The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Jul 2009 20:25

My casual snooping around provides reason to believe that the PAK-FA to fly in 2009 will be a Su-3X in a PAK-FA skin. This PAK-FA will have a simple engine, a simple radar and very simple avionics. A very, very basic technology demonstrator.

For it is worth, the F-22 took 10 years during which they changed the design - literally - 10 times. Since most of these designs are in the public domain I am willing to agree that anyone else trying a 5th gen AC will have some lead start, but, will have to still go through a boat load of R&D. With a user ever more hungry for a true 5th Gen plane I very much doubt that the Russian technical establishment can deliver - not because they lack the know how, but because of time and monies. And, if they decide to hurry the product it will be a below what they talk about it.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 10 Jul 2009 23:08

NRao wrote:With a user ever more hungry for a true 5th Gen plane I very much doubt that the Russian technical establishment can deliver - not because they lack the know how, but because of time and monies. And, if they decide to hurry the product it will be a below what they talk about it.

No doubt Pakfa will gain from the Su 35 technology including engine, radar, controls, thrust vectoring, and even air frame configuration. It would have been a waste if it didn't. I always think of Pakfa as an effort to reduce RCS for Su 35.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Jul 2009 23:15

I always think of Pakfa as an effort to reduce RCS for Su 35

For your sake I would hope you are right.

However, even if that is the goal, either they have to hide the bloke using some magic solution (plasma, etc), resort to old fashioned solutions (paint, etc) or redesign the sucker (which is what i would expect).

However, with a lack of funds, I am not sure if they will achieve what they hoped to achieve.

Let us see. A few more months to go.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 13 Jul 2009 19:48

NRao wrote:
I always think of Pakfa as an effort to reduce RCS for Su 35
or redesign the sucker (which is what i would expect).

To clarify, I expect:

- Airframe to be redesigned as there no way to reduce RCS with external weapons
- Use of composites, it is no longer going to be metal
- AESA radar
- AL-41F engine
- Updated weapons
- Other signature mgmt

But most of these technologies would have been developed anyway as an upgrade for Su 30/35 if not for PakFa. That's what I meant by PakFa being partially being just an upgraded Su 35.

Vinito · Post by **Vinito** » 16 Jul 2009 03:24

NRao wrote:My casual snooping around provides reason to believe that the PAK-FA to fly in 2009 will be a Su-3X in a PAK-FA skin. This PAK-FA will have a simple engine, a simple radar and very simple avionics. A very, very basic technology demonstrator.

For it is worth, the F-22 took 10 years during which they changed the design - literally - 10 times. Since most of these designs are in the public domain I am willing to agree that anyone else trying a 5th gen AC will have some lead start, but, will have to still go through a boat load of R&D. With a user ever more hungry for a true 5th Gen plane I very much doubt that the Russian technical establishment can deliver - not because they lack the know how, but because of time and monies. And, if they decide to hurry the product it will be a below what they talk about it.

But if the Russians have been developing the FGFA & PAK-FA concepts since the 90's albeit at a much lower speed wont it be possible that the experience that they have gathered all these years may result in a top of the line aircraft since the project had been shrouded in secrecy for gods knows how long?

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 16 Jul 2009 03:46

Vinito wrote:
NRao wrote:My casual snooping around provides reason to believe that the PAK-FA to fly in 2009 will be a Su-3X in a PAK-FA skin. This PAK-FA will have a simple engine, a simple radar and very simple avionics. A very, very basic technology demonstrator.

For it is worth, the F-22 took 10 years during which they changed the design - literally - 10 times. Since most of these designs are in the public domain I am willing to agree that anyone else trying a 5th gen AC will have some lead start, but, will have to still go through a boat load of R&D. With a user ever more hungry for a true 5th Gen plane I very much doubt that the Russian technical establishment can deliver - not because they lack the know how, but because of time and monies. And, if they decide to hurry the product it will be a below what they talk about it.
But if the Russians have been developing the FGFA & PAK-FA concepts since the 90's albeit at a much lower speed wont it be possible that the experience that they have gathered all these years may result in a top of the line aircraft since the project had been shrouded in secrecy for gods knows how long?

