J & K news and discussion

[Airavat]

First, we wont find that many people willing to migrate, whatever the incentives

The 12 lakh refugees inside J&K State need to be given their full rights: to have proportional representation in the assembly, and to be compensated for their lost properties. These steps will take away the distorted power structure within the state, giving due power to Jammu and cutting down the Kashmir-based elite to their proper size. This will also solve the problems of corruption and dependence on central funds, since hard-working and honest Jammu has a flourishing economy.

we have not been defensive about KAshmir

We have been defensive about J&K, not 'Kashmir', which is one region of the state. The other regions, including those occupied by Pakistan, are never mentioned. This is why Indian citizens from western Jammu have been living without any rights for the past 60 years.

the next step would have to be to bring to Kashmir the "Indian dream"

The inhabitants of J&K have full access to all that is offered by the Indian State, and this has been the case for the past 60 years and more. It has made no difference to the Islamist mindset that has gripped the Kashmir-based elite since the 1920s.

Those who enjoy access to the 'Indian dream' permanently settle down outside the state, like so many actors in the TV and film industries (Muzamil Ibrahim, Amir Bashir, Qazi Touqeer from Kashmir and Mukesh Rishi from Jammu). Kashmiri shawl traders freely make their way to far-off Bengal and Kerala for business, make healthy profits, and return home. It makes no difference to the communalization inside the Kashmir region of J&K State.

In a democracy all Indians should have the freedom to settle down, study in, or set up a business in any part of the country. Once the 12 lakh Jammu refugees are given their due seats in the assembly, article 370 will be sent to the dustbin of history, and this more than anything else will end the jehadi mindset in the Kashmir region of J&K State.

[somnath]

Somanath-ji

I have couple of questions for you.

1. In your definition of democracy, will there be multiple civil codes or a uniform civil code? Will the administration make a sincere attempt to fulfill a joint parliamentary resolution or not? Will the govt build a temple in a disputed area if such move has popular vote?

2. Will your democrtatic state has any responsibility to protect it's citizens from religious fanatics or just ends at putting them in refugy camps?

By the way does India has any role to play in protecting the Hindu and Sikh minorities in Pakistan and Bangladesh? Please note that neither of these states are truly democratic and are theocratic by formation.

RamaY, a lot of your questions are OT here. We are talking about our stance on Kashmir, and RajeshA's thoughts on a "final solution" based on a demographic invasion..To me, a Uniform Civil Code is desirable, but not a life threatening necessity as of now...A temple is a complete waste of time - we have many millions of temples already...

Failure to protect the Kashmiri pandits (I guess thats your drift in the question) is a big blot on our record in Kashmir...though today I think most of the Pandits themselves dont want to go back anymore - memories, their integration in the local economies etc being the prime reasons - this is anecdotal though, so I may be wrong..

Airavat, the question of the power tussle between the various regions of J&K is not unique - we have the same thing in AP (Telengana v/s Coastal Andhra), in erstwhile UP (Uttarakhand v/s the plains), in erstwhile Bihar...there are demands for Harit pradesh in UP...Darjeeling in WB....These things are addressed in thir own times by the system....the "Kashmir" problem is not going to be solved by solving the Jammu-v/s-Kashmir tussle - if only, it will exacerbate the problem..

There are the following elements of a succesful CI strategy (from the Punjab example):

1. Ring fence the external support out of the state, ie, keep Paki support out as much as possible
2. Ring fence the problem "within" the state - ie, keep the insurgents within the state should not be able to take refuge in other places in India/abroad
3. Political management to manage the secessionists, bring the more mooderate ones back into the mainstream while discrediting or liquidating the more radical ones.
4. Liquidation of the insurgents within the state
5. Getting the citizenry of the state back into the Indian mainstream

We have gotten reasonable success on 1 and 2, improving performance on 3 and 4, but we really have a lot of work to do on 5..

People's opinions are not built upon a few TV actors or shawl traders, they are built upon the opinions of a middle class elite..The Kashmiri middle class (and that is not defined in monetary terms alone) is still very small, and is not integrated all that well with India yet...Dont know how many Kashmiri kids get to join the IIT/IIMs, or how many Kashmiri youth work for the big Indian corporations...There is a lot of wrok required there, along with strengthening our efforts to liquidate the terrorists..

[RajeshA]

This is question of philosophical-foundation for India. TSP is found as a haven for sub-continental Muslims. Does it make India the last resort for sub-continental Indic religions? BRF couldn’t and didn’t want to deliberate on this key aspect.

So it will be impossible for GOI to go overt on this. It has be forced upon GOI in a specific way to achieve the intended results. In order for your scenario to happen, we must have -

RamaY ji,
India's constitutional principles still have not reached their finality. The connection between Republic of India and Indian Civilization remains unformulated. Similarly the State can distance itself from Religion and achieve Secularism only after having written down the Common Principles underlying Interaction between different Religions and Guidelines for Practice of Religion, which India hasn't done as yet.

Anyways, within the above scope, a Policy should have been formulated, which said that India takes the responsibility to ensure that all Indic religious minorities residing within the boundaries of 'traditional' India are accorded their freedoms and rights of a degree and caliber equal to the rights accorded to all religious minorities in India.

That would have allowed India to 'intervene' in the internal affairs of Pakistan and Bangladesh (depends on how we define 'traditional'), something on the lines of interest groups in USA which monitor human rights in other countries, and demands sanctions on the violators.

A (visibly) forced migration of Pakistani Hindus and Sikhs must happen. And somehow they all must be made to cross the borders thru POK area. This requires further heating up the pot and subtle influence of non-resident Sikhs who are currently sponsoring (this is my guess) the Jijya payments in SWAT areas. This can be done and has to be done.

Secondly, we would need a JK state govt which will be willing to play along but easy to disassociate with. IMO, NC will make the best partner at right price. The price could be that all these immigrants will be made into Valley voters list and will vote amass to NC

There will be tremendous pressure from APHC. It is possible that there will be a similar reaction from TSP/UK combine, in which some Muslim population also will be forced from POK to cross the border. APHC will try to create suitable conditions for this on our side of the border.

