Indian Army Discussion

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 14 Jul 2009 12:58

SivaVijay wrote:RayC Sir,

How does the army justice system works? is there a mil legal body like the Judge advocate generals corps in the US army, or we have someother system. Is the anything like the IPC that is followed... Thank you in advance....

We have a JAG Branch, but there is a flaw.

They are the prosecutor and the Judge and their Annual Confidential Reprt (promotions) depends upon those who order the Courts of Inquiry and the Court Martials! So, obvioulsy they are biased!

IPC and IEA apply, but then......

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 14 Jul 2009 13:43

Gerard wrote:Denied UN stint, soldiers sue Army

According to this report the avg. salary of an Indian soldier is one-fourth of what UN provides.The way this country treats its soldiers is extremely shameful.A toothless organisation like UN pay more than what Indian govt. pays and mind you the work undertaken by Indian defence forces is much more intensive and dangerous.Unlike UN deployments which focus mainly on peacekeeping Indian soldiers have to be prepared the full spectrum from conventional warfare to counter insurgency.This is sheer injustice.And all this coming from a nation which touts itself as the next superpower.

Infact this is the dichotomy of this country.It promotes itself as the next superpower but behaves like a banana republic when it comes down to its Armed forces.It talks of the second highest economic growth in the world but its conduct matches that of a beggar.

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 14 Jul 2009 15:09

^^^
To put things in perspective, In TN primary school teachers recruited last week are being paid Rs.18,000, that's higher than what is paid for a inspector in TN police, why? vote banks...what else.....

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 14 Jul 2009 16:09

darshhan wrote:According to this report the avg. salary of an Indian soldier is one-fourth of what UN provides.The way this country treats its soldiers is extremely shameful.A toothless organisation like UN pay more than what Indian govt. pays and mind you the work undertaken by Indian defence forces is much more intensive and dangerous.

I feel the report does not mention some important aspects.
1. The rule that says "no-two UN postings for a soldier", what was the rationale behind that? A UN posting is considered as a good perk for the soldier (and even a battalion), because of the fat UN pay he gets. So is this rule brought in to get a level playing field for the soldiers? I mean, UN postings should not be given to the same chap again and again, and every soldier should get an equal oppurtunity. Remember in this incident, the soldiers who are un-happy are folks who had got an earlier stint.
2. If soldiers start going to the courts in matters of their regular postings, I feel it would be all hell broken lose. Today the soldiers went to court because they felt their chance for some extra pay was denied. Tomorrow the same soldiers can goto the court stating that their location of posting (for eg: J&K) is not really suited for them.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 14 Jul 2009 17:18

Can anyone tell me what is the avg salary of our armed forces(both officers and other ranks).If you have data on the salary structure of other security forces(eg. CRPF,BSF,State police) please produce that as well.

You can also simplify your answer.I am not interested in terms like Basic pay,DA,TA etc.What I want to know is how much a member of our armed forces/security forces take home after paying their taxes.What is the avg amount?

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 14 Jul 2009 17:54

darshhan wrote:Can anyone tell me what is the avg salary of our armed forces(both officers and other ranks).If you have data on the salary structure of other security forces(eg. CRPF,BSF,State police) please produce that as well.

You can also simplify your answer.I am not interested in terms like Basic pay,DA,TA etc.What I want to know is how much a member of our armed forces/security forces take home after paying their taxes.What is the avg amount?

rough ball park figures would be..
Sepoy - 10000
Naik - 12000
Havildar - 16000
Naib Subedar - 21000*
Subedar - 24000*
Subedar Major - 28000*
Lieutenant - 36000
Captain - 42000
Major - 48000
Lieutenant Colonel - 60000
Colonel - 65000
Brigadier and Above -I don't bother

above would incl basic+ +gp + da + msp - taxes* at the middle of the service bracket in the given rank

allowances other than da and compensation extra.

*statutory disclaimer - rough figures out of general knowledge only.

*

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 15 Jul 2009 08:30

darshhan wrote:
Gerard wrote:Denied UN stint, soldiers sue Army
According to this report the avg. salary of an Indian soldier is one-fourth of what UN provides.The way this country treats its soldiers is extremely shameful.A toothless organisation like UN pay more than what Indian govt. pays and mind you the work undertaken by Indian defence forces is much more intensive and dangerous.Unlike UN deployments which focus mainly on peacekeeping Indian soldiers have to be prepared the full spectrum from conventional warfare to counter insurgency.This is sheer injustice.And all this coming from a nation which touts itself as the next superpower.

