International Naval News & Discussion

[SivaVijay]

China's ASBM could revolutionise naval anti-carrier warfare.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hticbm ... 90701.aspx

Naval Supremacy Without Ships
July 1, 2009: For the last six years, Chinese military planners have been openly discussing the development of an ASBM (an anti-ship ballistic missile) .

By using DF-21 China will greatly reduce the nuclear threshold for one.
The practicality of a ASBM is still debated moreso it is not something that others can't catchup (The US has the "pershing"), and if so China can for all practical purposes forget putting foot on Taiwan, coz unkil will start hitting every chinese vessel sailing into the strait IMVHO.

added later: On a later thought, I remember Dr.Sivathanu Pillai saying that India has developed maneoverable reentry vehicles(This was circa 2004 I was in college then and he was there for a lecture). Now how good is that to make a ASBM of our own, coz AFAICS it is the reentry vehicle that holds the key.

[vavinash]

One would have to be an absolute idiot to believe crap like that. stratpage is as reliable as pravda or national enquirer.

[Singha]

to make the radar work its reentry speed cannot be too high. SAMs will be able to track and target.

[Willy]

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories227.htm

6 aircraft carriers for the Russians. Everyone has ambitions. Reports are around that the Chinese will build 4-5 carriers. Also there's mention of 5 carriers from time to time. Hope they are true carriers above 60000 and not the itsy bitsy ones that are being built. But then when has to learn to walk before one can run

[rohiths]

In my opinion ASBMs can at max target aircraft carriers. There will be a trade off between reentry velocity and accuracy. If the re-entry velocity is too less(<Mach 3) then unkil's SAMs can easily take out the ASBMs. If the re-entry velocity is too high then accuracy will be compromised.
The only viable way ASBMs will work is to aim nuclear tipped anti ship ballistic missiles on US carrier battle groups.
ASBMs may just be a psychological weapon at best.

[Gerard]

Israel sends sub through Suez Canal

[Gerard]

Sub damaged in fatal crash rejoins fleet in S.D.

photo of damage

[Igorr]

My pics from IMDS-2009 Naval Show in Russia:

[b_patel]

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories227.htm

6 aircraft carriers for the Russians. Everyone has ambitions. Reports are around that the Chinese will build 4-5 carriers. Also there's mention of 5 carriers from time to time. Hope they are true carriers above 60000 and not the itsy bitsy ones that are being built. But then when has to learn to walk before one can run

Are they building real carriers or, the "Carriers" they had during the Soviet Union. 6 seems way too ambitious for Russia they haven't built a carrier in decades. China is more likely to build one first.

[Philip]

Siva,we did discuss this when Dhanush arrived,whether it also had an anti-shipping capability.The jury is still out on that.

[Austin]

My pics from IMDS-2009 Naval Show in Russia:

Excellent pics Igorr Please water mark those pics so that you get due credit.

[Gerard]

EB To Repair Sub Damaged In Strait

http://www.courant.com/media/photo/2009-07/48003614.jpg

The collision caused extensive damage to the Hartford's sail, periscope and retractable port-side bow plane.

[Baljeet]

Reports are around that the Chinese will build 4-5 carriers. Also there's mention of 5 carriers from time to time. Hope they are true carriers above 60000 and not the itsy bitsy ones that are being built. But then when has to learn to walk before one can run

Let chinese have 5 Carriers, who really cares. At a cost of over a $4 Billion and operating cost of $200 Million let them have their glory. Just because media has hyped their economic miracle doesn't mean it is all glitters. Their export oriented economy is taking hit, there is no sustenance model based on domestic consumption. China is eons behind japan in technology, innovation, basic R&D infrastructure. They may be publishing alot of papers in different journals but how much or many of them have any substance. As a friend of mine who works for IAIS said, chinese are diligent in commenting on policy papers but the content, and substance are total crap. None of their comments are ever incorporated in any policy decisions.

So I say to chinese, please build up as many carriers as you want and some more. It will take 5-10 yrs to develop tactics, traning, policies, strategy.