As per a general comparison between american and soviet/russian competition in aircraft design,following could be seen
f86-mig19
f104-mig21
mig27-f4
mig29-f14 ( in 70s)
su27-f15/16/18
f117-?
b2-?
f35/22-?
,till the 70/80's era ,the rusky research goes on parallel( but manufacturing quantity may differ)) ,as per
su27-f15/16/18 analogy, a single pakfa will be fielded against a fleet of b2/f22/f35 , so it must be
twin engined , large airframe of the size of su30 , can have multiple roles with ease, and to dominate aerodynamically once again,.

They should have developed at least something new in 80/90s ,that is still hidden from the market.

I guess pakfa will be more admired of its quality than its beauty ,because this time we could witness the entirety of rusky research on stealth, hope they don't delay it,.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jul 2009 05:16

But if the Russians have been developing the FGFA & PAK-FA concepts since the 90's albeit at a much lower speed wont it be possible that the experience that they have gathered all these years may result in a top of the line aircraft since the project had been shrouded in secrecy for gods knows how long?

My read has been that the Russians lost a lot of their edge in the 90s, when their drunken president lost control over R&D. Given that the US not just had funding, but actually increased theirs, I very much doubt that the Russians - who have brains for sure - can even catch up. They will have enough to counter some techs - as in detection of stealth. But to go head-to-head with the US is - IMVVHO - rather challenging.

As far as the FGFA goes, there were reports that India can actually contribute. Now, I am not sure how to take that - are Indian techs that advanced or is it just good enough to compete with the Russians - I do not know.

But, what is certain is that the US has a huge lead in most areas. Perhaps the Russians can be more than competitive in some areas, but ...............

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2009 12:08

NRao wrote:As far as the FGFA goes, there were reports that India can actually contribute. Now, I am not sure how to take that - are Indian techs that advanced or is it just good enough to compete with the Russians - I do not know.

Are we contributing at all, there is hardly any information (to the best of my knowledge) in the public domain which talks about Indian contribution. Our contribution seems to be more on paper & obviously funding.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jul 2009 03:02

Composites and of course Indian instrumentation - as in the MKI. Beyond that I am not sure. For sure the FGFA will be different than the PAK-FA. As is the MKi is different than the Su-27 family.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 19 Jul 2009 04:13

arunsrinivasan wrote: Are we contributing at all, there is hardly any information (to the best of my knowledge) in the public domain which talks about Indian contribution. Our contribution seems to be more on paper & obviously funding.

My understanding is that there will be Indian avionics only in the Indian version of pak-fa. Beyond that, there seems to be no Indian contribution.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 19 Jul 2009 05:49

arunsrinivasan wrote:
NRao wrote:As far as the FGFA goes, there were reports that India can actually contribute. Now, I am not sure how to take that - are Indian techs that advanced or is it just good enough to compete with the Russians - I do not know.
Are we contributing at all, there is hardly any information (to the best of my knowledge) in the public domain which talks about Indian contribution. Our contribution seems to be more on paper & obviously funding.

i was trying to resist for a while to not post it.

but as far ,as per the info i got....we are contributing for the FGFA in many areas.

the key area being INDIAN STEALTH Technology.(period).others were from avionics and other subsystems.{cant go into detail}
the only area which we have to back-off completely is the engine and has to lay down our arms infront of russians for the engine.

It might look funny and crazy to others who donot know so far about the technology we posses.But FGFA is no way below the level of RAPTOR .....We are looking at a real FGFA aircraft that is far less maintainable and along with low production cost and higher life time.

the backbone of IAF is getting designed on the lines of FGFA and MCA(means ...simple is that they will be produced in numbers)

There is another important aspect which most of you guys will surely put ur fingers on nose.TID BIT is that there will be a spin off from FGFA and MCA breed which is strategically important.

thanks.....donot degrade indian technology which you donot know.
I appreciate it.

jai hind.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jul 2009 06:54

That bird HAS to be rather different than its parent. More MKI than MKI I gather.

Which begs the question - how is MCA doing?

And, if I may, the MRCA effort must not be as bad as we think it to be either.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 19 Jul 2009 07:04

Jaladipc
I am really glad to read that our contribution is so significant. As I have no inside info, my assumption was wholly based upon media reports (mainly Russian). However, no one can be happier than me to have been corrected.
And as NRao asked, how is MCA doing?

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 19 Jul 2009 17:58

@ ^^^

so you think all this local stealth,avionics components wotever,....... is all funny? and crap?

How long does it take a person to learn MAC? who is good and smart with windows?

you better live in Yankeeland rather than in motherland.

If people who ever organizing this forum has no issues with me bringing all those details on to this public domain,I will .