Infact this is the dichotomy of this country.It promotes itself as the next superpower but behaves like a banana republic when it comes down to its Armed forces.It talks of the second highest economic growth in the world but its conduct matches that of a beggar.

The question of "low pay" is quite relative. As a comparative example,

entry level salary of a soldier in the US Army is about USd 28k pa.

Entry level salary of an Indian Soldier is about 1.44 lac pa, or about USD 3k. (as per most calculations done post the 6th CPC)..

So the US soldier is paid about 10 times the salary of the Indian soldier. However, in comparative terms, per capita income of US in nominal USD terms is about 45 times India's per capita income.! the situation is even more skewed if one takes the numbers on PPP basis (something a lot of people put more credence on compared to nominal USD terms).

Also in terms of "scale comparisons". The US soldier gets paid about 7% of the salary of the US President (28k compared to about 400k), the Indian soldier gets paid about 7-8% of the Indian President (1.44 lac compared to 18 lac).

So its not a problem with India paying its soldiers any less compared to its means...Not to say that our soldiers dont deserve a better deal, they do, but that is a topic for a larger discussion than just salaries..

The UN business is quite beyond its sell by date..For an Army that is continuously "overstretched", sending out corps sized numbers of troops on UN missions doesnt seem all that prudent..India's overseas missions need to be expeditionary in nature, serving under the Indian flag..UN missions are as useless as the organisation sponsoring these missions! We belong to a bigger league, and time has come to behave likewise..JMT..

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 15 Jul 2009 10:32

nelson wrote:
darshhan wrote:Can anyone tell me what is the avg salary of our armed forces(both officers and other ranks).If you have data on the salary structure of other security forces(eg. CRPF,BSF,State police) please produce that as well.

You can also simplify your answer.I am not interested in terms like Basic pay,DA,TA etc.What I want to know is how much a member of our armed forces/security forces take home after paying their taxes.What is the avg amount?
rough ball park figures would be..
Sepoy - 10000
Naik - 12000
Havildar - 16000
Naib Subedar - 21000*
Subedar - 24000*
Subedar Major - 28000*
Lieutenant - 36000
Captain - 42000
Major - 48000
Lieutenant Colonel - 60000
Colonel - 65000
Brigadier and Above -I don't bother

above would incl basic+ +gp + da + msp - taxes* at the middle of the service bracket in the given rank

allowances other than da and compensation extra.

*statutory disclaimer - rough figures out of general knowledge only. *

You also have to figure in the CSD facilities (with subsidised daru being main one), free housing and many perks that are especially relevant to the higher level officers.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 15 Jul 2009 10:52

AmitR wrote:
You also have to figure in the CSD facilities (with subsidised daru being main one), free housing and many perks that are especially relevant to the higher level officers.

A small correction, if I may.

There is no subsidy on alcohol or CSD items. We pay VAT and other taxes. The reason why it they are cheaper than the market is because it comes directly from the producer and there are no middlemen or agencies like distributors etc. The huge margins that are there for the middlemen i.e. agency, distributor etc is thus not there. We also pay for the conveyance from the CSD Depot to our Unit Canteens and it has to be in civil transport.

There is no free housing except for PBOR. Officers pay house rent at par with the Central Govt employees. Likewise with water and electricity.

Other perks? The Officers get a Kit Maintenance Allowance every 7 years (I am not too sure since it is such a pittance and one does not even care!). Imagine the number of times we have to change our unifrom since they cannot be shabby and I am not talking of the OG or combat dress. There is the SD and Mess Unforms which are expensive and varies from Regiment to Regiment.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 15 Jul 2009 10:56

The army canteens could easily branch out as India's answer to walmart!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 15 Jul 2009 11:00

I would strongly advocate that the Army does not emulate the Pakistan Fauji Foundation!

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 15 Jul 2009 11:09

p_saggu wrote:The army canteens could easily branch out as India's answer to walmart!

