INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Aug 2009 18:07

Or it could be a new Design based on what India needs , like a custom designed and built sub.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 07 Aug 2009 18:09

But Arihant even in the wildest specs is only 124m long as opposed to the 166m behemoth that delta 4 was, I agree the sloping surface around the sail could be influenced by Delta-4 but thats not much to go by is it? Arihant will probably show influence of Delta-4/Akula/Charlie and kilos.
This is what people on Mr Aroors blog seem to have agreed upon.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arihant.svg

Doesn't look like any delta class or borei or akulas

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Aug 2009 18:47

For the spindly shape might be inspired by the .. Nautilus , Captain Nemo's legendary sub

http://home.att.net/~Karen.Crisafulli/GustavZede.html

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 07 Aug 2009 19:05

Austin wrote:Or it could be a new Design based on what India needs , like a custom designed and built sub.

No picture itself even made with microscop can prove external involvement in design. It can only support this fact or not (in this case it does ). Only information from the insiders can be seen as a proof if especially it's leaked from different independent sources as it happend about Russian involvemant in ATV development.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 07 Aug 2009 19:14

Most ships/submarines worldwide use an existing template and evolve on it.

I would use the analogy of the Rajput -> Delhi -> Kolkata and Whitby -> Leander -> Godavari -> Brahmaputra to explain this evolution.

Kolkata/Delhi shares quite a lot of features of the Rajput, like high prow for good seakeeping in rough weather, positioning of the torpedo tubes amidships, medium range SAM’s fore and aft, COGAG propulsion, minor design similarities of the superstructure, etc. But this is where the similarity ends. Full load displacement of Rajput is 5000 tons while full load displacement of Delhi is 6700 tons. The twin hangers indicate an ASW focus. Internal arrangement, weapons and sensor fit is radically different.

As my understanding goes, Arihant used a Charlie template but built differently to specific Indian needs.

Visual comparisons are useless – No one can look at Brahmaputra and trace its lineage back to Whitby.

Similarly, assessment of potency/performance based on lineage are useless – compare Brahmaputra’s weapons/sensors vis-à-vis Whitby’s.

So yes, Arihant is an Indian submarine as much as Delhi is an Indian destroyer.

Yes, Arihant has Russian influences. However it isn’t a Xerox copy of any specific class.

Arihant’s potency/performance vis-à-vis Charlie is analogous to Brahmaputra’s potency/performance vis-à-vis Whitby.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Aug 2009 19:52

Yes, Arihant has Russian influences. However it isn’t a Xerox copy of any specific class.

There are a few reasons for this confusion.

For one IF one were to assume that Indians are incapable of designing, then yes, rust bucket Charlie it is. No matter how much the dissimilarities - Indians do not have the capabilities is the assumption.

Next Russian consultants. Now, IF India really cannot design, then all the more reason that the consultants were providing ToT. The first bullet point only helps make the second one even more realistic looking.

The 150+ Russian consultants. 150 Russian consultants were there to make the Indian sub look like ............. whatever. We tend to forget that these guys would have consulted on various systems of the sub, not just how it looks.

We also have the 9:1 ratios stuff. Do 9 things good one thing bad and ALL we talk about is that one bad thing. We have to give up this bad Pakistani mentality.

Of course, take a 10 minute event, manipulate every other minutes of it, and voila we have a rust bucket based on the Charlie. Present pictures from 1950s, cite articles that do not matter ........................

Who cares?

What I would be interested in is how many of these consultant will be retained for the next 4 SSBNs.

Can India build her own diesel-electric and export them to Taiwan.

Will such subs influence the region.

Will Indian politicians wake up.

I really do not care what a retired (or for that matter an active) politician/diplomat thinks, as long as a Arihant makes them dissolve ISI - for instance.

Things need to happen. +ve things.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Aug 2009 20:13

I would recommend a little more openness from GoI on the Arihant.
DDM needs to be told by someone who is media savvy as well as an expert on defence matters about the acheivements that Indian science and engineering have reached with the Arihant.