I just dont want to reply your meaning less bold phrases which mean nothing and wasting my time.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jul 2009 18:20

Khukri,

France and Israel? Where is IAF using them?

Recall that after the nuke tests the US (via LM) impounded Indian avionics, etc.

That was in 1998!!!!!!!!!

(And, please discount the recent Hari article - since he has not provided sources.)

Defence Avionics Research Establishment

Mission Avionics: DARE hasdeveloped the Mission computers and avionics for various aircraft, including the HAL Tejas, Jaguar DARIN-II and the Su-30MKI. The mission avionics includes a Mission Computer, Display Processor and Radar Computer. All have been indigenously developed, and represent major breakthroughs in achieving technical proficiency in these technologies.

I am no expert, but IMHO it can ONLY get better.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 19 Jul 2009 19:00

NRao wrote:Khukri,

France and Israel? Where is IAF using them?

Recall that after the nuke tests the US (via LM) impounded Indian avionics, etc.

That was in 1998!!!!!!!!!

(And, please discount the recent Hari article - since he has not provided sources.)

Defence Avionics Research Establishment

Mission Avionics: DARE hasdeveloped the Mission computers and avionics for various aircraft, including the HAL Tejas, Jaguar DARIN-II and the Su-30MKI. The mission avionics includes a Mission Computer, Display Processor and Radar Computer. All have been indigenously developed, and represent major breakthroughs in achieving technical proficiency in these technologies.
I am no expert, but IMHO it can ONLY get better.

Without generalising - I meant the SU30MKI components - French INS, Israeli countermeasures.
If our "I have a secret source" friend above can provide a source for his statement, I'm happy to eat humble pie!
And yes - no issues with DARE's achievements, I'm sure they will have input into the FGFA - I'm just peeved at these "secret source" wallahs who pretend to be well informed!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jul 2009 19:17

khukri wrote: Without generalising - I meant the SU30MKI components - French INS, Israeli countermeasures.
If our "I have a secret source" friend above can provide a source for his statement, I'm happy to eat humble pie!
And yes - no issues with DARE's achievements - I'm just peeved at these "secret source" wallahs!!

That is a very weak argument. Even then IIRC INS India has since caught up. And, countermeasures are dependent on sensors - which India will catch up. BUT, I would think that is a smaller part of the whole 'avionics' picture and to make a general statement that India is importing avionics is totally wrong. India - perhaps - is importing a small (but important - as all parts are equally important) part.

MAC & Windows??? that's the source of your stealth and avionics breakthrough???

Hope you are not confusing his "MAC" with Apple's "Mac".

. While "Windows" is Microsoft's "Windows".

I am not sure there is foundation for a proper discussion here. IF Indian "avionics" is the major part of the MKI "avionics" that should be enough to close this discussion.

And, IF we can take one look at the MCA wind tunnel model it should provide enough armchair indicators to show how far India could have advanced in fields that are not open source.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 19 Jul 2009 20:05

That is a very weak argument. Even then IIRC INS India has since caught up. And, countermeasures are dependent on sensors - which India will catch up. BUT, I would think that is a smaller part of the whole 'avionics' picture and to make a general statement that India is importing avionics is totally wrong. India - perhaps - is importing a small (but important - as all parts are equally important) part.

Caught up? How? And your source for that statement? It seems to me you're induging in wishful thinking here. You say India has caught up without specifying how and then you go on to say - if it hasn't, it will. I'd say that's a weak argument!!

MAC & Windows??? that's the source of your stealth and avionics breakthrough???

Hope you are not confusing his "MAC" with Apple's "Mac".

. While "Windows" is Microsoft's "Windows".

Actually - I'm pretty sure that's what he meant!!
I am not sure there is foundation for a proper discussion here. IF Indian "avionics" is the major part of the MKI "avionics" that should be enough to close this discussion.

You're making it a "discussion" - all I'm pointing out is that this gentleman is pretending to be well informed by holding out that he is privy to secret sources of information that he can't discuss on the foreum. Just read the trash he wrote - now you tell me - does he sound like someone who would have access to such information?

