Small Arms Thread

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 21 Jul 2009 22:37

The point is that Army had a decade to be pro-active in developing indigenous alternatives, even if required with Pvt sector but they will wait for a decade for green light for imports but never put their backbone into any development project.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Jul 2009 22:46

Sandipan wrote:From the process suggested by RayC, it seems a 5-year plan, by that time weapon selected might become obsolete. Who knows? Rahul M - agreed maybe INSAS AR may stay for a decade more but rest of the INSAS family might get replaced. Anyway apart from INSAS AR, INSAS carbine is used in limited number, rest all like Excalibur, Kalantak etc. seems to stay in prototype stage only.

rest of INSAS family isn't there to be replaced to begin with.

RayC what is your opinion on the INSAS LMG ?

Correct me if I am wrong.

The Rifles are for the Parachute Bns.
The INSAS Rifles for parachute battalions are acceptable by them?

The current carbines 'cook off' and if they fall by mistake, they are activated! So, should we not go in for something that does not 'cook off' are take off in a frenzy if dropped by error?

Ray sir, are you saying the paras used the carbine version ?
if so I'm a bit confused by what the article says about the AR deal.

If the paras used the carbine to begin with why would they shift to an AR ? change in doctrine ?

FWIW, regarding the carbine, DRDO logic was that IA had asked too high a range for the carbine version resulting in the problematic rounds that cooked off. I have no idea what to make of this claim.

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 21 Jul 2009 23:46

Raj Malhotra wrote:The point is that Army had a decade to be pro-active in developing indigenous alternatives, even if required with Pvt sector but they will wait for a decade for green light for imports but never put their backbone into any development project.

Does the army have an active "weapons development division" or are officers just deputed to DRDO.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 22 Jul 2009 05:11

darshhan wrote:But the problem in India is that indigenous means products developed and manufactured by DRDO/OFB/Defense PSUs.Now I understand that for strategic programs like Missile development and nuclear submarine agencies like DRDO are required.But now they want to produce stuff like assault rifles and Battle fatigues as well.

OFB, and its predecessors (RFI etc.), has always produced India's small arms - so it is nothing new that they continue to do so. What is "new" is that their quality controls has again slipped into the gutters. I put the word new in quotes because it seems to be a periodic problem. When the pressure is turned on and they are put under close scrutiny, they can come up with good solutions and deliver results (ex. Ishapore 2A, early SLRs). After that its the same ol' same ol' story. I can see the wisdom in GoI's reluctance to issue arms-manufacturing permits private manufacturers, given India's delicate political situation, but it has to generate some kind of competition. Either setup another, competing Defense Lab and PSU - or take into trust one or two very large Indian private industries for such production (like they are doing with Tata, L&T etc. on some defense projects).

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 22 Jul 2009 10:55

ssmitra wrote:Does anyone know what the stoppage of INSAS rifles is and if this kind of test has been done?

Like This?

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story ... t_id=77704

The Army's Infantry School in Mhow tested 44 INSAS rifles of the Platoon Weapons Division, simulating an "intense operational scenario". The rifles were put through alternative tests of short-burst firing and single-shot firing.

The report of the tests says the rate of fire and performance during high cyclic load was "acceptable".

A total of 12,237 rounds were fired. The total number of "stoppages" where rounds get jammed during continuous use was under one per cent, a vindication of the Army's stand, since the international norm for small arms is two per cent.

The report says out of 44 rifles, only 15 faced stoppages, and only three more than eight stoppages. Barring the three, the average stoppage was only 0.66 per cent, the report adds.

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 22 Jul 2009 12:14

Avinash R wrote:
ssmitra wrote:Does anyone know what the stoppage of INSAS rifles is and if this kind of test has been done?
Like This?

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story ... t_id=77704

The Army's Infantry School in Mhow tested 44 INSAS rifles of the Platoon Weapons Division, simulating an "intense operational scenario". The rifles were put through alternative tests of short-burst firing and single-shot firing.

