Indian Roads Thread

[Katare]

drove to salem over the weekend NH7. very well maintained and clean road with lots of US style overpasses on village roads compared to direct merges as on the blr-mysore road. the median had miles and miles of flowers and the
road cleaning is probably given to villagers enroute...did not see ANY trash on the road.

in small car, 100kmph was easy. sedans were doing 120+. these are sustained
speeds over periods of hours, not burst speeds.

for a distance of 230km the tolls came to 150/- approx.

Impressive!

[BijuShet]

drove to salem over the weekend NH7. very well maintained and clean road with lots of US style overpasses on village roads compared to direct merges as on the blr-mysore road. the median had miles and miles of flowers and the
road cleaning is probably given to villagers enroute...did not see ANY trash on the road.

in small car, 100kmph was easy. sedans were doing 120+. these are sustained
speeds over periods of hours, not burst speeds.

for a distance of 230km the tolls came to 150/- approx.

Singhasaar can you comment on the usual yatri facilities along these roads? Do they have decent toilets, food joints, gas station and emergency auto and medical facilities. I want to get a better picture of how Babus are thinking of developing road infrastructure. BTW are these roads, access controlled or can a village auto get on these roads by jumping a median divider? TIA for your replies.

[Suraj]

On SSC India, a few pics of the Salem-Krishnagiri stretch were posted recently:
pic1
pic2
pic3
The thread on the subject on that forum is:
India Highways Thread ( Photos only )

[SwamyG]

With the change in the contractor for garbage clearance (from Onyx to Neel Metal Fanalca), the city has simply become dirtier. The new guys simply have no clue and are cutting corners everywhere. Many protests have simply not moved the officials to correct the situation.

Unfortunately, for me, I found Madras to be quiet dirty. It is just getting dirtier.

I travelled to Madras from Bangalore via road. I have a question to the gurus. Though parts of the highways had 3x3 lanes; for the most parts it was only 2x2 lanes. The left most being the slowest because of two-wheelers & bicyclists. Faster vehicles in order to overtake them - pass them on the right there by slowing down the faster vehicles on the right lane. This was increasing the travel time. Why are the planners not getting a 4x4 lanes road? When I asked this question in my family circles they talk about the inability to acquire land and raising costs. What do the gurus feel? 2x2 roads are inadequate IMO.

[Suraj]

4x4 lanes are not the answer. I posted about this in the past over a year back in this thread -

Also, just the organization of the roads bears some second thought. We cannot have the standard western 2x2 highways, because of the number of two and three wheelers, powered or otherwise, that intrude. The key to smooth traffic is not more lanes, but effective separation of velocities, i.e. fast traffic having unimpeded flow, slow traffic getting their own lane. Also, basics like exit ramps and turn lanes are still not standardized. Sridhar had several interesting posts on the subject in the past, and the gist appears to be that while such standards are stated by the nodal roads body, they are not always implemented during road construction.

What matters is not additional lanes but separation of traffic by velocity. Strictly speaking, the main (2x2 or at most 3x3) corridor should be restricted to general automobile traffic - cars, lorries, buses, and two-wheelers. Everything else really ought to be restricted to slip/service roads.

[SwamyG]

By demanding/adding lanes does not mean all vehicles will ply them evenly. I actually agree on the separation of lanes by velocity of the vehicles. I was thinking along similar lines, I don't mind the exta lanes being called service lane or whatever. In some sections, that had 3x3 lanes I did see grids separating out the service lanes with the fast highway lanes. I don't expect the standard Western driving conditions, in the Indian conditions in order to carry more population across cities, we need more wider roads with more number of lanes.

2x2 is not adequate at all - for even any velocity separation. I saw overloaded trucks struggling to make certain gradients. My brother observed that truck drivers pick a lane and stick to them - without much weaving. And if they are going slower than the "modern" cars and private buses passing them will eat up a lane. So one would need at the minimum of one more lane on each side.