DDM's reaction is a little expected. The project was secret for so many years, there was no update on it, no flypast like the stunning LCA performance at Aero India.

Perhaps the Arihant has to do a rapid emergence from the sea like those american subs do to wow the media into submission.

Until GoI drops some tidbits for people to chew on, it will continue to be a 'charlie derived' sub. Tomorrow if there is a delay in induction, you can expect wailing in the media about russian or indian tech.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 07 Aug 2009 20:21

Why should IN compromise its subs capabilities to please the jholawala DDM's? Let them eat horse manure and die as far as I am concerned.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Aug 2009 20:24

How much of the LCA's secrets were let out in a fly past or in the display at aero india? Or the fact that the media was let in on the hot weather trials and the high altitude trials to take pictures?
That was all good PR without compromising on secrecy.
India is going to build three Arihant class vessels. There needs to be more confidence shown on the sub.
The moment the sub is pulled out of the SBC, either a satellite or someone around the dock is going to photograph it. Size and displacement approximations will be available.
The national geographic series on the Indian Navy didn't give out any secrets, the only impression I had was 'wow' the IN does this?
Most Indians don't know what a sub looks like. That foxtrot museum on the vizag beach is all that people can see. Then the more educated ones get to see a crimson tide / red october like thing, where the Americans are reinforcing pax-americana. We need to do the same here.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Aug 2009 20:34

Sorry there is no need to know about till about it till we have more interesting things on the way.

An SSBN is not a fighter jet - the more ambiguity the better

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 07 Aug 2009 20:37

LCA will never be our premier fighter. Arihant and follow on are are premier subs. Keep them hidden.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Aug 2009 20:41

The value of an Arihant - the first is beyond merely being a secret SSBN.
Because it is the first ever, there needs to be more open-ness about it. It is a tech acheivement by India.
Its operations will always remain secret. The real secrets are the frequency of its sonar, its capabilities, the capability of the software used, the silencing on the sub, the capabilities and reliability of the reactor, the configuration of the weapon systems it is carrying on a particular mission, its area of deployment, its ability to communicate with Bharatiya Nabhakiya Kamaan, the capability of its countermeasures to name a few.
None of these are compromised by a little more openness.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Aug 2009 20:50

vavinash wrote:LCA will never be our premier fighter. Arihant and follow on are are premier subs. Keep them hidden.

Nein Nyet.

The arihant is to be followed by larger and truer SSBNs for the IN. 4 Agni 3 SLs with MIRVed 3 warheads on each is not enough to deter china. Because three arihants mean only one or max two are deployed. 4-8 Agni 3's are I think a little less, if you're thinking of the many fishes who have access to the Indian ocean, amongst them the Chinese and the pakis for sure. Some love and brotherhood also needs to be directed towards the kangaroos down under, because evidently similar love and affection displayed by the Chinese towards them has made them most pliant towards chinese interests.

If the LCA gets inducted in the numbers that the Mig-21 currently are, it will very much be the backbone of the IAF along with the MRCAs, and the Jaguars, the MKI's and the Migs.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Aug 2009 20:59

vavinash wrote:LCA will never be our premier fighter. Arihant and follow on are are premier subs. Keep them hidden.

I am not sure that any AF will subscribe to a "premier" air craft concept. Granted that there is favoritism and the like, but each AC is designed for a certain purpose. LCA will have its place - IAF has put its $$ where their mouth is.

THIS sub also has its place and once it hits the open seas there are enough probes to figure out what it is.

It is important that India gets to be good at this game.

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 07 Aug 2009 21:05

Let the Arihant be. There's still trials and the whole lot to be done.

All that I want is a reassurance that the next sub would at a minimum carry 8 K-X missiles.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 07 Aug 2009 21:32

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 707909.jpg

It it just me or there isn't any periscope or communication gizmos on top of ATV or this pic is from its construction days?

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 07 Aug 2009 21:38

Let the Arihant be. There's still trials and the whole lot to be done.