The report of the tests says the rate of fire and performance during high cyclic load was "acceptable".

A total of 12,237 rounds were fired. The total number of "stoppages" where rounds get jammed during continuous use was under one per cent, a vindication of the Army's stand, since the international norm for small arms is two per cent.

The report says out of 44 rifles, only 15 faced stoppages, and only three more than eight stoppages. Barring the three, the average stoppage was only 0.66 per cent, the report adds.

Awesome find Avinash Bhai... now only if they would dissolve OFB and get some private enterprise in.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 23 Jul 2009 09:59

India Launches Soldier-Gear Effort (F-INSAS)
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =ASI&s=TOP

One ministry official said two critical technologies will be designed and developed by the state's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) - a multicaliber individual weapon and an air-bursting grenade.

Other arms and gear will include anti-tank guided missiles, thermal sights and launchers; bulletproof vehicles; anti-materiel rifles; advanced carbines; surveillance radars; ground sensors; secure communications; guided ammunition; laser rangefinders; and light clothing and bulletproof jackets.

New clothing will include nuclear-biological-chemical protection.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Jul 2009 10:55

Rahul M wrote:
RayC what is your opinion on the INSAS LMG ?

This is a very difficult question to answer.

The short answer is that for logistic reasons, all weapons should have the same calibre and lighter the better, given that the soldier is slowly getting many extra equipment in addition to what they carry. However, since the destruction of the enemy is graduated in response and the automatic weapons are to take on the enemy at longer ranges, the larger the calibre, the greater is what is called 'stopping power'.

The Rifles are for the Parachute Battalions since the INSAS Para version was said to be unsatifactory.

Correct me if I am wrong.

The Rifles are for the Parachute Bns.
The INSAS Rifles for parachute battalions are acceptable by them?

The current carbines 'cook off' and if they fall by mistake, they are activated! So, should we not go in for something that does not 'cook off' are take off in a frenzy if dropped by error?

Ray sir, are you saying the paras used the carbine version ?
if so I'm a bit confused by what the article says about the AR deal.

If the paras used the carbine to begin with why would they shift to an AR ? change in doctrine ?

FWIW, regarding the carbine, DRDO logic was that IA had asked too high a range for the carbine version resulting in the problematic rounds that cooked off. I have no idea what to make of this claim.
opers did not use carbines. All had rifles (Para version i.e. shorter in length) Carbines/ pistol are authorised to those who carry additional weapon.

I am not aware what the reason it is for the DRDO to not being capable of producing the Carbine. I believe it is still being tried out! Now, if what the QRs IA gave was not feasible, it should have been told many years ago. The problem with the DRDO is that they never say that they can't produce an eqpt, and keep a project going for years. They give some half cocked prototypes as 'having met the GSQR' and in the User Trials it turns out to be a lemon! Then they state that they will work on the errors and rectify and come back again. This helps their funding and the funds include adminstrative issues too (Wheel within wheels)! And so this carries on till everyone is disgusted and finally it is thrust on the user with the proviso that rectification will be done online production!

The DRDO has some eminent scientist and they are close to the powers that be. Hence, they cannot be shrugged off. Further, unlike the popular opinion here, the men in uniform are also proud of their country and want indigenisation. Therefore, we accept it even with problems, which we think will iron out. Kargil War saw some problems with the INSAS and now they are rectified.

To be fair to the DRDO, the designing of weapon systems in India is more challenging than anywhere else. India is not a rich country where they can have weapons which are terrrain and climate specific. We have to have weapon systems that can be operated in the cold of Siachen, as also in burning heat of the Thar, and in the jungles with all its humidity and rain. Therefore, it is a very difficult task to meet all the requirements!

Even foreign equipment cannot fulfil all the requirements!

The worst problem is the OFB, which has the Indian socialist mindset. They are legend in slippages! Hence, we, as a country are up a gum tree.

