Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[k prasad]

x-posting from China thread to move the discussion here...

China's Pipe Dream
http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/200 ... ngine.html

At least they have a dream, and are not reluctant to spend on it. I would like to see such definite and far-sighted roadmaps from GTRE, ADA etc.

At least they have a dream, and are not reluctant to spend on it. I would like to see such definite and far-sighted roadmaps from GTRE, ADA etc.

Kailash, Perhaps you'd care to explain that in the engine thread??

What made you think that GTRE and ADA do not have roadmaps? You need to factor in the political support, financial support and our scientific support before dissing these two organizations -

China has been able to get where they are because their leaders are willing to pull all stops, spend all the money, buy the people required, steal the technology needed and do everything to get these projects running in double speed - and yet, they do not have a working engine of their own (and dont tell me about random dragon whatever engines that are cheap imitations of russian powerplants).

Please tell me what exactly is the fault of GTRE and ADA and DRDO in this? Perhaps the blame needs to be laid at the right door.

Yes,finally the buck must stop with the political leadership,who are the custodians,trustees of the country and its assets.Therefore by that yardstick,the GOI is the client and the one who should be the most interested in nationally sensitive and critical projects.The PRC on the other hand are a military/poliitical dictatorship who need answer to no one and whose priorities come first.Henc ethe massive and rapid modernisation by the ORC of its military in recent years and the sheer scale of production of new contemporary weapon systems.

Kailash, Perhaps you'd care to explain that in the engine thread??

What made you think that GTRE and ADA do not have roadmaps? You need to factor in the political support, financial support and our scientific support before dissing these two organizations -
.......

Please tell me what exactly is the fault of GTRE and ADA and DRDO in this? Perhaps the blame needs to be laid at the right door.

Well I meant exactly what you imply here. Due to all the above reasons, a road map can not exist. What is a road map which does not have govt funding and support? Past successes are crucial for a viable roadmap to work. Timely and successful delivery. But no one person is to blame here - time delays by research bodies (due to technical or finacial reasons), leads to less support from customers, leads to lesser money allocated for further research by govt. Each party is having lower confidence than the other....leading to a downward spiral.

I would be happy to be proven wrong. How many variants and offshoots of Kaveri/Kabini are planned for next 10-15 years? Any clear plans for improved thrust ratings, engines for UAVs, definite research to develop a dual mode ram/scram jet engines?

***Not sure how to move this to the engines thread, can someone help?

Well I meant exactly what you imply here. Due to all the above reasons, a road map can not exist........

the lack of a road map is the biggest lesson which Chinese engine-developer has got.

[shiv]

Lol pandyan - I did nothing... just what the press would have done .

No really prasad - you have been really special. Rakall was special too - but rakall is a known devil from Aero india 2007. So thanks. BRF owes its presence to the work done by people such as yourself.

[k prasad]

Kailash, Perhaps you'd care to explain that in the engine thread??

What made you think that GTRE and ADA do not have roadmaps? .......
Please tell me what exactly is the fault of GTRE and ADA and DRDO in this? Perhaps the blame needs to be laid at the right door.

Well I meant exactly what you imply here. Due to all the above reasons, a road map can not exist. What is a road map which does not have govt funding and support? Past successes are crucial for a viable roadmap to work. Timely and successful delivery. But no one person is to blame here - time delays by research bodies (due to technical or finacial reasons), leads to less support from customers, leads to lesser money allocated for further research by govt. Each party is having lower confidence than the other....leading to a downward spiral.

I would be happy to be proven wrong. How many variants and offshoots of Kaveri/Kabini are planned for next 10-15 years? Any clear plans for improved thrust ratings, engines for UAVs, definite research to develop a dual mode ram/scram jet engines?

***Not sure how to move this to the engines thread, can someone help?

hmm... looks like both of us are blaming the same people - GoI and the Babus. As you rightly point out, a clear roadmap can only be built on a foundation of previous work... for that, we need to build a foundation, no matter how long it takes.

Technology Gap:

To pin some blame where it is deserved, GTRE was far too overoptimistic in its timeline... however, the fact was, and was expanded by the GTRE director when I spoke to him, that we had absolutely no idea what we were getting into - Kaveri was the first engine development of ANY type (if you don't count license production that is). They had no help, no one was willing to collaborate, even in terms of giving detailed advise (the ones who offered offered their own engines instead), and needed to build up expertise...

Timeline
GTRE needed to first figure out the skills needed, then the infrastructure needed for that (a huge problem in the face of technology denial). Then the manpower, and the technology set up for R&D... only after which could we even look at starting the engine development. This would take at least 5-6 years, if not more. We are still mastering alloys and all. That should give an idea of the scale of the challenge.

