Should we discontinue EVMs?

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Sanku
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sanku » 14 Jul 2009 17:28

I was actually begining to spend some cycles on thinking whether EVMs could be rigged, and then I realized that shri RMjee has been making his presence felt here.

Pranav et al... If Dileep says its not likely, I would kind of go with that you know. :wink:

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 14 Jul 2009 18:19

You can theoretically beat ANY system. The order of difficulty is the deterrent.

The binaries are programmed once, but can be verified any time using JTAG. I am sure the manufacturer (BEL and ECIL) would be doing it more than once. So, the argument of "giving the compromised binary to the mfr" is moot. Unless of course the whole BEL/ECIL system is corrupt. Then again, it involves too many people, so leaks happen.

The ONLY possible way to have a compromised binary is to manufacture the whole unit, as exact replica of the original. You need to get the PCBs done (with BEL logo etched, no less), buy the chips (where you can buy the OTPs coded, so that the mfr will sell only on BEL's authorization) get them soldered, get the metal boxes tooled, then the metal stamped and painted, get the plastics tooled and moulded, in all making 300,000 pieces.

All in perfect secrecy!!

I have a proposal to put this charade of utter stupidity to rest. Let an IIT team design a mechanical robot that can punch the buttons 1000 times each. Let each of the machines be put under that robot and let it punch votes to all candidates 1000 times, and then see if each candidate got 1000 votes.

Or if RMji is willing, and remembering the allegation that he is in fact, an android, he can punch the buttons in front of a video camera.

I know, I know, now you will say CIA has anticipated this test, and will not do the fraud if the votes are cast equally.

Raju

Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raju » 14 Jul 2009 18:56

In all this desoldering and resoldering, people are forgetting the totalizer software. This has been introduced for the first time in these elections.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 14 Jul 2009 19:42

Rahul Mehta: Replacing the ballot boxes with ballot papers from 1500 booths would need 2-5 people per booth, i.e. 4500 criminals per constituency. Also, the ballot boxes for ballot paper are not shipped from CEC warehouse, but are manufactured locally at District/Tahsil level. Also, how would one know how many ballot papers to put in each box? No one knows voting % at each booth in advance. So replacing ballot boxes can be done only AFTER election, and not before. And this would require someone to run a huge printing press as well as ground staff to break into rooms. So this too would need 1000-2000 goons per constituency.

Dileep: No. If you can replace the machines, you can replace the boxes AFTER the poll. Same number of people to me compromised.


Dileep,

In the rigging mechanism I suggested, the EVMs are replaced BEFORE polling, right before they are dispatched to the Constituency.

Let me tell you the exact steps how EVMs are shipped today

1. Say polling in a Constituency is on April-30.

2. Then District Collector gives serial number to candidates on April-15th

3. Some 1500 EVMs and Control Units are shipped from warehouse to District Collector on April-18th, i.e. after candidate numbers are given. Say Congress is no. 4

So my claim is : at the warehouse, on 16th April CIA guys will replace 1500 good EVMs with 1500 pre-rigged EVMs which favor candidate no. 4.

Now in most cases, Congress candidate will be no. 1 to no 4, not below that. The reason is that recognized parties get top ranking spots. So CIA will keep say 100,000 EVMs which favor candidate no. 1, some 100,000 EVMs which favor no. 2 and so forth.

Now say poll is on April-30 and so EVM shipping date is 18th. Say 1500 EVMs are to go to constituency-A where Congress is no.2 . Then CIA guy, who has support of Chawala, will replace these 1500 EVMs with EVMs that favor candidate no. 2. And say 1500 EVMs are to go to constituency-B where Congress is no. 3. The CIA will replace these 1500 with EVMs that favor candidate no. 3.

Say one carton has 20 EVMs. So to replace 1500 EVMs, CIA guy needs to replace some 75 carton. How much time does it take to replace 75 cartons of real EVMs with 75 cartons of EVMs rigged in favor of candidate no. 2? Not even 1 hour, assuming that top IAS in CEC are co-operating with the CIA guys at the warehouse.

----

So please note - in the replacement scheme I suggest,

1. the EVMs are replaced by rigged EVMs somewhere between date when candidate numbers are decided and EVMs are shipped.

2. All this needs just a few guys at warehouse which is under Chawala and few top IAS of CEC.

3. EVMs are not opened and rigged

---

Now tell me, in case of paper ballots, how will you replace the ballot boxes with actual ballot boxes after poll is over, in 200 Constituencies, with just say 100-200 guys in India, even if top few IAS of CEC are bribed out?
Last edited by Rahul Mehta on 14 Jul 2009 20:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 14 Jul 2009 19:55

Raju wrote:In all this desoldering and resoldering, people are forgetting the totalizer software. This has been introduced for the first time in these elections.