So the pre-requisites are:
1. A stable, strong and visionary Govt in dilli – Done (MMS +RG)
2. Suitable conditions in TSP – Done
3. Influence Pakistanin Hindus/Sikhs to cross the border at right location – To be done
4. Have NC in JK Govt – Done
5. Arrest all leaders and cadre APHC – To be done
6. Prepare the infra to create 2-3 tent cities – Can be done
7. Plan for 24x7 security for next 5 years for these tent cities – Can be done

RamaY ji,
Thank you for giving this idea such detailed thought and your excellent points. I too have been thinking on a viable Plan. It will take me some time to put all that into writing. I will of course want to share those ideas with you and others, and hope for both critical feedback and suggestions for improvement. I'll get back to you on this in a few days.

[somnath]

On the CI front, what we need to do now ASAP is a massive expansion of the J&K local police..And concommitant reduction in CPMF/Army from internal security duties..Local insurgency can be finally defeated only by the local police (again, the Punjab example is moot)..Redeploy the Army/CPMF on the borders to stiffen the counter infiltration grid there, so that fresh supply becomes a problem for the jihadis..

Parallely, a national effort to bring the India story to Kashmir needs to be embarked upon..Its not a question of money - too much money is spent and it finds its way into politician's pockets..Its about smart strategy and targeting..Some of it I have mentioned in the earlier post..

[RayC]

The problem of Kashmir is a two way street as I see it, based on my long experience in all parts of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh.

It is getting rigid as the days go by because now Kashmir is being identified with the terrorism that is rife and which waxes and wanes, depending on the fortunes of Pakistan.

The basic issue, as was in the NE and to some extent even now, is that we don’t understand the Kashmiri ethos and culture as they don’t understand the mainstream culture and ethos of India, if indeed there is a mainstream culture and ethos in India.

Non Kashmiris are not allowed to settle in Kashmir or even run a business and the majority of Kashmiris are so poor that they can hardly venture beyond their village! Yes, that is true and I have experience of hinterland J&K. To them, going to Srinagar is what to many Indians would be the experience of going to Switzerland! This blissful isolation of the Kashmiris promotes insularity. And with the propaganda for political gains, right from Sheik Obdullah’s time, has made quite a few Kashmiris feel that they are a class by themselves and not a part of India or Pakistan; yes, Pakistan!

They are Sufis and not are not of mainstream Islam and they prayed at the Pirs and Mazars, more than at the Mosques. They also visit and pray at Hindu shrines like the Kheer Bhavani or Peer Bhavani near Wullar. The dreaded terrorist, Hameed Gada, used to come for the annual Urs at this temple.

The Kashmiris never used to eat ‘Bada Gosht’ (beef). To check this up, while travelling from Srinagar to Tangdar, I stopped at each village and went to the meat stall and asked for beef and every time I was told beef does not sell and so they don’t keep beef.

On the Indian side, we go only as tourist and there is hardly any interaction except with those who are in the tourist industry and that too the interaction is basically of business.

Therefore, neither the majority of Indians understand the Kashmiris nor do the Kashmiris understand those from mainland India.

There lies the mismatch.

Since the Indians spend a lot of money as tourists, the same feeling as one has of the freewheeling cash rich Americans is the feeling the Kashmiris gather of Indians, who are basically there for a holiday having scrimped and saved to many that holiday pleasurable. But that the Kashmiris do not understand. They feel that while they wallow in poverty, filth and dirt, the other Indians have a ball. A misplaced sense of discrimination sets in their mindset. Crank in the virulent Hurriyat and ISI backed terrorist propaganda and you have an unholy and a volatile mix!

Ever since the pan Islamic movement has taken birth post the Afghanistan mujahideen war against the Soviet and reinforced by post 9/11 War on Terror, Wahaabi Islam is taking a grip over Kashmir. Saudi money is pouring in thanks to the Hurriyat and their cahoots! The changing Srinagar skyline is an indicator as also the swelling bank accounts. The Indian government handles Kashmir with kid gloves and so there is practically a carte blanche for Kashmiris to do as they feel like and being beyond investigation, lest there is a furore!

What is required is interaction between Mainland Indians and Kashmiris.

Mainland India’s presence can be no more than in the form of tourists since Article 370 is in vogue. But there is no embargo on opening up Mainland India to the Kashmiris. If Karzai, Abdullah Abdullah can be sympathetic to India because they have studied in India, then surely Kashmiris too will change their perception if they are extended the same facilities.

I would like to add that Op Sadbhavana of the IA is a step in this direction.

The scheme has built schools of standard in villages that saw no education, clinics staffed by Army doctors including lady doctors, veterinary clinics, improved their sanitation and toilets (they did their ablution in creeks by the village), helped them in pre and post natal checks and advice and medicine, organised tours for schoolchildren to Mainland India as far as the South and such like, it has proved a success and has done much to change the mindset.

The tours for children have been a great eyeopener. It changed the mindset of the youth about India.

Therefore, apart from other initiatives that the government may take, interaction is the answer!

The Chinese have made non Hans into Hans, but they had brutal ways apart from changing the demography.

Our way is a better way if we follow Op Sadbhavna.

The insurgency in the NE is practically a dying game. That is because Mainland India has interacted with them and the proof is that it is quite normal to find people from the NE all over India, either for education or for work. There is an MP of NE origin from Karnataka!

China has learnt it the hard way in Tibet and Xinjaing that force or discrimination is not the answer nor by wiping out the local culture and language!

[RayC]

The problem with the local police is that all these years Central Forces have been doing their job for them.

They have to be first trained and then given the responsibility.

The other problem is that they have been 'infiltrated'.

[Sanku]

What is required is interaction between Mainland Indians and Kashmiris.

Thanks for that bit of insight Sir, very telling, it is.

