INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Jul 2009 21:38

http://pib.nic.in/release/photogallary.asp

coconut here

coconut in hi-res

http://pib.nic.in/photo/2009/Jul/l2009072623704.jpg

Smt. Gursharan Kaur, wife of the Prime Minister, Dr. Manmohan Singh breaking the auspicious coconut on the hull of the 6,000 tonne submarine, INS Arihant marking its launch, at Visakhapatnam on July 26, 2009

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 26 Jul 2009 21:41

Vice Admiral AK Singh, former commander of INS Chakra, tells NDTV that he is not surprised at the secrecy and that he expects photos of INS Arihant in water, where it reveals less, to be eventually released. Just not in the assembly area, where the Russian and US navies also display secrecy.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Jul 2009 21:49

I'm sure those people are so grateful for another copy of the PIB coconut photos and will welcome the email offers that arise from publication of their emails on a web page.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Jul 2009 21:56

Comrades the coconut is already broken (notice the prominent dark line in the pic ) and for obvious reasons .

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 26 Jul 2009 21:57

L&T wrote:In addition to being the country’s first nuclear-powered indigenous submarine, the new vessel is also the largest and heaviest vessel ever built in India.

This makes it seem like the sub will be closer to 7000 tons than 6000. The Delhi class at 6700 tons hold the current record for being the largest and heaviest vessel built in India.

Jaylal · Post by **Jaylal** » 26 Jul 2009 22:00

Did anyone come across a timeframe for rolling out the next several ATVs? With L&T involved, I don't see why the gov't cannot become more ambitious and establish two parallel assembly lines going simultaneously.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 26 Jul 2009 22:15

After waiting anxiously for what seems an eternity, staying up till 3 Am Eastern Standard Time and sifting thru 20 pages all I get is a clear shot of A.K Antony's lungi

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jul 2009 22:18

pandyan wrote:Congratulations to all on this remarkable day!

P.S: shivaroor has published all his email secrets...right below the pictures....

that's not shiv aroor's email secrets, that's the MOD PR dept distribution list of journalists.

negi sahab, if you watch the video you will find that the coconut is broken in front of the sub's hull, as I had expected.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 26 Jul 2009 22:19

vera_k wrote:
L&T wrote:In addition to being the country’s first nuclear-powered indigenous submarine, the new vessel is also the largest and heaviest vessel ever built in India.
This makes it seem like the sub will be closer to 7000 tons than 6000. The Delhi class at 6700 tons hold the current record for being the largest and heaviest vessel built in India.

It is likely that the Bangalore class is larger than the 6,700 T Delhi class. So INS Arihnat must be ~~ 7,000 T

K

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2009 22:19

Well dont expect GOI to show any thing , but selected jurnos in media and others have seen it , so probably we can expect India Today/Sandeep/Headlines Today/Shiv Aroor to come up with real ATV stuff sooner

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Jul 2009 22:20

Rahul M wrote:negi sahab, if you watch the video you will find that the coconut is broken in front of the sub's hull, as I had expected.

There is video of the coconut?

Let us hope that Vishnu Som was there and gives us a detailed report

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jul 2009 22:23

so till now austin's inputs are the best info we have !

thanks !

gerard, I watched it on TV, I think it was headlines today.

Ranvijay · Post by **Ranvijay** » 26 Jul 2009 22:24

The BBC has this pic..

Apologies if this has already been posted.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Jul 2009 22:27

Foxtrot

George J · Post by **George J** » 26 Jul 2009 22:28

It's it NOT a Lungi...its a Mundu. Mundu is white-cotton with/without zari embellishment, Lungi is technicolor....Lungi is for casual lounging, Mundu is business casual/formal. (I tell you these Mallus are crazy!!!)

Also the coconut is PRE-SCORED (the line) which makes it a ready to break coconut...usually yielding two equal halves if done right. Also in the high res pic you can see the metal bar on which Mrs. Singh is going to break it.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 26 Jul 2009 22:29

Can we calculate the secrets of the ATV Hull by taking into account the force needed to break the coconut? Would you need to feed in the parameters of Mrs Singh's arm strength and angle of attack in delivering the coconut?

sarcasm mode

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jul 2009 22:32

well, we can guess ATV hull's crush pressure from the fact that the coconut was pre-crushed.
simple deduction :
crush pressure of coconut > crush pressure of ATV hull !

