INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jul 2009 06:49

I would expect the A2 and A3 to be similar in size and shape but with more advanced equipment internally.

the next class would be based around Akula size and shape methinks and
high on the power T:W factor for the attack sub role - possible 2 of the
A1 reactors or a bigger single reactor of the akulaish mould. the agreement
we signed in 2004 could have paved the path not just for lease but various
new TOT.

anyone noticed the LA688 class and all US subs seem to be perfect
cylindrical shapes while the british, french and german subs seem to
have a flattened wedge type topside. the british new subs all types have
this hydroplane mounted high up in the hull almost at deck level.

virginia is big but almost the front half is taken by torpedo room, VL
array and the sonar sphere. and she has a big reactor.

astute class http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/upload/img_ ... RGB_NO.jpg

virginia did away with the long hydroplanes on sail of 688 class and
went with a small kit further down the hull in conventional place
masha-allah...soon brothers soon
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ima ... way_lg.jpg

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jul 2009 06:54

Vina, Most likely the four K-X (thank god its not Y) could have three payloads to keep the quantity same as K-15s.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 25 Jul 2009 09:49

vina wrote:Good article Arun_S. Maybe you could put a link on that in the BRF page somewhere if it is too painful to make it into HTML.

Which one?

vishwakarma manusthavshta |
stavisthah, sthaviro dhruvah ||

I am not that learned, could you also provide translation?

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 25 Jul 2009 09:59

Arun_S wrote:My sources said three Chakra's (Akula) are coming.

Three Akulas were reported by Vayu also long time back

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Jul 2009 10:03

In 2005, the UPA Government gave an in-principle clearance for building a follow-on series of larger ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), costing nearly Rs 8,000 crore a piece or nearly twice that of the current series of ATVs and another line of nuclear-powered fast attack submarines (SSNs) to escort them

Would assume that the bolded part is the next set of Scorpenes being fitted with N-reactors which many well connected BRFites (like jaladic) keep mentioning.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Jul 2009 10:05

Scorpene + Nuclear Reactor = = Rubis like N Sub.

Is that why the price escalation and delay in negotiations occured? And now there is apparantly a delay in 'absorbing' some technology.
Any possible relation to the Indo-US nuclear deal ?

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 25 Jul 2009 10:27

ramana wrote:Vina, Most likely the four K-X (thank god its not Y) could have three payloads to keep the quantity same as K-15s.

IMVHO, the confign will sport heterogeneous warheads in the nose cone; a mix of (redesigned and untested) TN warhead and Boosted fission warheads.

-- The highest MIRV count for the missile will be 12 (of the boosted fission variety (I have that referenced from press report in BR Agni page) but a cutshort length Agni-SL that K-X is will have range of only ~2,000 km with that kind of payload.

-- Similarly 3x high yield FBF OR mix of two untested TN and two high yield FBF will go ~2600 Km.
-- or 4 warheads consisting of two untested TN and two medium yield FBF will take to ~3300 km.
-- or 3 warheads of untested TN will take to ~3,800 km. {Given untested nature of TN this configuration is highly unlikely}
-- or 2 warheads of untested TN will take to ~4,900 km. {Given untested nature of TN this configuration is highly unlikely}

{ approximate range for assumed 2 m diameter K-X configuration}

click for larger image...

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 25 Jul 2009 10:52

Ok so we can get a glimpse of INS Arihant by this time tomorrow. woot. Just for fun sake we should have a countdown 1 hour prior to the event.

Any takers

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Jul 2009 11:44

ajai shukla says no media coverage. we will have to wait for PIB handouts then.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 25 Jul 2009 11:51

In that case we have to assume THIS is the best description we can obtain.
The description in the IT article has omitted the towed array sonar.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jul 2009 11:55

PTI news people always accompany PM/Presi on tour anywhere in India.
hope atleast some pix after due scanning will be realeased.

I do agree its a bad idea to let a NDTV or CNN news crew loose inside the
SBC given their despicable lack of control & common sense seen in 26/11
and the tendency of the site reporters to shout and talk continuously without making much sense.

hopefully DD-1 crew will also be inside the ring.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2009 11:56

vina wrote:Speed = 26 Max (maybe 30 submerged , if the 5000 hp more over the Charlie II is true) = 21 Max (surfaced , ok max 23-24 , I doubt more than that , because of the increased fineness ratio over the charlie II)

Are you sure about that Max surfaced speed of ATV at 21 max ?

The 5,270T Charlie 2 which ATV would closely represent in displacement , could do 24 knots submerged and ~ 12 knot surfaced

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jul 2009 11:59

maybe the 21 knot is theoritical on calm lake water? the whale shape creates a huge bow wave and turbulence looking at pics.

vina · Post by **vina** » 25 Jul 2009 13:30

Are you sure about that Max surfaced speed of ATV at 21 max ?