Take the case of the IFG. Barrels used to burst and people killed. Why? Because of defective Autofrettage. Why? Because of unannounced loadshedding and so the process was skewed. Since it meant deadlines not met and CAG breathing down the neck, continue with it! Jo ho, so ho!

Weapons designing and production is not easy in India!

Another reason why things don't fructify is that we have this 'nothing grows under the banyan tree'. No one is allowed initiative and creativity be anywhere (in the govt, the defence or even the civil world). There is a tremendous sense of play safe- ism. Jee Huzoorism!

Unless we change the mentality (which I think is impossible), we will be reinventing the wheel!

I have met some DRDO scientists and technicians and while they had ideas, they were of the opinion - why rock the boat?!

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 23 Jul 2009 18:24

Was this posted?

INSAS rifles to soldiers

The INSAS rifle was developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) based on Army’s Qualitative Requirements. It was inducted into the Army after extensive trials in the years 1996-97. Since inception, design of rifle, has undergone five modifications as per user’s requirement to make it more user-friendly. The Ordnance Factory Board is supplying INSAS rifles duly proved and accepted by the Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA), an agency designated by the Defence Forces. The rifle is tested for its quality, safety and strength, operational requirements and other rigorous tests as per the stipulated standards laid down by DGQA.

With the change in the operational environment to keep pace with new technology, Qualitative Requirements for a New Generation Assault Rifle of current technology have been spelt out by the Army.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Janeshwar Mishra and Others in Rajya Sabha today.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 23 Jul 2009 22:16

^
^
RayC why this large amount of 'love' for OFB and DRDO over carbines? OFB has already commissioned a new factory to manufacture carbines.

...
The foundation-stone of Indian Ordnance Factory, Korwa in Amethi was laid at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Complex by Mr Rahul Gandhi, Member of Parliament. Also present on this occasion were Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjit Singh, Mrs Amita Singh, MLA from Amethi, Mr KP Singh, Secretary, Defence Production, Mr Sudipta Ghosh, Chairman, Ordnance Factory Board, Kolkata and several senior officers of HAL, Korwa.
...
The Ordnance Factory would produce 5.56 mm carbines besides other weapons of small calibre, It would adequately equip the Armed Forces and paramilitary forces with high quality weapons for performing protective as well as close quarter battle (COB) roles. The new carbine to be produced at this plant would employ modern high-tech manufacturing facilities, use materials incorporating latest metallurgical techniques, thereby, ensuring a light weight weapon with effective fire power and lethality.

The new plant will also have cold swaging machines to produce high quality barrels and chamber, automatic chrome plating plant, computer controlled modern heat treatment shop and multi-axes CNC machining centres for production of precision and highly accurate components. The new technologies of cold swaging and manufacturing of barrel along with chromium plating will enhance the life of the weapons manifold and improve the maintainability of this carbine.
....

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 24 Jul 2009 00:01

Rahul baba's gift to his constituency.I wouldn't be surprised if this factory is named after Rajiv Gandhi.And as I earlier said OFB is nothing but an employment scheme.An instrument to distribute largesse in order to make political profits.

Contrary to what GOI says It has nothing to do with indigenization or patriotism.It is just a jobs program where there is no room for innovation and creativity.No respite for the Warrior.

Sandipan · Post by **Sandipan** » 24 Jul 2009 00:35

Very Good post by RayC, what appears is that there is no straight forward band-aid solution for the problem we have with manufacture of small arms. I think as there has been a committee set up to look into the functioning of DRDO, similar step should be taken to privatize the OFB. I think it has become very bureaucratic with little space for free thinking. Privatization of OFB on second thought may be a problem for the Govt. as opposition specially Red parties will create all the ruckus. I think the fastest way should be let OFB face competition by allowing private small arms manufacturers to set up shop. Just like Banking reforms, OFB on having competition from private parties would get smarter.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 24 Jul 2009 01:00

Sandipan wrote:Very Good post by RayC, what appears is that there is no straight forward band-aid solution for the problem we have with manufacture of small arms. I think as there has been a committee set up to look into the functioning of DRDO, similar step should be taken to privatize the OFB. I think it has become very bureaucratic with little space for free thinking. Privatization of OFB on second thought may be a problem for the Govt. as opposition specially Red parties will create all the ruckus. I think the fastest way should be let OFB face competition by allowing private small arms manufacturers to set up shop. Just like Banking reforms, OFB on having competition from private parties would get smarter.

