Indian Military Aviation

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 11 Jul 2009 11:23

As for strategic bombing, well it does certainly have its uses. Check out the highway of death during Gulf War I. Also if you can fix enemy forces into place, you can carpet bomb them into oblivion.

Strategic bombers are very useful for negating conventional forces that are out in the open or trying to maneuver around your flanks. It is also useful for taking out warmaking and warfighting capabilities such as power plants, fuel depots, transmission relay stations, communication nodes, petroleum refineries. Once those things are hit and gone, your ability to wage war on your terms become severely degraded and you are down to guerrilla tactics which is not much to begin with. Downgrading the conventional capability to guerrilla capability is like downgrading to a go cart from a Porsche.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 11 Jul 2009 11:33

I dont know if this sounds stupid, but how much of a deterrent would a strategic bomber fleet at the ready be construed as?

If the IN or IAF has a fleet of supersonic bombers capable of delivering a string of LACMs or nuclear weapons escorted by MKIs or such to rain on a chinese parade, wouldnt that force the PLA/N to think differently? Make things difficult for themselves thinking of what the bombers could do?

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 11 Jul 2009 11:48

Singha wrote:some could be used for ELINT missions, standoff jammers,
escort jammers on naval strikes by fighters, JSTARS etc.
a kind of desi 707 shell to be utilized for all military C4I
tasks in various versions.

we need to settle on one such shell whether EMB or A321
and move forward.

while we are at it, use such desi airframe

to air launch a Prithvi kind of ballistic missile (allow the Prithvi to simulate Agni's reentry speed)

re-arm the LCAs, UCAVs in flight

launch the scramjet flight with a "pegasus" style booster after ferrying it to ideal sat launch locations

astronaut training

replacements for rajdoot

and finally f***ing export them as cheaper transports, this in itself is a gain over China

given its multi role capability, the intrinsic Indian need should be satisfied

arun · Post by **arun** » 11 Jul 2009 17:51

Anujan wrote:
Gerard wrote:Indian Army bought choppers with technical flaws: Auditor
Murky DDM-itis. From the article

HAL, however, failed to overcome the shortcomings in the ALH even after five years as of December 2006
It is very clear from HAL's website that the first test flight with a Shakthi engine was made in August of 2007. Dhruvs produced *after* the engine cleared the trials (some time in 2008) have the Shakthi engine in them, IIRC there was an article about replacing the engines in the older Dhruvs.

No Murky DDM-itis here.

The CAG’s concerns with the Dhruv’s altitude capabilities does not end with the upgrading of their engine to the Ardiden/Shakthi.

The CAG also finds the Ardiden/Shakthi to be "deficient in power":

CAG blasts Dhruv project, Krasnopol purchase

TNN 11 July 2009, 12:47am IST

……………… "Successive attempts to improve the performance of Dhruv's engine have not ensured its reliability in high-altitude areas affecting Army's operational preparedness,'' said CAG.

To compound problems, another Rs 9,490 crore contract for 105 more Dhruvs was inked with HAL in December 2007. This despite its newly-developed `Shakti' engine also being found to be "deficient in power". ………………..

TOI

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 11 Jul 2009 17:54

LCH was supposed to fly by August, 2009..
Any news or update..

-Nitin

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 11 Jul 2009 17:57

Quote:
CAG blasts Dhruv project, Krasnopol purchase

To compound problems, another Rs 9,490 crore contract for 105 more Dhruvs was inked with HAL in December 2007. This despite its newly-developed `Shakti' engine also being found to be "deficient in power". ………………..
TOI

I don't think so. IAF/IA are not ready to accept any thing that does not meet their requirements (LCA /Arjun). why have they accepted and also ordered 105 more dhruvs...
Things are not clear... something is fishy

-Nitin

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 11 Jul 2009 18:00

Before posting trash, why dont you check your sources?

