MRCA News and Discussion

wig · Post by **wig** » 05 Aug 2009 16:59

wonderful philip , well written. written for a true affiocinado!

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 05 Aug 2009 16:59

Good post Philip but I think that you where a little partial about MiG-35's chances!
:Lets start betting! What are the stakes??

clay · Post by **clay** » 05 Aug 2009 17:12

Nice and entertaining post Phillip.

Maybe one of the long odds could surprise us, also never knew the SH mare was a hybrid that came with testicles

Regds, Clay

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Aug 2009 17:28

Tx Clay,the SH stands coprrected as a "pony with warpaint" not a mare,was thinking of that matronly mare Hillary when writing!

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 05 Aug 2009 18:28

this is the best article so far,,,was too tired of hearing about MMRCA race for past 5 years,,,,stables ,horses ,semen samples

the great indian mmrca conundrum

i hope a stallion with the best engine and radar wins it

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Aug 2009 20:52

X-posted....

Gerard wrote:BAE Systems' Eurofighter Typhoon factory faces closure
Britain's last fighter aircraft factory faces closure within five years after the government’s decision last week to curtail its purchases of the Eurofighter Typhoon

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Aug 2009 21:09

The US will sell horses and control their feed.

The rest - all of them - will provide horses and promise to send the saddles latter on. Saddles that may not fit or be of use to India.

IMHO, Rafale and/or Grippen - as is. When AESA comes, so be it. Or contract with Israel to fit it after the fact.

Consider US ONLY IF ENR comes first. And, Baluchistan is granted freedom.

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 05 Aug 2009 22:13

The problem with buying Russian aircrafts is that we're already largely dependent on them to maintain nearly half our fleet of aircraft's.

In addition to the 230 Su-30-MKI if we were to buy another 126+60 MRCA then we're stuck to Russia for maintenance and spares issues for 400 of our aircraft's.Thats half of our fighter fleet in addition to a good chunk of our transport fleet being Russian.

We need to diversify.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Aug 2009 22:39

There is a problem with MRCA itself. Outside of the too slim IAF putting on some weight and the IAF dictating terms, everything with this MRCA has a negative connotation. No matter who the supplier is - the vendor/supplier and the country of origin will ask and get its pound of flesh and plenty of blood. The simple reason is that India failed to place ITS horse in this stupid, uncalled for, race.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 05 Aug 2009 22:47

whats worrying about the mmrca deal is that all contenders have negatives

mig-35--good jet,,but buying it may increase dependence upon russians,who like gorshkov may then start severe arm twisting

f-16--towards end of service life,,,porkis have thenn,we need to get something new

f-18---less tech transfer and slow speed,,heavy

typhoon---high cost,,still no aesa,,aesa only in prototype stage,,,even members are cancelling orders,like britain which has diverted 72 typhoons to saudis

gripen--politically not good deal,,,similarity to tejas mk2,,

rafale,,,--the best of pack but tooooooooooooooooo costly,,we can get 4 mig-35 at that price

Anthony Hines · Post by **Anthony Hines** » 05 Aug 2009 23:24

It's all flesh trade (horse flesh that is) - so can this be called horse flesh trade?

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 05 Aug 2009 23:26

Now that the evaluations are about to begin, I wish we had a better idea of what the evaluations comprise of. We know of the hot weather and cold weather trials. But does anyone know what kind of tests we put the aircraft through? Do we actually put it up against something to simulate an actual engagement? I wonder if there are specific tests for manouverability, climb rate, stall, etc.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 06 Aug 2009 00:07

Multilateral European projects are notorious for their petty politicking, bureaucratic decision making & funding delays. Eg. Galileo, A400m tanker are couple of examples. Plus with financial crisis, most European countries are trying to cut their military budgets & it is highly likely that future upgrades might be delayed. IMHO, it would be a huge mistake go for the Eurofighter from this perspective.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 06 Aug 2009 00:20

ramana wrote:Err not in aerospace areas but high energy physics for experiments of theoretical formulations.