You must see the youtube video "Between the Mullahs and the Military". In this they have shown how the Paki army chief is now the head of the largest business conglomerate in Pakland. They make and sell everything from soap, bakery items to toilet paper. All this has made the Paki generals very very rich while the PBOR are left to subsist on peanuts. Every general is Pakistan is estimated to be worth 5 million pounds from all these activities.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 15 Jul 2009 11:15

RayC wrote:I would strongly advocate that the Army does not emulate the Pakistan Fauji Foundation!

God forbid.
Why can't they disburse their experience of handling such large volumes of materials from manufacturers across the length and breadth of the country? I am sure that the same stuff is available at Srinagar as in Mizoram as in Cochin.
The much acclaimed Solan No 1 is available across the length and breadth of the country (At least where ever my father used to be posted). This shows a highly developed technique of Materials management, something this knowledge based society of ours would love to have.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 15 Jul 2009 14:10

Big Bazaar, Bharati Wal mart etc are picking up retired and yet to retire officers in the logistics and other branches of IA and other forces in a very big way because of the very reasons as p_saggu talks about.

What is often forgotten (outside BRF) is the role of the forces in creating top notch man power for India (identification and training) its a pity that a lot of it is "wasted" by not utilizing the retired personnel from armed forces in a better manner.

God knows India needs well trained people.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 15 Jul 2009 18:00

Try tainted soldiers in criminal court: HC

The Madras HC has held that army personnel accused of committing murder, rape and other such crimes could be tried in a criminal court and not through court martial.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 15 Jul 2009 18:19

vsudhir wrote:Try tainted soldiers in criminal court: HC

The Madras HC has held that army personnel accused of committing murder, rape and other such crimes could be tried in a criminal court and not through court martial.

Army Act Section 70 states that a person subject to this Act who commits an offence of murder against a person not subject to military, naval or air forcelaw or of culpable homicide not amounting to murder against sucn a person, or of rape in relation to such a person, shall not be deemed to be guilty of an offence against this Act and shall not be tried by court martial, unless he commits any of the said offences -

(a) while on active service, or
(b) at any place outside India, or
(c) at a frontier post specified by the Central Government by notification in this behalf.

In other words, it is a Civil Offence and can only be tried in a Civil Court.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 15 Jul 2009 19:02

vsudhir wrote:Try tainted soldiers in criminal court: HC

The Madras HC has held that army personnel accused of committing murder, rape and other such crimes could be tried in a criminal court and not through court martial.

Errr.. Shouldnt he be thanking his stars that he is not being Court Martialled? I mean is it not that Army Law and its implementation will be more stringent than the sentence passed by a criminal court?

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 15 Jul 2009 19:19

Kiran
He is mighty happy with that decision. We all know how long will it take to get this case decided, all this time he will drawing his salary from gov't. Who cares about the victim, we are all victims lets make sure the offender gets a fair trial at the cost of victim getting a fair trial.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jul 2009 20:41

Whats the progress towards creating those IBGs? The plan was for 8 IBGs to provide early deployment in case of war. How hard is it to raise two more IBGs?

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 15 Jul 2009 21:29

edited. Mil forum is not the place to make political comments.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 15 Jul 2009 21:36

Baljeet wrote:Prez Hussein

Took me a while to identify who this was!

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 15 Jul 2009 23:34

Ammunition Stores Lying in Open
Now tell me what to say!!! I am shocked!!!!!

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 15 Jul 2009 23:40

Baljeet wrote:edited.

Source?

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 15 Jul 2009 23:50

Kargil only for NDA to celebrate: Cong MP

Does the Congress consider Kargil as the BJP's war and not the entire country's? Party MP Rashid Alvi seemed to suggest so on Wednesday.

Alvi said he saw no reason to celebrate the Kargil victory. "Kargil isn't a thing to be celebrated. The war was fought within our territory. We didn't even come to know when the Pakistani army crossed over and built bunkers inside our territory. It's only the NDA which may celebrate," he said.