I agree. It's too early to reveal anything yet. They have to complete trials first to know if the designed parameters and trial values match.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Aug 2009 21:42

That is what the sail will look like when all the periscopes and masts are retracted inside the sail. It seems OK.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Aug 2009 21:58

Anabhaya wrote:Let the Arihant be. There's still trials and the whole lot to be done.

All that I want is a reassurance that the next sub would at a minimum carry 8 K-X missiles.

Gagan or Krishna, On a plan view of your renderings try to fit in eight circles and see what it does to the shape and size of the platform.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 07 Aug 2009 22:25

Sid wrote:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 707909.jpg

It it just me or there isn't any periscope or communication gizmos on top of ATV or this pic is from its construction days?

The pic has been highly modified using MS paint, they have taken the masts off the sub, u can see it if u observe closely.

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 07 Aug 2009 22:55

Gagan or Krishna, On a plan view of your renderings try to fit in eight circles and see what it does to the shape and size of the platform.

Good idea, Ramana. A fleet of 3 SSBNs each armed with 8 K-X missiles would mean a minimum of 16 missiles ready 'on patrol' with another 8 in the third sub can be in maintenance.

It would be a decent start.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 07 Aug 2009 23:13

>>>>If dont we know about Russian input, we could see the resemblance in sail design and around the sail hull form as a coincidence, but since the Russian involvement in Arihant design is a fact, confirmed directly or by implication, the question is only what proved design of existant Russian SSBN (or SSN) was took as a base for Arihant development. The pictures says it could be only Delta class. ie not Charlie, Borey, Akula etc.

May be you have a point there. Unconfirmed reports suggest that the SHP is 20,000. And for the DGND to fiddle around, they need a proven and reliable design. Here the Delta 4 Fits in well.

What I feel ( pure conjecture from unconfirmed reports) is that they may have llooked at the Delta IV design and modified it heavily to suit Indian requirements.

Thus :

They reduced the length from 167 M to 110 (or whatever) because we decided not to put 16 missiles to begin with, reduced the hump behind sail drastically (because our missile is much shorter than the 13.7 m Russian one), keeping the Dia same ( removes major headache of hull design) and streamlined the shape. Now for the smaller boat, we need much less power, hence one reactor would do. Removal of one reactor also contributes to reduction in size.

Again, pure conjecture based on the external hull shape, reactor & SHP inputs from somewhat reliable source.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 08 Aug 2009 00:34

rajsunder wrote:
Sid wrote:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 707909.jpg

It it just me or there isn't any periscope or communication gizmos on top of ATV or this pic is from its construction days?
The pic has been highly modified using MS paint, they have taken the masts off the sub, u can see it if u observe closely.

hmm... looks so. But when i zoomed in i could only see black holes (maybe that's the PS part...maybe).

my concern is ATV's full construction complete or some part is still left (in this case the mast and other comm equipment)? or we launched ATV in a hurry to tone down ever increasing chinki pressure.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 08 Aug 2009 00:48

Its probably the other way around. We probably completed it long time ago and who knows which sample number this is. But we are willing to show we have teeth too at this point to tell it "frak off" nicely.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Aug 2009 01:40

If dont we know about Russian input, we could see the resemblance in sail design and around the sail hull form as a coincidence, but since the Russian involvement in Arihant design is a fact, confirmed directly or by implication, the question is only what proved design of existant Russian SSBN (or SSN) was took as a base for Arihant development. The pictures says it could be only Delta class. ie not Charlie, Borey, Akula etc.

Consultants, ALL of us, have a bias. A bias towards what we know. What we know or experience is our limitation. We can read or look at or play around with other ideas or models, etc, but when push comes to shove, we will always revert to what we know.

So, the Russian consultants would have driven the design to what they know. While the Indian side would have pressured the consultants to designs the Indians felt is more advantageous. Because both sides want least amount of risk, they will always move towards the more experienced (Russian consultants) with some amount of newer thoughts from the client (India).

It always happens, exceptions are when a client wants a ground-up brand new, not anywhere, design.