[RajeshA]

RajeshA,

With respect, the formulation is precisely the type that would be loved by the "RSS types", but is not grounded in history or reality..

somnath ji,

I once had the pleasure of having dinner with a BJP MP from UP who was close to RSS. He kept telling me, how India had all sorts of nukes in the time of Mahabharata, etc. At that time, when I used to be young, convinced Nehruvian in thinking and rational, I tried very hard to suppress my laughter and to remain gracious and diplomatic. Now I am simply a self-proclaimed rational. Today I think I know too little about the literature from 'that' era, to try to understand and interpret all those claims in their historical and scientific context.

So I do think, that often the 'RSS Types' have a tendency to accept such claims too literally and perhaps not in their proper context, but I am very enamored by their convictions in the Indic nonetheless.

Today I am far less dismissive of 'RSS Types' contributions to society and the preservation of our Indic identity and civilization. Today I am far less impressed by the 'brown sahibs', who are simply vending machines full of Western rhetoric bubble gum.

As far as 'grounded in history and reality' is concerned, how can that be possible if one is talking about a future course of action.

One, no democracy has ever attempted a demographic invasion of the sort you are suggesting, not in its own territory..Two, even a totalitarian state has not managed to do anything like that when the security situation is hostile..The only exception to both is Israel, and it is a very very specific situation that a) very different (they don't really have a militarily strong neighbor encouraging the Jihadi/Palestinians) and b) not scalable (Kashmir is a very different size and scale compared to the occupied territories)...

On the one hand, you express confidence in IIMs, on the other hand you make excuses of 'has not managed to do anything like that'. Every day managers are confronted with new challenges, to do things that have never been done before. Otherwise there will be no innovation. So the viability of such a plan need not be hostage to the existence of a suitable historical precedent.

A much better analogy would be the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt and their journey to the Holy Land of Canaan, with the difference that Indian 'Managers' would have to be far better than Moses.

First, we wont find that many people willing to migrate, whatever the incentives..Second, it will only raise another huge bogey for the jihadis to up their "international" campaign, while presenting new motivation for a renewed escalation of militancy violence..

People are attached to their family, their community. If the community leaders decide to migrate, and impress on all to come along and leave no one behind, then all would come happily.
As far as bogey is concerned, you are looking from the perspective of a plan for migration. If you look at it from the perspective of the refugees forced to flee their homes from the religious persecution of the Islamists, then the 'international campaign' would be very critical of Pakistani Islamists for having forced ethnic cleansing and displacement upon a vulnerable minority, and supportive of India for having provided shelter to so many refugees.

Contrary to what you say, we have not been defensive about Kashmir, not in the last 10-12 years anymore..WE have simply asked the UN to bugger off, and Kofi Annan said "yes ok"!! the levels of violence has come down drastically, and our political management is far shrewder now, with the Hurriyat getting increasingly marginalized..

That may all be true, but it still doesn't even start to scrape the surface of all that is possible by an India Unshackled.

the next step would have to be to bring to Kashmir the "Indian dream" - when more Kashmiri boys come to the IITs/IIMs (and thats the challenge - how do you get enough guys there trained up to be good enough for these elite institutions), they will seamlessly integrate with the Indian story..When more Indian businesses set up shop in Kashmir, there will be greater integration...Thats why the Railway project in Kashmir is so important, as are other "connectivity" solutions...What we need to do is just the reverse of what you are suggesting..We should get a lot more Kashmiris to settle in mainland India - they will see the difference themselves and influence others...

My take for doing that are the following:

1. Start a crash course in training Kashmiri kids to take the IIT/IIM exams - a bit like the Bihar experiment..Target at least 25-30 kids every year to joing these elite institutions..

2. Start a crash course in preparing kids for the NDA/CDS - more people joiinig the services at officer level will change mindsets and integrate them even more than PBORs.

3. Put the railway and road projects on the real fast track (Duronto scale, Mamatadi )..

There would be other measures, but giving them a flavour of the India story is the next phase in the Kashmir game..

And yes, we should rip that UNMOGIP office out...Another anachronism...

All that is good. It is however all incremental and not transformational. Do Good is a good concept but to solve Kashmir one would have to rely on the Be Brave concept.

[enqyoob]

Non Kashmiris are not allowed to settle in Kashmir or even run a business and the majority of Kashmiris are so poor that they can hardly venture beyond their village! Yes, that is true and I have experience of hinterland J&K. To them, going to Srinagar is what to many Indians would be the experience of going to Switzerland! This blissful isolation of the Kashmiris promotes insularity.

This cannot be remedied just by picking Kashmiri students to go to IITs, IMO. It requires business to come up, and give Kashmiris a stake in seeing that the business does not get blown up or the owners shot or driven out.

Where I live, the city is described as one that is "A City that's too busy to hate". That is because the business leaders have consistently managed to keep their mutual race-based hangups out of the imperative of scamming everyone else (OK, that's just being nasty - they have just had the vision to look 50 years out and articulate that to everyone). Thus, when the whole region around has been mired in poverty and race hate, the city has marched on ahead as pretty-much an oasis.

The key to this is that they all understand that a good business environment is what keeps the wolf away from the door.

When Kashmir has enough Guj baniyas and Malloos and Assamese and Kannadas and Maharashtrians, all working as hard as they can in the cause of making money along with Kashmiris, the land value of Kashmiris' holdings will zoom and they will be driving around in Mercedes and Lexus cars on the potholed goat-tracks like they do in Kerala.

But this cannot happen when the Pakis are free to leave bombs in the shopping Malls. Unfortunately the only solution there is to solve the Pakistan Problem. Destroy Pakistan as an entity and keep them too busy killing each other to bother coming across the LOC.

[RayC]

On the issue of migration, it is unbelievable that there is a huge population of Bengalis in Kashmir married to Kashmiris.

One terrorist wife was a Bengali and I was shocked when I interviwed her!

Kashmir: Everyone has lost in their own way

Bengali brides in Valley

[RayC]

One of the reasons why Bangladesh turned hostile after the Liberation by India is that the Marwaris descended and they took over their business, the same is the case with Nepal.

Why were the Jews despised in medieval Europe?

The Chinese are tolerated in Malaysia, but they the Malays talk behind their back viciously!

I wonder if businessmen descending will help the situation.