JMT

[Vinito]

Reports are around that the Chinese will build 4-5 carriers. Also there's mention of 5 carriers from time to time. Hope they are true carriers above 60000 and not the itsy bitsy ones that are being built. But then when has to learn to walk before one can run

Let chinese have 5 Carriers, who really cares. At a cost of over a $4 Billion and operating cost of $200 Million let them have their glory. Just because media has hyped their economic miracle doesn't mean it is all glitters. Their export oriented economy is taking hit, there is no sustenance model based on domestic consumption. China is eons behind japan in technology, innovation, basic R&D infrastructure. They may be publishing alot of papers in different journals but how much or many of them have any substance. As a friend of mine who works for IAIS said, chinese are diligent in commenting on policy papers but the content, and substance are total crap. None of their comments are ever incorporated in any policy decisions.

So I say to chinese, please build up as many carriers as you want and some more. It will take 5-10 yrs to develop tactics, traning, policies, strategy.

JMT

To begin with, the Chinese must have learnt quite a lot from the "Varyag" which was the Kuznetsov's sister ship and was never completed but sold to a Chinese company and finally ended up in the hands of the Chinese Navy. Given the manner in which they have studied the ship it may not come across as a surprise if they modify the Varyag as their first carrier or build one on similar lines. Although the ship lacks the vital electronics the overall structure can be modified with Chinese electronics and armaments. there was also a report that the Chinese had been negotiating to buy Russian Su-33 fighters which they may use on this carrier once completed.

The experience can definitely enable them to churn out carriers faster than the Indians as we are still learning the tricks of the trade whereas they have a complete ship on which they can base their design.

[NRao]

To begin with, the Chinese must have learnt quite a lot from the "Varyag" which was the Kuznetsov's sister ship and was never completed but sold to a Chinese company and finally ended up in the hands of the Chinese Navy.

Supposed to be a front for the PLA!!! A bunch of liars that they all are.

Given the manner in which they have studied the ship it may not come across as a surprise if they modify the Varyag as their first carrier or build one on similar lines. Although the ship lacks the vital electronics the overall structure can be modified with Chinese electronics and armaments.

Supposedly they also hired a ton of Russians to assist them.

However, no matter what, they still have to learn to launch from a bucking deck?

As the earlier poster stated - 5-10 years. I would add at the very least.

Even IN, with TWO carrier experience, had to send pilots to the US to train to land on the Gorky!!!!

[Samay]

My pics from IMDS-2009 Naval Show in Russia:

Igorr ,from your collection --vv
http://yfrog.com/0wimgp2517lj
Did you snapped yourself

[Austin]

Close up view of Russian B-90 Sarov which is powered by Hybrid Propulsion

B-90 Sarov

[Austin]

Russia outwitted U.S. strategic defenses with missile test

"The American radars certainly detected the missile launches but their location took them by surprise," the source said.

The first missile, flying a ballistic path, hit its designated target at the Kura testing grounds on the Kamchatka Peninsula, while the second, fired with a flat trajectory, destroyed a target at the Chizha testing site on the White Sea.

The source said that the launch area, covered by ice floe, was heavily patrolled by Russian attack submarines and the Americans were unable to detect the arrival of two strategic submarines before the launch.

"At the same time, U.S. reconnaissance satellites are unable to detect submarines under thick ice floe in the Arctic," he said.

[Philip]

http://sev.prnewswire.com/aerospace-def ... 009-1.html

Lockheed Martin to Upgrade U.S. Navy Submarine Communication Mast Antenna Systems

MARION, Mass., July 15 /PRNewswire/ -- Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) , in a joint venture with Granite State Manufacturing (GSM), received a $6.9 million contract from the U.S. Navy to design, test and manufacture an upgraded Multifunction Mast Antenna System to improve submarine communications.