When I follow other consultants I can tell who has been ahead of me or the other way around (even though we are consulting in different aspects of a project).

With stories of an earlier effort being scrapped, I am inclined to believe that the Arihant is an Indian design that due to Russian consultancy has a bias towards a Russian design. But, I doubt - and I could be wrong - that it is based on a Russian submarine template.

I think the future subs will provide the amount of design knowledge that India actually possesses. We just need to wait till that happens. Granted it will be a very long wait.

But, unlike the MKI I feel that the Indian side has absorbed a LOT more details on subs in general and (as our Paki friends would term it) rust-bucket nuclear subs in particular.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Aug 2009 07:12

Sid wrote:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 707909.jpg

It it just me or there isn't any periscope or communication gizmos on top of ATV or this pic is from its construction days?

Actually there is not even any place for humans to enter. Maybe the pressure from China was so high that they made the sub public even before cutting a hole for the sailors to get in?

More seriously this is a cellphone camera image and I am noteven convinced that it is genuine. Like people in a desert seeing mirages we are grabbing hold of any image and attributing great value to it.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 08 Aug 2009 07:54

More importantly, how come nobody is commenting on the fact that the govt has shamelessly timed the launch of Arihant with Vijay Diwas, the 10th Anniversary of the Kargil Invasion, so that they can distract the public from their poor conduct during that war, as well as their wider record of poor conduct on national security, including their latest capitulations to Pakistan?

Statesmanship is sacrificed for stuntsmanship, and talking loudly about a submarine in no way changes the fact that India's ship of state is sinking. What a fitting symbol then for MMS's soaked-head style of leadership.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 08 Aug 2009 09:32

I say drop all DE projects after scoprs and give money to L&T etc to make 30 SSNs & SSBNs in next 15 years

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 08 Aug 2009 09:45

...shamelessly timed the launch of Arihant with Vijay Diwas, the 10th Anniversary of the Kargil Invasion, so that....

I see no problem with 'using' a defence project to refurbish a political image when it is legitimate.

There are many symbolisms being used here. One that has passed comment is the fact that it was not the supreme commander of the forces who launched this ship. It was a 75 year old kaur.
Pakistanis are not so Arab that they don't understand what that means.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 08 Aug 2009 11:00

ramana wrote:Gagan or Krishna, On a plan view of your renderings try to fit in eight circles and see what it does to the shape and size of the platform.

I put in 6 x 2 = 12 VLS cells. I had fun making this out of the earlier diagram. Essentially I put in a mid section much like the designers would do on the real thing.

Since this is a SDRE sub design, the VLS cells are sort of in between each other and not opposite each other, saving on the sub's width. The other dimensions are increased slightly (Say 11 m dia -> 13m. Length 112m -> 140m)

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 08 Aug 2009 11:07

Sorry, a little late on the secrecy angle, but I actually like the way it's been handled. Fighters are very visible, and can be easily spotted (the only exception being the Soviet Union in the 60s and 70s, which could develop fighters within its own vast territory with no Peeping Toms around). The world's known about the F-22 programme for ages, photos etc have been zooming around the internet for aeons.
Subs are meant to be hidden weapons, with hidden abilities. Keep it exaggeratedly concealed but make some noise about it, and imaginations run riot.
Can't you imagine all the watchers going, "Why are they hiding it so carefully? Do they have something we don't?" All psy-ops I think

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 08 Aug 2009 11:08

That India today arihant picture is from a digital camera. The sub was inside the Ship Building Center, where the light was likely poor when the pic was taken. Hence the high noise in the picture. GoI has got the edges cut off on Photoshop (Using the magic wand or magnetic lasso

tool).
The intention clearly was to cut off the VLS section showing the unique missile arrangement. We are not even sure if there are 4 VLS cells or more.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 08 Aug 2009 12:47

"Why are they hiding it so carefully? Do they have something we don't?" All psy-ops I think

Because so much of the performance and payload can be predicted so easily, once the external shape is known. This is what I was pointing out b4. All one needs is an appreciation of Mullah Archimedes - and some graph paper and a calculator.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 08 Aug 2009 12:48