And, IF we can take one look at the MCA wind tunnel model it should provide enough armchair indicators to show how far India could have advanced in fields that are not open source.[/quote]

Could have - there you go, speculation again - please give me facts or sources for those facts - possibility is always an outcome - just tell me what the indicators are that it is actually in the pipeline. Any half wit can draw a diagram and then have someone sculpt a model from it.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Jul 2009 20:14

khukri, you are free to believe/disbelieve anything that is not open source and/or officially declared. but that should not mean that you can't express the disbelief without being rude. please don't be.

jalad, assuming what you are saying is true and comes from people involved, have you thought that perhaps there's a definite reason why this stuff hasn't been disclosed to the public yet ?

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 19 Jul 2009 20:50

jaladipc wrote:FGFA is no way below the level of RAPTOR .

I don't know what privy u have to insider info. Neither i want to know it. But I agree with what u say.

-Nitin

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 19 Jul 2009 21:08

Let's stick to good old BRF way of "you have to show a source for your claims or keep it to yourself" rule.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Jul 2009 21:15

Katare wrote:Let's stick to good old BRF way of "you have to show a source for your claims or keep it to yourself" rule.

second that.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 19 Jul 2009 22:20

Rahul M wrote:khukri, you are free to believe/disbelieve anything that is not open source and/or officially declared. but that should not mean that you can't express the disbelief without being rude. please don't be.

Generally I'm not. I am a member of this forum to learn about India's progress in military matters and obtain genuine information in that context.

I endorse the views expressed above - if you can't provide a source for posted information - keep it to yourself - there's probably a very good reason for it not being in the public domain - respect that.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 19 Jul 2009 22:24

Although a russian minister indicated that pakfa would be launched in 2009 ,but this could only be one of the possible design models ,than version which may not be coming before 2015,and India getting it after that,.

It must take them at least a decade since the launch of the official program, I guess that was in 2004.

Even though the common logic suggests that since russians have not yet developed a mature aesa that can compete with raptor including other functions , a super cruising engine,other avionics and beyond all ,
a model to work upon ,. which is already taking time till 2012, .

One could say that sukhoi's design was selected, but what we will see in 2009 is a demo(one of the possible designs), not a fully developed system .

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2009 02:42

Khukri,

Fair enough. (I am assuming that the avionics issue is resolved - that India has a robust avionics and some of it is imported.)

Rahul M,

I do not know that person, but, I can empathise with him. I can only state that a supply chain associated with a F-16/18 will benefit. Can I provide proof - no.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2009 03:11

This is a 'I miss JCage' post (not my forte) (I read through such articles, but are of no interest to me):

Jan, 2009 :: India upgrades MiG-27 aircraft avionics

Defence Avionics Research Establishment under the aegis of Defence Research and Development Organisation has added one more feather to its cap with the successful completion of avionics upgrade of MiG-27 aircraft. This pioneering effort was realised using entirely indigenous expertise at a fraction of cost. The project was initiated in the year 2002 through a tripartite MoU between DARE, HAL(Nasik) and Air Force. The Initial Operational Clearance was accorded in June 2006 which led to the subsequent formation of operational squadrons.

The avionics system is built around a modular mission computer termed Core Avionics Computer (CAC), developed by DARE. The CAC built on open system principles, houses functional modules using contemporary processors and devices. These functional modules are powering the mission computers on Jaguar and Su-30 MKI aircraft as well.

The upgraded MiG-27 aircraft is equipped with Inertial Navigation & Global Positioning System (INGPS) providing accurate Navigation. Advanced avionics on the aircraft has been interfaced on MIL-STD-1553B Dual Redundant Bus. To enable weapon aiming, accurate ranging sensors such as Laser Designator Pod (LDP) and Laser Ranger & Marked Target Seeker (LRMTS) are integrated. A digital Map Generator has been integrated to improve situational awareness. The digital Video Recording system provides mission analysis and debrief support.

DARE took up the challenge of developing the mission critical software. Over half a million lines of code were developed adhering to stringent real time constraints and requisite software engineering requirements. The resultant quality software was independently verified and validated with external agencies.

(Old Cockpit vs DARE Upgrade)

DARE developed algorithms for navigation, ranging including a weapon delivery algorithm which was developed along with Software Development Institute of Air Force enabling precision Weapon Delivery.

The upgraded aircraft has a pilot friendly cockpit with state-of-Art Multi Function Display (MFD) and Head Up Display (HUD). The pilot flies “Head Up” with all the necessary NAV and attack guidance symbology presented on the HUD and superimposed on the outside world view. The Integrated Flight and Weapon Control System of the upgraded aircraft enables Hands Free (Auto Pilot) Route Flying and Auto-Weapon delivery. A functional maintenance mode has been incorporated providing “On AIRCRAFT” LRU health checks.