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070220_alh_dhruv.htm

If you are truly interested, go here, and you will find a commendation from the Indian Army to HAL for high altitude Dhruv ops and serviceability also. you can also get the unit name, the name of the commander and actual figures.

http://www.hal-india.com/e-paper.asp

As for CAG less said about CAG capabilities the better, sometimes they raise good points sometimes they are more confused than DDM
Same fools also said why Ind Army purchased T-72 ammunition in Kargil war not even thinking of whether the war would escalate or not.

And its Shakti not Shakthi

And ALH vibration issues were solved, now they have a 3rd Gen Vibration monitoring and control system of india origin for the ALH

This business of hyping out of date CAG reports by media is a useless exercise done to create hype by media and by CAG to get free publicity.
105 choppers ordered are still less given number of tasks Indian Army needs helicopters for

arun wrote:No Murky DDM-itis here.

The CAG’s concerns with the Dhruv’s altitude capabilities does not end with the upgrading of their engine to the Ardiden/Shakthi.

The CAG also finds the Ardiden/Shakthi to be "deficient in power":

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 13 Jul 2009 05:32

^^^ Vikram after reading your post all I could think of is getting you in a room with some idiot DDMs and may be even some of the CAG people so that you can give them a nice personal dress down onlee

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 13 Jul 2009 05:45

What is this on the HAL page? HAL equivalent of BRF's NSN?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 13 Jul 2009 06:01

http://www.hal-india.com/minsk.asp

HAL launches newspaper from Minsk Square

The historic Minsk Square on Bangalore’s famous Cubbon Road shares its name with a newspaper now.

Minsk Square Matters, launched by State-owned aviation major Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), was rolled out from the hangars of Corporate Office on September 1. A completely indigenous product, this weekly tabloid is a unique attempt to reach out to the 30,000-strong HAL family, apart from the Media, Services, Government, Corporate Houses and Customers.

Similar to HAL’s star products, Minsk Square Matters too boasts of state-of-the-art components including crisp content, dazzling design, great graphics and other paraphernalia, which befit a complete newspaper.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 13 Jul 2009 07:01

Another pasture for CAG to venture into.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Jul 2009 10:53

^^^
MSM is being brought out for some years now.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jul 2009 10:56

I am upset that people have the temerity to compare the the lowly MSM of HAL with NSN. Please cease and desist.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 14 Jul 2009 07:26

Rs 10,000cr deal likely for Mirage-2000 upgrade

NEW DELHI
: Even as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh left for Paris on Monday to further consolidate the ‘strategic partnership’ with France, the two countries are now all set to ink the around Rs 10,000 crore deal to upgrade the Mirage-2000 fighter jets in IAF’s combat fleet. This will be the second mega defence deal to be signed with France in recent times after the ongoing mammoth Rs 18,798 crore project to construct six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai.

With defence secretary Vijay Singh being part of the PM’s entourage to Paris, sources said the announcement about the upgrade of the French-origin Mirages is very much on the cards during the trip. The ‘differences’ over the upgrade project had been ‘resolved’ after almost two years of hard-nosed negotiations, which were bogged down for some time because French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer) and Thales (weapons systems integrator) wanted close to Rs 14,000 crore for the programme.

‘‘The two sides have now arrived at a reasonable price around Rs 10,000 crore. The first four to six Mirages will be upgraded in France, with the rest 50 or so being upgraded in India by Hindustan Aeronautics under transfer of technology,’’ said a source.
Under the upgrade, the entire airframe will be stripped down to be re-wired and re-equipped with new avionics, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites and of course weapon systems to extend and enhance the operational life of the multi-role fighters by around 20 years.