Hamid Gul talks about Arihant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOAeCW38yAI

Surprisingly, a positive news story on India on Chinese CCTV spurred by the launch of Arihant. This is at odds with what their uber nationalists like Global Times are saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QepQECdoq1U

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Aug 2009 12:50

The Arihant is a new class,a hybrid SSBN/SSGN,as there is actually nothing like it in any navy,even though it might be based upon and contain many Russian sub features including the reactor.It has been designed to suit the needs of the country and its strategic deterrent primarily,with a second objective,in that the same design slightly modified ,can also be used as an attack SSGN.When carrying missiles in its VLS silos with a range of only 750+KM,it would be more of an SSGN than an SSBN.However when carrying 3500+KM ICBMs it would be a true SSBN.One would expect later boats of this class to have at least 8-12 missile silos in an enlarged hull along with a more powerful reactor.In fact,given the hull diameter of the sub,I estimate at about 12m,the class can carry a more powerful reactor than what is on the first sub.

Examine its size.It is slightly larger than the British Trafalgar attack SSN's which are just under 6000t dpl ( with a Rolls-Royce PWR1 pressurized water cooled nuclear reactor delivering 15,000 shp for 30 kt max).
It follows the typical Indian philosophy of trying to achieve and validate in one product several objectives,giving it true multi-role capability.This sub design,with a more powerful reactor,can also perform the role of an SSGN.4 US ex-SSBNs are now in service carrying almost 200 Tomahawk missiles each,with even a 55t min-sub for special forces atop the hull developed.Hence putting 12 750+KM missiles into a large silo which is capable of carrying an ICBM.As I said before,we are doing an "OHIO" SSGN in reverse.

From the official and unofficial pics available,one clear detail sticks out,the cladding on the hull.From the pic showing the coconut breaking and the hull in the background of the pic with the PM,the grainy heavy acoustic covering on the sail is visible.In the IT exclusive pic,this is also shown to be covering the hull.It appears to be even thicker/heavier than that on the Kilo,which should make the sub a very quiet one.Scaling the beam dimensions of the sub from the figure of the man atop the hull,the sub's beam appears to be not less than 11m,most likely 12m (40ft.).I guess that the reason why the IT pic was cropped is because we do not want the VLS silo dimensions to be known at this point in time,as it would indicate the diameter of an ICBM that is to be carried by the sub,thus giving a clue to its size and range,as well as the number and diameter of the TTs,which I suspect also have the larger 650mm tubes,capable of launching N-tipped LR cruise missiles of Tomahawk range and the anti-sub Shkval high speed torpedo to defend itself.Israeli Dolphin class SSKs,have N-tipped cruise missiles launched from similar sized tubes.

The Arihant will serve the "National" strategic role and not the IN's. It will be placed under our Nuclear Command structure when operational.The Akula-2+ SSGN to arrive later this year and her future sisters,will serve the IN's operations very well and give us a clear advantage in the IOR over our traditional enemies.What is now needed is for a quick decision on purchasing/building the second AIP sub line,to carry Brahmos,ideally acquire the first 2-3 from Russia within 3 years and build the rest in India (Russia is to build 6 Kilos for Vietnam,all to be delivered within 4-5 years!).We need to counter both Pak and China bewteen 24-30 conventional AIP missile launching subs at the minimum,with 12-16 nuclear subs as well.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 08 Aug 2009 17:07

L&T's new shipyard in Tamil Nadu to bid for defence contracts news

Chennai: Larsen & Toubro is moving ahead with land acquisition in Tamil Nadu to set up a shipbuilding yard, which will take on defence contracts. A senior L&T official said that the project is likely to go on stream in two years.

Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of Suminfra, a summit on sustainable public-private partnerships in infrastructure, JP Nayak, board member and president (machinery and industrial products), L&T, said the company had already shown its capability in the construction of India's first nuclear vessel. Dubbed INS Arihant, the nuclear submarine was launched on 26 July.