The 5,270T Charlie 2 which ATV would closely represent in displacement , could do 24 knots submerged and ~ 12 knot surfaced

I am factoring in the reported 5000 shp over the Charlie II, that is a big 1/3rd more powering. Also add to that the lower block coefficient, if the sub is really designed at around 500 tons less than the Charlie II (around 10% less displacement), for a similar lenght and breadth (and draught). If both of those are true, you will see 21 knots , maybe 23 knots surfaced.

maybe the 21 knot is theoritical on calm lake water? the whale shape creates a huge bow wave and turbulence looking at pics.

I would bet that you are a very very good engineer. You have great instincts. Yes. the design speed is ALWAYS "theoretical " calm water conditions of "unlimited" depth. In real world in calm open seas , the best you can realize is 2 to 3 knots below "theoretical" as you put it. That is why the proving trials are a high tension nail biting thing for the constructor and designer. You need to be able to prove the max speed you contracted for in real world conditions. So you actually design 2 to 3 knots more "theoretical" speed.

Yes. Your observation on "huge bow wave and turbulence" is correct as well. In a surface ship, you would design the front section with a very fine "entrance" , basically starting with a point, the sections widen along the waterline gradually and for high speed boats like frigates/destroyers etc, the max width is well past the middle, and coverges gradually to the end. While that is fine for a surface ship, in a submarine, since ther is no wave making, you to design the front part "fat and full" .. The submarien is actually sort of like a "base ball bat" . So more a Louisville Slugger than anything else. Now while that performs brilliantly under water, on the surface, it is a terrible design disadvantage and will have much higher wave making resistance than a normaly desigined surface ship. Will be sort of like a Paki dragging his goats behind him thethered, but with those goats fighting to get away!.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 25 Jul 2009 13:35

Tomorrow, this time, INS Arihant would have been launched and BR Chennai meet will raise a toast and cheer Jai Hind! The only place where BR jingoes will come together and are going to meet to mark this significant event. All you other jingoes, can feel jealous!

Here is wishing for a good launch and successful completion of trials. Kudos to the entire team and to the political leadership, including the Honourable PM of India Shri Manmohan Singhji for their great contribution and consistent support to this project. Thank you Sirji!

Shanno Varuna!

vina · Post by **vina** » 25 Jul 2009 14:03

Which one?

The K-15 / Shaurya thing. Just put a link for that somewhere.

Quote:
vishwakarma manusthavshta |
stavisthah, sthaviro dhruvah ||

I am not that learned, could you also provide translation?

That was a shloka from the Vishu Sahasranamam. Google around for it, I am sure there is a translation of that online somewhere. Nice words about Yingineers /Creators (if I may take the poetic / interpretation license, after all, what is the fun in reading all those texts literally like a Talibunny Paki and saying that anyone who doesnt read it literally is "innovation" and you are liable to get your neck chopped?)

Ok. editing. Here is one such Translation , a pretty good one I think. Just scroll down to Stanza 6 .

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 25 Jul 2009 14:06

24 Hours. Cant wait any longer.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 25 Jul 2009 14:11

Venkarl wrote:...
And Gurulog, why is that "S73" on the submarine? ...

Come on guyz...is there a meaning behind S73 number?

I still wonder why senior BRFites still respond to Andrew's posts...anyways..your pleasure is not my business..

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 25 Jul 2009 14:18

Guys "News 24" is showing clip of Arihant in Dry Dock... !!!... just got a glimpse..with grey cover for sonar housing..I am waiting for the rerun.. (I hope so..)
Tune it...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2009 14:24

I have doubts of 5000 shp over Charlie 2 , more over Charlie was a CBG hunter , speed was a critical factor which ofcourse they could not manage with a single reactor at max ~ 24 knots , they needed someting over 30 Knots to keep up with CBG , hence was born the Oscar.

The news is media is allowed for ATV launch but no camera or mobile phones allowed , so some of those chaps need to be a good artist

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jul 2009 14:31

I am sure via PTI/PIB some careful controlled pix will be released tomorrow. else there was no point in pre-announcing it and having the PM visit the place. they could as well have done it silently.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 25 Jul 2009 14:36

Inside the SBC , no cams,no phones are allowed. To the best of my knowledge i presume only DD-1 may be allowed.

In my visit to SBC,i have never seen an camera even operated by Navy Chaps as some of the electronics devices interfeare with the frequency of the motors which are under use in the ATV.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2009 14:41

Inside SBC with no camera should be fine , when when ATV is rolled out of SBC for the name ceremony , camera should not be a problem or else no point in calling the media.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 25 Jul 2009 14:45

Better Indian Navy take some snaps and distribute it to the media.

No media is required.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 25 Jul 2009 15:02

pkudva wrote:Better Indian Navy take some snaps and distribute it to the media.

No media is required.

Yendeeteevee types are better kept away from the scene. Photographs released to the media after the event should be enough.

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 25 Jul 2009 15:19

Dilbu wrote:
pkudva wrote:Better Indian Navy take some snaps and distribute it to the media.