This is a timeline taht everyone ignores - Kaveri was given sanction only in 1987-88, that too after the foreign engine for LCA fell through. Full sanction for LCA started only in 1993. Same for Kaveri. How can anyone then say that the program has been 25 years - it doesn't compute - all foreign programs start from FSED phase commencement - if we take the LCA on that, it is 1993. Kaveri is a bit later than that.

As Mohan Rao said, it was a huge shock for GTRE to be given such a massive task, and they were completely out of their league. They themselves were uncertain about their capabilities.

And to be fair to the Kaveri designers, their timeline, even to date, is better than other engine manufacturers - if they'd followed the Snecma M88 timeline, the Kaveri would be due for testbed tests in 2009 only - this is exactly what is happening. So we are actually quite competitive wrt other engines. For a first time, that is indeed impressive.

User Confidence:

Unfortunately, the problem with IA and IAF (and to a far lesser extent, the Navy) has been that they simply dont understand, or care to understand the challenges involved in R&D - they want things according to their whims, and on a yesterday basis. That is something that doesn't work. Moreover, they are highly reluctant to share the risk or cost of such a venture - this is just pure hypocrisy. The fact is that they didn't understand the challenges being faced.

Thankfully, this is an attitude that has changed. In fact, attitudes on both User and developer side has changed - on GTRE side, there is a new honesty and sense of urgency. They are also more ready to admit shortcomings and seek help.

Navy didn't really have to face the above challenges because:

1) they knew the challenges,
2) They worked with the designers and
3) If things failed, they had a strong R&D environment that they would go back to to fix things.... IAF and Army have none of these.



You mentioned the downward spiral of delays, low customer confidence and lower government outlay. This is true of a private program or a normal project... in case of such big projects, such a model should be torn apart. In fact, I'd say that the opposite happened:

low government outlay and support --> Lack of momentum. Add to that the technological challenges that come with R&D programs --> Delays. Delays in Allocation also delay programs further.

Coming to the "customer"... it is unfortunate that IAF thought of itself in those terms. This was a national project and it was IAF's duty to give all out support - I'm not saying that they should not have looked at other options as well - indeed, I'd fault them for that if so. However, the services should not sit back and expect to be served a final product - they have to participate in the cooking also.

Anyway, the good news is that all my cribbings are dissolving at present - both IAF and GTRE have changed their ways for the better. Hence, I think allocating blame now for past crimes is redundant... however, given that the MoD and the Babus don't seem to have learnt anything at all, and are hellbent on not changing, we can only crib about how they will ruin all that is going well. indeed, if GTRE and DRDO don't get the required funds and support for the infrastructure they need, how can we expect them to give results??

I would be happy to be proven wrong. How many variants and offshoots of Kaveri/Kabini are planned for next 10-15 years? Any clear plans for improved thrust ratings, engines for UAVs, definite research to develop a dual mode ram/scram jet engines?

***Not sure how to move this to the engines thread, can someone help?

Plans are still afoot, but as said - KMGT is going extremely well. It has acquired even more importance after the Shivalik thingy. A CNG version for the railways is being looked at. RAm and scramjets are already being done, including dual modes. That isn't directly under GTRE though - it is a multi-lab venture. UAV engines being developed at ADE, with help from GTRE.

The Kabini core is excellent, and they are indeed also looking at a high bypass version for civilian jets. They will continue to tweak it for more uses.

The Eco-Kaveri thing is already on the works for a higher thrust engine. we will definitely look at higher power engines also.

More uses will come to the fore in a 2-3 years, once the Kaveri gets air-tested and done. But more than the Kaveri, it is the technological advance that India, DRDO and GTRE have got that should be counted.

[Kailash]

Thanks K Prasad.

If GTRE should get the funding, there are a lot of areas they are fork into. We need engines for everything - be it IJT, ALH/LCH, Nirbhay, MCA or future UCAV. If they can create a marine version, they can easily creates the GTs required for Arjuns, heavier ships, diesel subs etc.

Currently, everything that flies in Indian skies with a turbojet or turboprop, has an imported engine.It is actually time to diversify and expand the width of products that GTRE can offer. Unless they fight for themselves, create their own opportunities and sell their products to the armed forces, media will continue to scapegoat out of them.

[chetak]

[quote="Kailash"]Thanks K Prasad.

If GTRE should get the funding, there are a lot of areas they are fork into. We need engines for everything - be it IJT, ALH/LCH, Nirbhay, MCA or future UCAV. If they can create a marine version, they can easily creates the GTs required for Arjuns, heavier ships, diesel subs etc.