[somnath]

I would like to add that Op Sadbhavana of the IA is a step in this direction.

The scheme has built schools of standard in villages that saw no education, clinics staffed by Army doctors including lady doctors, veterinary clinics, improved their sanitation and toilets (they did their ablution in creeks by the village), helped them in pre and post natal checks and advice and medicine, organised tours for schoolchildren to Mainland India as far as the South and such like, it has proved a success and has done much to change the mindset.

The tours for children have been a great eyeopener. It changed the mindset of the youth about India.

Therefore, apart from other initiatives that the government may take, interaction is the answer!

The Chinese have made non Hans into Hans, but they had brutal ways apart from changing the demography.

Our way is a better way if we follow Op Sadbhavna.

Op Sadhbhavna is a good initiative..But its not a substitute for what the civil admin needs to do...Something like the Bihar exxperiment needs to be done to get 20-25 kids every year to the IIT/IIMs...Requires a very different skillset..But the integration of Kashmir with mainland India is moot - we need more initiatives to promote that...Build up a middle class elite with very high linkages with India...

On the one hand, you express confidence in IIMs, on the other hand you make excuses of 'has not managed to do anything like that'. Every day managers are confronted with new challenges, to do things that have never been done before. Otherwise there will be no innovation. So the viability of such a plan need not be hostage to the existence of a suitable historical precedent.

A much better analogy would be the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt and their journey to the Holy Land of Canaan, with the difference that Indian 'Managers' would have to be far better than Moses.

IIM-ians and the other "best of the best" ( ) can work within the demands of a particular era..Unfortunately Moses is not relevant for this era..You cannot have wholesale migration of population with an explicit objective of demographic change..Look at Israel...Much lower scale, far higher asymmetry of military power vis a vis the adversary, and still they are struggling with the implications...

We have actually managed Kashnmir pretty well in the last few years..Nows the time to press home the advantage...I mentioned a few things above as the CI strategy, nothing but rip-offs from the Punjab experience and then putting the "mainstreaming" of Kashmir into the mainland...We are unshackled already, but this is India only, we work at a particular pace - though what we do (at least in the pvt space, sometimes in the public space as well) is cutting edge.

Finally about the RSS types, well their sheer lack of intellectual depth is humungous..Even the abhoring and illiterate Nazis quoted Nietsze, the RSS types cant see beyond fuzzy mythology..And then they start thinking they can impose an agenda, fanciful as it is..In all these years, there is not one justification of the RSS world view, or any part of their world view, from anyone who can be termed as anything but a khaki chaddiwala...These days they cling on to VS Naipaul in their desperation (the same guy who described India as "darkness et al"!!!!!)...

RajeshA,

I suggest you read 'Those Days' by Sunil Gangopadhyay (the translated version of his original 'Sei Samay' which deals with the period of nineteenth Century Bengal where the turmoil you are facing now was what Bengal was facing then!

It has been published by Penguin. Cost Rs 350. 588 pages.

I read the book many moons back, in bengali..Dont remember it talking about genocidal challenges!Or a hindu worldview - or am I forgetting!

[somnath]

This cannot be remedied just by picking Kashmiri students to go to IITs, IMO. It requires business to come up, and give Kashmiris a stake in seeing that the business does not get blown up or the owners shot or driven out.

Where I live, the city is described as one that is "A City that's too busy to hate". That is because the business leaders have consistently managed to keep their mutual race-based hangups out of the imperative of scamming everyone else (OK, that's just being nasty - they have just had the vision to look 50 years out and articulate that to everyone). Thus, when the whole region around has been mired in poverty and race hate, the city has marched on ahead as pretty-much an oasis.

The key to this is that they all understand that a good business environment is what keeps the wolf away from the door.

When Kashmir has enough Guj baniyas and Malloos and Assamese and Kannadas and Maharashtrians, all working as hard as they can in the cause of making money along with Kashmiris, the land value of Kashmiris' holdings will zoom and they will be driving around in Mercedes and Lexus cars on the potholed goat-tracks like they do in Kerala.

But this cannot happen when the Pakis are free to leave bombs in the shopping Malls. Unfortunately the only solution there is to solve the Pakistan Problem. Destroy Pakistan as an entity and keep them too busy killing each other to bother coming across the LOC.

It does..The key influencers, agenda setters in any community is a middle class elite..Kashmir doesnt have one, and mind you middle class is not merely an economic expression..IIT/IIM is a reflection of the Indian middle class dream..Get the Kashnmiris, in enough numbers over time, into it and the mainstreaming would be going ahead...You cant creat businessment out of a community overnight (look at bengalis, can never become businessment! ), but you can engage the community in other's businesses..Kashmirirs need to be made skilled enough to join the Indian dream..

If we wait for the Pak problem to be solved, we will keep waiting for many many years indeed..

[enqyoob]

RayC, excellent point about the BD analogy. So there has to be good govt. regulation. But India's error there was NOT staying long enough to ensure that there was a thriving business community that had enough political power to counter the hate-mongers. I know, it was not possible in those days.

However, the real mechanism for wealth increase of the locals is the rise in land values, not the engineer or DOO jobs etc. This cannot happen until outsiders with money are in a position to buy and develop. For instance, compare Srinagar with, say, Bangalore.

In Kerala, after decades of local stagnation despite a huge expat population sending phoren currency and gizmos home, this is what has suddenly happened. Exponential rise in land values in converted dollars (i.e., direct conversion, not just purchasing power), now exceeding most parts of California. The locals sell off a bit, get very rich, or go take out loans with their land as collateral, and live the good life. Similar thing is happening, as I hear, in Haryana and UP near the Delhi galactic center. They spend, and the local economy booms. The development rush brings employment, and in fact now it is very hard to find local Malloos on construction teams - the teams are mostly imports from North or East India.

This again happens only if Indian citizens with money and vision are allowed to buy and develop land. Otherwise, the Kashmiris are condemned to be "protected" in their poverty, while sitting on what should be some of the most valuable real estate on the planet. So this is why withdrawing Article 370 is essential. A uniform Civil Code is also essential, to bring the population out of ignorance, otherwise it will become like the gulf countries or KSA - external sophistication, savages inside.