If Alvi's views were shocking, former minister of state for home Sri Prakash Jaiswal couldn't even remember when the Kargil war was fought and won. Asked about Vijay Diwas, he wanted to know when the day was celebrated.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Jul 2009 23:56

ramana guru, I'm not sure if there is clear understanding in public domain wrt the ORBAT and organizational setup of the IBGs. If I understand correctly, the IBGs will need to fulfill two important criterias:

1. Rapid deployment - To mobilize quickly and sieze the initiative in the 48-72hours window and beat PA at its game. This rapid deployment criterion has bearing on not only on the location of the IBGs but also on the ORBAT and Org.setup. I'll elaborate on that in next point

2. Firepower - Considering the fact that the IBGs will be expected to overcome the initial line of defence and hold the bridgehead till heavy cavarly arrives (and hold the PA off),the IBGs are likely to be Armor heavy formations along with mechanized infantry elements. This is both to achieve the objective and exploit the gains. Also, need to have heavy (standardize on the 155mm+MLRS Battery+SATA Battery) integral artillery assets. Elaborating on the the rapid deployment point, the ORBAT will have to be such that assets/units are integral and the formation can exercise and function as one. The PA 1st Armd Div fiasco in 1965 is all well know. While additional assets can be added as per the operational requirement, the IBG itself will need to have sufficient integral firepower to achieve the obejctives. Also, the mechanized element will be required not only from the firepower but also from mobility front. We cannot have the RAPID Division scenario where the formation cannot move at same speed and exploit the gains of the integral Armor assets.

The Organization Setup can follow two paths:

1. "Normal" Division type setup: A Division with mix and match of Armor, Mechanized, Artillery and support elements. The scale is likley to be higher than any other division, given the operational requirement. The identity of each arm is maintained. The RAPID Divisions of the IA are prime candidates with existing Armored Bde(2*Armored Regiments+2*Mechanized Regiments). Additional troops/assets will be added to beef up the formation as per the operational requirement. This is not very difficult to achieve. But I think part from one Indp. Mechanized Bde., all other mechanized regiment units are tied upwith Armored Divisions/Independent Bde. We might need to raise additional Mechanized Regiment Assets.
2. "Integrated" Setup: Something like the Stryker Bde format of US Army with Mechanized/Infantry/Armor elements in each of the battalions of the formation. This is quite radical and something I'm not sure has been tried before. Will require real re organization effort from the IA top brass.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 15 Jul 2009 23:58

p_saggu wrote:The army canteens could easily branch out as India's answer to walmart!

Sometime ago I remember reading an article in the Pakistani magazine, Defence journal (I will try to dig this out over the weekend) warning against this very tendency. The author praised the late Indian army chief Gen. B.C. Joshi’s initiative to restrict and outsource the CSD canteen services lest they become a major sideshow for an organization whose main job is to maintain a lean teeth to tail ratio and stop degeneration into a mughal army. Given our subcontinental psyche, It does not much effort to get steam into this degeneration

The reasons for Pak army’spoor performance in almost major confrontations are not far to seek. The army’s job is to fight the enemy, not act as a patronage agency for it's numerous personnel and their families.

The PLA also exhibits similar tendencies.

These ideas give me a rash when I read through them. Goes to show the leadership for the Indian defence services is more thoughtful than the armchair jernails on this forum think.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 16 Jul 2009 00:01

vsudhir wrote:Kargil only for NDA to celebrate: Cong MP

Does the Congress consider Kargil as the BJP's war and not the entire country's? Party MP Rashid Alvi seemed to suggest so on Wednesday.

Alvi said he saw no reason to celebrate the Kargil victory. "Kargil isn't a thing to be celebrated. The war was fought within our territory. We didn't even come to know when the Pakistani army crossed over and built bunkers inside our territory. It's only the NDA which may celebrate," he said.

If Alvi's views were shocking, former minister of state for home Sri Prakash Jaiswal couldn't even remember when the Kargil war was fought and won. Asked about Vijay Diwas, he wanted to know when the day was celebrated.

Victory over our own territory.He is right what to celebrate

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 16 Jul 2009 00:04

Victory over our own territory.He is right what to celebrate

How about, for starters, the near total destruction of Pak's Northern Light Infantry? Of the exposure of its duplicity in int'l fora? Of the demise of the vaunted 'democracy' model? Of the wake-up call given the desi security establishment?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jul 2009 00:10

So rohitvats, can you look at Intl Mil balance type of work and figure out how many IBGs can be constitiuted? Keep the strike corps and holding corps as is. Can some elements of holding corps be constituted as IBG at the core?