India had first inducted 40 Mirages in the mid-1980s, with over 20 more being bought in later years. IAF has had a ‘good’ experience with the fighters, which successfully carried out ‘targeted bombings’ during the 1999 Kargil conflict. Some years ago, IAF had even pitched for the advanced Mirage-2000-Vs for its gigantic $10-billion project for 126 new medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

The defence ministry, however, told IAF to go in for ‘a global tender’ for the MMRCA project, and France too closed its Mirage production line. Now, the French Rafale is competing with American F/A-18 ‘Super Hornet’ (Boeing) and F-16 ‘Falcon’ (Lockheed Martin), Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation), Swedish Gripen (Saab) and Eurofighter Typhoon (consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies) in the hotly-contested MMRCA race.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Jul 2009 09:59

I dunno but is $40-$45 million per aircraft upgrade justified?, are we getting Aesa Radar's and meteor?? somthing does not seem to meet the eye here.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 14 Jul 2009 10:03

^^^
Would it not have been better to replace the Mirage with the winner of the MRCA tender, esp. as it seems to cost as much as a new aircraft? Any of the gurus here care to comment?

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 14 Jul 2009 10:04

This seems like the entire aircraft is being stripped and entirely new wiring / fibreoptic cabling being done. maybe MKI-sing the aircraft too, with datalinks etc.
The end result might be the aircraft becoming a 4+ generation aircraft, including the capability to fire all current + upcoming NATO mil hardware.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 14 Jul 2009 10:12

Aditya_V wrote:I dunno but is $40-$45 million per aircraft upgrade justified?, are we getting Aesa Radar's and meteor?? somthing does not seem to meet the eye here.

that roughly equals a shiny new MKI .. why not ad few more dollars get more MKI's ....

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 14 Jul 2009 10:19

MKI is close to 62-65 mil per plane.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 14 Jul 2009 10:20

parshuram wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:I dunno but is $40-$45 million per aircraft upgrade justified?, are we getting Aesa Radar's and meteor?? somthing does not seem to meet the eye here.

that roughly equals a shiny new MKI .. why not ad few more dollars get more MKI's ....

What is your problem if the babus make a little bit of retirement bonus.

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 14 Jul 2009 10:24

^^^ because they're russian, maybe?

reliability, parts, etc - france i believe has been pretty good re the mirage

any thoughts though on how this places the rafale in the MMRCA playoffs? as in, could go either way: india going for a much stronger eco-political relationship with france, taking the rafale as well as the upgrades for the mirages, massive, massive trade, sending a message to the russians/ alternately, it's "look sarko, we're paying through our noses for your old jets, now we're throwing the new one out, no one really trusts it yet/ we need more mcdonald's outlets and therefore some american planes"

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Jul 2009 11:53

Vikram_S wrote:Before posting trash, why dont you check your sources?

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070220_alh_dhruv.htm .........................

arun wrote:No Murky DDM-itis here.

The CAG’s concerns with the Dhruv’s altitude capabilities does not end with the upgrading of their engine to the Ardiden/Shakthi.

The CAG also finds the Ardiden/Shakthi to be "deficient in power":

Spare me your harangue on my posting trash

.

How many more press articles is it going to take to get you to quit acting like an ill-mannered bumpkin with faster fingers than good sense and accept the fact that the CAG also has a problem with the Ardiden/Shakti engined Dhruv?

For starters will the Hindu do?:

ALH delay holding up de-induction of old Army copters: CAG report

Viv Sreenivasan · Post by **Viv Sreenivasan** » 14 Jul 2009 15:09

At $40M US a pop the Mirage upgrade better be something great otherwise India is getting ripped off big time.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 Jul 2009 15:38

arun wrote: For starters will the Hindu do?:

ALH delay holding up de-induction of old Army copters: CAG report

Well arun, please give everyone here a break. We are very familar with CAG and its method of computing costs for coffins for jawans at the rate of raw aluminum etc.

Furthermore CAG is not qualified to make a statement on whether ALH is underpowered or not. It uses an old IA study which even at best if you had read the report that Hindu itself prints, it says it is not sure if the Shakti engines will meet requirement. as always CAG lives in a time wrap and present reports today which are based on information gathered usually 2 years back (standard CAG lag) ONE IA study pre 2007 (before ALH with Shakti) raising possible potential problem IS NOT EQUAL TO a statement that Shakti does not suffice for ALH.

However many others recent sources have pointed to more than satisfactory hot and high performance by Dhruv.

