talented, if the govt is/was determined to turn the airline into a cess pool and run it into the ground. Govt in business is like a sewer, that just makes everything it touches into well sewage!.

Point is, if the Govt decided it needed to "have commanding heights", why didnt it actually go and build a competing airline to Air India from scratch (with no special favors, same regulatory env as Air India), but go about stealing Air India for a song?. There was ideology at work here. There was "socliasm" ie doling out jobs and special favors and catering to interest groups at work for 40 years or so, net result is what you see here.

And now the govt keeps insisiting it is India's "jewel" and wants to pump more money after bad.

I have lost track of the number of times Air India has been given "last chances" . During Rajiv Gandhi's time ,there was one young chap who was hired to turn it around from a biscuit company or something, then during Narasimha Rao's time Rusi Mody's name was floated around, and why just last year and half or so Praful Patel himself threatened the airline to pull up its socks or it will be let go. Air India is like an arthritic knee that keeps acting up with annoying regularity and demands more public money to keep them sucking blood. I think it finally has come to a question of what ever for? . Will anyone of the tax payers miss Air India if it goes belly up ?. Excepte fot he thieving politocs, there will be hoots of joy all around.

Very well put up! Just hope AI adapts itself to the changing Aviation dynamics. I dont think the babus are letting go off this white elephant any time soon.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Jun 2009 14:12

girish.r wrote:
vina wrote: Guys after JRD was replaced as chairman of AI, why has the quality gone from good to bad. Is it that the govt failed to find competent individual or is it because of other reasons

What can any individual do, however talented, if the govt is/was determined to turn the airline into a cess pool and run it into the ground. Govt in business is like a sewer, that just makes everything it touches into well sewage!.

Point is, if the Govt decided it needed to "have commanding heights", why didnt it actually go and build a competing airline to Air India from scratch (with no special favors, same regulatory env as Air India), but go about stealing Air India for a song?. There was ideology at work here. There was "socliasm" ie doling out jobs and special favors and catering to interest groups at work for 40 years or so, net result is what you see here.

And now the govt keeps insisiting it is India's "jewel" and wants to pump more money after bad.

I have lost track of the number of times Air India has been given "last chances" . During Rajiv Gandhi's time ,there was one young chap who was hired to turn it around from a biscuit company or something, then during Narasimha Rao's time Rusi Mody's name was floated around, and why just last year and half or so Praful Patel himself threatened the airline to pull up its socks or it will be let go. Air India is like an arthritic knee that keeps acting up with annoying regularity and demands more public money to keep them sucking blood. I think it finally has come to a question of what ever for? . Will anyone of the tax payers miss Air India if it goes belly up ?. Excepte fot he thieving politocs, there will be hoots of joy all around. /quote

Very well put up! Just hope AI adapts itself to the changing Aviation dynamics. I dont think the babus are letting go off this white elephant any time soon.

Its not a white elephant for the babus and the politicos.

Many a hotel, transport, travel and food bills of the powers that be are picked up on the sly by AI and IA.This is nothing but merciless rape and plunder of public resources using dexterous accounting methods.

Its a milch and cash cow to be suckled and pillaged at will.

This is why the employees are so pampered. They feed off the crumbs from the high table.

Sab milke, bantke ke kha rahe hain

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 30 Jun 2009 01:43

AI pays pilots, engineers illegal wages

Air India wants a bailout of up to Rs 15,000 crore from the government, but for three years it has paid some employees wages to which they were never entitled.

These wages were in the form of an incentive scheme and were often several times the basic salary. They were paid without government clearance and contributed to its worsening finances
...
“The productivity-linked incentive scheme of Air India has not been approved by its board or by the government,” SK Chhikara, undersecretary in the ministry of civil aviation, had written to the airline in end-2008.

HT is in possession of documents that show that the airline ignored government directions asking it to stop these payments.
...

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 03 Jul 2009 21:37

Air India employees 'walk-out' for two hrs

Yup, passengers be damned. And why should aam public sympathize with such ppl?

AI taking steps to deal with employees agitation at airports

Theek hai. i'll believe it when i see it.