Now that ATGMs are going to be procured in large numbers can the attached armd brigades be tasked to IBG work?

Benjamin · Post by **Benjamin** » 16 Jul 2009 03:07

There was a news recently that Pak occupies point 5353 in Drass sector, which it did not vacate after kargil.

I read a few articels in the net but no conclusive answer.

Can someone shed some light.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 16 Jul 2009 03:12

ramana wrote:Whats the progress towards creating those IBGs? The plan was for 8 IBGs to provide early deployment in case of war. How hard is it to raise two more IBGs?

I think that doctrine was formulated in 2004 ? As per army standards it should have been implemented by now .
Brazen chariots??

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 16 Jul 2009 04:07

‘Precision Ammo’ Fails Test at High Altitudes
The Indian Express

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 16 Jul 2009 06:12

Juggi G wrote:‘Precision Ammo’ Fails Test at High Altitudes
The Indian Express

Well the IA does not seem to have any problems buying this type of crap from the russi natashas. Again some people got rich leaving the country in a lurch.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 16 Jul 2009 06:25

So here we go again. Congress in it's full color.
Congress MP says Kargil was "BJP's War"

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/co ... s-war.html

May be we should send these Paki agents back to their mother ship. Congress is crawling full of Pakis,ISI and CIA wallahs.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 16 Jul 2009 06:42

Wasn't Rashid Alvi formerly of the BSP?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jul 2009 07:15

AmitR wrote:
Juggi G wrote:‘Precision Ammo’ Fails Test at High Altitudes
The Indian Express
Well the IA does not seem to have any problems buying this type of crap from the russi natashas. Again some people got rich leaving the country in a lurch.

What they want is rocket or a guided missle. To take a system designed for plains warfare and demand that it work in high mountains and that too from lower elevation to hit soemthing at higher elevation is incredulous. A laser guided shell has fins that wiffle in the direction of the target looking for laser light reflection. IOW its a guided glider. What they want is a guided missile which has a power source.
No natashas involved. Only pushing the envelope against physics.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 16 Jul 2009 08:03

ramana wrote:
AmitR wrote: Well the IA does not seem to have any problems buying this type of crap from the russi natashas. Again some people got rich leaving the country in a lurch.
What they want is rocket or a guided missle. To take a system designed for plains warfare and demand that it work in high mountains and that too from lower elevation to hit soemthing at higher elevation is incredulous. A laser guided shell has fins that wiffle in the direction of the target looking for laser light reflection. IOW its a guided glider. What they want is a guided missile which has a power source.
No natashas involved. Only pushing the envelope against physics.

Your post makes sense to me. Can someone do a Physics 101 manual for IA

.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 16 Jul 2009 09:15

AmitR wrote:
ramana wrote:
What they want is rocket or a guided missle. To take a system designed for plains warfare and demand that it work in high mountains and that too from lower elevation to hit soemthing at higher elevation is incredulous. A laser guided shell has fins that wiffle in the direction of the target looking for laser light reflection. IOW its a guided glider. What they want is a guided missile which has a power source.
No natashas involved. Only pushing the envelope against physics.
Your post makes sense to me. Can someone do a Physics 101 manual for IA .

No, that would be required for the DDM and may be for the audit authorities.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 16 Jul 2009 09:25

nelson wrote:
AmitR wrote: Your post makes sense to me. Can someone do a Physics 101 manual for IA .
No, that would be required for the DDM and may be for the audit authorities.

Your love for IA is good but no one is perfect. Burying your head in the sand will not make the matter disappear rather it will make it worse. If there is an issue it should be resolved rather than blaming it on the media or the babus all the time. How is the media even supposed to know about defence when our own forces do not even have a half decent web sites and no proper PR to speak of.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Jul 2009 09:57

ramana wrote:So rohitvats, can you look at Intl Mil balance type of work and figure out how many IBGs can be constitiuted? Keep the strike corps and holding corps as is. Can some elements of holding corps be constituted as IBG at the core?

Now that ATGMs are going to be procured in large numbers can the attached armd brigades be tasked to IBG work?

ramana guru, gimme some time. Will work on it and get back by next week.