Finally Cheetah/Chetak and ALH are completely different class of Helicopters, the Cheetah/Chetak will not be replaced by Dhruv's at all, but by the 197 LOH tender.

Any report which says Cheetah replacement is held up by Dhruv shortcomings needs to be laughed out of the world were it a remotely sane world -- usually such a report would be torn to shreds on BRF as soon as posted. I guess folks are just to bored chasing the easy meat of CAG reports now.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 14 Jul 2009 15:44

Exchanging with whom ... Why would french be interested in getting these mirages .... they them selves are replacing there fleet with rafales.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 Jul 2009 15:52

The quest for "wait lets not spend the 2000 cr now, because if we spend it 2xxx we will be able to buy (bye then) cheap raptors for the same price" political-babu interference resulted in neverending MMRCA saga in the first place. (where as all IAF wanted to meet its needs was the Mirages delivered by 2007)

Evidently India believes in the logic -- "If its worth doing well, its worth doing slowly" + "In the long run we will all be dead anyway"

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Jul 2009 15:56

Sanku wrote:
arun wrote: For starters will the Hindu do?:

ALH delay holding up de-induction of old Army copters: CAG report
Well arun, please give everyone here a break. We are very familar with CAG and its method of computing costs for coffins for jawans at the rate of raw aluminum etc. .......................

Sanku,

To clarify, you misunderstand my intent. The issue for me is not about misunderstanding or not misunderstanding CAG’s methods

. It is about the unnecessarily rude tone adopted by a particular postor for which there is no foundation.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 Jul 2009 16:01

arun wrote:To clarify, you misunderstand my intent. The issue for me is not about misunderstanding or not misunderstanding CAG’s methods . It is about the unnecessarily rude tone adopted by a particular postor for which there is no foundation.

Well people are a little touchy about DRDO here on BRF I guess and some more so, hey even I get horrible flak when I defend IA on its tank decisions.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 14 Jul 2009 19:08

In the recent AI09, the LOH model was shown. It looks nice. Hope hal plans to build it. The tail rotor design is different from ALH. Anyone got news updates on this ?? Plz share any pdfs if you have.

Vinito · Post by **Vinito** » 14 Jul 2009 21:14

Why can we not explore the NOTAR concept in the ALH. It will improve the survivability even further now that we have removed the tail rotor.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 14 Jul 2009 23:44

arun wrote:For starters will the Hindu do?:

ALH delay holding up de-induction of old Army copters: CAG report

I am confused. Weren't ALH supposed to bought from abroad to replace Chetak and Cheetahs?

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/eur ... ract-0725/

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10183

Is MOD blaming DRDO for failures of its procurement department?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Jul 2009 00:06

ALH is the Dhruv, developed by HAL.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 15 Jul 2009 00:18

RaviBg wrote:ALH is the Dhruv, developed by HAL.

The articles above state that helicopter tender XYZ (don't get confused by name) will replace Cheetaks and Cheetahs including ones which fly to Siachen.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 15 Jul 2009 01:20

Here is an interesting 6.5 minute Dhruv/ALH video marketing material from couple of years ago.

http://www.warbirdsofindia.com/guest/Dh ... 0Dhruv.mpg

Enjoy.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Jul 2009 01:42

abhiti wrote:
RaviBg wrote:ALH is the Dhruv, developed by HAL.
The articles above state that helicopter tender XYZ (don't get confused by name) will replace Cheetaks and Cheetahs including ones which fly to Siachen.

IA is looking at replacing Chetak and Cheetah with a mixture of light helicopters ( less than 5 ton capacity) and medium capacity helicopters ( ALH 5 ton category). It is the 5-ton helicopter issue that the CAG is talking about. And the Hindu report linked by arun is pretty clear on which helicopter is being talked about. No confusion there.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 15 Jul 2009 01:55

RaviBg wrote:And the Hindu report linked by arun is pretty clear on which helicopter is being talked about. No confusion there.

I have read it again and I still don't know what it is talking about. It does not even mention that the de-induction of majority of the fleet of Cheetah and Chetak is held up due to procurement woes.