Advanced integrated EW Suite is integrated along with state-of-art communication systems. The upgraded aircraft also has an emergency situation indication system and automated emergency handling cueing system on Multi Function Display (MFD). The introduction of LDP has enhanced the Night Attack Capability.

HAL, Nasik was instrumental in the design and modification of prototype aircraft for installation of new cockpit and avionics equipment as well as related looming changes.

The avionics upgrade has transformed the legacy aircraft into a potent weapon delivery platform with a user friendly cockpit. All the aircrafts have been upgraded and the users are enamored with the performance of the upgraded aircraft which is comparable with contemporary aircraft in use around the world.

DARE has forged synergetic partnerships with leaders from private industries like M/s TCS and M/s ComAvia to leverage the best in knowledge and the latest in technology. With this upgrade project DRDO, HAL, ADE, IAF, CEMILAC and DGAQA has showcased the expertise that exists within the country for completing complex and challenging task of aircraft upgrade.

What else reamins? Countermeasures, Helmet, display units? ANy thing else?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2009 03:22

Dman, that DARE again.

June, 2008 :: SAMTEL And DARE Give Big Boost To Indigenization Efforts Of Indian Avionics

Samtel Display Systems – a key player internationally within the sector of manufacturing of avionic equipments and systems, today announced that the indigenous Multi Functional Displays (MFD), jointly developed with DARE (DRDO) and manufactured by them have got clearance for flight testing from RCMA (Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness), and was subsequently followed by flight trials.

Prior to flying, extensive ground tests were undertaken at Su-30 integration rig. The tests were conducted during both daylight hours and in the night to evaluate the display characteristics of the MFD under varying light conditions. Four test sorties were undertaken at an altitude of approx. 40,000 ft with the indigenous MFD for its evaluation, and no failure of MFD’s was observed. Samtel will implement minor improvements suggested by the flight crew.

With this achievement, Samtel becomes the first Indian company to indigenize multifunctional displays for the Indian Defence forces. The flight trials were conducted on the Sukhoi Su-30 aircrafts at Barreilly.

Samtel Display Systems has a JV with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to produce indigenous next-generation MFDs, HUDs (Head Up Displays) and HMD (Helmet Mounted Displays) for HAL’s star programs like IJT, LCA and SU-30 MKI. Along with this, Samtel has recently entered a JV with Thales to work towards the local development, production, sale and maintenance of Helmets Mounted Sight & Display (HMSD) and other Avionics Systems destined for the Indian market.

Commenting on this landmark achievement, Samtel Group’s CMD Mr. Satish Kaura said, “The flight testing of these indigenous MFDs underscores Samtel’s commitment to produce high quality, high performance avionics equipment and systems for our customers both in the Indian and international arena. It reinforces our endeavors to develop and provide indigenous technology developed to meet Export market and Defence Offset requirements by the overseas clients.”

The Multi-Functional display (MFD) is a device that puts all aircraft-systems monitoring and flight planning functions at the pilot's fingertips. The MFD paints a composite view of the aircraft’s environment, providing the pilot with all necessary information to make safe decisions during every phase of flight. Engine performance and situational data such as location, terrain, traffic, weather and airport information are all digitally depicted and can be quickly interpreted at a glance on the large-format display.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2009 03:25

HELMET MOUNTED DISPLAY (HMD)

TopSight-I
Indian Helmet Mounted Sight and Display for Indian fighter aircraft

Based on Thales advanced and mature technologies, already flying on Indian Navy MiG-29K and qualified on Mirage 2000

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2009 03:32

Tejas Light Combat Supersonic Fighter, India

No date so far.

Countermeasures
The aircraft's electronic warfare suite, developed by the Advanced Systems Integration and Evaluation Organisation (ASIEO) of Bangalore, includes a radar warning receiver and jammer, laser warner, missile approach warner, and chaff and flare dispenser.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2009 03:33

Seriously, any thing else remaining?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2009 03:40

Not much here, but, for the record:

Feb, 2009 :: India to develop medium combat aircraft with stealth features

Very old news:

Mar, 2003 :: Subject: Indian Stealth Technology

Nov, 2006 :: IIT develops technology to produce stealth aircraft

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2009 03:41

ALL that in 29 minutes of search!!!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2009 03:48

June, 2009 :: Indian Air Force to Procure Missiles for Jaguar Aircraft

The Indian Air Force has alerted global missile manufacturers that it wishes to procure air-to-air close-combat missiles with helmet-mounted displays (HMDs) for its Jaguar ground-attack aircraft.