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 26 Jul 2009 22:33

I love the secrecy around this SSBN. All the press is showing the Kursura Museum, evey one of them!

Hope they develop the technology completey outside the box with surprises galore!

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 26 Jul 2009 22:36

Vice Admiral AK Singh, former commander of INS Chakra, tells NDTV that he is not surprised at the secrecy and that he expects photos of INS Arihant in water, where it reveals less, to be eventually released. Just not in the assembly area, particularly given Russia's desire for secrecy among other reasons.

Interview with Vice Admiral A K Singh (Retd), ex-Captain, INS Chakra

Amitabh
He said the govt did the right thing by not releasing the pics like the Russians and US.Your post is implying that the govt didn't release the pics because of Russians.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 26 Jul 2009 22:36

I had first posted about the pump jet propulsor (as a joke counterpoint to Austin's postings and a recurrent dream I have of the ATV having one...). I hope I am still correct. Anyhow, congrats to all involved in the design and construction. Also, to all the BR folks. I've been on this site since the time of Kargil so for me too it is a great triple anniversary. The victory and sacrifice in Kargil, the emergence of the Arihant and my ten year BR Lurker/Poster anniversary. And of course a hearty thanks to all of the Indian and Russian public and private partnerships to make the Arihant come to life. Good luck to all and if there BR type people in Iowa (University of Iowa area), we can have a mini meet/celebration. Please do contact me.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 26 Jul 2009 22:36

Rahul M wrote:so till now austin's inputs are the best info we have !
thanks !

gerard, I watched it on TV, I think it was headlines today.

Pkudva too...thanks again...verry verry happies

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 22:40

Newbies and DDM, please update your Submarine Gyaan.

Submarines that India has:

Foxtrot class: This is the one on static display at vishakapatnam The S-20 Kursura.

U-209 Sub: Shishumar Class: 4 in service

Kilo: Sindhughosh class Total 10: 8 are type 877, 2 are type 636.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarines Under construction:

Scorpene: Total 6 planned, 3 under construction.

Akula-2 Nuclear Powered submarine: 1 undergoing trials in Russia.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ATV: INS Arihant: 1 launched. 2 under construction. Total=3. To be followed by 7 more N-powered subs = total 10 by 2020. (As per announcement by PIB)

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 Jul 2009 22:44

k prasad wrote:
rohiths wrote:Using simple physics and approximating that the sub is a cylinder with length of 112 m and radius of atleast 5m and the fact that a submarine should stay submerged we get a displacement of 3.14*112*25 tons which is 8792 tons.(density of water =1ton per cubic metre)
The lower bound for sub's displacement is 8000 tons (provided it is 112m long)
How did u get the 25 tons sirjee?? PI * (10 m ^2) *90 m * 1 ton/m3 = 28k tons... doesn't compute. I took 90 m length to compensate for the tapering tail side.

And how can we extrapolate from submerged to dry displacement?? Arun saar... any nifty calculations here plz..

based on current information:

length: 110 m
Diameter: 11 m
Surface displacement: 6,000 tonne
Power: 85 MWthermal

My calculations indicate the following:
True displacement: ~6,800 tonne
Max speed: 25 Knots
Surface speed: 13 Knots

The 11 m dia indicate that it can only take a 2 m dia missile with 1.5 stages. So the reports of 3,500 km range of K-X is correct. The key unknown parameter for K-X is what is the payload for which the range is 3,500 km. My calcs show it is for ~1,100 kg payload.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2009 22:45

The point is jurnos were there, granted they were barred from cameras/cell etc , but how many of these jurnos understand submarine and more importantly nuclear submarine ,so even if these guy/gals saw the real stuff which they did , they should be intelligent enough to ask the right question to Naval staff around , analyse and present it.