"The delay in the supply of Advanced Light Helicopters by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to the Army has resulted in delay in the de-induction of old fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters that could impact its operational preparedness, the Comptroller and Auditor General of India noted on Friday."

"Pretty clear" will also define what other 5 ton helicopter can do what MOD is asking Dhruv to do.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Jul 2009 02:00

What is there to be confused about? The report is pretty clear. It talks about ALH(Dhruv). That is the one which was supposed to get Shakti engine. Why are you getting confused with some other report??

NEW DELHI: The delay in the supply of Advanced Light Helicopters by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to the Army has resulted in delay in the de-induction of old fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters that could impact its operational preparedness, the Comptroller and Auditor General of India noted on Friday.

In its latest report tabled in Parliament, the CAG said the Army had given HAL a Rs. 1,747 crore contract for 40 ALH which were being inducted with technological gaps. The induction of another 105 ALH valued at Rs. 9,490 crore with ``Shakti” engine had been unduly delayed.

It said the government approved the project in 1984 for design and development of ALH by HAL in collaboration with M/s Turbomeca, France, based on Qualitative Requirements (QRs) of the Air Force. The project was completed in June 2001 at a cost of Rs. 2,488 crore of which the Army’s share was Rs. 809 crore.

In September 1995, the Army projected a requirement of 99 helicopters to be inducted by 2007 which was later scaled down to 40. The ALH was not able to fly above 5000 metres, though the Army’s requirement stipulated up to 6,500 metres. The deficiency was on account of the B2 engines and its vibration level was not within the acceptable limits. Despite the shortcomings, four ALHs were accepted by the Army and an order for eight more was placed to sustain the production lines of HAL. The Defence Minister provided a one-time waiver for ALH not meeting the QRs following assurances by HAL to identify a more powerful engine for B2 while trying to improve its performance and reduce the basic empty weight of the helicopter from 2,250 kg to 2,450 kg.

In December 2007, the Ministry finalised another three contracts with HAL for procurement of 105 ALHs, which were to be fitted with newly developed Shakti engine.

“Army Aviation (Maintenance Advisory Group) at HAL Bangalore stated in September 2008 that Shakti engine under development had deficiency in power and necessary improvements were underway. Therefore, it is not yet certain whether another 105 ALH ordered in December 2007 would be devoid of shortcomings and meet the Army’s requirement”, the report said.

The report does mention how many ALHs were ordered and that the shakti versions too had some defeciencies. What are you getting confused about?

The links that you posted are for lower weight category helicopters, for which tenders are yet to be called. And whoever wins that will have to give ToT to HAL so that around 70% of it is built by HAL.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 15 Jul 2009 02:05

RaviBg wrote:The report does mention how many ALHs were ordered and that the shakti versions too had some defeciencies. What are you getting confused about?

The links that you posted are for lower weight category helicopters, for which tenders are yet to be called. And whoever wins that will have to give ToT to HAL so that around 70% of it is built by HAL.

Could you tell me by reading this report or any other report as to how many of Cheetah and Chetak were supposed to be "replaced" by Dhruv and how many by light helicopters?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Jul 2009 02:10

The article clearly mentions that an order of 105 ALH was placed with HAL. I was responding to your earlier post stating that CAG report was confusing. Of the 105, the army hasn't given a breakdown of how many chetaks and cheetahs it will replace. It might be for replacing 105 of them, or it might replace a smaller number of them, and the rest for augmenting capacity.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 15 Jul 2009 02:32

RaviBg wrote:Of the 105, the army hasn't given a breakdown of how many chetaks and cheetahs it will replace. It might be for replacing 105 of them, or it might replace a smaller number of them, and the rest for augmenting capacity.

Right so you now know what is confusing (not clear). Just wanted to point it out as we had folks cursing DRDO not realizing that article "by mistake" (of course) forgot to mention that in comparison army's super duper efficient procurement department has so far delivered ZERO helicopters.