LCA news and discussion

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 11 Aug 2009 15:55

Maybe because Aug 15 is around the corner, also as per orkut LSP-4 ( or 3 ) was supposed to be completing initial testing.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Aug 2009 21:36

vina wrote:Hmm. Lot of action sure in the skies over bangalore. In the mornings, I see a Jag doing regular flights. Just some 30 mins or so ago , I think I heard the distinctive noise of YellCeeYea.

Wonder what is going on. No hard news on this front for quite a while now.

Today the skies were thick with Jags - but no LCA spotted (by me)

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 11 Aug 2009 22:53

Something happened during this time, hopefully it was for the good

LCA-Tejas completed the 1148 Test Flights. (28-July-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1147 Test Flights. (02-July-09)

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 12 Aug 2009 06:13

I think mansoon happened!

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 12 Aug 2009 06:17

shiv wrote:
vina wrote:Hmm. Lot of action sure in the skies over bangalore. In the mornings, I see a Jag doing regular flights. Just some 30 mins or so ago , I think I heard the distinctive noise of YellCeeYea.

Wonder what is going on. No hard news on this front for quite a while now.
Today the skies were thick with Jags - but no LCA spotted (by me)

Hmph

I am so sick n tired of of hearing all this plane spotting that I have made a point the next time I visit desh I am going to get a nice long chair, a good pair of bino's a six pack and spend a day at the Doctor's golf course or near the Fat Cat's residence...vengence will be mine!

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 12 Aug 2009 06:19

The chances are you wont see a single plane that day. Murphy's law

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 12 Aug 2009 06:21

^^^^ I knew some smart bum would rever to dear Murphy! You are a 400% cruel person onlee!

I have been reading up on the LCA for a while now even got me hands on ACM Philip's book thanks to the Dark Doctor

and now I demand to see that baby one day in person in its element the blue yonder! and I will god darn it

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 12 Aug 2009 06:26

Waiting for them to arrive at coimbatore.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Aug 2009 06:44

Well I was the happiest person on earth when the civilian airport shifted from HAL to its current location, but I now realise that when civilian airliners were landing and taking off every 15 minutes and brushing past our heads at the 5th and 12 holes that lie bang at the end of the runway there was always hope that the roar you heard was a YellSeeYay or something. Nowadays that runway just sits and shimmers in the sun all day.

Anyhow - I am hoping for some entertainment in the coming weeks as the MRCA candidates appear for testing. But that is OT for this thread.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 12 Aug 2009 09:54

I was lucky back in 2005 to see an green painted (primer) LCA dragged away in a truck from ADA to the Airport. I didnt had a cell phone camera at that time otherwise I would have taken a photo.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Aug 2009 22:08

John Snow wrote:N guru you were ahead of yourself, in those days they did not think much of Green Energy and the contribution of Hydrogen to green economy

But I am glad you did not but most of neigborhood in Hyderbad used H + O2 do welding for window grills, some times rig up a device to generate H by creating a small generater with water and CaCo3...

Glad we both live to see real green economy no

Thats Acetylene gas from calcium carbide and water.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Aug 2009 22:13

negi wrote:Are you sure about Hydrogen Snowji ? I believe it must be standard issue Oxy Acetylene torch ; H2 is expensive to extract and requires a more expensive means to compress in a equally rugged cylinder . And how does one produce H2 from CaCO3 and H2O ?

its like those papers N^3 is talking about. To make sure you know your physics!

Offcourse its acetylene (from Calcium Carbide) but its fun to go try generate H2 from CaCo3 and water!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Aug 2009 22:49

symontk wrote:I was lucky back in 2005 to see an green painted (primer) LCA dragged away in a truck from ADA to the Airport. I didnt had a cell phone camera at that time otherwise I would have taken a photo.

LCA being made of composites, is mostly yellow primered, not green..green indicates aluminium.

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 12 Aug 2009 23:20

Kartik wrote:
symontk wrote:I was lucky back in 2005 to see an green painted (primer) LCA dragged away in a truck from ADA to the Airport. I didnt had a cell phone camera at that time otherwise I would have taken a photo.
LCA being made of composites, is mostly yellow primered, not green..green indicates aluminium.

IIRC the new stealth raptors and Lightening II have green primer (saw photograph somewhere cant recall now). They too are mostly composite made.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 12 Aug 2009 23:36

SKrishna wrote:IIRC the new stealth raptors and Lightening II have green primer (saw photograph somewhere cant recall now). They too are mostly composite made.

The F-22 has yellow primer.

F-22 Assembly

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Aug 2009 23:38

iirc, it wasn't a complete green but greened only on those passive receivers or "sensitive" surfaces or is it reverse?.

!?