AFAIK there are no GTs on a diesel sub.

[Sajith_J]

It is not limited to just LCA, MCA. for that matter Rafale has promised to integrate Kaveri into Rafale as well for MMRCA. The Mig-35 would just follow the french if they are chosen, as it is all up to us what we want to power up with.

Its a great news, but we need to sustain this further, and establish the Kaveri base-line into LCA. The #1 milestone crossing for Kaveri is to get its rightful place into LCA, and get it rated and certified.

Got this from Wiki:

GTX-35VS Kaveri
Military thrust (throttled):11,687 lbf (52.0 kN) 13,500 lbf (60.0 kN)
Full afterburner:18,210 lbf (81.0 kN) [Goal: 20,200 lbf (90.0 kN)]

Snecma M88-2
11,250 lbf (50.04 kN) military thrust
17,000 lbf (75.62 kN) with afterburner

So if we would take Rafale for MMRCA and Kaveri (even it's not finished now) already provides us more thrust than M88-2, is it ready and proven enough to use it in Rafale?
If yes, wouldn't it be better to use it on Rafale first and get EJ 200 with for LCA MKII, which already can SC and is offered with TVC? I mean we could get both aircrafts flying and get more knowledge and better experience to improve Kaveri for later upgrades (more thrust, maybe TVC and SC).

[k prasad]

Got this from Wiki:

GTX-35VS Kaveri
Military thrust (throttled):11,687 lbf (52.0 kN) 13,500 lbf (60.0 kN)
Full afterburner:18,210 lbf (81.0 kN) [Goal: 20,200 lbf (90.0 kN)]

Snecma M88-2
11,250 lbf (50.04 kN) military thrust
17,000 lbf (75.62 kN) with afterburner

So if we would take Rafale for MMRCA and Kaveri (even it's not finished now) already provides us more thrust than M88-2, is it ready and proven enough to use it in Rafale?
If yes, wouldn't it be better to use it on Rafale first and get EJ 200 with for LCA MKII, which already can SC and is offered with TVC? I mean we could get both aircrafts flying and get more knowledge and better experience to improve Kaveri for later upgrades (more thrust, maybe TVC and SC).

The issue is with technology - Kaveri will be totally insufficient for a single engine Tejas that is already 1000 kg overweight thanks to IAF's new requirements... the Kaveri would be good for the old Tejas, but the new tejas at 6500 kg is too heavy for it to do well.

Note that we are indeed looking at EJ200 or F414 on Tejas, as also the Snecma Eco-Kaveri Combo (which the IAF, according to some reports, is not happy about). In fact, the reason we are going for the Eco is to get technology, experience and thrust - all the reasons you've mentioned.

Also do note that I think the kaveri reheat thrust reqts is 81kN, and not 90. Also, no one has said we will go for the M88 on Tejas... talk has always been Eco Core + Kaveri.

[Sajith_J]

Got this from Wiki:

GTX-35VS Kaveri
Military thrust (throttled):11,687 lbf (52.0 kN) 13,500 lbf (60.0 kN)
Full afterburner:18,210 lbf (81.0 kN) [Goal: 20,200 lbf (90.0 kN)]

Snecma M88-2
11,250 lbf (50.04 kN) military thrust
17,000 lbf (75.62 kN) with afterburner

The issue is with technology - Kaveri will be totally insufficient for a single engine Tejas that is already 1000 kg overweight thanks to IAF's new requirements... the Kaveri would be good for the old Tejas, but the new tejas at 6500 kg is too heavy for it to do well.

Note that we are indeed looking at EJ200 or F414 on Tejas, as also the Snecma Eco-Kaveri Combo (which the IAF, according to some reports, is not happy about). In fact, the reason we are going for the Eco is to get technology, experience and thrust - all the reasons you've mentioned.

Also do note that I think the kaveri reheat thrust reqts is 81kN, and not 90. Also, no one has said we will go for the M88 on Tejas... talk has always been Eco Core + Kaveri.

I think u get me wrong! I understand that Kaveri now is not the right engine for Tejas, that's why I asked if we could use Kaveri on double engine Dassault Rafale (if this fighter wins the MRCA competition) instead of Snecma M88-2?
Wiki says it already offers us more thrust then the french engine, so is Kaveri proven and reliable enough, or does it need some more years with testing?

[k prasad]

The issue is with technology - Kaveri will be totally insufficient for a single engine Tejas that is already 1000 kg overweight thanks to IAF's new requirements... the Kaveri would be good for the old Tejas, but the new tejas at 6500 kg is too heavy for it to do well.