And somnath, amazing as this may sound, I am not completely unaware of what an IIT or IIM is. I do agree that sending rural kids to an IIT is a great way to spread drug use in their localities. The Middle Class are not the IIT grads nor even the Amreeka/Bilayat expats - they are the locals who stay and make good because their land appreciates, and are giddy enough still to be hungry for glittering trinkets Made in China, and "Kentucky Fried Chicken" at posh restaurants. Harsh fact of life, learned too late to acquire taste for such things.

[somnath]

^^^ Narayanan, the point on land is a red herring..Land prices in Kashmir, even without others being allowed to buy, have skyrocketed..Esepcially in the urban areas like Srinagar..

As I said before, money alone doesnt a middle class make..If that were the case, all the Gulf countries would be progressive ones...I didnt think you wouldnt know IIT/IIM (though you insist on my being surprised! )..But a bunch of them, a bunch of civil servants, a bunch of managers of large Indian companies will transform the Kashmiri world view completely....We have already established that the Indian state is mightier than any "help" (jihadi or Paki) that the Kashmiris can get..the next stage is to establish how the Indian dream is better than the jihadi/Pkai one..

[RajeshA]

IIM-ians and the other "best of the best" ( ) can work within the demands of a particular era..Unfortunately Moses is not relevant for this era..You cannot have wholesale migration of population with an explicit objective of demographic change..Look at Israel...Much lower scale, far higher asymmetry of military power vis a vis the adversary, and still they are struggling with the implications...

somnath ji,
you begin at the wrong end of the story. You begin at the explicit objective of demographic change. You should begin at the right end of the story, and i.e. ameliorating the plight of Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan who are being persecuted there. The question is: Do they deserve to also visit IIMs and IITs and share in the 'Indian Dream' or should they make peace with their fate to die or convert? What is your message to those 3 million Hindus and 5000 Sikhs?

As the monster of Talibanism & Jihadism grows, what would you prescribe for those poor souls?

Let's look at Israel then. You say they are struggling with implications. Are you contending, they were better off during the Holocaust?
The Pakistani Hindus & Sikhs need their own Aliyah.

[somnath]

somnath ji,
you begin at the wrong end of the story. You begin at the explicit objective of demographic change. You should begin at the right end of the story, and i.e. ameliorating the plight of Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan who are being persecuted there. The question is: Do they deserve to also visit IIMs and IITs and share in the 'Indian Dream' or should they make peace with their fate to die or convert? What is your message to those 3 million Hindus and 5000 Sikhs?

As the monster of Talibanism & Jihadism grows, what would you prescribe for those poor souls?

Let's look at Israel then. You say they are struggling with implications. Are you contending, they were better off during the Holocaust?
The Pakistani Hindus & Sikhs need their own Aliyah.

If the point is about our concern for the hindus/sikhs in Pak, well, then Kashmir is not in the equation - Kashmir is not their "promised land"...Further, the trouble this would cause in our bigger scheme of thinigs - is it worth it? And quite frankly, I am not sure whether they deserve to be part of the Indian dream - maybe they do..I dont have a POV...I am uncomfortable with identifying causes linked to religion alone..It is as if we would like some sort of a pan hindu movement like a pan Islamic jihad...

In any case, the opportunity within India is far too immense..And our possibilities are far too great..Plans of demographic change, or even of pan hindu sympathies, distract us from the real challenges...

[RajeshA]

If the point is about our concern for the Hindus/Sikhs in Pak, well, then Kashmir is not in the equation - Kashmir is not their "promised land"...

What is their promised land, then? India? Is Kashmir not India? Or would you suggest some other part of India would be, should be their promised land?

Further, the trouble this would cause in our bigger scheme of things - is it worth it?

So if we look at it from the humanitarian angle, it is too 'small' to be worth the trouble, and if we look at the bigger scheme of things, a demographic change in Kashmir, then it becomes "easier said than done".

From your comments, I have started wondering what you mean by "our"? Why would one consider a Hindu or a Sikh who never left his house in undivided India, a "paraya", a "videshi", while somebody who has left the Indian shores and migrated to Singapore as in your case, or to Europe as in my case, be considered a "deshi", a "Bharatiye"!

And quite frankly, I am not sure whether they deserve to be part of the Indian dream - maybe they do..I don't have a PoV...I am uncomfortable with identifying causes linked to religion alone..It is as if we would like some sort of a pan Hindu movement like a pan Islamic jihad...

Indic is not a case of religion. It means to have conviction, loyalty and adherence to an unbroken age-old Bharatiye Sabhyata, as I see it!
As I see it, the 'Pan-Hindu Movement' if there is any such thing, is for the protection of Hindu lives, stopping missionary poaching and securing the 'Traditional Hindu Land'.
Islamic Jihad is for enforcing religious dogma, conversion, and conquest of land.
The two cannot be compared. One is defensive in nature, the other offensive.

The cause of the Indics is not that of religion, but rather that of protecting persecuted religious minorities in their traditional home, one of freedom and rights.

In any case, the opportunity within India is far too immense..And our possibilities are far too great..Plans of demographic change, or even of pan Hindu sympathies, distract us from the real challenges...

By the way, people who run after money at the cost of the lives of their own people are often called traitors.

[somnath]

^^^ RajeshA, I am afraid you are creating a non-existant construct and trying to justify an impractical agenda through that..

There is zero evidence that the Hindus/Sikhs in PAkistan are begging to be coming back to India, much less specificallly to Kashmir..To use that as a starting point for a demographic invasion of Kashmir in order to solve our Kashmir problem defies logic..

As I said, even in totalitarian states it doesnt work - look at Xinjiang, look at Tibet..And China isnt even facing a full blown insurgency supported by a militarily capable nuke armed neighbour..

To suggest that we go on some mythic "Indic civilsational protection" drive and somehow attract millions of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan and other oppressed lands to come into Kashmir and therefore change its power equations is fantastic..