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 13 Aug 2009 01:46

SKrishna wrote:
IIRC the new stealth raptors and Lightening II have green primer (saw photograph somewhere cant recall now). They too are mostly composite made.

even the new P8 which india is buying has the green primer(saw couple of pics on vishnu's site)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 724249.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... -h/P-8.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 723195.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 724249.JPG

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 13 Aug 2009 02:24

rajsunder wrote:
SKrishna wrote:
IIRC the new stealth raptors and Lightening II have green primer (saw photograph somewhere cant recall now). They too are mostly composite made.
even the new P8 which india is buying has the green primer(saw couple of pics on vishnu's site)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 724249.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... -h/P-8.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 723195.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 724249.JPG

thats because the P-8 is based on a 737-700 airframe and the 737 is a legacy design, that still has metallic skin and panels. the 787 without paint is a different shade of green, almost like dirty olive mixed with drab brown. aircraft with carbon fiber composites skins are usually yellow (see the Eurofighter as well).

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 13 Aug 2009 02:33

Kartik wrote:
thats because the P-8 is based on a 737-700 airframe and the 737 is a legacy design, that still has metallic skin and panels. the 787 without paint is a different shade of green, almost like dirty olive mixed with drab brown. aircraft with carbon fiber composites skins are usually yellow (see the Eurofighter as well).

http://www.widebodyaircraft.nl/b787prod.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fligh ... 20Line.jpg

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 13 Aug 2009 02:46

rajsunder wrote:
Kartik wrote:
thats because the P-8 is based on a 737-700 airframe and the 737 is a legacy design, that still has metallic skin and panels. the 787 without paint is a different shade of green, almost like dirty olive mixed with drab brown. aircraft with carbon fiber composites skins are usually yellow (see the Eurofighter as well).
http://www.widebodyaircraft.nl/b787prod.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fligh ... 20Line.jpg

I see these every week at the factory..you didn't state whats the point behind the post ?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Aug 2009 07:54

Just finished reading "the Tejas story". Great book. Makes any Indian proud of what is achieved aginst all the odds.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 13 Aug 2009 09:03

Kartik wrote:
symontk wrote:I was lucky back in 2005 to see an green painted (primer) LCA dragged away in a truck from ADA to the Airport. I didnt had a cell phone camera at that time otherwise I would have taken a photo.
LCA being made of composites, is mostly yellow primered, not green..green indicates aluminium.

It was kind of light green but not yellow for sure.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 13 Aug 2009 10:20

Ya.There is a photo of green primer raptor in Airlines.net.Saw it last week.Will try to search and get it..

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 13 Aug 2009 10:47

kvraghav wrote:Ya.There is a photo of green primer raptor in Airlines.net.Saw it last week.Will try to search and get it..

http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Ai ... id=1382037

yossarian · Post by **yossarian** » 13 Aug 2009 14:09

I dont understand how such a prolonged discussion on the primer is contributing to the forum...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Aug 2009 14:20

that's what happens when there is no news.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 13 Aug 2009 22:35

symontk wrote: It was kind of light green but not yellow for sure.

see the images of the LCA at the link below- its yellow primer, not light green.

image link

and to the other guy cribbing about discussions on primer- would you rather that I crib about the work ethic or foolishness of the people working at HAL and ADA, as some members of BRF have been doing with such gusto on this thread ?

or would you rather that I weave the fantasies that are so prevalent on the MRCA thread, where anyone and everyone spouts any random thought that enters their head ?

I actually wanted to raise the point about how much the EF consortium is spending on "parts obsolescence related non-recurring engineering work"- Euro 2.5 billion ! compare that to the LCA program cost, and then you'll get an idea as to why the pace of the LCA program is not blistering. but I'll let that point be.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 13 Aug 2009 22:45

Kartik, I think that GOI would probably spend that kind of money if the IAF & IN wholly support the project. In the past that kind of money would have been impossible. Now, it probably is possible.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 14 Aug 2009 17:04

I don't Know How credible it is but India Tv {Hindi News Channel } flashing that IAF will induct 20 LSP -1 tommorow

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 14 Aug 2009 17:06

How can there be 20 LSP-1? And use the LCA thread to post news related to LCA

in before thread lock

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 14 Aug 2009 17:08

krishnan wrote:How can there be 20 LSP-1? And use the LCA thread to post news related to LCA

in before thread lock

Yeah I am sorry I got it posted as new thread accidentally .. Mods Please Merge it for me .. Will take care from next time ...