How does totalizer work? There arent much details about it anywhere. Isn't it just a glorified calculator that adds up the outputs of EVMs?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 14 Jul 2009 20:01

Tanaji wrote:Yes, but doesnt this mean that anyone trying to write a program that adds every 5th vote to a particular candidate has to know how many candidates there are and the key assignment, For example if there are 5 candidates in the constituency, assigned to first 5 buttons, my hacked firmware has to know that votes must be reduced from buttons 2, 3, 4 and 5 and added to tally of button 1. You many not need to know exact key assignment but surely the number of candidates is required. Which means a lot of hacked "versions" of the firmware, 543 in the worst case.


Tanaji,

EVMs are shipped from CEC warehouse to District Headquarter after candidate numbers are allocated.

And in 95% cases, Congress guy will be no.1 to no. 5, not below that.

So to rig 200 constituency, I need 400*1500 pre rigged EVMs as follows :

I will keep 80*1500 EVMs rigged in favor of candidate no. 1 : call it set-1

I will keep 80*1500 EVMs rigged in favor of candidate no. 2 : call it set-2

I will keep 80*1500 EVMs rigged in favor of candidate no. 3 : call it set-3

I will keep 80*1500 EVMs rigged in favor of candidate no. 4 : call it set-4

I will keep 80*1500 EVMs rigged in favor of candidate no. 5 : call it set-5

And in place where congress is candidate no. 1, I will ship 1500 EVMs from set-1

And in place where congress is candidate no. 2, I will ship 1500 EVMs from set-2 etc etc

So I am not manufacturing rigged EVMs at last moment. I already have rigged EVMs, and I am only replacing cartons at last moment.

Can you show how this is NOT do-able? Are you saying that CIA is not capable of manufacturing rigged 400*1500 EVMs in advance? Are you saying that carton replacement is impossible for 1 person in 2-3 hours? Or do you believe that CIA is not capable of bribing out Chawala?

------

The BU is keyed to the CU. It doesnt work otherwise. I suppose even the actual code numbers that BU uses are given out by evil evil Chawla eh?


It is not difficult to get the list of keys inside EVMs. And even replacing entire carton of EVM + CU is not impossible , if Chawala decided to co-operates.

Either you replace the whole BU/CU combo, or you replace the chip. IF you want to replace the combo then you need to get the whole thing manufactured from somewhere. How do you propose getting this done for 1.36M sets? How do you propose that you ensure the correct firmware goes to the right constituency? One EVM costs 5500 Rs. Lets say Rs. 3500 since it includes a battery and we can have multiple BUs to a CU. 1.36M * 3500 = 4.76 Billion Rs. = 476 crore Rs. I know politicians are crazy rich, but this is not chump change either. Do you think a foundry/integrator in China is going to accept Rupees? How do you think the money will be transferred... Yes, the standard answer is Swiss banks, but its not a trivial affair...


Tanaji,

For CIA, it is child's play to get 700,000 CUs or 1500,000 EVMs or both getting manufactured.

If 100-200 seats can be tilted, Rs 500 cr is peanuts. Do you know how much money LKA spent in Gandhinagar? On the very last day, some Rs 10 cr changed hands. And total expense was above Rs 50 cr. Even though this was a sure seat, margin of over 100,000 votes. Average seat in Gujarat was Rs 20 cr each party and in states like AP, it was Rs 25 cr for each the FOUR parties. So Rs 500 cr for 100-200 seats is peanuts.

And CIA has dollars needed to manufacture dummy EVMs right in US. They wont go to China to save costs.

The ONLY barrier to CIA is : to rig 700,000 booths, they cant have 14,00,000 guys all over India. But with EVMs, they need only 100 of their agents in CEC warehouse and support of Chawala and Company aka CEC top brass. They are capable of bribing 10-20 guys.

Paper ballots make it impossible for CIA to rig 700,000 ballot boxes.

Raju

Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raju » 14 Jul 2009 20:07

my question is are they outsourcing the 'servicing' of this totalizer software also ?
also they are accessing EVMs via a cable and not just soldering and resoldering.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/ec-te ... cr/428728/
EC tests ‘Totalizer’ for total EVM vote secrecy

The Bhadohi Assembly bypoll in UP, where voting took place today, is being used by the Election Commission to test a new machine called Totalizer to ensure secrecy of votes. Since electronic voting machines provide no scope for mixing of votes, candidates gets to know the number of votes polled at a particular booth — this at times leads to victimization of voters. But the Totalizer, developed by the Bharat Electronics Ltd and Electronics Corporation of India Ltd, is connected to EVMs through a cable and votes registered in all machines are counted together.


http://www.thehindu.com/2008/12/04/stor ... 371100.htm
Election Commission shows totalizer to political parties
Special Correspondent
Move to avoid intimidation and victimisation of electors

New Delhi: The Election Commission on Wednesday held a meeting with recognised political parties on the use of totalizer machines for counting of votes by mixing. At present, votes are counted polling station-wise — revealing the votes polled by each candidate.