AI warns of cut in wages if walkout happens

wow. miracles do happen or what? again, pudding's proof is in the eating onlee.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 04 Jul 2009 18:13

I think GOI should take the parasites 'advise' and return / sell as new planes acquired or leased. Then AI will die a natural death once old planes become obsolete in a few years.

How the GOI deals with this bunch of looters and plunderers will send a strong signal to other parasites like in BSNL, SBI who are being instigated into creating chaos by anti-national forces. If workers can show that they have turned their backs on the traitors and their agendas, GOI can throw some kind of lifeline with strict conditions attached.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Jul 2009 18:17

dunno about finances of SBI or BSNL, both work well for me as far as services are concerned, especially the later !

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 04 Jul 2009 19:47

Whats wrong with SBI?

http://in.biz.yahoo.com/090124/203/6zcy0.html

Thats a lot of profit... They are no monopoly now. I dont think parasite is the word to use with SBI... certainly not in the same breath as the original parasite AI/IA

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 04 Jul 2009 19:53

You don't have to make a loss to be a parasite. Anyways, becomes too OT to reply on these posts..let us forget SBI/BSNL and stay focused on AI/IA. I had mentioned it in the context of SBI associate employees declaring intention to strike because of merger of their banks with SBI which should not anyway affect their 'privileges'. These very same parasites were earlier calling for merger of all state owned banks years ago when there were no private banks because then they could do away with whatever little service they were providing to hapless customers.

BSNL too would end up with begging bowl, each year its profits are down, and the dole from private players in the name of 'rural connectivity' is also slowly being taken away which was bulk of their profits. It is a matter of time. Then the parasites would demand special treatment as a national jewel, same as AI/IA.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 09 Jul 2009 17:34

Heartbreaking news...

No disinvestment of Air India, AAI: Praful Patel

The government on Thursday ruled out disinvestment of Air India (AI) and Airports Authority of India (AAI).

"There is no proposal for disinvestment of AI and AAI," Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel told the Lok Sabha during Question Hour.

To a question whether the government was considering Initial Public Offer (IPO) for the national carrier, Patel said "Presently, there is no such proposal."

When members raised the issue of development fees being levied in privatised airports such as in Delhi and sought abolition of such fees, he said the government had already constituted the Airport Economic Regulatory Authority (AERA) entrusted with the responsibility of deciding on the issue.

Members pointed out that while it was the responsibility of private players to develop the airports, they were charging the passengers for the work.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 09 Jul 2009 17:58

Was just checking up the site Air Line Quality about Air India

. The issues reported by passengers (both Indian and other nationals), it was just plain and simple disgusting. Is'nt Air India our Flag Carrier Air Line?

Clicky

I think we should now do some kind of "Why I fly Air India?" kind of quiz to find out how and why people fly AI

.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 10 Jul 2009 03:40

Sachin wrote:Was just checking up the site Air Line Quality about Air India . The issues reported by passengers (both Indian and other nationals), it was just plain and simple disgusting. Is'nt Air India our Flag Carrier Air Line?

Clicky

I think we should now do some kind of "Why I fly Air India?" kind of quiz to find out how and why people fly AI .

I have flown AI several times, here is what goes on.

-The Ground staff treat you like a problem.
-The Aircrafts are old, dirty and sometimes with broken interior.
-The Airhostages are old grumpy aunties in their 50's.
-The food is actually good (not becuase I am an Indian, but it is actually good)
-You can expect more service from the average autodriver. The driver will smile, try to be as helpful as he can and you will feel valued. Flying AI is a bit like applying for an Visa. You feel unwanted and at mercy of the service provider.

Reasons to fly AI.
1 You can save some 10-15% compared to the better airlines.
2 You are getting a free ticket from the Indian Government.
3 I used to take the evening flight from heathrow, becasue I know I was virtually guarenteed 3 free seats, which I could get a good sleep in.