Note that we are indeed looking at EJ200 or F414 on Tejas, as also the Snecma Eco-Kaveri Combo (which the IAF, according to some reports, is not happy about). In fact, the reason we are going for the Eco is to get technology, experience and thrust - all the reasons you've mentioned. Also do note that I think the kaveri reheat thrust reqts is 81kN, and not 90. Also, no one has said we will go for the M88 on Tejas... talk has always been Eco Core + Kaveri.

I think u get me wrong! I understand that Kaveri now is not the right engine for Tejas, that's why I asked if we could use Kaveri on double engine Dassault Rafale (if this fighter wins the MRCA competition) instead of Snecma M88-2?
Wiki says it already offers us more thrust then the french engine, so is Kaveri proven and reliable enough, or does it need some more years with testing?

Hmm.... sorry for that then... Indeed, we could put the Kaveri on Rafale - in fact, I did ask the people at Rafale that question (the answer is in the AI thread).... Dassault was in fact the first contender to offer this engine change. Given teh Eco-Kaveri coming up, they are even more keen to offer that to sweeten the deal. According to their rep, if the sizes match, there shouldn't be too much problem with re-engining the aircraft with the Kaveri.

however, do note that the eco-Kaveri will probably take a couple of years to come out. Add to that the testing required. Also, IAF seems not too happy with the Eco-kaveri thing (however, this is something that isn't very clear at the moment).... all in all, I'd think that we'll still look for the M88 in the initial Rafales. If there is indeed a re-engining offer, that may be later, but with things unclear at the moment, especially with the Kaveri not yet ready, I'd say that IAF will be hedging its bets.

[Raj Malhotra]

I think we need to understand that Turbines are a major sector of high technology and kaveri is all but just a small part.What we need is supermassive investment in building Labs before we can even think of competing with foreign engines

[Sajith_J]

however, do note that the eco-Kaveri will probably take a couple of years to come out. Add to that the testing required. Also, IAF seems not too happy with the Eco-kaveri thing (however, this is something that isn't very clear at the moment).... all in all, I'd think that we'll still look for the M88 in the initial Rafales. If there is indeed a re-engining offer, that may be later, but with things unclear at the moment, especially with the Kaveri not yet ready, I'd say that IAF will be hedging its bets.

Thx! So we have to wait to UAE to fund the M88-3 version if we choose Rafale, and keep hoping that Kaveri will be ready for MCA.

[shetty]

Didn't know where else to put it.

US riders keeping Bhel out of growing gas turbine markets

[k prasad]

Thx! So we have to wait to UAE to fund the M88-3 version if we choose Rafale, and keep hoping that Kaveri will be ready for MCA.

Not necessarily... lets see. As for Eco-veri , we can expect it to be ready by the time MCA design is finalized i guess. No need to worry on that front either.

[arun]

Some information on the new engine for the Nishant UAV:

New rotary takes flight in India

by Edwin Krampitz, Jr.

1 May 2009

…………… On March 2009 India’s Nishant unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) successfully flew with a rotary engine built entirely in India. ………………. The Nishant has previously used the imported AR–801, a derivative of the old Norton motorcycle rotary, built by UAV Engines Ltd (UEL) in Britain. The new rotary, designation not given, is intended to replace the AR–801. ………..............

The new rotary has a single rotor of 324 cm³ (19.8 in³) displacement, rated at 41 kW (55 hp) at 8000 rpm. These are the engine prototype specifications:

Rotor radius, R: 71.0 mm
Rotor eccentricity, e: 11.6 mm
Rotor width, B or W: 75.2 mm
Equidistance, a: 0.5 mm
R’ = R + a = 71.5 mm
R/e or K ratio: 6.12:1

Compression ratio: 9.2:1
Rotor recess volume: 15.82 cm³
Redline in ground testing: 8100 rpm
Housing cooling: water/glycol
Rotor cooling: air
Fuel: 100LL avgas
Trochoid coating: nickel-silicon carbide composite
Engine weight as installed in Nishant: approx. 30 kg (65 lb) ……………

The eagle-eyed will note that R, e, and a are the same as those of the old Fichtel & Sachs KM–914 and KM–24 snowmobile engines and the Norton, Alvis, and UEL rotaries developed from those designs. However, the rotor width for the Indian rotary is different from all of these: it is the widest of all. (But a new prototype derived in Israel from the UEL units would have an even greater width if it sees production.) Since NAL had to devise a coating technique for the trochoid and special aluminum alloys for castings, help or tooling from UEL or anyone else seems unlikely, particularly since this is a competing application and probably proceeded in some secrecy. Instead, with all the experience using the AR–801 in the Nishant, NAL likely decided to use the UEL rotor dimensions for quicker validation of sealing materials and machining techniques. ……………………….