Ok.. I will get it out of my system...

India is doing all right in the HEP effort. India is part of small group of non-european countries that has "observer status" and also contributed to construction of the Large Hadron Collidor, LHC (that is used to record events caused by colliding particles) at CERN. LHC was the "evil machine" that was going to create a black hole on Earth and consume Earth.
Indian chips on track for ALICE
Can't put my finger on it, but India also provided other components for the experiment.

On the US version of CERN (Fermilab), India is allowed a relatively smaller role. Though there is some push on this front in recent years, am not sure if anything concrete materialized.

Bottomline, CERN is already a pretty collaborative effort and India is plugged. So nothing much to leverage from MRCA deal on HEP.

Maybe it was different decades ago, but right now for India, it is a case of "unable to justify such huge investments" rather than "not having access to technologies to prove your theories".

Charu · Post by **Charu** » 06 Aug 2009 00:42

''mig-35--good jet,,but buying it may increase dependence upon russians,who like gorshkov may then start severe arm twisting

f-16--towards end of service life,,,porkis have thenn,we need to get something new

f-18---less tech transfer and slow speed,,heavy

typhoon---high cost,,still no aesa,,aesa only in prototype stage,,,even members are cancelling orders,like britain which has diverted 72 typhoons to saudis

gripen--politically not good deal,,,similarity to tejas mk2,,

rafale,,,--the best of pack but tooooooooooooooooo costly,,we can get 4 mig-35 at that price''

Best & Final Offer for Rafale may totally differ from quoted price...it may be a ploy to keep competitors confused. Definitely Rafale is a very advanced jet fighter and anyday I would keep it on top of my wish list.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Aug 2009 01:01

Cain Marko wrote: Alas what would the poor IAF know, they operate 100s of russsian migs onlee. Poor blokes saddled with poor quality russian migs, flankers and what not.

CM

CM, in B_patel's defence, you have to agree that there is a big difference in the build qualities and total service lives for the western and Russian fighters, bar the MKI..

You may recall the article in Vayu that was written by Air Marshal Harish Masand about how the difference in build qualities between the MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 when parked side by side was apparent. even when it comes to TTL, the Mirage exceeds the MiG-29 by nearly 2000 hours (at 6000 hours vs 4000 hours for the MiG-29). of course, I'm not mentioning performance, which is a strong point for Russian fighters. but finesse, ergonomics, etc. definitely not.

Charu · Post by **Charu** » 06 Aug 2009 01:09

Can somebody say whether our indegenous Air Defence Ship is CATOBAR or STOBAR? As far as muy understanding goes both F 18 Super Hornet and Rafale are CATOBAR. MiG 29 KUB is a STOBAR a/c for INS Vikramaditya which is essentially STOBAR.

Will the MRCA tender take into consideration naval variants of Rafale or Super Hornet for its decision process ?? Perhaps only time will tell......

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 06 Aug 2009 01:18

Charu wrote:''mig-35--good jet,,but buying it may increase dependence upon russians,who like gorshkov may then start severe arm twisting

f-16--towards end of service life,,,porkis have thenn,we need to get something new

f-18---less tech transfer and slow speed,,heavy

typhoon---high cost,,still no aesa,,aesa only in prototype stage,,,even members are cancelling orders,like britain which has diverted 72 typhoons to saudis

gripen--politically not good deal,,,similarity to tejas mk2,,

rafale,,,--the best of pack but tooooooooooooooooo costly,,we can get 4 mig-35 at that price''

Mig35 -- A Jet that even the Russian Airforce cant be bothered about and another attempt by the Russians to pimp 70s technology with a few modern add-ons to gullible third world countries!

F-16 -- Developed by the very same people who developed the F-22 and the F-35 and is also about 30 years old.

F-18E/F -- The only aircraft that exemplifies the terms "Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft" in every sense of the word and a worthy replacement to the old horse Mig-21.