Excerpt:
Currently, all U.S. Navy submarines operating at periscope depth, including the new Virginia-class attack submarines, use the antenna system as their primary method to communicate with aircraft, surface ships and land-based assets. The system - designated the OE-538 - provides high performance, erectable mast-mounted communication and navigation capabilities.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com

[Philip]

Pak is losing patience with Germany.Perhaps our diplomatic pressure is working,as well as Pak's reputation in that country.This may be one factor why the Indo-French Scorpene deal is being delayed.It shows that the country we can depend upon the most is Russia,which is supplying us with a nuclear powered sub and N-sub technology,used in our ATV project.

http://www.tehrantimes.com/Index_view.asp?code=199285

France, Germany vie to sell Pakistan subs
BERLIN (UPI) - Pakistan appears to be losing patience with Germany over a deal worth some $1.5 billion to boost its 10-strong fleet of submarines, or it is playing a reluctant Berlin administration against Paris.

An agreement to supply three U-214 U-boats reportedly has been awaiting a final German signature since details were worked out in a visit to Germany by a Pakistani navy delegation in April. Quoting Pakistani government sources, the Financial Times Deutschland says President Asif Zardari may overrule his military's preference for the German subs to take up a “better offer” from France.

The French have reportedly offered to supply three submarines and to sweeten the deal by upgrading and overhauling older submarines that are already part of the Pakistani fleet. Two years ago French President Jacques Chirac reportedly wrote a personal letter to Pakistan's president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, urging his administration to buy French and offering the prospect of French government support and finance for new hotels and a car manufacturing plant.

The German subs on offer would be built by ThyssenKrupp at its Howaldtswerken shipyard in Kiel. The sale, which would attract low-interest finance from the state-owned KfW, is politically controversial and requires the approval of the German National Security Council, which vets the sale of sensitive military and other equipment, especially to areas of actual or potential conflict and instability.

In response to a preliminary inquiry in 2006, the Council gave a further sale of submarines to Pakistan a tentative green light. That approval raised a storm of political protest for fear that such a sale would add to the existing arms race between India and Pakistan. Last year a number of non-governmental organizations protested the supply to Pakistan of Drone aircraft and torpedoes. Pakistan is also interested in acquiring further German-made tanks and armored vehicles.

In Germany, concerns about supplying arms to Pakistan -- a nuclear power -- are increasing, attracting fears that the country could be destabilized by or even fall into the hands of militant Islamists. There are worries over the reliability of the armed forces with some element of the army said still to be sympathetic to the Taliban.

The issue is potentially divisive even within the governing coalition of Angela Merkel. In 2005 the Defense Ministry led by Franz Josef Jung -- a member of Merkel's center-right Christian Democrats -- negotiated a wide-reaching agreement with Pakistan to cooperate on armaments. A corresponding declaration of intent by the German government was blocked after opposition from Foreign Minister Frank Walter Steinmeier, a Social Democrat and his party's candidate to be chancellor at forthcoming elections, due on Sept. 27.

With weapons for Pakistan currently a hot political potato -- and only likely to get hotter -- the Federal Security Council has deferred taking any decision on the sale, pending the election.

Meanwhile India is in the process of acquiring a nuclear submarine fleet using technology from France, joining the select club of countries with submarine nuclear capability. Currently, they are the five Permanent Members of the UN Security Council: the United States, Russia, China, France and the United Kingdom.

[Austin]

Russian Navy UFO records say aliens love oceans

“Fifty percent of UFO encounters are connected with oceans. Fifteen more – with lakes. So UFOs tend to stick to the water,” he said.

On one occasion a nuclear submarine, which was on a combat mission in the Pacific Ocean, detected six unknown objects. After the crew failed to leave behind their pursuers by maneuvering, the captain ordered to surface. The objects followed suit, took to the air, and flew away.

“On several occasions the instruments gave reading of material objects moving at incredible speed. Calculations showed speeds of about 230 knots, of 400 kph. Speeding so fast is a challenge even on the surface. But water resistance is much higher. It was like the objects defied the laws of physics. There’s only one explanation: the creatures who built them far surpass us in development,” Beketov said.

“Ocean UFOs often show up wherever our or NATO’s fleets concentrate. Near Bahamas, Bermudas, Puerto Rico. They are most often seen in the deepest part of the Atlantic Ocean, in the southern part of the Bermuda Triangle, and also in the Caribbean Sea.”