“In order to avoid the possibility of any intimidation and victimisation of electors, the Commission has proposed to use the totalizer machine in specified constituencies, and is of the opinion that it is absolutely necessary that votes recorded in EVMs should be mixed before counting,” says a release.

When elections were held using the ballot paper, the papers were mixed wherever it was considered necessary as provided under Rule 59A of Conduct of Election Rules, 1961.

After the introduction of EVMs, there was no scope for such mixing of votes.

The Commission proposes such mixing of votes wherever necessary.

EVM makers approached


For this purpose, the EVM manufacturers — Bharat Electronics Limited and Electronics Corporation of India Limited — were asked to design a totalizer machine and an experts committee, consisting of P.V. Indiresan, D.T. Sahani and A.K. Aggarwal, provided necessary guidelines to them.

A demonstration of the totalizer was made at the Wednesday meeting.

The Commission has moved the Ministry of Law and Justice, Legislative Department for necessary amendments to the Conduct of Election Rules, 1961 to provide for use of totalizers, according to the release.


& why has EC suddenly bypassed Gujarat for the 'totalizer touch'

http://www.newkerala.com/nkfullnews-1-38147.html
No use of totalizer machine for vote counting in Gujarat

Gandhinagar, May 14 : The Election Commission has ruled out the use of totalizer machine for counting of votes polled in the Lok Sabha elections in Gujarat, on May 16.

''The EC has considered the proposal to use totalizer machine during the counting of votes and steps have also been taken by the EC to make appropriate amendments in election laws to pave the way for its use. However, I don't think we are going to use it this time,'' the state's Additional Chief Electoral Officer, T Natarajan told UNI here today.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 14 Jul 2009 20:10

Raju wrote:In all this desoldering and resoldering, people are forgetting the totalizer software. This has been introduced for the first time in these elections.


Raju,

what is this?

Pardon me for asking, being an ex-candidate myself, I should know better. But I was so much involved in campaigning for the laws I have proposed, that I myself did not go to counting station, nor did I ask any of my volunteers to go there. Also, I was busy with my business of software development, that I could not have gone to counting station even if I wanted to.

What is this totalizer?

Tanaji,

Have you personally seen the code of Totalizer? How do you know that it does the sums honestly? Did you write the code yourself? And even if you yourself wrote the code, how do you know that the SAME code you wrote was not later replaced by CIA or ABC in the machines which went to 540 counting stations?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 14 Jul 2009 20:16

Dileep wrote:The ONLY possible way to have a compromised binary is to manufacture the whole unit, as exact replica of the original. You need to get the PCBs done (with BEL logo etched, no less), buy the chips (where you can buy the OTPs coded, so that the mfr will sell only on BEL's authorization) get them soldered, get the metal boxes tooled, then the metal stamped and painted, get the plastics tooled and moulded, in all making 300,000 pieces.


To make EXACT copy of 1400,000 EVMs and 700,000 CUs is child's play for CIA. They will make it in US and ship it to India at CEC warehouse just 2-3 days before dispatch from warehouse to Collector's office were to happen. Of course, I am assuming that top CEC officials are on CIA payroll. Without them, it cant happen.

I have a proposal to put this charade of utter stupidity to rest. Let an IIT team design a mechanical robot that can punch the buttons 1000 times each. Let each of the machines be put under that robot and let it punch votes to all candidates 1000 times, and then see if each candidate got 1000 votes.


The rigged machines were replaced by original unrigged machines after counting was over. So now you will be testing unrigged machines. What good would that do?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2009 20:18

Rahul Mehta wrote:So I am not manufacturing rigged EVMs at last moment. I already have rigged EVMs, and I am only replacing cartons at last moment.

Can you show how this is NOT do-able? Are you saying that CIA is not capable of manufacturing rigged 400*1500 EVMs in advance? Are you saying that carton replacement is impossible for 1 person in 2-3 hours? Or do you believe that CIA is not capable of bribing out Chawala?


RMji - if you say so I am sure all that is feasible, but i think you live in India and India is ruled by the elitemen. If Congress does all this with CIA help - I thank god that he has made this possible. Congress getting elected with CIA help is not a problem for me.

My problem is how to get elected as President of Cosmopolitan club in Bangalore. We will be using the same EVMs used by the election commission and I stand to make a crore or two by getting elected. My problem is that the same EVMs were used in Bangalore club and my candidate lost. We protested and got two independent auditors to check them and both certified the machines. We were ready to bribe them also, but still..