EF Typhoon -- The European envious reply to the F-22 project which they were left out of. Built mostly by people who havent really fought a war since WW2 like Germany and Spain and now virtually condemned !

Grippen -- The Scandinavian hat in the ring. Again built by people who havent ever fought an air battle in more than 60 years but are looking to make some quick money.

Rafael -- Built by the condescending blowhards who have lost every major conflict in the last 200 years-The French; who sell submarines, nuclear technology and whatever they can to Pakistan while they ALSO try to sell you the same with unapologetic exuberance!

It doesnt really matter which aircraft the Indians choose, the probability of them being used in any significant way is small. However, looking at the future where unmanned aircraft are going to be the norm, it would be best to pave a path that would secure technologies for that future; which means - invest in American !

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Aug 2009 01:41

Kartik,

Quality is a pretty ambiguous term. What do we mean by it? Quality in finish? Availability? Quality in durability? Quality in performance? quality in production stds? When I think of fighters, I primarily focus on performance and hence my reaction.

As you say in terms of finish and TTL, western fighters score higher esp. in comparing the m2k and fulcrum. No disagreement there, the soviets seemed to have designed and developed with the idea of "use and throw" in mind. At the same time, the mig is known to be a pretty ruggedized beast and was often designed to work from poor strips. Also, how far does the finish matter for a product that is primarily used for war so long as it delivers (which by all accounts it does).

For the MRCA though, what does not work in favor of the fulcrum is
a) India has too many russki products being developed as we speak (of a better technology than than the 35). So what access to what tech can the 35 give india that the Pakfa, MKI, MiG-29k programs cannot?
b) The IAF did have a doctrine of diversification (however,marginal its importance may be under an umbrella of massive TOT).
c) To some extent, the fulcrum has marginal weaknesses in certain areas related to performance. It is certainly not the very best performer either A2A or A2G. IOWs, it is good enough for the most part, but does not excel in every parameter.

126 of these birds @ 12 billion $$s would probly be too high a price to pay for something that is "good enough". What might make the fulcrum impossible to overlook though is if the bird is offered @ really low prices or mig pulls off something really wild (not happening)!

CM

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 06 Aug 2009 02:21

Charu wrote:Can somebody say whether our indegenous Air Defence Ship is CATOBAR or STOBAR? As far as muy understanding goes both F 18 Super Hornet and Rafale are CATOBAR. MiG 29 KUB is a STOBAR a/c for INS Vikramaditya which is essentially STOBAR.

Will the MRCA tender take into consideration naval variants of Rafale or Super Hornet for its decision process ?? Perhaps only time will tell......

The SH is currently CATOBAR but Boeing has certified that it will work with a 'substantial payload' off the ski jump on the Gorshkov

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Aug 2009 02:54

Charu wrote:
Will the MRCA tender take into consideration naval variants of Rafale or Super Hornet for its decision process ?? Perhaps only time will tell......

Not much worth, however, a 2008 report:

Indian Navy Interested In F/A 18 Super Hornets For INS Vikramaditya

The Indian Navy has asked Boeing for the use of its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet supersonic carrier-based fighter aircraft on board a Russian-made carrier, Russian daily Izvestia said on Thursday.

A Boeing spokesman confirmed that his company had received a request from India for use of the fighters on board the Vikramaditya, formerly named the Admiral Gorshkov.

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 06 Aug 2009 02:59

What do we mean by it? Quality in finish? Availability? Quality in durability? Quality in performance? quality in production stds? When I think of fighters, I primarily focus on performance and hence my reaction.