AI does not represent the quality of service, dedication or capability of Indians. The Airline is an embarassment and harms the image of India. That too at the cost of 2 million dollars per day in losses.

vina · Post by **vina** » 10 Jul 2009 09:09

The Airline is an embarassment and harms the image of India. That too at the cost of 2 million dollars per day in losses

Manmohan Singh claims that it is a jewel! . So go figure. Let them get the basics first like trying to have clean and usable toilets first. Once they get the janitorial part straight. No , it aint possible . Air India is a straight play out of the Aeroflot of old. Classic govt /marxist overlords, condescending to the peasants. If Aeroflot was earlier the "Rudest Airline" , I am sure Air India would take that title today and I would add titles like "Most Venal", "Most Apathetic" Airline as well.

kumarn · Post by **kumarn** » 10 Jul 2009 12:50

In fully loaded flight, Air India stuffed in 3 extra persons

Of these three, one woman passenger was accommodated in the cockpit and two others on the foldable seats where cabin crew sits during take off and landing

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 10 Jul 2009 12:59

Hmm, the overnight busses here sell "cabin seats" for people who desperately want a ride. Why not the planes? You should commend the ingenuety of the AI staff who gave the solution, rather than kicking those three out, making them wait at the gate without food or water for 8 hours till the next available flight.

Once I found that people sleeping in the tiny aisle of the bus, and there was absolutely no way to get out to take a leak. Some "less considerate" co-pax woke them up, so I didn't have to pee in the seat. That too can be tried in the planes.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Jul 2009 18:48

Dileep wrote:Hmm, the overnight busses here sell "cabin seats" for people who desperately want a ride. Why not the planes? You should commend the ingenuety of the AI staff who gave the solution, rather than kicking those three out, making them wait at the gate without food or water for 8 hours till the next available flight.

Once I found that people sleeping in the tiny aisle of the bus, and there was absolutely no way to get out to take a leak. Some "less considerate" co-pax woke them up, so I didn't have to pee in the seat. That too can be tried in the planes.

I have done this myself paying extra 50 Rs to sit and sleep on the engine in overnight bus in the 80s.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Jul 2009 19:03

kumarn wrote:In fully loaded flight, Air India stuffed in 3 extra persons

Of these three, one woman passenger was accommodated in the cockpit and two others on the foldable seats where cabin crew sits during take off and landing

those two were children according to TV.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jul 2009 19:40

media is making mountain out of molehill.

- a woman (not a orange dyed bearded type) was asked to sit in cockpit
- her two kids were given the crew jump seats (i.e. not running around
in the cockpit pressing buttons

)

quite a logical seating arrangement if I may say so.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 10 Jul 2009 20:15

Singha wrote:media is making mountain out of molehill.

- a woman (not a orange dyed bearded type) was asked to sit in cockpit
- her two kids were given the crew jump seats (i.e. not running around
in the cockpit pressing buttons )

quite a logical seating arrangement if I may say so.

The cockpit has an armoured door.

The jump seat is meant for a check pilot or a DGCA examiner.

This is just a case of public sector arrogance.

They have very carefully and obviously not mentioned who the woman and children were. This is definitely a can of worms.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 11 Jul 2009 08:41

IIRC, pre-9/11, nonrev passengers (ie airline staff, relatives etc who hold coupons that could be used if seats are available) are known to use the jumpseats. The pilot also had authority to let any passenger to occupy it. Celebrities used to be invited there.

When C. M Ibrahim was mantri, he was sitting there when a near miss happened. He "ordered" the pilot to dive, and that became a small controversy.

Not sure about post-9/11

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jul 2009 11:16

indeed. rules are only meant for the weak i.e. us.

for the powerful, they bend and write their own rules.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 11 Jul 2009 16:07

Hmm, the overnight busses here sell "cabin seats" for people who desperately want a ride. Why not the planes? You should commend the ingenuety of the AI staff who gave the solution, rather than kicking those three out, making them wait at the gate without food or water for 8 hours till the next available flight.

Well, those days are not far off.

Chinese airline may offer cheaper fares to passengers who stand
The proposal would allow the airline to cram 40% more travelers into its planes while cutting operating costs 20%. Passengers would be strapped to a bar-stool-like stand during takeoff and landing.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-b ... ?track=rss

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 12 Jul 2009 03:07

Extra fliers on board?

a plane flying from Patna to Delhi had an extra passenger ‘adjusted’ in the toilet

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 12 Jul 2009 05:45

vera_k wrote:Extra fliers on board?

a plane flying from Patna to Delhi had an extra passenger ‘adjusted’ in the toilet

notice how clever the article writer is. For every other incident they gave the name of company, conspiciously missing on this.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 12 Jul 2009 20:38

Dileep wrote:Hmm, the overnight busses here sell "cabin seats" for people who desperately want a ride.