........................................

India is presently incorporating stealth technology, Magic-2 and R-77 missiles into its aircraft to enhance combat capability and equal the Russian Su-30MKI multi-role aircraft.

The air force also hopes to acquire precision-guided bombs and anti-ship missiles for the Jaguars.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 20 Jul 2009 07:25

NRao wrote:Dman, that DARE again.

June, 2008 :: SAMTEL And DARE Give Big Boost To Indigenization Efforts Of Indian Avionics

Samtel Display Systems – a key player internationally within the sector of manufacturing of avionic equipments and systems, today announced that the indigenous Multi Functional Displays (MFD), jointly developed with DARE (DRDO) and manufactured by them have got clearance for flight testing from RCMA (Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness), and was subsequently followed by flight trials.

Prior to flying, extensive ground tests were undertaken at Su-30 integration rig. The tests were conducted during both daylight hours and in the night to evaluate the display characteristics of the MFD under varying light conditions. Four test sorties were undertaken at an altitude of approx. 40,000 ft with the indigenous MFD for its evaluation, and no failure of MFD’s was observed. Samtel will implement minor improvements suggested by the flight crew.

With this achievement, Samtel becomes the first Indian company to indigenize multifunctional displays for the Indian Defence forces. The flight trials were conducted on the Sukhoi Su-30 aircrafts at Barreilly.

Samtel Display Systems has a JV with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to produce indigenous next-generation MFDs, HUDs (Head Up Displays) and HMD (Helmet Mounted Displays) for HAL’s star programs like IJT, LCA and SU-30 MKI. Along with this, Samtel has recently entered a JV with Thales to work towards the local development, production, sale and maintenance of Helmets Mounted Sight & Display (HMSD) and other Avionics Systems destined for the Indian market.

Commenting on this landmark achievement, Samtel Group’s CMD Mr. Satish Kaura said, “The flight testing of these indigenous MFDs underscores Samtel’s commitment to produce high quality, high performance avionics equipment and systems for our customers both in the Indian and international arena. It reinforces our endeavors to develop and provide indigenous technology developed to meet Export market and Defence Offset requirements by the overseas clients.”

The Multi-Functional display (MFD) is a device that puts all aircraft-systems monitoring and flight planning functions at the pilot's fingertips. The MFD paints a composite view of the aircraft’s environment, providing the pilot with all necessary information to make safe decisions during every phase of flight. Engine performance and situational data such as location, terrain, traffic, weather and airport information are all digitally depicted and can be quickly interpreted at a glance on the large-format display.

From Samtel Displays website:

Products on Display included -- FCD66 MKII (Samtel and Thales collaboration for 6"x6" CRT display for Airbus), EFIS 40 (Samtel and Honeywell collaboration for 4"x4" colour avionics display), TopSight-I (Helmet Mounted Sight and Display by Samtel Thales JV), MFD 5"x5" (developed by Samtel-HAL JV, flying on Sukhoi 30 MKIs), and MFD 6"x8" developed by Samtel Display Systems.
...........................................
Note the contributions of Honeywell and Thales - these aren\t "developed"here - they are based on technology supplied by the joint venture partners, The only thing developed by Samtel is the actual display unit - a small TV screen - not exactly high technology - !

But back to my initial point - I'm not disputing that the possibility exists - my point was that the nudge nudge wink wink - I have a secret source school of information provision should be discouraged - specially when he then claims MAC and Windowws as the sbasis for the information!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2009 08:27

I see progress. From "imported" (from Israel and France) we have come to "JV". So, we can agree that there is very, very little to nothing that is "imported"? And, can we agree that - from what we know (so far) that India has sufficient capabilities in the stealth area? (Since I did not see any comments on those topics.)

On wink-wink ............... the original post (that started this all) stated that outside of engines India has pretty much all techs. How far are we in that discussion?

Thales JV - IIRC that was the deal when India brought them in for the MKI in mid 1990s. But it is made in India. (More on JV l8r if need be.)

On "JV" in general, the US is the only player. The rest - ALL - follow. India - as we post - does NOT have the capability to "follow" without JV in most hardware situations (unlike RU/FR). It will change in 5 - 10 years. I distinctly recall going through very similar arguments in the late 90s for the MKI ------ ON BR!!!!! (On the US being a leader - IMVVHO, no one will catch up. At least for some 20-30 years.)