No media is required.
Yendeeteevee types are better kept away from the scene. Photographs released to the media after the event should be enough.

This is all ok but they should atlease release a pic or 2 for us all to celebrate

. I dont care who takes teh photos. We have waited a long long long time for this blessed event.

But i agree no NDTV or CNN guys should be allowed. Good old DD is quite acceptable though.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 25 Jul 2009 15:33

I still remember the crtisicism these media chaps gave us especially with respect to the delay.But no one was thinking on the ways that we are doing it for the first time.

Now problems are over and hope all the trails are over and the boat is handed over to Indian Navy safely.

We are confident that once this ship goes,the next one will come at the earliest but that too will have lots of inputs from atv-1.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 25 Jul 2009 15:40

Does anyone know the exact time (muhurtam) of the launch in IST? Want to arrange a small celebration with my friends at the same time.

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Jul 2009 15:50

Dammit...the wait is killing, esp with channels running the ATV story over and over again.

The goosebumps after reading the Sandeep article( regarding our next SSBN etc being sanctioned) are yet to subside. I eagerly await the day when i will see clips of an Indian made carrier leading a CBG with all Indian ships in it and Indian make hunter-killer SSNs prowling around it while couple of lone wolf Indian SSBNs float around near the south pole with their own SSN escorts.

Damn, here come the goosebumps again..

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Jul 2009 16:15

In 2005, the UPA Government gave an in-principle clearance for building a follow-on series of larger ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), costing nearly Rs 8,000 crore a piece or nearly twice that of the current series of ATVs and another line of nuclear-powered fast attack submarines (SSNs) to escort them.

If clearance was given in 2005, is it safe to assume that even these projects have progressed quite a bit since it has been 4 years?
Or are they waiting for results from the ATV to start off with the next step?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jul 2009 16:30

the designs would surely have been firmed up. hopefully we got some oscar and akula design details too on cash-n-carry basis from Putin sir's SSN walmart

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 25 Jul 2009 16:44

Everything has been finalised for the next 2 and fabrication is under advanced stage. It was due to this boat everything was delayed. But money matter was there in this case also but again it has been taken care now and we have made them happy.

The design of 4th and 5th is under progress.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 25 Jul 2009 17:03

most likely 2nd is ready in Hazira will take the present atv 1 position after she is laucnhed for h trail and no3 is under fabrication expcted to be complete in 2 years times -some one may confirm if i have the right news

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 25 Jul 2009 17:07

What would be the displacement of ATV-2/3 if the designs are frozen?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2009 17:35

Rather silly question here..

A few years ago we on BRF were all a-tizzy at the news of the ATVs rector going critical or something. At that time we were busy scouring Google Earth pics around Chennai. Now suddenly that reactor appears to have turned up inside the ATV in Vizag. When/how did this occur?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 25 Jul 2009 17:41

About a year and a half ago (IIRC) someone posted a local news snippet about high security around the SBC as the reactor was moved in.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2009 18:31

Singha wrote:the designs would surely have been firmed up. hopefully we got some oscar and akula design details too on cash-n-carry basis from Putin sir's SSN walmart

Cash is not necessary a motivating factor here , it is not like the case of Paki giving cash to Noko to get stuff , where the giver is desperate to get the hands on stuff they cannot develop and receiver is in dire straits to get any a sight of green buck so desperately needed.

It is the willingness of the nation to help in such strategic project which matters , as Sandeep article states that SU had expressed such intentions since 80's and Indira was more than willing.

So $500 million or $ 5 billion can just be a token amount for the help provided , since with all effort BARC couldn't do the reactor job to the satisfaction of navy and time was a factor .

I am sure Chinkis would be more than willing to spend couple of billions to get hold of Akula-2 type technology to leap from to 3.5 Gen sub technology if Russi would oblige to it.

The Akula deal has some good intentions and a larger agenda as I have been told

maz · Post by **maz** » 25 Jul 2009 19:00

Significance of the S-73 pennant:

1. Being that old Chakra was S-71, new Chakra (Nerpa/Akula) should also be S-71, so if S-73 is indeed the correct pennant for ATV-1, then it means there's a S-72 Akula in the works... OR

2. It could mean a break in the number sequence as in S-63 and S-65 for last EKM boat .... OR

3. It is only for those in the know to know these things.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 25 Jul 2009 19:20

S-72 seems like a silent salute to a boat that never left terra firma but was still the mother of the S-73. Remember the LCA team built the Iron Bird before they build the TD's.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 25 Jul 2009 19:49

maz wrote:Significance of the S-73 pennant:

1. Being that old Chakra was S-71, new Chakra (Nerpa/Akula) should also be S-71, so if S-73 is indeed the correct pennant for ATV-1, then it means there's a S-72 Akula in the works... OR

2. It could mean a break in the number sequence as in S-63 and S-65 for last EKM boat .... OR

3. It is only for those in the know to know these things.

or S-72 might have been reserved for the Nerpa that would join IN soon