In a story I have heard they even duped two foreign passengers by giving them "cabin accomodation"

. The foreign travellers believed that they are going to get some kind of reserved seats with some privacy etc. Only at the time of boarding did they realise what the the Cabin accomodation actually meant

.

IIRC, pre-9/11, nonrev passengers (ie airline staff, relatives etc who hold coupons that could be used if seats are available) are known to use the jumpseats. The pilot also had authority to let any passenger to occupy it. Celebrities used to be invited there.

A friend of mine who is a pilot in a private air-liner did mention that some times he used to sit in the cockpit when he is actually off-duty. Like for example, the pilot's duty turn is over at Bangalore, but he plans to fly to Cochin (his home station). But in this case looks like the parties concerned were relatives of some biggy-wiggy in Indian Air Lines/Air India.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 12 Jul 2009 21:03

If you get rid of Air India, who will bring all the maal from all our various embassies all over the world? How will the diplomatic bag be accomodated? Surely not on PIA or China Airways? How will the RAW station chief or the Indian Ambassador at an Indian embassy abroad communicate confidential matters with people back home?

The solution is to not get rid of Air India, but to discipline it, privatize it in parts. Air Parasite did get hit bad with the oil prices, and global recession.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 13 Jul 2009 07:04

If AI needs to carry courier bags and confidential papers, perhaps it should turn itself into a full fledged cargo airline. There are several advantages

- The cargo pallets would not mind grumpy old aunties, ticketing staff need not smile or be polite at all because anyway they are dealing with peons and couriers.
- Cargo would not mind being delayed by a few hours each time unless it is perishable cargo
- Cargo does not care if plane is old, seats dont have armrest, toilet stinks, cabin looks like 3rd class railway coach etc.
- Booming economy will bring guaranteed business. So parasites can continue to be 'employed'
- One or two planes can be kept for exclusive PM/VIP use so the pair of 'national jewels' can still be dangling about pretending to do business.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jul 2009 08:34

AI does not fly to many countries where india has important missions.
the diplomatic bags still somehow make it from there. I think such papers are hand carried by our version of the diplomatic security service or transmitted electronically after high encryption.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 13 Jul 2009 14:04

With all respect to saggu, and genuine concerns he may have., such spurious logic has in the past been used / attempted to use to sabotage all manners of privatisation/introduction of competition. Our netas who are perfectly happy to import defence and related stuff from overseas private companies (and earn commission on that) are ultra-sensitive to anything being made here by private sector. Nuclear -oh it is dangerous, Defence - oh it is security. Telecom -oh it is national security, terrorism. Ports, Airports, same. Banks, Insurance - same. The only thing not linked to national security is sale of Scooters India and Modern Bread or I would not be surprised if they tried that too. (even BALCO was in some convoluted way linked to security because they produce one or two sheets for ISRO).

Getting GOI to own an entire airline just to carry bags is like everyone buying a cow to get their morning cuppa.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 13 Jul 2009 18:16

http://profit.ndtv.com/2009/07/13171246 ... r-Ind.html

what a retrograde step?

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 13 Jul 2009 22:02

p_saggu wrote:If you get rid of Air India, who will bring all the maal from all our various embassies all over the world? How will the diplomatic bag be accomodated? Surely not on PIA or China Airways? How will the RAW station chief or the Indian Ambassador at an Indian embassy abroad communicate confidential matters with people back home?

The solution is to not get rid of Air India, but to discipline it, privatize it in parts. Air Parasite did get hit bad with the oil prices, and global recession.

Diplomatic bags don't normally contain highly sensitive stuff, usually just passport and inter embassy documents, verifications etc etc. However, if anything secret was to be transported it would be done in person, using what is called a diplomatic pouch that is worn on the persons waist, it has a red seal, that will show if there is any tampering. And by international law, that pouch is not allowed to be x-rayed etc. But today, things are probably relayed using encrypted means, electronically.

Besides, if there was anything confidential, the station chief who is sometimes "declared", will be on a flight home or send one of his staff back home to relay anything highly important.

If AI disappears, you can still transport sensitive stuff aboard Jet Airways, KF or any other Indian airline.