Sandipan, the problem is not the communist parties after the recent elections.They are no longer in coalition.The real problem lies with Congress.It is itself a leftist/socialist party.You just have to look at recent budget announced by the finance minister after the elections.Disinvestment is no longer a priority for them.They simply don't believe in Free market economy and private enterprise.

This is the bane of India.China being a country ruled by communist party practises better Capitalism than us.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 24 Jul 2009 01:18

Speaking of innovation let's see where the world is headed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweigh ... chnologies

http://www.gizmag.com/aa-12-combat-shot ... tic/11393/

http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl13-e.htm

http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/10/02/12 ... he-weight/

Now take a guess how much time will OFB take even to attempt these kind of solutions.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 14 Aug 2009 08:26

PSE TAC 15

This AR-15 accessory-called the "Tactical Assault Crossbow 15"-will morph your standard AR into a viable crossbow for hunting big game.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 14 Aug 2009 15:52

^^^

reminds himself never to meet Gerard alone.

Neilz · Post by **Neilz** » 16 Aug 2009 12:29

Ray C sir,

if you remember we have discussed orange cosmetics of insas in this thread http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=360

And I informed that probably I saw some dull color insas in chennai station... finally got pic... insas LMG from http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 78&page=78

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 17 Aug 2009 00:45

Re Ray

Regarding your reply about failure of DRDO to develop carbine, an gentleman called INSASMAN on WAF had said that it is due to burn profile of the INSAS round. As I understand that this round is different from NATO round and has a longer burn profile, thus if the barrel of rifle is shortened to develop a carbine the propellant burns outside the barrel leading due to huge flash bang and other problems. If my understanding is correct on this issue, neither DRDO or Army can change laws of physics. We need a modified round. Even with current INSAS rifle, some leeway is possible to manupulate the round. I think something like Mk262 77grain 5.56 mm round will solve lot of INSAS carbine problems. Did army try anything of this nature?

Can you tell us what major changes INSAS has gone through to make it more user friendlY?

Also any knowledge or details about new F-INSAS weapon i.e. new rifle being developed by DRDO? After all if so much info is in public domain about LCA, Agni, ATV then some light should be thrown on more mundane weapon systems which are of more daily effective use?

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 18 Aug 2009 03:34

lol Shameekg,

I wish these reporters would do their homework.

looks like the guys in the photo are carrying mp-5's. Which I believe is now obsolete against the kind of body armor they have nowadays. I wonder for how long we will continue using these before replacing them with something like mp-7. Maybe it will take another tragedy for us to learn our lesson.

Also, about the sniper rifle, do we operate any .50 calibre LRSR's at all? or is it just psg1 and Dragunov that we use?

U.S and Canadian troops made mincemeat of Talibs by using .50 M107 and tac-50. They got kills well in excess of 2000 metres using those. Why are we not using them?

I bet our BFF's China and P-tan already have them.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 18 Aug 2009 03:54

^^I guess you have not heard of vidhvansak with range upto 2kms.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 18 Aug 2009 06:15

Hi Parijit,
I had indeed not heard of vidhvansak. Thanks for telling me that.

I guess it has been in service for only 2 years now. I would like to know how useful it has been so far to the armed forces especially in counter insurgency role.
But, with a weight of 26kgs it seems to have been meant more for an AMR role than for regular sniping which much lighter rifles like M107 and the tac-50 are more effective at.