@ Krishnan .. I don't know It is TV Journalist Shailesh Kumar who is airing live now at India TV - LIVE

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Aug 2009 17:14

Unless there is somthing which has not been realeased in Public domain, Parsuram, India TV is suffering a case of DDMites

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 14 Aug 2009 17:18

"India TV" ? hahahahhehehehhohoho.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 14 Aug 2009 17:25

Aditya_V wrote:Unless there is somthing which has not been realeased in Public domain, Parsuram, India TV is suffering a case of DDMites

YA I would haven't believed it .. But he claimed this while posing with the aircraft {while stationing himself inside the cockpit }....

sombhat · Post by **sombhat** » 14 Aug 2009 18:00

Yeah right.

parshuram wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Unless there is somthing which has not been realeased in Public domain, Parsuram, India TV is suffering a case of DDMites

YA I would haven't believed it .. But he claimed this while posing with the aircraft {while stationing himself inside the cockpit }....

And the world will come to an end tomorrow due to a blast from the Maha Machine, and Aliens just landed on the editors backyard, and Yeti was spotted in the reporters courtyard. And all these are exclusive stories that have been reported by this channel in the very recent past. (Not kidding here).
Heed my advise. STOP watching this channel in the interest of self-preservation.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Aug 2009 22:51

parshuram wrote:
krishnan wrote:How can there be 20 LSP-1? And use the LCA thread to post news related to LCA

in before thread lock
Yeah I am sorry I got it posted as new thread accidentally .. Mods Please Merge it for me .. Will take care from next time ...

@ Krishnan .. I don't know It is TV Journalist Shailesh Kumar who is airing live now at India TV - LIVE

This is the same channel which ran a story of how aliens were abducting Indian cows

(complete with animations of cows getting sucked up I think). I had screenshots stored somewhere...

Do Not believe anything they say.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 15 Aug 2009 01:28

India TV should be blacklisted - any sort of information coming out from there should be given no credibility whatsoever.

disha · Post by **disha** » 15 Aug 2009 04:58

Kartik wrote:and to the other guy cribbing about discussions on primer- would you rather that I crib about the work ethic or foolishness of the people working at HAL and ADA, as some members of BRF have been doing with such gusto on this thread ?

Plus One. But then R&Dh (Rona & Dhona) is Therapeutic! Thank god the paint is not red-oxide, otherwise imagine the R&Dh (sarcasm).

I actually wanted to raise the point about how much the EF consortium is spending on "parts obsolescence related non-recurring engineering work"- Euro 2.5 billion ! compare that to the LCA program cost, and then you'll get an idea as to why the pace of the LCA program is not blistering. but I'll let that point be.

This was also mentioned by uncle who was working in the LCA, his points

* Spotty Budget process, they would not be able to plan since they were not sure if the budget will come through. Imagine ordering green paint and the budget comes and there is no money for paint. You can cancel the order, but the vendor may be mighty upset and may charge double the next time you do require say paint.

* Lack of prior data. This was very evident when he had to do some calculations on how a particular wing form will perform and there was a change in the wing form design and/or material and he had to recalculate again. Anecdotally, he asked the frenchies on how they handle such changes, and they pulled out their data sheet and extra polated from there and those calculations come within a certain percentage of error margin.

Same goes for GTRE. We should be proud that we have a *jet engine*, even if it can drive only a bullock cart or a buffalo cart. This engines should be put in place every where. In small business jets, or hobby jets or trainee jets or on tanks or on ships etc. That is how progress is made - the first step is always crucial (and tough).

So here are my contributing points (since a particular admin asked that I contribute my ideas, not sure if it really matters)

* GOI should start a regional and national laboratory program, where all the top tier engineering, medical and science colleges are made to affiliate. For eg, let there be Kakatiya regional laboratory and Kalam National laboratory with local and regional college affiliations including IITs. Even second tier colleges are affiliated to regional laboratories

* All projects are charted out by various laboratories. Some are assigned for colleges to complete and some are available for bidding by colleges. This may including fitting a jet engine on a bullock cart and painting the blades in yellow primer. Some may be research projects, some may be implementation and execution problems. All colleges are monitored on how they finish their project and their standing is rated based on their completion. And the colleges are funded based on their standings. Same goes for different laboratories. Some are made to specialize.

* All IP belong to the labs, and they can enter into commercial partnerships to advance their field of research/execution etc and most of that money will go directly in their kitty. Some of money is redistributed.

* Of course over time some labs and colleges acquire more fame and riches than other and they will attract more talent.

* and to keep the IT/VITY guys happy, all data is shared across labs.

So a customer like GTRE, just have to approach the labs and distribute the projects via the lab. It might be as complex as growing epitaxial layers on teflon or as simple as coming up with an optimal filer pattern to smoothen a nut in 3 strokes. All the upfront research will not go waste and can be reused even if GTRE cannot deliver jet engines that can take Arjun to Mach 1. Since the IAF when it bids for engines, a local panwallah may partner with a lab and come up with a plan to deliver and maintain those engines. That panwallah could be a retired IAF officer!