Rotary News

[arun]

Test Flight of AL 55 I engined Sitara IJT imminent :

Date:06/05/2009

HAL to flight-test jet trainer

Staff Reporter

Kiran aircraft to be replaced with IJT as stage-2 trainer of IAF

IAF trains pilots using different aircraft
Order for 12 aircraft placed with HAL

KOLLAM: The stage is set for replacing the Kiran aircraft with the Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) as the stage-2 trainer of the Indian Air Force, with the Russian AL-55 I engine being integrated with the airplane designed and developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

Highly placed sources connected with the project told The Hindu that HAL would start flight tests of the IJT with the Russian engine in May. ...................

The Hindu

Information on the AL 55 from the manufacturer NPO Saturn’s website is available:

1.. Here.
2.. And Here.

[Tanaji]

Apologies for a dumb question but can someone clear this up:

The Kaveri in its current form cannot meet the requirements of LCA for thrust. Unless significant re-engineering is done, most likely with partnership of engines like EJ2000 or GE414 (?), the engine is not ready. So why is more engineering work being done on the current design with reference to tests in Moscow? Is it to fine tune the Kabini core so that they can use it for marine applications?

[narayana]

Test Flight of AL 55 I engined Sitara IJT imminent :

Flight tests with new engine already started,but isnt it OT

HAL’s intermediate jet trainer HJT-36 makes maiden flight with Russian engine

Overcoming numerous integration issues the indigenous intermediate jet trainer (IJT) Hindustan Jet Trainer-36 (HJT-36) presently under development at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has crossed a major milestone making its maiden flight with the Russian AL-551 engine.

Piloted by HAL’s Executive Director Squadron Leader (retd) Baldev Singh and the Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) Wing Commander K.D. Bhat, the HJT-36’s Prototype One (PT1) undertook a 30 minute flight on May 9 landing without any hitches.

[SaiK]

These integration issues must be well documented so that the learning process can give valuable feedback to LCA program when LCAs would get ported with Kaveri engine replacing existing and augmented GE engines.

Good job HAL, but at the same time, IAF also needs to know next time when drafting requirements, they don't rate specs to actuals, rather derate their specifications on engines, and other requirements details to atleast +30% by value, so that we don't have to go through this expensive integration affair.

I am happy atleast now, they wanted 100kN kaveris.. and hope it remains the same for LCA till IAF gets about 5 or 6 squadrons.

[Omar]

Testing of an 'enhanced compressor' for Kaveri occuring at AneCom

English translation using google:

Following the successful first test of the compressor component in autumn 2008 AneCom AeroTest received the follow-up order for the enhanced compressor. The replacement activities of the test rig already started and the follow-up test will be executed end 2009. That order confirms the previous trustful and efficient collaboration and deepened the indo-german business relations.

It appears the problem w/compressors has been rectified and the current solution will be tested till end of 2009. Maybe the current estimate for first flight of an LCA powered by Kaveri should be pushed back?

[Omar]

Director GTRE (India) T. Mohan Rao visited SIC CIAM April 2009

Translated Russian using google:

GTRE director T. Mohan Rao and Director-General of CIAM Skibin VA discussed the results of previous tests specified test the fan and compressor engine cover, and also reviewed the plans for further cooperation.

[suryag]

Omar Ghee and Shakkar to you. I hope we have some news complementing/summarizing the above two news items from the official channels soon

[d_berwal]

Testing of an 'enhanced compressor' for Kaveri occuring at AneCom

English translation using google:

Following the successful first test of the compressor component in autumn 2008 AneCom AeroTest received the follow-up order for the enhanced compressor. The replacement activities of the test rig already started and the follow-up test will be executed end 2009. That order confirms the previous trustful and efficient collaboration and deepened the indo-german business relations.

It appears the problem w/compressors has been rectified and the current solution will be tested till end of 2009. Maybe the current estimate for first flight of an LCA powered by Kaveri should be pushed back?

Guess We all Missed This

http://www.anecom.de/frontend/index.cfm ... N=31828471
AneCom AeroTest received its first major order from Asia at the end of this year. It includes our complete portfolio ranging from the construction, production, assembly to tests of a multistage high pressure compressor. This project is the preliminary climax of our efforts on this market. We are pleased together with our Asian partners about an exciting and very interesting project, which will run until the beginning of 2008.

[Omar]

AneCom AeroTest received its first major order from Asia at the end of this year.

I saw that on the AneCom website when I posted the second link. Its seemed vague don't you think? If they were referring to India as their 'Asian' partner why didn't they just spell it out? They've plastered pictures of LCA and information regarding the testing of an enhanced compressor elsewhere on the site.