When i said quality i was referring to durability and performance. Also I never said the Flankers were poor quality aircraft, only the Migs. India learned the hard way about how short the life span of their migs were. Hence the Flankers are maintained much better (1 crash in 10+ years is incredible). Performance wise the Mig-35 does not offer anything new that the SU-30MKI does not already have (except an AESA). Hell the Mig-35 has a jury rigged self-protection jammer. Performance wise its the weakest out of all the contenders and i don't expect its prototype AESA to match the Gripens or Rafale that are under development.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Aug 2009 05:02

Cain Marko wrote:Kartik,

Quality is a pretty ambiguous term. What do we mean by it? Quality in finish? Availability? Quality in durability? Quality in performance? quality in production stds? When I think of fighters, I primarily focus on performance and hence my reaction.

lets talk about the things you've listed regarding the MiG-29 and Mirage-2000
Quality in finish- Mirage 2000 hands down

Quality in durability- can be gauged by the engine MTBF, radar MTBF and from what is known, the Mirage-2000 wins in this area as well

Quality in availability- Mirage-2000s in the IAF have a stellar record, with their squadrons having a higher mission availability rate than any MiG equipped squadron. during Kargil, a very large bulk of the sorties were flown by the 2 Mirage-2000 squadrons then- and only 1 sortie was aborted due to technical issues with the fighter. a phenomenal 99.99% availability. MiG-29s have had a bad reputation due to several issues, spares being one of them, as well as engine troubles.

Quality in performance- here, the Fulcrum wins hands-down, going by what AM Masand wrote in his article. it was really eye-opening for me, a passionate Mirage fan.

Quality in production standards- well here again Western production methods are considered superior to those of Russian manufacturing processes. the one thing that HAL can gain from the MRCA is advanced manufacturing technologies from the European or US manufacturers.

so you see, the western fighter is more expensive, but to say that it has no advantages at all, or that performance alone counts, is wrong. what use is a grounded fighter against an enemy when in need, even if it could whip the enemy when it would fly ?

here again, I must say that the Su-30MKI is really an exception to the rule for almost all of the above.

As you say in terms of finish and TTL, western fighters score higher esp. in comparing the m2k and fulcrum. No disagreement there, the soviets seemed to have designed and developed with the idea of "use and throw" in mind. At the same time, the mig is known to be a pretty ruggedized beast and was often designed to work from poor strips. Also, how far does the finish matter for a product that is primarily used for war so long as it delivers (which by all accounts it does).

yes, the Russians designed their fighters to operate from poorly paved or unclean airstrips- that gives an advantage in one situation, but that does not mean that you reduce the importance of reliability and longevitivity and tom-tom ruggedness and performance. there is a reason for why the IAF's ASQR's for the LCA wanted a fighter like the nimble, reliable and multi-role Mirage-2000 and not a "rugged, performance optimised but unreliable" MiG.

For the MRCA though, what does not work in favor of the fulcrum is
a) India has too many russki products being developed as we speak (of a better technology than than the 35). So what access to what tech can the 35 give india that the Pakfa, MKI, MiG-29k programs cannot?
b) The IAF did have a doctrine of diversification (however,marginal its importance may be under an umbrella of massive TOT).
c) To some extent, the fulcrum has marginal weaknesses in certain areas related to performance. It is certainly not the very best performer either A2A or A2G. IOWs, it is good enough for the most part, but does not excel in every parameter.

and I agree with all the above. dependence on any one supplier is detrimental to our independent policy making..as could getting too close to the US. a European solution is ideal, albeit costly.

126 of these birds @ 12 billion $$s would probly be too high a price to pay for something that is "good enough". What might make the fulcrum impossible to overlook though is if the bird is offered @ really low prices or mig pulls off something really wild (not happening)!

CM

unlikely that they could offer it really cheap. I'd expect it to be priced around $ 55-60 million at least, considering its avionics fit.

MarcH · Post by **MarcH** » 06 Aug 2009 07:45

One thing one has to ask is if the selection of MiG-35 would increase the reliance on Russia or if the opposite is true.
I mean if India gets to produce the MiG and most of it's subsystems, wouldn't it mean the sparepart supply chain for MiG-29K and the then MiG-29 SMT would be mostly under Indian control ?
But then the question would arise, why not new built MiG-29 K/SMT at firesale prices. Result would be a true, cheap stopgap until LCA, MCA and FGFA are available.