Now if somebody is rigging 11 million EVMs there must be more than one person doing it. Yaar even counting from 1 to 1 million at 1 number per second takes 11 days - without food, breathing or pissing - what to talk of 11 million?

I am sure there must be hundreds of people involved in rigging. I need to rig exactly 5 machines. Please tell me where these clever people are. I am willing to pay up to 10 lakhs per person for rigging the machines.

Show me one person. I am the fellow who easily got question papers while doing my studies by paying just a few hundred - sometimes even free. I know costs have gone up. Postgraduate medical papers in Karnataka cost 10 lakhs.

But I need just one person yaar - just one person. Help me. Don't tell me it is not doable.

Raju

Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raju » 14 Jul 2009 20:26

this link contains detailed information, also about totalizer software which seems to be embedded in a seperate hardware.

http://eci.nic.in/ElectoralLaws/HandBoo ... idates.pdf

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Tanaji » 14 Jul 2009 20:30

I half believed it at first, but I am seriously think now that Rahul Mehta is some CS grad student's idea of a joke. He is an AI bot on the lines of ALICE or something similar. The said grad student is probably laughing his a** off right now reading our comments.

Has anyone met RM in real life? The youtube video doesn't count.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby A Deshmukh » 14 Jul 2009 21:42

shiv wrote:Now if somebody is rigging 11 million EVMs there must be more than one person doing it. Yaar even counting from 1 to 1 million at 1 number per second takes 11 days - without food, breathing or pissing - what to talk of 11 million?


I think this was already discussed on BRF threads, before possible rigging got labeled as conspiracy theorist. If anyone wants to rig elections in India, you have to rig only few borderline constituencies. And that too a few voting booths can make all the difference.

Or rigging the "Totalizer".

Rigging this process looks easier than rigging by ballots.
I am particularly bothered that there is no transparency or double checks.
Paper ballots go thru the counting agents of each party.
EVMs or Totalizer doesn't.

The lack of transparency needs to be addressed.

Raju

Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raju » 14 Jul 2009 21:52

Raju wrote:this link contains detailed information, also about totalizer software which seems to be embedded in a seperate hardware.

http://eci.nic.in/ElectoralLaws/HandBoo ... idates.pdf


pg 232
Q. 22 With ballot boxes counting is done after mixing the ballot papers. Is it
possible to adopt this system when EVMs are used?


Ans. The normal rule is to count the votes polling station-wise and this is what is
being done when EVM is used in each polling station. The mixing system of
counting is done only in those constituencies which are specially notified by
the Election Commission. On such cases, the EVMs used in a number of
polling stations can be connected to the specially designed “Totalizer” and
then the total result of an Assembly Constituency will be known and not the
result in each individual polling station
.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raja Bose » 14 Jul 2009 21:57

shiv wrote:But I need just one person yaar - just one person. Help me. Don't tell me it is not doable.


You sometimes give N^3 a run for his money, don't you :lol: :rotfl:

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raja Bose » 14 Jul 2009 21:57

Tanaji wrote:I half believed it at first, but I am seriously think now that Rahul Mehta is some CS grad student's idea of a joke. He is an AI bot on the lines of ALICE or something similar. The said grad student is probably laughing his a** off right now reading our comments.

Has anyone met RM in real life? The youtube video doesn't count.


In that case I need to meet this CS grad coz he will enable me to finally win the Loebner Prize! :twisted:

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby vera_k » 14 Jul 2009 22:31

PIL in SC to quash Lok Sabha results

In a PIL filed through counsel Nawal K Jha, the five-time Shiv Sena MP Mohan Rawle, who himself lost the polls to Congress candidate Milind Deora from Mumbai south, claimed that the election process in the entire country was vitiated and pleaded that the ballot box system be restored.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 15 Jul 2009 04:11

I am not convinced that EVMs are rigged. Though I outrightly rejected during election time, ( when Pranav and others brought in theories of EVM rigging) it will be interesting to know the whole deal. What is the software that is outsourced? I cannot imagine the Totalizer software needs to be outsourced. What is so big deal in it? I cannot even imagine that it will be more than 1000 lines of code. It got to be the same for all the constituencies.

Is there a picture of this Totalizer somewhere?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Muppalla » 15 Jul 2009 04:14

vera_k wrote:PIL in SC to quash Lok Sabha results

In a PIL filed through counsel Nawal K Jha, the five-time Shiv Sena MP Mohan Rawle, who himself lost the polls to Congress candidate Milind Deora from Mumbai south, claimed that the election process in the entire country was vitiated and pleaded that the ballot box system be restored.