My random thoughts on how to fix the system FWIW rather than a rant on GTRE.

PS: My uncle passed away due to bone cancer, he worked hard in spite of the sickness and he actually was able to work till retirement and was happy and proud to see KH2001 fly. Except that he would not talk much about it other than generics. So when we blame the GTRE, we are blaming those sometimes hardworking souls who could achieve something inspite of the system and the odds stacked against them.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 16 Aug 2009 16:03

Excellent and useful post from disha - shows what u can achieve if u put ur brain to good use for a change.

But like the proverbial shape-memory tail of Indian folklore, the conclusion is all-too-predictably counter-productive:

So when we blame the GTRE, we are blaming those sometimes hardworking souls who could achieve something inspite of the system and the odds stacked against them.

Utterly wrong, disha. Your uncle and many others like him, give/gave their lives to moving forward with total determination despite the blighted buggers of the babucracy and mantricracy. No one here is dissing them. Far from it, you have the answer in front of your eyes: YOUR UNCLE WOULD NOT TALK MUCH ABOUT THE PROBLEMS. Because he was bound by an oath of secrecy. So people like him always reasoned that their Dharma was to do what they could, technically, and simply keep quiet about the obstacles.

YOU and I are not bound by any such secrecy, so why not do something positive using what you clearly know about the true state of affairs?

1. HOW can Indian defense developers get "DATA" if there is no production in good numbers to test systems under actual conditions? Your uncle is not the only expert to have recognized this fundamental obstacle.

2. WHY is it that 65 years after Independence, there is no systematic process for doing defense system development, where there are good middle-tier organizations that can parcel out the needed work to the academic institutions, AND GET RESULTS, without having to get security clearances for everyone? Even today, if a desi professor wants to work on stuff related to problems that the Defense ppl need solved, there is no standard process for communicating the needs, let alone making sure that relevant results get transferred back. Instead everyone runs around pretending to be an expert on Whether India Should Buy the F-18 or The Sopwith Camel.

Check into the true situation - not a few anecdotes of exception - and see what is the process for a PROBLEM to be communicated to those who can solve it, rather than cover it up until the relevant Babus retire. Why is there so little articulation of this in the Indian strategic analysis community?

3. GTRE, NAL, ADA, HAL etc. are nationally-mandated organizations to do specific things. The taxpayer cannot go and ask why the Handicrafts industry is not developing gas turbine engines - there is a GTRE that pretends to be doing this. So WHY is it not right to ask why GTRE has been such an abysmal failure for all these decades?

I note that Maruti Suzuki and Mahindra build cars/ SUVs that compete fairly well against Honda and Chevrolet in the Indian market, hey? They seem to be moving along a lot quicker than Hindustan Motors was doing with the Ambassador. Why is GTRE then still trying to impress us by failing to develop a 1975 jet engine in 2009? Why should Indians not demand some answers for this? Why is the response to such questions no brighter than this guilt-complex thing as in your post?

Indian Babus cannot be allowed to hide behind this Patriotism cra* when all they are doing is ripping off the nation and blocking key executive positions with their musharrafs. Those who know the problems, should feel emboldened to speak out.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 16 Aug 2009 18:28

narayanan wrote:Why the Handicrafts industry is not developing gas turbine engines - there is a GTRE that pretends to be doing this. So WHY is it not right to ask why GTRE has been such an abysmal failure for all these decades?

I note that Maruti Suzuki and Mahindra build cars/ SUVs that compete fairly well against Honda and Chevrolet in the Indian market, hey? They seem to be moving along a lot quicker than Hindustan Motors was doing with the Ambassador. Why is GTRE then still trying to impress us by failing to develop a 1975 jet engine in 2009? Why should Indians not demand some answers for this? Why is the response to such questions no brighter than this guilt-complex thing as in your post?

Indian Babus cannot be allowed to hide behind this Patriotism cra* when all they are doing is ripping off the nation and blocking key executive positions with their musharrafs. Those who know the problems, should feel emboldened to speak out.

GTRE can build some engine with some thrust. But asking it to compete with the likes of GE or Snecma or Honeywell doesn't seem fair. It is like asking why Infosys despite decades of experience in IT not able to compete with Cisco in networking or Oracle in DB or Intel in microprocessor or Apple/Microsoft in Operating Systems. If it were so easy to replicate cutting edge technology why will folks buy engine from GE, some Chinese company will already be building it cheaper. Also I wouldn't depend on govt department to develop cutting edge technology. If you want cutting edge you need to pay engineers the market rate...cannot do that in govt.