I dont know what you mean by "people runnign after money at cost of lives etc etc"....India's national agenda is about maxing the deal for itself, for the greatest numbers of its people - and like it or not, the economic agenda is the most important one..We wont be having grand debates about sellout in the nuke deal or EUVA if our econmic muscle was not strong enough for people to be asking for such deals with us...

Somehow a plan to create a whole new problem for ourselves by trying to fight non existant battles doesnt fit in the grand scheme of things!

[somnath]

BTW, the whole "Indic civilisational drive" you refer to is what was termed as the Look East policy started by Narasimha Rao..The focus there is about increasing our engagement with countries with large Indic influences - Thailand, Indon, Malaysia...These would be economic, trade, cultural and military...Influence through soft power of India to harness civilisational linkages..

That way again we get con crete gains for India, and for her people...

[Virupaksha]

Somnath, did you know that there are villages in India which even as of today, do not know that they live in a country called India!!

There were many newspaper reports that villages in Bhuj during 2002 gujarat earth quake when for the first time, some type of interaction took place.

An artificial line drawn by a english man has become so much important? boundaries are conveniences.

and please dont give me the cr*p about how national boundaries have become non-changing in this "modern" world and so on. A simple look at europe's map 20 years ago and today will dispel all such notions.

[Sanku]

As I said, even in totalitarian states it doesnt work - look at Xinjiang, look at Tibet..And China isnt even facing a full blown insurgency supported by a militarily capable nuke armed neighbour..

In the long term Xiangang is finished and so is Tibet unless the CPC breaks up first, the minor glitches and riots are hardly proof of CPC's policy not working.

[Sanku]

and please dont give me the cr*p about how national boundaries have become non-changing in this "modern" world and so on. A simple look at europe's map 20 years ago and today will dispel all such notions.

There are some basic truths about the world at large, and all the hoo haa about modern world and culture and blah are hardly going to change the essential nature of geo-politics.

This is denial at best, and well understood tactic of diverting the attention from the real issues at best. It has always been that.

[RajeshA]

somnath ji,

Every argument stands on its own feet, be it -

- the strategic imperative of demographic change in Kashmir or
- the moral imperative to come to the help of persecuted Indic minorities in Pakistan.

Depending on your argumentation, I can only answer accordingly.

We can argue the case from both the angles of principle and feasibility, the angles of hypothetical and real.

In my question of strategic imperative of demographic change in Kashmir,
- I asked whether it is sound in principle.
- You answer it is not feasible.
- I am saying, the feasibility issue is another debate. What is not feasible, can be made feasible through better management.
- Either you dodged or only partially touched on the evaluation of the strategic imperative from PoV of

• creeping Wahabbism in the Valley,
• inability of Indian State to integrate the population after 62 years into the Indian Mainstream,
• continued secessionist tendencies,
• PRC's strategic thrust into the region,
• ambivalent to Paki-appeasing stand of the West,
• prolongation of Indo-Pak conflict due to non-resolution of the 'core' issue
• Nuclearization of Pakistan as well as PRC's co-option of Pakistan as a proxy due to non-resolution of conflict
• dependence on P-5 members on the issue, and subsequent loss of foreign policy free space
• abject lack of confidence in foreign policy, e.g. Kashmir cannot be internationalized, even though in reality it is
• Kashmir being used as an excuse to foment terrorism in India by Pakistan
• Freezing of J&K status internally in India through Article 370 preventing the states integration into the mainstream

My contention is that a demographic change in Kashmir through Hindu/Sikh migration from Pakistan would solve almost all the above problems.

In my question of the moral imperative to come to the help of persecuted Indic minorities in Pakistan.
- I asked whether it was sound in principle
- You sounded to be against it in principle but give no justification
- You also dispute either the persecution is there or that they do not believe in the next logical step of looking for protection in India, even if persecution exists

My contention is that the persecution is real, but too little information trickles out, and that even if they are not ready for the next logical step, this can change easily.

At this point, I am not concerned about the feasibility, the practicability, even as I am convinced of these, but rather whether somebody considers the two imperatives to be justified in principle or not.

Your arguments were mostly about the feasibility of the 'project'.

[Jaspreet]

RayC:

Therefore, neither the majority of Indians understand the Kashmiris nor do the Kashmiris understand those from mainland India.

My comment may sound OT, but it isn't. RayC, your statement could be generalized to many states of India. How much does an average(*) Punjabi know about Assamese culture? Or how much does an average Mizo know of Haryanvi culture?

You alluded to that when you said "if indeed there is a mainstream culture and ethos in India."

So if Oriyas, Biharis, Punjabis, Tamils and others can get together to form an India story, why can't Kashmiris?

-----
* I said "average", not you, the BRFite.

[RajeshA]

^^^ RajeshA, I am afraid you are creating a non-existant construct and trying to justify an impractical agenda through that..

True, the construct is indeed non-existent, but the imperatives are not. The agenda is impractical for those who lack the will to realize it.

As I said, even in totalitarian states it doesn't work - look at Xinjiang, look at Tibet..And China isnt even facing a full blown insurgency supported by a militarily capable nuke armed neighbor..

If you noted, I never said, India should push other Indians into Kashmir to overwhelm the local populace. I want the 'kin' of the Kashmiris, the Pakistanis, to push other Indics into Kashmir to 'inadvertently' overwhelm the local populace.

To suggest that we go on some mythic "Indic civilizational protection" drive and somehow attract millions of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan and other oppressed lands to come into Kashmir and therefore change its power equations is fantastic..

Yes, isn't it fantastic!

I don't know what you mean by "people running after money at cost of lives etc etc"....India's national agenda is about maxing the deal for itself, for the greatest numbers of its people - and like it or not, the economic agenda is the most important one..We wont be having grand debates about sellout in the nuke deal or EUVA if our economic muscle was not strong enough for people to be asking for such deals with us...

Somehow a plan to create a whole new problem for ourselves by trying to fight non existent battles doesn't fit in the grand scheme of things!

I would say, it is just as important to get rid of 'strategic timidity' and to push for 'national consolidation' as it is to implement the 'economic agenda'.