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Aug 2009 09:58

I have read it that Hezbollah tried to use stinger systems against Israel's F-16s and attack choppers, but they would not lock on to any of them due to some in built logic.
I'm really worried that in times of conflict the weapons purchased from USA could have similar characteristics.
But a still major cause of concern would be the electronic rigging of delivery systems like AESA which could contain passive listeners in them that when provided with suitable signal, take the system down or worst do some really bad things.

These if exist can not be identified as we are not supposed to look into their systems(EUMA).

I did watch Eagle Eye movie by the way.

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 06 Aug 2009 10:16

F-18s, F-16s racing to reach Bangalore for trials
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 861150.cms

The latest version of the F-16 incorporates the advanced avionics, stealth ( ) and other critical systems of our F-22 and the F-35 jets, the only two fifth generation fighters currently flying. Lockheed believes F-16 is the fastest path for the IAF to the fifth-generation fighter.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Aug 2009 10:32

Kartik,

Obviously, both designs/types have their pros/cons. The idea was not to diss a "western" bird at all. Btw, is there any thing on mig-29 uptimes during kargil?

B_Patel,
Rest assured the fulcrum offers certain distinct advantages in terms of performance. As far as jury-rigged EW suites go, what do you have on the MKIs? Where is the LWS on the falcon or shornet, the HMS on the EF/Rafale, the IRST on the shornet, the canted pylons on the shornet? These kinks can/will be sorted out (no hope for the canted pylons though).

CM

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 06 Aug 2009 15:38

Brando wrote:It doesnt really matter which aircraft the Indians choose, the probability of them being used in any significant way is small. However, looking at the future where unmanned aircraft are going to be the norm, it would be best to pave a path that would secure technologies for that future; which means - invest in American !

You got it backwards - spending money on American military equipment is not "investment" it is liability! You hear MMS talking about how India is "involved" in Balochistan, you will get a lot more of that with the "investment".

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Aug 2009 15:40

I have been reliably informed-shown a document rated "Above Top Secret" for the MMRCA,regarding the testing regime about to begin.The IAF's top test pilots will be sent in secret to evauate the contenders,details given below.

!.The "Grip-In".

This sultry sensation from Sweden will be tested in Stockholm's "Malmskillnadsgatan" district (if you can pronounce that correctly,you get a free ride),the city's famous "firing range".Diplomats have in the past been caught snooping in this famous locality suffering from "Stockholm Sin-drome".The Swedes claim that when it comes to "sex-bombs",they have no global equivalent,as their birds give one the best "grip" (hence the name of their touted bird),plus she can carry a "load" specified by any customer.She also comes on offer as the cheapest of the western birds.However,she has been banned from using an AESA (American Engineered Sex Aid) which might lessen her chances.

2.The F-16 "F**k-In".

Testing will be done at Lockheed's world famous firing range,"The best little whorehouse in Texas",but sadly to be closed down soon.
This famous American bird has won the hearts of pilots worldwide and is easily distinguished by the inviting shape of its underbelly "intake".Though she has been on the market for decades and has been used by countless air forces,her chief marketing asset is that since "everyone has had her,so must we".
We are not so sure though whether our air force will like to share this bird with our western neighbour who has already "had her"!

3. "Mikoyan's MIG-35".

From Moscow's famous "Bordo" gentleman's club.
There's nothing "coy" about this bird,known simply by her number,actually a position not even found in the Kamasutra.This Russian gymnast (and they're the best!) can outperform any western bird in the sky with her acrobatics,even surpassing her fellow comrade,the "SUK-30",She can do the "cobra",the "kulbit" (somersault) and even the "tail slide"! Just imagine her somersaulting over you,striking like a cobra,wiggling her TVC ass in any direction as her "tail" slides down your joystick!

4.The F-18 "Super-Horny".