I expect the $3-5 Billion in MRCA offsets to make a difference - rather quickly.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 20 Jul 2009 11:21

NRao wrote:I see progress. From "imported" (from Israel and France) we have come to "JV". So, we can agree that there is very, very little to nothing that is "imported"?

No the aforementioned INS systems and countermeasures on the SU30's are still being imported as are several other avionics items.

And, can we agree that - from what we know (so far) that India has sufficient capabilities in the stealth area? (Since I did not see any comments on those topics.)

I will concede that work is apparently being done on some aspects of stealth - I believe the links you provided indicate cockpit coatings and RCS reduction - but that isn't the sum of all stealth - so no, we do not, on the evidence available, have sufficient stealth capabilities - certainly not on par with the Raptor as suggested by our friend who intiated this discussion.

On wink-wink ............... the original post (that started this all) stated that outside of engines India has pretty much all techs. How far are we in that discussion?

You tell me, Mr Secret Source has kept rather quiet during this discussion having made two no value contributions in the beginning.

Thales JV - IIRC that was the deal when India brought them in for the MKI in mid 1990s. But it is made in India. (More on JV l8r if need be.)

Sure it is - but is it technology that is comparable to that in the Raptor as suggested by the initial post?

On "JV" in general, the US is the only player. The rest - ALL - follow. India - as we post - does NOT have the capability to "follow" without JV in most hardware situations (unlike RU/FR). It will change in 5 - 10 years. I distinctly recall going through very similar arguments in the late 90s for the MKI ------ ON BR!!!!! (On the US being a leader - IMVVHO, no one will catch up. At least for some 20-30 years.)

I expect the $3-5 Billion in MRCA offsets to make a difference - rather quickly.

Agreed, but the most sensitive may still not reach us - particularly if a US aircraft is chosen.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 20 Jul 2009 14:54

Venkarl wrote:
Katare wrote:Let's stick to good old BRF way of "you have to show a source for your claims or keep it to yourself" rule.
Sharing such info via email is also prohibited? I don't think its a problem no?

If it is really top secret, suggest to keep it off mail as well(esp gmail) ..... but that is personal choice

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2009 17:13

Agreed, but the most sensitive may still not reach us - particularly if a US aircraft is chosen.

It cannot.

In fact, the ONLY time they will allow even JV is when THEY are convinced that India is fairly close to obtaining that particular tech by herself. Some feel to make monies of the last remaining drop .................... Perhaps.

However, having said that, I have to suspect that a US purchase would/could mean that India will be a gen or two ahead of others in usage - NOT in getting to build that tech.

AESA is a hotly debated/discussed topic, but I can assure you that "networks" is one hell of a dynamite area (I have posted quite a bit in the past - going back some 6-8 years). Lights out.

Another area (IMHO) where India can benefit is supply chain - this one single area could negate some of the biggest of India's genuine concern about multiple assets - support, etc AND go on to benefit the civilian areas too. The costs to build these from ground up is humongous.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2009 17:31

No the aforementioned INS systems and countermeasures on the SU30's are still being imported as are several other avionics items.

Source?

You tell me, Mr Secret Source has kept rather quiet during this discussion having made two no value contributions in the beginning.

IF I were him, I would too.

He cannot talk of what is not in open source.

Sure it is - but is it technology that is comparable to that in the Raptor as suggested by the initial post?

I understand the hesitancy/reluctance. IMHO - and I do NOT know anything about the MCA - the biggest challenge will be IR suppression. I am not sure if we even know how the Raptor does it, but it is reported to do it. The second biggest challenge - network (this for sure India will input from the US - no one else has this tech and IMVVVHO or will get it for at least 10-20 years if they decide to re-invent).

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 20 Jul 2009 19:48

The Ruaf says it has requirement of about 300 pakfa, and is eager to open production line in russia only even for exports ,.http://www.heritage.org/research/Nation ... bg2295.cfm

How many does IAF requires, ?

The israelis are going for about 100 jsf and aussies are buying 50 jsf, .

Aren't we lagging as a major air power in asia and IOR within a decade?, because 5th gen ac demonstration>production is nowhere ,also the MCA program haven't yet started,
what will be repercussions , provided if we do not get 5gen soon ,we may lose 'the edge' . ?