Perhaps GTRE's earlier contract related to compressor testing at AneCom specified that the latter keep a low profile about the partnership. But this probably changed after GTRE director stated that the Kaveri had undergone some testing at AneCom at AeroIndia 2009. Prior to AeroIndia 2009, I don't recall any mention of AneCom testing from public channels-just whatever was happening at CIAM (gurus can chime in if i'm wrong about this)

[k prasad]

Testing of an 'enhanced compressor' for Kaveri occuring at AneCom

English translation using google:

Following the successful first test of the compressor component in autumn 2008 AneCom AeroTest received the follow-up order for the enhanced compressor. The replacement activities of the test rig already started and the follow-up test will be executed end 2009. That order confirms the previous trustful and efficient collaboration and deepened the indo-german business relations.

It appears the problem w/compressors has been rectified and the current solution will be tested till end of 2009. Maybe the current estimate for first flight of an LCA powered by Kaveri should be pushed back?

Superb find Omar... great to know that something is moving (even if a few months later than expected)... I guess the integration may happen only early 2010, but thats still better than nothing.

[R Nathan]

http://www.metal-pages.com/news/story/38262/

Low-rhenium and rhenium-free superalloys take wing on GE engines

LONDON (Metal-Pages) 13-Mar-09. Aircraft engine manufacturer GE Aviation has succeeded in reducing the content of rare metal rhenium in nickel-based alloys used in its engine parts.

The new alloys, one rhenium-free, another with half the rhenium content of the long-serving René N5 are now being introduced on CFM engines following successful testing last year, Bob Schafrik, GE's head of materials told Metal-Pages in an interview.

"The alloy which has no rhenium is the N500 which will be used in static parts. The N515 alloy ...


CFM, CFM56 and the CFM logo are all trademarks of CFM International, a 50/50 Joint company of Snecma (SAFRAN Group) and General Electric.

http://www.cfm56.com/products

Spanning a thrust range of 18,500 to 34,000 pounds, CFM engines are the power behind more than 7,500 commercial and military aircraft.

[putnanja]

IAF rejects French offer on engine for Tejas - Ravi Sharma

...
The LCA will not be operationalised with the Kaveri, since GTRE will not be able to satisfy the Indian Air Force’s requirement for a low altitude, high speed engine with a thrust of at least 90 kilo Newton (kN) within the extended timeframe, weight or volume.

GTRE officials told The Hindu that they hoped a Kaveri engine co-developed by the GTRE and the French aero engine house Snecma could at least become, in the distant future, the power for the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) that is still to be designed. “The IAF agrees that the MCA should be designed around a 90 kN thrust Snecma-GTRE Kaveri engine. The Kaveri could be tested on the LCA, but the aircraft won’t be operationalised.”


...
The IAF’s rejection of the French offer comes after a committee, headed by Air Vice-Marshal M. Matheswaran, pointed out that the Snecma offer did not meet the Air Force’s performance (air staff) requirements, did not give the GTRE the core engine technology it was looking for, and did not help eliminate deficiencies in the Kaveri’s design.

“Assimilate” technology


Both Snecma and the GTRE contested the IAF’s stand, saying that the relevant design technology would, in stages, be assimilated to the Indian defence laboratories.

According to Snecma’s chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin, his company could pass on the design and manufacturing technology to Indian entities as soon as it “could assimilate it.” Mr. Petitcolin told The Hindu that collaboration could save the GTRE at least 20 years in developing an aero engine.

...

[Vivek K]

50 years since GTRE came into being, 102 yrs since first manned flight and GTRE is still 20 years behind? Seems that every yr GTRE is sliiping further behind. This org needs a serious review.

[Omar]

So we believe anything goras say on this forum?

[SaiK]

GTRE org and management has flaws, but not that it needs such candid and stupid cut+paste ddm articles by ravi sharma. This idiot just manages paste same cr@p again and again not knowing the tech at all.

if this guy can't provide decent articles, we at BR should not even post links of him at all// where is that ddm thread?

[p_saggu]

Firstly you expect GTRE to come up with a world class engine starting from scratch without it having successfully developed one in the past. (The marut's engine doesn't count as a world class effort)
Second you don't equip it with all the basic necessary implements. No test rigs in place, no computer controlled lathe machines for precision tooling etc.
Third, the nation as a whole is poor in metallurgy, The nation as a whole learned along with GTRE and DRDO's missile programmes about the new alloys composites and metals for the first time.
Fourth there is everything from red tape and funding problems to deal with.
And finally, when GTRE comes close to its laid out target - albeit late - the specs got changed for the LCA.