None the less feels good to know we have it.

I understand that so far I have gone off topic here. but I just read that there are only 100 of these in service? That i belive is a very low number.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 19 Aug 2009 11:33

AFAIK, Vidwansak is only being used by the BSF in IB areas for use against Puke bunkers when the ceasefire breaks down.

Its too heavy to lug around. The M107 on the other hand, is light (relatively) and can be carried by one guy, or easily by a two man sniper team.

Incidentally, the .50 cal seems to be the most popular long range round for a long time (since it was started to be used in Nam by Hathcock and Co). Its only recently that mfrs have started custom-creating weapons around the .50 round.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 20 Aug 2009 23:28

hi K Prasad,

Apparently, not only are they designing weapons around the .50 calibre, they are also developing the round first and then building a weapon based on the round:

@ 2:24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpRHdjBj5ZI

The longest sniper kill happened when a Canadian while fighting in Afghanistan ran out of ammo and had to use the american ammo. After which he was able to make kills at a longer distance including the longest shot ever.

@1:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q76G7F4 ... re=related

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Aug 2009 23:38

^^ moved to the correct thread. vijay, you might be interested in the first page of this thread.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 Aug 2009 09:01

City institute ready with new gun for Army
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... my/504904/

Pune City-based Armaments Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) is giving the final touches to a modern sub-machine carbine (MSMC) for the Indian Army. The final trials for this 5.56 mm calibre MSMC will be conducted in December this year.

A carbine is a lightweight compact automatic gun with a small barrel; unlike a rifle it fires rapidly and is suitable for close quarter combats.

At present, the Indian Army, paramilitary forces, commandos and the police use a Russian origin 9 mm calibre carbine, which is fairly ancient.

“We are in the process of proving 99.7 per cent reliability for the MSMC. The user will be able to fire up to 200 metres using the MSMC,” said ARDE director Anil M Datar.

The MSMC programme has its origins in the Indian Small Arms System family, which was started in 1982 in a bid to build an indigenous small arms weapons system for India. By 1987, the ARDE had designed the Rifle, the Light Machine Gun (LMG) and the carbine — all part of the INSAS family.

The Army had inducted the INSAS rifle and LMG in 1993; DRDO scientists say it met with a fair amount of success but there were some defects as well, which came to light after the Kargil war.

“The rifle and the LMG was first put to test during Kargil. After that, based on the battlefield experiences, we developed a new version — the INSAS 1B1” said R S Rao, joint director, INSAS, ARDE.

But it was the INSAS carbine that fell through, right from the start. “For the carbine, the ammunition was very powerful. It had higher sound, flash, and recoil effect,” said S V Gade, joint director, INSAS, ARDE. “With the MSMC, we have now changed the length of the ammunition. It is still a 5.6 mm calibre bullet, but it is slightly shorter in length, thereby eliminating the drawbacks of the earlier carbine.”

Finally, the INSAS carbine plan was shelved and in 2002, the Army devised a new set of General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR) for the new MSMC, he said.

“Since 2006, when the first prototype was devised, the MSMC has been put through every possible scenario that the Army could conceive of.”

The first trial of the prototype was held in 2006, then 2007-end and the last one was in January 2009.

Ranjan · Post by **Ranjan** » 21 Aug 2009 09:19

Looks like a cross between a Uzi and INSAS.

Can we get better pics from guru logs...

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 21 Aug 2009 09:55

MSMG has lot firsts for India. It is first Indian gun to have plastic receiver, picatinny rail and build to take holographic sight as primary sight. Its features are more in Line with P90 and MP7.

I wonder how it is field stripped, If the top cover is again hinged like INSAS then it will lead to problems.

Frankly the trend world over is to use std 5.56x45 round in carbine by modifying the round if required. I think DRDO should also pursue the line of developing better (less flash faster burning) 5.56mm x 45 round (see my above post)

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 21 Aug 2009 10:05

k prasad wrote:AFAIK, Vidwansak is only being used by the BSF in IB areas for use against Puke bunkers when the ceasefire breaks down.