Nayak said the land acquisition process for the shipbuilding yard had begun and a project report had also been submitted.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 08 Aug 2009 18:35

Philip wrote:The Arihant is a new class,a hybrid SSBN/SSGN,as there is actually nothing like it in any navy,even though it might be based upon and contain many Russian sub features including the reactor.It has been designed to suit the needs of the country and its strategic deterrent primarily,with a second objective,in that the same design slightly modified ,can also be used as an attack SSGN.When carrying missiles in its VLS silos with a range of only 750+KM,it would be more of an SSGN than an SSBN.However when carrying 3500+KM ICBMs it would be a true SSBN.One would expect later boats of this class to have at least 8-12 missile silos in an enlarged hull along with a more powerful reactor.In fact,given the hull diameter of the sub,I estimate at about 12m,the class can carry a more powerful reactor than what is on the first sub.

Actually Arihant is so comparable to American nuclear attack submarine SSGN Virginia class:

Class and type: Attack submarine
Displacement: 7,900 tonnes (7,800 long tons)
Length: 377 feet (115 m)
Beam: 34 feet (10 m)
Propulsion: S9G reactor
Speed: >25 knots (46 km/h)
Range: unlimited except by food supplies
Test depth: > 800 ft (244 m)
Complement: 134
Armament: 12xVLS (BGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missile) & 4x533mm torpedo tubes (Mk-48 torpedo)

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 08 Aug 2009 20:37

N3ji,
Absolutely... that's clear. But I was going beyond the obvious

hence the "imagine the chinese thinking yada yada"
However, how much do you think we'll be able to hide the new baby once sea trials start? And sorry, a newbie question: what measures would they use to mask/confuse the acoustic signature? Noisemakers? Other subs? Further noise cancelling systems carried by IN ships?
Also... what IR signature reduction do subs, especially diesel-electrics, use to hide when on the surface?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 08 Aug 2009 23:50

N^3 ji I have to disagree in part.

How practical is it to really tell the numbers of torpedoes or missiles carried by a sub moving through the waters or from a photo?
You can probably tell the difference between an empty sub and a half loaded or fully loaded sub. But really is it really possible to account for every tropedo and every missile in the VLS? The Arihant could carry 3 K-xx and without nuclear warheads or just 1 K-xx with 3 nukes.
How is looking at the sub going to tell the enemy that? On a sub which weighs 6000tons whose dimensions at water level would be like 100m x 7m, and the missile weighing 30 tons, how much will each missile account for?

Also please remember that submarines can fill and empty ballast tanks, if the sub's captain is so finicky about surfaced displacement giving off his payload, he could partly compensate for it by fully emptying his ballast tanks.

On the Kilo class subs, the forward ballast tanks have to be emptied fully to bring the front end slightly upwards at an angle to load the torpedoes in from the upper launch tubes. There is reserve buoyancy present on the subs, more so on double hulled ones. Hell, even the USS trenton can do that.

For an enemy, it is probably more simpler to bribe a few dock workers or someone in Nausena office at the sub base for such info. The kilos are loaded in broad daylight, under the "khula aasman".

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 09 Aug 2009 01:50

vardhank wrote:N3ji,
Absolutely... that's clear. But I was going beyond the obvious hence the "imagine the chinese thinking yada yada"
However, how much do you think we'll be able to hide the new baby once sea trials start? And sorry, a newbie question: what measures would they use to mask/confuse the acoustic signature? Noisemakers? Other subs? Further noise cancelling systems carried by IN ships?
Also... what IR signature reduction do subs, especially diesel-electrics, use to hide when on the surface?

It is realitively easy to hide a nuclear submarine in the wide ocean. They will first have to detect the sub, then chase it with warships and airplanes. This is difficult. The crucial question is not hiding it or the speed of it, but how long range missiles it can carry. Ideally IN should be able to hit at 5000 km distance. This will make it possible to hit Chinease targets from far out at sea.

The requirement is for 4 subs. 1 will be at dock, 2 out in position and 1 in in reserve.