Let us stone GTRE for its failures where they are genuinely ITS lack of failures, but not if the system conspired to make it a failure in the first place.

[Vivek K]

p_saggu - well who made GTRE responsible for the Kaverithen? Since the early 80s we have been reading about the success of the GTX 1437U (whatever). This was to transition into the Kaveri. Now sometimes we hear that it has achieved its original goals and sometimes that it has not. Who are we to believe? Why can an accurate picture not be provided. In the absence of reliable information and visible signs of progress, what are we to understand?

[vsudhir]

p_saggu - well who made GTRE responsible for the Kaverithen? Since the early 80s we have been reading about the success of the GTX 1437U (whatever). This was to transition into the Kaveri. Now sometimes we hear that it has achieved its original goals and sometimes that it has not. Who are we to believe? Why can an accurate picture not be provided. In the absence of reliable information and visible signs of progress, what are we to understand?

Kindly look through k prasad's post.

He quotes the GTRE Director (as close to the Horse's mouth as you can get) as saying, unambiguously, that the GTRE developed kaveri has met the original design specs. Period.

There are many DDMs and phoren hands not interested in not muddling this simple picture.

Further, in subsequent posts, we learn that the kaveri:
1. will be integrated onto LCA to further knowledge and experience
2. the kaveri-integrated LCA will not be operationalized but tested for study purposes
3. The IAF has no objection to considering the present kaveri for the MCA to come.

Kindly do correct if I'm mistaken anywhere. TIA.

[shiv]

Testing a Kaveri on the LCA is as sweet a situation as we can hope for because - finally after many decades we will have an indigenous engine being tested on an indigenous airframe without the chicken or egg scenario of flying an untested engine with an untested airframe. The airframe has been tested to completion (almost) and is airworthy. The next step will be to test our engine.

Maybe the MCA will become reality and while that is being done the Kaveri itself will be made better - giving an engine that can even be used on a version of the LCA in 10-15 years time.

Just count the number of countries in the world who have a home designed jet engine flying a home designed airframe.

[NRao]

p_saggu - well who made GTRE responsible for the Kaverithen? Since the early 80s we have been reading about the success of the GTX 1437U (whatever). This was to transition into the Kaveri. Now sometimes we hear that it has achieved its original goals and sometimes that it has not. Who are we to believe? Why can an accurate picture not be provided. In the absence of reliable information and visible signs of progress, what are we to understand?

My understanding:

The original goals - set in 80-90's - have been met. This version is set to be integrated into the LCA.

Meanwhile the IAF, convinced that the LCA is a viable air craft, request a more powerful (greater thrust) engine (than either the goal achieved Kaveri or the GE engine). This set the ball rolling, which has not led to this situation - where the IAF has rejected the offer by Snecma.

However, the IAF does not seem to be averse to the great thrust Kaveri being developed so that they can use the new Kaveri to power the MCA.

My suspicion is that the Snecma chief's statement that it will take another 20 years has a fudge factor of some where between 50-20%. So, I suspect India can deliver a higher thrust Kaveri - with India research - in about 10-15 years. Or India can speed it up somewhat to a slightly shorter time frame by using the Snecma solution.

The possibility of calling the Snecma's bluff also exists. This move could force Snecma's hand. ?????

[Gagan]

And also remember this Kaveri has acheived its designated targets without cutting edge tech incorporated into it.
Single crystal blade tech and the like, where we are still at the bottom of the learning curve, and I am sure many other small and significant areas. All this because the equipment and tech is sensitive and is not obtainable from abroad.

If Kaveri has indeed met its original set goals, this is a great acheivement for GTRE and India.

The second thing I was concerned about is, It is one thing to make an engine which meets its set goals, another thing to have that engine continually perform to meet that level of performance day in and out, in all possible weather, amidst grime and dust and rain. Reliablity and servicability issues are of huge importance.

Kaveri will only now begin testing on the LCA to evaluate for all of these factors. There will have to be some modifications yet on the final production version.

[Katare]

Current LCA has grown into 'not so light combat aircraft' now while Kaveri is just coming to its design goals established in late 80's. It promised a working engine in 7 years that didn't happen. So LCA although had it's own delays but it still managed to move faster than Kaveri. Let them make what they can and test it, there will be some use for it in the future.......

Decoupling of LCA with Kaveri is critical for the success at this time.

[Prem Kumar]

The possibility of calling the Snecma's bluff also exists. This move could force Snecma's hand. ?????

Interesting possibility. A while ago, I remember the discussion in this thread about how the Snecma deal might not be so great after all - if they offer just the engine core but no transfer of design know-how. This could be IAF's way of forcing more concessions from Snecma if they "want in" on the project. Again, why the IAF should care or why GTRE is siding with Snecma - one doesnt know. But if the Rafale MRCA episode is anything to go by, we have learnt that its good to deliver a kick in the butt to the French every now and then to get them to shape up.