Here are few more:
http://saveindiandemocracy.wordpress.com/
http://saveindiandemocracy.wordpress.com/legal-actions/

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 15 Jul 2009 06:46

AjayKK wrote:^
R_M maybe wrong thread, but iirc, you were talking of a PIL on IRV on which you were to argue.
Any updates on that ?

PS : Plain inquiry. NOM.


AjayKK,

I am taking public opinion plus mass movement route, and not PIL route. I dont support PIL concept, as judges are more corrupt than IAS, Ministers these days.

I will make IRV election issue in coming election.

----

Muppala,

Are you suspecting that EVMs were rigged? Or totalizer was rigged? Then who do you think is the key person or agency behind this rigging of EVM or Totalizer?

.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 07:39

Dileep wrote:You can theoretically beat ANY system. The order of difficulty is the deterrent.

The binaries are programmed once, but can be verified any time using JTAG. I am sure the manufacturer (BEL and ECIL) would be doing it more than once. So, the argument of "giving the compromised binary to the mfr" is moot. Unless of course the whole BEL/ECIL system is corrupt. Then again, it involves too many people, so leaks happen.

The ONLY possible way to have a compromised binary is to manufacture the whole unit, as exact replica of the original. You need to get the PCBs done (with BEL logo etched, no less), buy the chips (where you can buy the OTPs coded, so that the mfr will sell only on BEL's authorization) get them soldered, get the metal boxes tooled, then the metal stamped and painted, get the plastics tooled and moulded, in all making 300,000 pieces.

All in perfect secrecy!!

I have a proposal to put this charade of utter stupidity to rest. Let an IIT team design a mechanical robot that can punch the buttons 1000 times each. Let each of the machines be put under that robot and let it punch votes to all candidates 1000 times, and then see if each candidate got 1000 votes.

Or if RMji is willing, and remembering the allegation that he is in fact, an android, he can punch the buttons in front of a video camera.

I know, I know, now you will say CIA has anticipated this test, and will not do the fraud if the votes are cast equally.


Manufacturers are PSUs under government control. Not hard to appoint the right person in the critical position. You don't need to have a large number of people involved - just one or two people would be enough. And the CEC himself is known to have a dubious background. Maintenance contracts given to Congress companies. So it would be rather naive to trust the system to police itself.

As regards verification by outsiders - it is absolutely not permitted by the EC/government. And even if it were allowed, a detailed check of the software and hardware (having millions of transistors and interconnects) is a very difficult task.

Also, no amount of "mock polling", by robots or otherwise, will detect the fraud.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 08:05

Raju wrote:In all this desoldering and resoldering, people are forgetting the totalizer software. This has been introduced for the first time in these elections.

The votes cast for a candidate on an EVM is read off the EVM and entered into a form. So, there is a paper trail after that. The totalizer software then is not part of the EVM system. Hence that is OT.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 08:11

Rahul Mehta wrote:The rigged machines were replaced by original unrigged machines after counting was over. So now you will be testing unrigged machines. What good would that do?


You can't do that. The EVMS retain the results till they are cleared for the next election. It is a mandatory requirement to retain them for an year IIRC.

So, your "rigged" machines should stay in the warehouse.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby shiv » 15 Jul 2009 08:29

Pranav wrote: Not hard to appoint the right person in the critical position. You don't need to have a large number of people involved - just one or two people would be enough.


I need one of these people Pranav. For me it is a matter of life and death. How much do you want? 5 Lakhs? Ten Lakhs? I will pay. Half in advance. Balance on making contact with this person. I just need to win the club elections. We are using the same goddam riggable EVMs. I can even promie a regular income from other club/private body elections that we can rig. A man with such skills must not go without income till the next election. No Indian can have so much integrity that he earns money only by serving the government.

Please email me on bennedose at hotmail dawt com

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby pgbhat » 15 Jul 2009 09:08

shiv wrote:I need one of these people Pranav. For me it is a matter of life and death. How much do you want? 5 Lakhs? Ten Lakhs? I will pay. Half in advance. Balance on making contact with this person. I just need to win the club elections. We are using the same goddam riggable EVMs. I can even promie a regular income from other club/private body elections that we can rig. A man with such skills must not go without income till the next election. No Indian can have so much integrity that he earns money only by serving the government.

Please email me on bennedose at hotmail dawt com


:rotfl: :rotfl: Shiv-saar leave them alone will you...

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 09:50

Five lakhs, ten lakhs? Peanuts. Can't buy for money - you need interlocking relationships with media owners, Judiciary, foreign intelligence agencies, terrorist groups, religious and leftist organizations, top functionaries in the bureaucracy and Central Banks, think tanks, and yes - many, many billions of dollars. Each cog in the system operating on a need-to-know basis. Taking over countries does not come cheap. If you have all that, I can get the EVMs rigged for you. Give me a call.

shiv wrote:
Pranav wrote: Not hard to appoint the right person in the critical position. You don't need to have a large number of people involved - just one or two people would be enough.