Once again another veteran from America's dreamland! You'll be "Sleepless in Seattle" with this stripper ,who is as extensivley touted as her compatriot the F**k-In.Though quite matronly and long in the tooth,this bird has had dentistry,a boob-job and Botox done on her to keep her looking attractive.She claims that she is the most experienced at carrying any kind of load and as for "deep penetration" missions,"Deep Throat" is unmatched! She has serviced many a client from numerous western allies,but is fast approaching her sell-by date and will be replaced in Boeing's bordello by the JSF (figure that one out for yourselves!).

5.The "Rafale".
Zis name means "a gust of wind",not something that you would like to experience from her nether end what?! Zat is why ze French make ze best perfumes.Nevertheless,zis exquisite French cabaret artiste from the Pigalle,has ze most sinuous form of all ze birds ,with perfectly shaped boobs,a classic waist and a backside like a peach.She has a vast repertoire of tricks and can perform any item you'ld like from ze Moulin Rouge,ze Lido or ze Crazy Horse.She has a "rate of climb" like ze "Tour Eiffel" to send a pilot into ze highest heaven!

6.The "Thigh-fun".
This young bird is a rare beauty with the genes of four nations in her.She is combination of Aryan blue-eyes and teutonic boobs,the flaming hair of a Spanish gypsy,the thunder thighs of a Jersey cow and enjoys partaking in Roman orgies.She even claims to be able to have a better "cock-pit" than even the Russian Queen,the SUK-30! She is the hottest and newest bird on the block and is being heavily touted by her four pimps.They even say that she can teach our very own desi "Rani",the LCA (Late "Come" Artist) some new tricks to raise her performance.A mouthwatering prospect,but very expensive!

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 06 Aug 2009 16:31

Never laughed so hard at any BRF post..

Phil.. your post is quite indicative of where were you last night..

.. still in the hangover mode

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 06 Aug 2009 16:37

Do you call that hangover? Or is it something else you call it?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Aug 2009 16:41

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Aug 2009 16:49

Philip wrote:I have been reliably informed-shown a document rated "Above Top Secret" for the MMRCA,regarding the testing regime about to begin.The IAF's top test pilots will be sent in secret to evauate the contenders,details given below.

!.The "Grip-In".

This sultry sensation from Sweden will be tested in Stockholm's "Malmskillnadsgatan" district (if you can pronounce that correctly,you get a free ride),the city's famous "firing range".Diplomats have in the past been caught snooping in this famous locality suffering from "Stockholm Sin-drome".The Swedes claim that when it comes to "sex-bombs",they have no global equivalent,as their birds give one the best "grip" (hence the name of their touted bird),plus she can carry a "load" specified by any customer.She also comes on offer as the cheapest of the western birds.However,she has been banned from using an AESA (American Engineered Sex Aid) which might lessen her chances.

2.The F-16 "F**k-In".

Testing will be done at Lockheed's world famous firing range,"The best little whorehouse in Texas",but sadly to be closed down soon.
This famous American bird has won the hearts of pilots worldwide and is easily distinguished by the inviting shape of its underbelly "intake".Though she has been on the market for decades and has been used by countless air forces,her chief marketing asset is that since "everyone has had her,so must we".
We are not so sure though whether our air force will like to share this bird with our western neighbour who has already "had her"!

3. "Mikoyan's MIG-35".

From Moscow's famous "Bordo" gentleman's club.
There's nothing "coy" about this bird,known simply by her number,actually a position not even found in the Kamasutra.This Russian gymnast (and they're the best!) can outperform any western bird in the sky with her acrobatics,even surpassing her fellow comrade,the "SUK-30",She can do the "cobra",the "kulbit" (somersault) and even the "tail slide"! Just imagine her somersaulting over you,striking like a cobra,wiggling her TVC ass in any direction as her "tail" slides down your joystick!

4.The F-18 "Super-Horny".

Once again another veteran from America's dreamland! You'll be "Sleepless in Seattle" with this stripper ,who is as extensivley touted as her compatriot the F**k-In.Though quite matronly and long in the tooth,this bird has had dentistry,a boob-job and Botox done on her to keep her looking attractive.She claims that she is the most experienced at carrying any kind of load and as for "deep penetration" missions,"Deep Throat" is unmatched! She has serviced many a client from numerous western allies,but is fast approaching her sell-by date and will be replaced in Boeing's bordello by the JSF (figure that one out for yourselves!).