Ok I am not questioning these jurnos knowledge , they may very well know quite a lot , but looking at past reporting they dont inspire confidence.

Hence I expect the intelligent jurnos from India Today or Hindu to report on the real stuff.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 22:46

There is supposed to be a small hump to accomodate the missile section. Depending on how big a hump that is, the missile size could vary. But ~ 11m is as good as any estimate at this point.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 22:46

Austin-ji, how accurate is my description?

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 26 Jul 2009 22:47

I think that the note of thanks to Russians and presence of hundred + Russians there may point to a very advanced design for India. I think that India may have decided to combine SSN + SSBN lines for our use to produce Arihant. Progressively its weight may grow but we may have around 10 multipurpose nuke subs.

If the surface displacement is 6800 tons then the submerged displacement will be something like 9000 tons?

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 26 Jul 2009 22:51

Thanks to Austin and Kanson ..... for the most timely info. The ATV is one heck of a machine. Jai Hind.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 Jul 2009 22:53

Raj saab: by True displacement = 6,800 I meant submerged displacement.
That submerged displacement is based on comparative physical parameters of other types of similar submarines.

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 26 Jul 2009 22:54

A Sharma wrote:Interview with Vice Admiral A K Singh (Retd), ex-Captain, INS Chakra

Amitabh
He said the govt did the right thing by not releasing the pics like the Russians and US.Your post is implying that the govt didn't release the pics because of Russians.

You are correct. My phrasing is misleading. Will edit for the record.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Jul 2009 22:54

Power: 85 MW thermal

T.S. Subramaniam report in the Hindu says

Highly enriched uranium will power the reactor which has a capacity of 80 MWe

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2009 22:58

I doubt they will use HEU , most likely LEU and it wont be 80 MW(e) but 80 MW(t)

George J · Post by **George J** » 26 Jul 2009 23:00

A Sharma wrote: Interview with Vice Admiral A K Singh (Retd), ex-Captain, INS Chakra...............

Probably one of the best defense interviews I have seen in a long time. Very insightful without revealing much. For jingos who have evolved beyond sniffing brochures.....there is a LOT of work that needs to be done at the NCA even after the sub is fully operational.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2009 23:03

Gagan your guess is as good as mine , so you could be right.

I am interested in knowing how do they maintain such tight secrecy , considering there are scores of Indian , Russian and Defence personal involved , yet nothing much leaked out till the end , how do they manage such big projects with secrecy.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 Jul 2009 23:05

Gerard wrote:
Power: 85 MW thermal
T.S. Subramaniam report in the Hindu says
Highly enriched uranium will power the reactor which has a capacity of 80 MWe

I highly value T.S. Subramaniam's reports. But this figure seems to be an outlier and if true will be a disruptive technological progress that will give this sub much higher speed than touted 24 Kt.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 Jul 2009 23:07

Austin wrote:I doubt they will use HEU , most likely LEU and it wont be 80 MW(e) but 80 MW(t)

I think it does use HEU. And yes 80MWe is an error.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jul 2009 23:10

Gagan, can you do a comparison of surfaced and submerged displacement from Polaris class onwards? Please include US, French and Russian subs to get comprehensive picture.
Thanks, ramana

Austin real secrets are kept. All others are leaked as needed. If Rabinder Singh wasnt allowed to flee with his secrets uncle wouldnt believe them.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2009 23:13

HEU would mean ~ 90 % Enrichment level bomb grade type ?

Well ~ 80 MW(e) is possible if we managed to develop a OK-650B plus type with ~ 200 MT(t) rating , if a sub is powered by twin such reactor which should give ~ 80 MW(e)

I remember last time around in an old report TSS mentioned a reactor with 100 MW(e)

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 26 Jul 2009 23:14

I think Sandeep Unnithan's idea that its based on the Akula is probly spot on. The sail behind MMS looks too angular to me to be anything but Akula.

CM.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 23:14

Pump jet propulsor, Sail mounted, front and side looking sonar, torpedo tubes, VLS, Sail like the Borei Class etc.