I need one of these people Pranav. For me it is a matter of life and death. How much do you want? 5 Lakhs? Ten Lakhs? I will pay. Half in advance. Balance on making contact with this person. I just need to win the club elections. We are using the same goddam riggable EVMs. I can even promie a regular income from other club/private body elections that we can rig. A man with such skills must not go without income till the next election. No Indian can have so much integrity that he earns money only by serving the government.

Please email me on bennedose at hotmail dawt com

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 10:09

A new article by the redoubtable Rajinder Puri from the Outlook magazine website. However, not suitable for "sensible" people like Dileep or Shiv Saar.



-----------------------------------------------------------------
The Conspiracy Of Silence
http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodnam ... puri&sid=1

The death of Subhash Bose was only the first among a series of mysterious deaths of national leaders that created dramatic change in politics. Inconvenient questions raised about the deaths are rubbished as conspiracy theories. In truth, there is only one monstrous conspiracy.

RAJINDER PURI

Recently a query to the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) availing the Right to Information (RTI) Act by Mr Anuj Dhar about a secret document related to the unexplained death of the late Lal Bahadur Shastri drew a blank. Mr Dhar, an author, along with a group, runs the endtosecrecy.com website. The PMO did not deny the existence of the secret document. It refused to release it on the plea that it could harm foreign relations, provoke disruption in the country and cause breach of parliamentary privilege. In other words it could expose the government's lies spoken in parliament relating to Shastri's death. The Soviet Union has ceased to exist. Which foreign relations could be harmed?

The circumstances surrounding Shastri's death in Tashkent created national controversy. Shastri was a heart patient. His widow, Lalita Shastri, had alleged that he was poisoned. After sipping some water at midnight brought by a staffer he became unconscious and died. There already was a flask of water kept by his table. The Soviet government arrested the Russian butler attending him on suspicion of poisoning but later absolved him. Shastri's meals were prepared by Indian Ambassador TN Kaul's personal cook. No post-mortem of the death was conducted in the Soviet Union. Questions were raised in parliament by several opposition leaders including Ram Manohar Lohia, but the government continued to stonewall. After Shastri's death there was widespread expectation that Defence Minister YB Chavan would succeed him. Surprisingly, Indira Gandhi, a fledgling Information and Broadcasting Minister, became the PM.

During Indira Gandhi's 15 years of turbulent rule, the Bangladesh war occurred, the sell-out in the Simla Summit was enacted, the LTTE was created, the fraudulent Emergency was imposed and Operation Blue Star against the Golden Temple was launched. Near the end of her tenure, her younger son Sanjay acquired a dominant role. He too died in a mysterious plane crash. The mandatory judicial inquiry into the crash by the Commission led by Justice ML Jain was aborted under orders of Indira Gandhi. The crash was not allowed to be investigated. Her elder son, Rajiv, entered politics and took Sanjay's place.

Later, Indira Gandhi was shot dead by her Sikh guard. Her assassin was shot dead in cold blood around forty minutes after he had laid down his weapon and surrendered. No inquiry was lodged about who gave the order to murder him. No action was taken against the killing which silenced the assassin. Justice Thakkar who probed the event concluded that a separate Commission of Inquiry be appointed to investigate the conspiracy behind the assassination. He wrote that "the needle of suspicion" pointed against RK Dhawan who was Indira Gandhi's aide and who stood closest to her when she died.

To achieve closure of the case, an inquiry into the conspiracy was conducted. Kehar Singh was found guilty of conspiring to kill the PM although there was not a shred of evidence against him. Ram Jethmalani who defended Kehar Singh requested me to write an article exposing the scandalous judgment. I did write an article on the subject in The Indian Express. Later, in an unprecedented move the Supreme Court, tortured by pangs of guilty conscience perhaps, wrote to the President advising him to virtually ignore its judgment and exercise his prerogative to pardon Kehar Singh. That was not done. Kehar Singh, an innocent man, was allowed to hang in order to achieve closure of the case.

Immediately after Indira's assassination the general election was due.During the poll Doordarshan repeatedly telecast the scene of Indira's dead body surrounded by her party supporters chanting "Blood in reply to blood! [Khoon kaa badlaa Khoon]" The mass hysteria helped novice Rajiv Gandhi win the largest parliamentary majority in the history of India, far exceeding what his mother or grandfather ever obtained.