[NRao]

The French have reportedly offered to supply three submarines and to sweeten the deal by upgrading and overhauling older submarines that are already part of the Pakistani fleet. Two years ago French President Jacques Chirac reportedly wrote a personal letter to Pakistan's president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, urging his administration to buy French and offering the prospect of French government support and finance for new hotels and a car manufacturing plant.

Offsets.

More targets for Jihadis. The cycle will restart. More French subs, more hotels ...............

Oh my. Pakistan. What next?

[John Snow]

built by

Blohm+Voss Hamburg notice the stealth features.

picture taken during recent trip to Simonstown South African naval head quarters

[Philip]

Yes,excellent stealth features,one of these frigates was at Cochin not too long ago.I had a good look at it from the water.

There was no other carrier available,barring the French Clemenceau,riddled with asbestos,etc.The RN Invincible class was not available then and found too small for IN purposes,could operate only VSTOL Harriers,which were no longer in production too.Only the Varyag and the Gorshkov were available.The vision of our decision makers,political and babus then,were not sufficiently focussed enough to plump for the Varyag,whose hull required major work on it.It would've been more expensive too and one must remember that the inter-service rivalry has tried for decades to sink the IN's Fleet Air Arm,just as it is being attempted in the Uk right now! We alkso had the opportunity to acquire many ex-Soviet warships and subs which were simply scrapped which had decades of life left in them.Great opportunity missed.see how the vintage Rajputs are still very deadly with Brahmos aboard.

Here is another example from the PLAN,wherea '50s vintage Golf clas sub is being upgraded and put to good use.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/ ... 90723.aspx

Thirty Year Old SSG Refurbished
July 23, 2009: China's lone Golf class ballistic missile sub has apparently been refurbished, rather than scrapped. These diesel electric boats (SSGs) were introduced by Russia in the late 1950s, and 23 were built by the early 1960s, when attention was turned to nuclear ballistic missile boats (SSBN).

Fourteen Golfs were modified in 1966-72 to carry larger R-21 (1600 kilometer range) missiles. These boats remained in commission until 1990. A few years later, ten were sold to North Korea for scrap. It's not certain that North Korea actually dismantled all these subs. The North Korean No-Dong missiles was based on the R-21.

China received two Golf boats, seven R-11F missiles (a 300 kilometer range SCUD) and the building plans, from Russia in the 1960s, and the Chinese built one in the 1970s, as the JL-2. This boat rarely put to sea. The R-11F was the basis of later Chinese ballistic missile design. The recent refurbishment of the Chinese Golf apparently included changes to the three missile silos so the boat could be used to test new submarine launched ballistic missiles (SLBM).

The Golf was a 2,800 ton boat with a crew of 83 and three missile silos. There were also six torpedo tubes, and during the Cold War, these boats carried two torpedoes with nuclear warheads.

[Viv Sreenivasan]

Theres nothing in the world quite like an American carrier battle group, if the US so inclined just 4 of these battle groups could take on the entire Indian navy and airforce and win. Its pretty awe-inspiring really the power of the american navy.

[nrshah]

Theres nothing in the world quite like an American carrier battle group, if the US so inclined just 4 of these battle groups could take on the entire Indian navy and airforce and win. Its pretty awe-inspiring really the power of the american navy.

Excellent example of hyperbole.

-Nitin

[Kersi D]

Theres nothing in the world quite like an American carrier battle group, if the US so inclined just 4 of these battle groups could take on the entire Indian navy and airforce and win. Its pretty awe-inspiring really the power of the american navy.

4 battle group !!!

I think i battle group can handle the entire armed forces of almost any country except Russia, China, UK, France India Germany etc.

K

[Austin]

Second Yasen-M ( Kazan ) to be laid on July 24th

http://www.rosprom.org/inf.php3?glav=1

Underwater displacement boat project «Ash» - 13600 tons, the maximum length - 199 meters, width - 13.5 meters, depth - 9,4 m, speed - 31 knot, the crew - 90 people. Вооружение: 650 мм и 533 мм пусковые аппараты торпед, ракеты П-800 «Оникс», Х-35, Х-101, ЗМ-54Э, ЗМ-54Э1 «корабль-корабль», ЗМ-14Э «корабль-земля». Armament: 650 mm and 533 mm torpedo launchers vehicles, missiles P-800 «Onyx», X-35, X-101, ЗМ-54E, ЗМ-54E1 «ship-ship», ЗМ-14E «ship-to-ground».