5.The "Rafale".
Zis name means "a gust of wind",not something that you would like to experience from her nether end what?! Zat is why ze French make ze best perfumes.Nevertheless,zis exquisite French cabaret artiste from the Pigalle,has ze most sinuous form of all ze birds ,with perfectly shaped boobs,a classic waist and a backside like a peach.She has a vast repertoire of tricks and can perform any item you'ld like from ze Moulin Rouge,ze Lido or ze Crazy Horse.She has a "rate of climb" like ze "Tour Eiffel" to send a pilot into ze highest heaven!

6.The "Thigh-fun".
This young bird is a rare beauty with the genes of four nations in her.She is combination of Aryan blue-eyes and teutonic boobs,the flaming hair of a Spanish gypsy,the thunder thighs of a Jersey cow and enjoys partaking in Roman orgies.She even claims to be able to have a better "cock-pit" than even the Russian Queen,the SUK-30! She is the hottest and newest bird on the block and is being heavily touted by her four pimps.They even say that she can teach our very own desi "Rani",the LCA (Late Come Artist) some new tricks to raise her performance.A mouthwatering prospect,but very expensive!

Jeese man, you are tal ented !

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 06 Aug 2009 23:19

Russia, feeling the pressure to make a better offer, has promised to add to the MiG-35C(S?) to its fleet

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... f0e5f65e77

edit: another link
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20090805/155736575.html

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 06 Aug 2009 23:21

Phillip,

You are challenging Singha's unrivalled position on this forum.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 06 Aug 2009 23:21

Bangalore sky to host biggest airfight
The grand finale in the fight to win the largest-ever single order placed by the Indian Air force (IAF) for 126 medium-weight multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) will begin in Bangalore on Friday, when a team of Boeing officials will land in the city to finalise the details of the test trials.

http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/repor ... ht_1280112

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 06 Aug 2009 23:34

Come to think of it, the French and Russian almost never 'sanction' equipment transfers. You could blame them for price negotiations, jacking up the counter price and other such trivial issues but you'd be hard pressed to find the French or Russian suppliers having to withhold supplies to the extent that our prepardness is affected.

The USA is simply a partner we can't trust. I understand it is important to buy some equipment from the USA too but I suppose it would be good idea to source equipment like C-130's for the special forces and other such relatively small ticket items. If need be we ought to be prepared to keep up decent force levels without any supplies from the USA.

200 F-18/F-16s give USA a lot of leverage over India.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 06 Aug 2009 23:49

Anabhaya wrote:Come to think of it, the French and Russian almost never 'sanction' equipment transfers.

France does it a lot, they just haven't done it to India yet.

China, Israel, Argentina, Iran, Myanmar . . .

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 07 Aug 2009 00:06

Anabhaya wrote:
200 F-18/F-16s give USA a lot of leverage over India.

As opposed to the 230 Russian Sukhoi MKI's, 100 odd Mig-21s, 100 odd Mig-27s ? Not to mention the close to 2500 Indian army tanks, APC's etc .

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 07 Aug 2009 00:10

Brando wrote:As opposed to the 230 Russian Sukhoi MKI's, 100 odd Mig-21s, 100 odd Mig-27s ? Not to mention the close to 2500 Indian army tanks, APC's etc .

USSR never imposed a sanction on India like US did. While Russia continued to help us out on nuclear submarine and other projects. And Russia supplied arms to us when required. The US imposed sanctions post nuclear test and refused to sell parts to seaking helicopters basically grounding them. That was the reason that when India purchased Hawk from UK, it ensured that no US part was on that aircraft.

Even now, after signing civil nuclear deal with India, it is trying to wiggle out of selling ENR technology to India and rallying other countries to do the same.

The US is a fickle vendor and has more mood swings than a insecure woman experiencing menopause!!