[svinayak]

Finally about the RSS types, well their sheer lack of intellectual depth is humungous..Even the abhoring and illiterate Nazis quoted Nietsze, the RSS types cant see beyond fuzzy mythology..And then they start thinking they can impose an agenda, fanciful as it is..In all these years, there is not one justification of the RSS world view, or any part of their world view, from anyone who can be termed as anything but a khaki chaddiwala...These days they cling on to VS Naipaul in their desperation (the same guy who described India as "darkness et al"!!!!!)...

LOL! If you dont know of any subject dont post here.

[enqyoob]

Gee, somnath, r u SURE u r not the somnath of "Laughter of Democracy" fame? Circa 1999/2000 when there was an election in J&K?

[shaardula]

agree with Jaspreet. similar things could be said about almost any indian state. growing up i too stayed in different villages. going to the nearest town, forget city, used to be a big deal. the thing is, this was many decades ago. today they all have moved on and found different ways of making themselves relevant to the outside world, and have found different uses FOR the outside world. if in 2009 kashmir is still stuck in the same mindset, it is because of different reasons, not because of it. i am sure there still exist other such villages in "heartland" india too.

to be brutally honest, i find it offensive that you assume kashmiriyat is above and beyond - kannaDiyat, telugu-iyat, malayaliyat,tamiliyat, punjabiyat, banglaiyat, gujju-iyat, marathi-iyat, and so on... you think only kashmir has sufis, yogis and idiosyncrasies in what they eat and what they speak? kashmir is connected to kerala at the umbilical. its native narrative and worldview is linked to ideas of people like kanada and abhinavagupta and gaudapada and so on. the problem is we have allowed ourselves to or have been brow beaten into accepting that some how muslim's religion and their culture is somehow more special than those of others. wtf is so special about sufi? have you heard of nayanars, the dasas and the jangamas and the rest? do you know how much of a rebel, , how progressive(including seeding and nurturing the proto-feminism, before somebody else cried wolfe) they were and are? nothing in the rest of india subscribes to the worldview of these people too.

No Kashmiryat is no different from Kannadiyat etc.

However, the situation and the history of the integration of the Kashmir into the Union including Article 370 made them appear something 'special'.

That is about all. If the govt thinks they are special, can we grudge them if they think they are special?

[CRamS]

Therefore, neither the majority of Indians understand the Kashmiris nor do the Kashmiris understand those from mainland India.

There lies the mismatch.

Well, well, does a Tamil understand a Punjabi and vice versa? Does a Bihari undesrtand an Andhrite and vice versa? It is because of this lack of any coherent sense of nationalism, India cannot elect a nationalist leader. It is becasue of this that TSP terror has gone unpunished. It is because of this that India is a little pygmy in the hands of the west. And finally, it is because of this that MMS has abjectly surrendered lock, stock, and barrel to TSP; which could culminate in Kashmiri Sunni Muslims and TSP achieving their Kashmir 'dream'. My attraction to Hinduthva and BJP was precisely for this reason, to build a sense of nationalism among India's disparate entitites.

[shaardula]

rajesh-ji, for your idea to work, we need the advanced biometric green card checking facilities like these:


sdre techniques and tools wont work.

[RajeshA]

We have OCR techniques already developed and ready for deployment.

OCR == Optical Cuttua Recognition

[RamaY]

Somanath,

To summarize your thoughts...
* Kashmir is a distinct entity in Indian Union and needs to be treated as a special case.
* Any movement within and without India that interacts with Kashmir is “demographic invasion”. You don’t see it the same way if all those millions of Bangladeshis settle in WB/Bihar/NE. Please note that all non-BJP political parties are culprits in this BD-invasion by virtue of their inaction.
* Somehow the rest of India has to appease Kashmir because India is a democratic state cannot influence its population especially the KMs.

J&K is just another princely state that joined Indian Union during 1947/48. JK must not have any special status, just like any other princely state. It is JLN’s (Leadership) fault and INC’s legacy. And this issue must be corrected by leadership only. Indian Parliament already has a unanimous resolution stating that entire POK+NA to be part of JK state thus are disputed areas and needs to be recaptured. This any future administrations must honor that and fulfill that promise to this nation.

Based on these facts, there is no need to have "OUR" stance on Kashmir. And there is no need to treat the Valley Muslims any different from other IMs either. This is the very exclusivity is what hurting Indian Interests within and without.

Unfortunately our entire leadership (political, administrative, and military) is supporting the very exclusivity of the Kashmir Valley for Islam by its inaction for the past many years. Look at what RayC writes (he represents a section of IA philosophy here) as if Kashmir Valley is some distant island and needs special status.

Therefore, neither the majority of Indians understand the Kashmiris nor do the Kashmiris understand those from mainland India.
…
What is required is interaction between Mainland Indians and Kashmiris.

Your casual brushing-off of Kashmiri Pundits’ interests shows the hollowness in your value system, be it human-rights, or concept of nation-state, or democracy.

[RayC]

RayC:

Therefore, neither the majority of Indians understand the Kashmiris nor do the Kashmiris understand those from mainland India.

My comment may sound OT, but it isn't. RayC, your statement could be generalized to many states of India. How much does an average(*) Punjabi know about Assamese culture? Or how much does an average Mizo know of Haryanvi culture?

You alluded to that when you said "if indeed there is a mainstream culture and ethos in India."

So if Oriyas, Biharis, Punjabis, Tamils and others can get together to form an India story, why can't Kashmiris?

-----
* I said "average", not you, the BRFite.

The answer is simple.

The Kashmiris are insular and lazy. Not my words but the words from 'Vale of Kashmir' By Lawrence.

Tamils, Oriyas etc are ready to 'explore'.

The Kashmiri psyche is not that adventurous!

[Virupaksha]

The answer is simple.

The Kashmiris are insular and lazy. Not my words but the words from 'Vale of Kashmir' By Lawrence.
The Kashmiri psyche is not that adventurous!

When that lazyness didnt stop them from kicking out kashmiri hindus or from making a big scene for every other non-event on a daily basis, one starts to question that particular description.

or is it a case of "an idle mind is a devil's workshop". I dont know.