[Singha]

wow 200m is one serious big submarine. its the size of previous gen SSBN.
virginia is around 160m x 7500t

[Austin]

I was thinking the same at ~ 200 m she is 90 m longer than Akula-2 , the other dimension is similar to Akula which is beam ( 13.5 ) and draught ( 9.4 ) . the Akula is a huge SSN by any standards , the lengthened hull perhaps indicates loads of VLS Tubes

Kazan seems to be of improved yasen type
Russia lays down 2nd Graney class nuclear sub

"The second submarine will have improved electronics and fire-control systems, and will be built exclusively with Russian-made materials and components," Sevmash spokeswoman Anastasia Nikitinskaya said.

[Drevin]

Ok I had a question, and it best fits here: The shkval torpedo uses supercavitation tech. How difficult is it technically to build this tech in a submarine

The only difference between the two is that the shkval is unmanned whereas a submarine has people in it. Does speed also matter here

I know there are many naval miltary folk/gurus on here. Does this idea sound feasible considering the obvious military advantages. Would be a game changer of sorts.

[darshhan]

Drevin,Such research has been started by DARPA.however it is still in its preliminary stages.The first phase will study the feasibility of such a concept.By the way I haven't heard of any other country doing this kind of project.For more info.

http://www.afcea.org/signal/articles/te ... zoneid=204

[Drevin]

thanks darshann. The article looks pretty good. Achieving 100knots submerged speed for that long is great.

Outrunning a torpedo is wacko stuff for a sub. thanks for the link again.

[Austin]

Unkil at its best , Virginia Growth Path and Distributed Pumpjet Propulsion

Virginia Planned Block Improvement
Distributed Pumpjet Propulsion

[Singha]

sounds like they will finally accept the truth and move to a akula sail shape.

[Austin]

sounds like they will finally accept the truth and move to a akula sail shape.

The American call it Advanced Sail Concept , finally they admit

[Singha]

dnaindia.com -

First stage of sea trial of Nerpa n-sub for India completed
PTI
Monday, July 27, 2009 16:18 IST


Moscow: Russia has completed the first stage of pre-delivery trials of the Akula-II class 'Nerpa' nuclear-powered attack submarine, which is likely to be operational with the Indian Navy much before New Delhi's indigenous 'INS Arihant'.

The Nerpa submarine will join the Navy by the year-end with the first set of sea trials being completed successfully according to schedule, an official of the Amur Shipyard was quoted as saying by the RIA Novosti today.

But top officials in both Moscow and New Delhi are tight-lipped about the armaments the submarine will carry. While INS Arihant is being armed with 700-km range K-15 nuclear-tipped missiles, it is not known if Nerpa will have Indian or Russian nuclear missiles.

...................

"The (Nerpa) sub is back at the in Bolshoi Kamen (port) in the Maritime Territory, and it is getting ready for the second stage of the scheduled trials," the shipyard official said.

Some special equipment for performance checking and adjustment work will be installed on board the submarine, before it begins the second and final stage of pre-delivery trials.

[Gerard]

SKorea, US team up to build and export Aegis warships

US defence group Lockheed Martin and South Korea's Hyundai Heavy Industries will team up to build and export mid-size warships equipped with advanced Aegis weapons systems, an official said Wednesday.

[kit]

SKorea, US team up to build and export Aegis warships

US defence group Lockheed Martin and South Korea's Hyundai Heavy Industries will team up to build and export mid-size warships equipped with advanced Aegis weapons systems, an official said Wednesday.

They have some very specific clients in mind for the 'classified ' Aegis tech ..namely India...though i would like to know which version of software they use in these 'export' version .. ..USN has gone on to second generation aegis tech

[vavinash]

The P-17a will be design based on IN requirement and DCN consultancy. I doubt IN will fall for this joke. IN's future plans include Barak-2, Brahmos and the MF-STAR not aegis.