Its too heavy to lug around. The M107 on the other hand, is light (relatively) and can be carried by one guy, or easily by a two man sniper team.

Incidentally, the .50 cal seems to be the most popular long range round for a long time (since it was started to be used in Nam by Hathcock and Co). Its only recently that mfrs have started custom-creating weapons around the .50 round.

There was some talk that IA was thinking of Gepard-2 from hungary

koti · Post by **koti** » 21 Aug 2009 21:05

^^ IIRC Gepard is already in use by IA.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 21 Aug 2009 23:04

MSMC is more of a police weapon and should be mass produced to be issued to police department. I think army needs a full power round even for carbine and Kalantak, if it works will be better in this role

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Aug 2009 23:07

this version of MSMC looks a lot different from its original avatar. much more refined.

RM, are full auto carbines really needed by police forces in India ? in 95% cases the SLR or INSAS will suffice IMHO. carbines can go to the select HR/QRTs.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Aug 2009 23:22

Rahul M wrote:this version of MSMC looks a lot different from its original avatar. much more refined.

RM, are full auto carbines really needed by police forces in India ? in 95% cases the SLR or INSAS will suffice IMHO. carbines can go to the select HR/QRTs.

Weren't many of the police forces in cities trying to create their own commando/SWAT teams. The MSMC seems to be a good weapon for them, although IMO a 9mm SMG like the good old MP5 would be more suitable.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Aug 2009 23:32

exactly, that's what I meant.

RM, are full auto carbines really needed by police forces in India ? in 95% cases the SLR or INSAS will suffice IMHO. carbines can go to the select HR/QRTs.
{HR/QRT means hostage rescue/quick reaction teams}

normal armed police in most cases needs to fire in the air a couple of times a year. INSAS is pretty good for that role. the single fire option of the INSAS would also be perfect for law enforcement use in crowded cities.

carbines of the MSMC category are meant to spray bullets in enclosed spaces, they would be extremely lethal to civilians in crowded cities if they end up in the hands of poorly trained pandus.
accuracy of the INSAS (by design it is an easier firearm to aim than the carbine) will also serve police forces well.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Aug 2009 23:52

The idea behind it seems to be something along the lines of the Heckler and Koch HK53.

I have always wondered about where that gun would find practical use.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Aug 2009 00:23

more like an uzi or a skorpion.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Aug 2009 00:57

Rahul M wrote:more like an uzi or a skorpion.

The caliber (5.56mm), barrel length (don't know the specs but seems long based on the pic) and claimed range (200m) suggests otherwise.
They really intend this to be a replacement for the sterling in IA service with additional use in police forces.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Aug 2009 01:13

MSMC

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Aug 2009 01:17

Gagan,
The new pic posted above seems to be slightly different (more refined?) from those older ones.

Srivastav · Post by **Srivastav** » 22 Aug 2009 05:24

Wonder why the trigger guard is so big...very interesting though. I wish some of our DDM can do more research on this and post some relevant details. Personally i see this being a good weapon for VIP protection, QRT's and eventually replacing the H&K MP4's and MP5's we have.

Ranjan · Post by **Ranjan** » 22 Aug 2009 07:02

Srivastav wrote:Wonder why the trigger guard is so big...very interesting though. I wish some of our DDM can do more research on this and post some relevant details. Personally i see this being a good weapon for VIP protection, QRT's and eventually replacing the H&K MP4's and MP5's we have.

Thats for the ease of changing the magazine while still holding the weapon. When you are changing the magazine you need to take your finger off the trigger and hold the grip completely. Since it is a short weapon having the smaller trigger guard it can be bit clumsy affair...however with a large guard such as the one in the pic it is easier. Also it is easy to operate with gloves on in extreme cold areas where gloves will have to be worn due to intense cold.