In villages in Gujarat I visited, yes, the most industrious and enterprenurial state of India, there are villages where the work is only for the 4 months during monsoon and the rest of the 8 months, they simply did nothing. and these are villages with very good road connectivity. I can imagine what it will be in the snow capped mountains.

[Muppalla]

'Blame it on India if ISI is meddling in Kashmir'

[RamaY]

The answer is simple.

The Kashmiris are insular and lazy. Not my words but the words from 'Vale of Kashmir' By Lawrence.

Tamils, Oriyas etc are ready to 'explore'.

The Kashmiri psyche is not that adventurous!

Quoting امراؤ جان

Excuses Excuses and even more innovative excuses.

[BijuShet]

'Blame it on India if ISI is meddling in Kashmir'

From the report

Investigative journalist and author Harinder Baweja, who was among the speakers from India participating in the International Kashmir Conference in Washington, has stated that when it comes to the issue of Kashmir it was hard to be objective.
...
Baweja alleged, "India has taken recourse to the Shimla Agreement and emphasised bilateralism because India has never really been sure that the world by and large accepted the legitimacy of its control over Kashmir."

"But forget about the international community, the people of Kashmir do not accept India's legitimacy over Jammu and Kashmir{But the people of Jammu and Ladakh do accept India's legitimacy over Jammu and Kashmir}, but government of India is still caught in the containment policy. They believe that any concession given to Kashmir, will in turn open the floodgates for demand in other states."
...
Dr Karen Parker, chairperson of the Association of Humanitarian Lawyers, acknowledged that during the two days of discussion at the conference, "we have scratched the surface but we have also dug deeply. We are at a junction right now with a new President (in the United States) and a possible new agenda.{A new agenda by a new Potus, I wonder what that would be?}"

She said, "If there is any time for us to push the issue harder, it is now. We will not get a more favourable time than now."{Favorable to whom I wonder again?}

Parker warned, "If we lose this opportunity, we might have to wait a really long time."{BR's nightmare scenario of current GoI giving Kashmir valley to TSP before 2014.}
...
Meanwhile, Dr Ghulam [ Images ] Nabi Fai, executive director of the Kashmiri American Council, ...

He said, "The time has come that President Barack Obama [ Images ] needs to listen to what candidate Barack Obama said on October 23, 2008 -- and that is an appointment of a special envoy on Kashmir will go a long way to hasten the process of peace and reconciliation not only in Kashmir but in the whole region of South Asia."{Special envoy for J&K, Special Status - Article 370, Special people - Kashmiriyat, I am sick of all these special privileges, even Raysaar feels Kashmiri lazy bones are special as compared to less progressive and backward Bengali, Goan or any other Indian lazy bones}


British author Victoria Schofield, who is also a regular contributor to BBC, who has also visited Kashmir several times, warned, "While the dispute continues, there's every opportunity for people to take advantage of the unstable Indo-Pakistani relationship for their own objectives."{But miss being an author and not a politician or a world leader of any kind, you are taking advantage of the unstable Indo-Paki relationship for you own 2 mins in the limelight at our expense.}
...

My comments in blue.

[enqyoob]

Ooo! The Lashkar-e-Pinocchio is back!

I think I can still find that article with the (PAKISTANI) media references that say the "Kashmir Conference" is ISI-sponsored: :

Here it is, re-lie-able as ever! Googleswara ho Akbar! mrgreen:

Quoting the Best:

Here’s what Raman’s favorite paper, the Lahore Daily Times had to say about their “Kashmir- Beyond the Blame Game” conference in Washington DC[31]: “The only thing international about the conference was that it was held in Washington, but its principal audience appeared to be the establishment in Pakistan, which obviously had accorded its full blessings to the event…. no word was available as to the costs of the exercise and which agency, organisation or individual had defrayed them.. The patronising hand of the lone state agency which in recent years has taken almost sole responsibility for Kashmir, was much in evidence. A member of the Pakistani national legislature said “a certain outfit” in Islamabad had cleared the list of those invited to speak. The list of invitees from Pakistan remained confined to those who were expected to represent the official line or the line of the day.”

The attendees included Dr. Ayyub Thakkur, London-based “Kashmiri Activist” about whom one might find much more in the Indian media related to terrorist funding. {note: I think that one is shaheed now} From the India Tribune[32] comes this different view of continued ISI sponsorship. Summarizing ISI directives to the “All-Party Hurriyat Conference”, a secessionist outfit in Kashmir: “Set up APHC offices abroad to give high profile to the APHC and internationalise the Kashmir issue in a more effective manner. The ISI even identified the prospective foreign offices of APHC and offered its financial and logistic support for the purpose. It suggested Ghulam Nabi Fai’s office of Kashmir American Council in the USA and Ayub Thakur’s office of his NGO Mercy International in UK as some of the foreign addresses.

Here’s what the ISI themselves have to say about the “Kashmir” gang in the US[33]. The South Asia Tribune, quoting Colonel Shuja Khanzada, self-declared ISI operative posted to the Pakistani Embassy in Washington, talking about a visit by Opposition Leader Benazir Bhutto in 1993-94: “Then she came to Washington, met people. She met the CIA people. Khalid Hasan (journalist) was there, Zaidi (journalist) was there. Dr Fai (Kashmiri lobbyist) was there … I told Dr. Fai to step up his campaign so that they don't get the impression that you are involved in the same issue….” These reports indicate that Dr. Ghulam Nabi Fai takes his orders directly from the Pakistani ISI. The South Asia Tribune is considered the closest thing to a free Pakistani-American media outlet.

The references are listed below that. Don't know if they are still active, but they were.

[CRamS]

Guys:

On a scale of 0-10 (low to high), what are the chances MMS will surrender Kashmir valley to TSP by 2014? In my books, surrender does not necessariuly mean MMS handing over the keys to TSP at a special ceremony at the white house or Stockholm, Sweeden, but any concession that would give TSP an official say in the valley; this BS Mush has been peddling which apparently MMS agreed to, namely, joint control.

My prediction: 10.