Later, Rajiv Gandhi was also assassinated. His death too had unexplained mysteries. It has yet not been explained by which conduits the LTTE suicide bomber succeeded in penetrating Congress circles to commit the murder. The suicide bomber was the tenant in a house owned by a Congress leader and was accompanied to the scene of the crime by the Congress leader's daughter.

The death of Subhash Bose therefore was only the first among a series of mysterious deaths of national leaders that created dramatic change in politics. Inconvenient questions raised about the deaths are rubbished as conspiracy theories. In truth, there is only one monstrous conspiracy in which the politicians, the judiciary, the bureaucracy and the media -- in fact members of the entire corrupt and contemptible ruling class -- are involved. And that is the conspiracy of silence. It has allowed the full truth to be buried without relevant questions being satisfactorily explained.

The full truth about a host of scandals -- including Bofors case, Jain Hawala case, HDW Submarines case, Babri Masjid demolition case, Volker case -- has never come out. The full truth about the damaging allegation, made by a member of the Soviet Commission that probed the KGB, against Sonia Gandhi's family, naming her mother and son, of receiving KGB funds has never been contested either by the government or by the Congress party. The payments were allegedly made since 1971 when Rahul would have been just one year old. An official spokesman of the Russian government confirmed the veracity of the disclosure and defended it as necessary for "Soviet ideological interest". The Hindu of July 4, 1992 published this report. But the Indian government remains silent. So we will never know the whole truth. To change this state of affairs should not the government for a start declassify every archival document after 30 years have elapsed? Otherwise nothing will change. We will always co-exist with half-truth.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul Mehta » 15 Jul 2009 10:28

Shiv,

Number of EVMs are 1.4 million, not 11 million.

In electronics, design costs are high and scale of economy applies.

So you cant get one rigged EVM which looks exactly like non-rigged EVM for Rs 500,000 .

But you can get 500,000 rigged EVMs for Rs 500 cr.

----

Still you can try following'

1. You try to get a manufacturer in Bangalore who can give you a rigged EVM which looks just like actual EVM. Costs will be too high - plastic mold alone will cost you Rs 500,000 and PCD design another Rs 500,000

2. Program the rigged EVM to give to 10% more votes than opponent

3. Replace the rigged EVM with real one just one day before election. For this , you only need to bribe the local chowkidaar. Give him Rs 5000 and he will do it. And if they are in lock and key, you need a good locksmith or bribe the person who has key.

4. After election, put original EVM back.

.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 10:38

not suitable for "sensible" people like Dileep or Shiv Saar.

I am sensible to the extent of people who have no clue on how electronic equipment work, creating scenarios and passing judgement. I did not, and will not, argue on the corruption of the people and other problems. But as a person who make a living by designing, programming and manufacturing electronic equipment, I call stupidity when I see it.

I don't know your background, Pranav, but the following statement shows that you have no clue how an embedded system work

And even if it were allowed, a detailed check of the software and hardware (having millions of transistors and interconnects) is a very difficult task.


Also, no amount of "mock polling", by robots or otherwise, will detect the fraud.

Back up that please. From the start of this thread, the ONLY standing argument is Rahul Mehta's "CIA replaced EVMs" line. It is standing because he is impervious to logic. His argument of the compromised EVMs being swapped back doesn't hold, because the EVMs are required to retain the poll results indefinitely till cleared, and clearing happens only at the time of the next use.

So, you can easily take a set of EVMs from stock, set up a poll, and use a mechanical robot to press buttons.

How can that not verify the machine. Please explain.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 10:39

Rahul Mehta wrote:4. After election, put original EVM back.


That is not possible. The EVMs are required to retain the votes, and they can be checked.

Oops, I forgot. In Rahul Mehta universe, everyone is corrupt, so no one is going to demand a check, and if demanded, the corrupt judge is going to reject the demand, and if it is accepted, CIA will once again ship the boxes in. Beauuuuutifoooool!!

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 15 Jul 2009 10:49

Dileep wrote:
Also, no amount of "mock polling", by robots or otherwise, will detect the fraud.

Back up that please.


If the "rigging mode" is triggered by a specific combination of keys, you will not be able to reproduce that behavior unless you know that combination. (For example, one could set things up so that in order to rig in favour of candidate assigned to key x, first press keys 1 and 7 simultaneously, and then press key x.) This is apart from any vulnerabilities introduced by the totaliser mechanism.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 10:56

The handbook page 127 says:

As a general policy, the Commission desires that all EVMs available within a district shall be stored at the district headquarters under the direct control of the District Election Officer. It may be possible that due to want of storage space the EVMs may be stored in a decentralized manner in different locations. Even in such cases, for the purpose of first level checking and randomization procedure, all EVMs available in the district shall be brought to the district headquarters under proper escort.


That negates RM's argument that the EVMS are centrally stored by the EC. CIA need to bribe each and every district election officers. Doable, given the all-might of CIA.