[Kanson]

IAF rejects French offer on engine for Tejas

BANGALORE: It’s final: the indigenous Kaveri aero engine, under development at the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) for 20 years with the specific objective of powering the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, will now not fulfil that task.

The LCA will not be operationalised with the Kaveri, since GTRE will not be able to satisfy the Indian Air Force’s requirement for a low altitude, high speed engine with a thrust of at least 90 kilo Newton (kN) within the extended timeframe, weight or volume.

GTRE officials told The Hindu that they hoped a Kaveri engine co-developed by the GTRE and the French aero engine house Snecma could at least become, in the distant future, the power for the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) that is still to be designed. “The IAF agrees that the MCA should be designed around a 90 kN thrust Snecma-GTRE Kaveri engine. The Kaveri could be tested on the LCA, but the aircraft won’t be operationalised.”

GTRE and IAF chartered out two different road maps for the Kaveri. With specs change for the Mark II(LCA), GTRE scrambled with an offer of Kaveri-Snecma engine within the timeframe mentioned for Mark II but IAF wanted the Kaveri to be swadeshi even it might take more time. This is an old news. This has nothing to do with MCA as such.

[Arun_S]

IAF rejects French offer on engine for Tejas - Ravi Sharma

...
The LCA will not be operationalised with the Kaveri, since GTRE will not be able to satisfy the Indian Air Force’s requirement for a low altitude, high speed engine with a thrust of at least 90 kilo Newton (kN) within the extended timeframe, weight or volume.

GTRE officials told The Hindu that they hoped a Kaveri engine co-developed by the GTRE and the French aero engine house Snecma could at least become, in the distant future, the power for the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) that is still to be designed. “The IAF agrees that the MCA should be designed around a 90 kN thrust Snecma-GTRE Kaveri engine. The Kaveri could be tested on the LCA, but the aircraft won’t be operationalised.”


...
The IAF’s rejection of the French offer comes after a committee, headed by Air Vice-Marshal M. Matheswaran, pointed out that the Snecma offer did not meet the Air Force’s performance (air staff) requirements, did not give the GTRE the core engine technology it was looking for, and did not help eliminate deficiencies in the Kaveri’s design.

“Assimilate” technology


Both Snecma and the GTRE contested the IAF’s stand, saying that the relevant design technology would, in stages, be assimilated to the Indian defence laboratories.

According to Snecma’s chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin, his company could pass on the design and manufacturing technology to Indian entities as soon as it “could assimilate it.” Mr. Petitcolin told The Hindu that collaboration could save the GTRE at least 20 years in developing an aero engine.

...

I have grudging respect for Air Vice-Marshal M. Matheswaran, and trust his decision to be in interest of Indian defense.
As director ASR at Air-HQ he knows subject matter and also how to bend the gora arms dealer into shape. The only missing piece is what is his game plan to realize the objective; saying no is easy, but does not solve the problem.

A birdie tells me he wielded Indian strategic deterrence during Op-Parakram and later SFC. In faint dreamy recollection I recall being co located on an airfield on western border, the launch pad of Indian strat weapons loaded on Mig-xx the day after (i.e. December 14, 2001) and the tamil bull in command.

[Omar]

I don't know if the author really knows what he's talking about (he's not an engineer...of course neither am I ) but maybe we don't need single crystal blade technology to achieve increased thrust for the same weight (assuming this hasn't already been tried since this article was written back in 2002). There *might* be other areas of the Kaveri engine that can be similarly 'optimized' using open source, non-proprietary processes.

The titanium blades fitted on to the hub of the Kaveri Jet engine built for the LCA - on the test bed at GTRE - are not made using nano-technology. Cooling channels carrying air are imbedded in the airfoil shaped blades made of Nickel-Chromium-Aluminum ‘super alloy’. This withstands a temperature of 1,000 degrees Celsius. When subjected to temperatures beyond this, dimensions of the blade may change....A Thermal Barrier Coat (TBC) of ‘micron-size’ ceramic on the surface of the blade can insulate the other side of the blade to remain at a temperature of about 800 degrees Celsius. The coat can be of a thickness of 15 micron. If nano-sized ceramic particles are used, the thermal barrier coat can be only five micron thick. Jet pipe temperature rises even up to 1,500 degrees Celsius. Higher jet pipe temperature can give more thrust. In other words successful adaptation of nano-technology helps to increase the thrust of the jet engine, for the same weight.

Link: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... akash.html