Then the machines are checked by an engineer team of BEL, and a serial number is allocated. So, CIA need to put their engineers to do that. The machines are then randomized between the constituencies under the DEO. CIA need to hack into the computer for the random number to appear random, but send the corrupt EVM to the right constituency.

Very easy onlee..

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raja Bose » 15 Jul 2009 11:26

This thread has become more interesting than BENIS ever was! Seriously!! :mrgreen:

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 11:42

If the "rigging mode" is triggered by a specific combination of keys, you will not be able to reproduce that behavior unless you know that combination. (For example, one could set things up so that in order to rig in favour of candidate assigned to key x, first press keys 1 and 7 simultaneously, and then press key x.) This is apart from any vulnerabilities introduced by the totaliser mechanism.


That needs at least one person per booth to know the secret. He should be either a voter, or the presiding officer of the booth, because those are the only persons who access the machine. Presiding officers can be eliminated, because they are from the lower rungs of babudom or teachers, who are heavily unionized. Trying to bribe them, or trying to shove "our guys" in is going to make a scandal. That leaves a voter. You need to find a reasonable intelligent guy, who is dead loyal to the party. The communist party here might get some, but the chances of congress getting them is next to zero.

That goes against RMji's "ship the machine and get them back" argument too. Do you honestly think such an operation can be kept under wraps in this age?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby p_saggu » 15 Jul 2009 11:43

Sorry to join in late.

Are their an equal number of EVM's as their are voting booths? Are any EVM's reused during an election, after their data has been dumped onto a secure storage device?

It is surely possible to rig the system, which system can't be rigged. However it seems unlikely there is a conspiracy so demonic and all-encompassing that the national elections of India could have been totally rigged.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 11:56

Saggu, EVMS are not re-used immediately. One EVM per booth, and an extra percentage of reserve machines are allocated to a constituency, randomized from storage. If a machine fails at a booth, a reserve machine is immediately delivered and poll continued. The votes cast till the fail will still be available in the machine.

After voting they are sealed and sent to the strong room. After counting, they are sent back to the storage under the District Election Officer. They can't be reused for an year IIRC. Even after that, they are cleared only at the time of preparation for the next election. A court can order inspection or re-count of the machines.

Of course they can be rigged. Currency can be counterfeited, banks can be robbed, important people can be assassinated, new-clear weapons can be stolen, I could date Asin Thottumkal. All possible onlee.

Raju

Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raju » 15 Jul 2009 12:07

Dileep wrote:
Raju wrote:In all this desoldering and resoldering, people are forgetting the totalizer software. This has been introduced for the first time in these elections.

The votes cast for a candidate on an EVM is read off the EVM and entered into a form. So, there is a paper trail after that. The totalizer software then is not part of the EVM system. Hence that is OT.


EVM's are connected to totalizer via cable and their votes and counted there.
There is no paper trail wherever totalizers are used.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 12:15

EVMS with totalizer were used in one constituency on an experimental basis. How can that bring on CIA engineered congress victory?

Even with totalizer, it is possible to audit the individual EVMS after the counting. A paper trail is needed when the information can't be obtained. With totalizer, you still have the poll data in the EVM, and it still can be retrieved if needed.

Raju

Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Raju » 15 Jul 2009 12:26

As far as we know, EVM totalizers were not used in Gujarat and that's it.

In absence of reliable information, it is to be presumed they were used everywhere else especially in the six states of Tamil Nadu, Delhi, Uttar Pradesh, Andhra Pradesh, Haryana, Rajasthan.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2009 13:03

The current rule is to count per machine. Read the handbook for the procedure The totalizer is only a proposal, and a test was done at one constituency after the regular counting.

The ECI can't make arbitrary procedures. The vote counting happened as per the established procedure, in the presence of agents. Totalizer was NOT used anywhere.

And what do you mean "reliable information" in this regard?

Here is a newsbit about the test in one constituency

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/the-new-voting-machine-totalizer/429666/

Lucknow The Election Commission tested the Totalizer machine after the counting of votes in the by-election to the Bhadohi Assembly seat got underway.

As the counting was done in the normal process, the machine was used for re-counting the votes after the declaration of results.

“No discrepancy was found in the machine. The machine was used to re-count the polled votes. We got the same figure,” said an official in the office of the Chief Election Officer.

The machine took about four hours to count the votes. “This includes the time wasted due to the fault in the power supply,” he said.

The Commission will examine the inputs gathered in the test. “If everything is satisfactory, the Commission may give the green signal for the use of this machine in the upcoming polls,” the official said.

The use of Totalizer will help ensure secrecy of the pattern of voting in each booth, which is not possible with the EVMs.


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