I would say one lane for the two wheelers, one for the slow moving vehicles and one for faster ones. If there is land then one for passing/backup. The flying time between Bangalore and Madras is just 45mins or so, but it takes about 2.5 to 3 hours to drive to and fro airport + 45-60mins of time at the airport. That is almost 5 hours if one takes a flight. People drive in between the above cities in about 6.5 hours or so.

We might call the lanes differently, but we need more lanes.

[Suraj]

Slow overloaded trucks are not an argument for more lanes, but for effective enforcement of rules against overloading trucks. They are not ok even on a 3x3 lane highway. Most rural sections of the US interstates are 2x2 . My argument is merely that additional lanes are not an effective means to separate traffic with vastly different velocities.

As far as buses and trucks go, there has been a continuous trend towards higher powered vehicles, as our intercity roads develop. They currently lag the road capability (which isn't so bad - it means we're building roads faster than commercial vehicle technology can keep up), but there's an increasing trend towards vehicle with enough grunt - like those Volvo buses and trucks, as well as products from Tata and AL. It will take time, but on the plus side, it is a demand multiplier for activity in the CV sector.

However, things like bicycles, mopeds and tractors will never run as fast as cars or trucks, and should never be on the highway, no matter if it is the left-most lane of a 4x4 road. A separate service/slip road is the best place for such traffic. For most long unoccupied stretches, the main right of way doesn't have to exceed 2x2, with wider sections being mostly around approaches to inhabited regions.

[ramana]

SwamyG, I went to and fro from B'lore to Madras in 1999 and it was quite pleasant in those days. It must be even better now. I recall there were roadside stalls selling pottery. OTH the old road from B'lore to Mysore was hell in those days.

[Chellaram]

On SSC India, a few pics of the Salem-Krishnagiri stretch were posted recently:
pic1
pic2
pic3
The thread on the subject on that forum is:
India Highways Thread ( Photos only )

from what i see in those pics (and in others on the SSC forums), the road infrastructure in india is a lot better than the impression given by many of the articles that i've read in the press here in the US

i was just checking out this thread (link) where the guy travels from chennai to manali and back, and most of the roads that he traveled are quite amazing

[Raja Bose]

On SSC India, a few pics of the Salem-Krishnagiri stretch were posted recently:
pic1

^^^Very nice! But do I see a large vehicle using the lane marker to center itself on the road?

[Dileep]

On SSC India, a few pics of the Salem-Krishnagiri stretch were posted recently:
pic1

^^^Very nice! But do I see a large vehicle using the lane marker to center itself on the road?

Most of the drivers Actually believes that!!

I used to complain about bad lane discipline till last Xmas. That is when I visited my bro in Bengaluru.

We were driving on the ORR, 6 lanes, and no one, including my bro, was in the lane. I asked him how he drove in the USA/Oirope when he visits there. He told me that he observed lane discipline only abroad.

I stopped complaining right then, and moved to the "we are like this onlee" position.

[Javee]

Toll collection begins on Karur–Namakkal stretch
L. Renganathan

KARUR: With the commencement of toll collection from road users traversing the Karur-Namakkal stretch of National Highway 7 on the night of Monday, motoring evolved into a new phase in Karur district.

In the backdrop of the dark midnight sky lit up by the pyrotechnics, sirens blared and there was a lot of handshake all round as Namakkal Karur Toll Road Limited, a special purpose vehicle of the Reliance Group which had bagged the concessionaire ticket, for manning the stretch under the BOT scheme, initiated collection of toll at Kasampalayam toll plaza in Namakkal district _ albeit on behalf of the National Highways Authority of India (NHAI).

Remarkable features dot the Namakkal-Karur highway stretch, perhaps the first for the region apart from toll collection.

The whole stretch for a length of 41.3 km is four-laned and that includes the 3.8 km long Velur bypass. Two new major bridges across River Cauvery and River Thirumanimutharu besides five minor bridges four flyovers, two vehicular underpasses and five pedestrian underpasses add to the comfort of the road users.

Enhanced facilities include Variable Message Signboards at an interval of 10 kilometre, two meteorological data stations that allow the motorist to know the temperature, wind velocity, humidity, etc., two automatic traffic counter and classifiers, 22 pairs of emergency call boxes (one each on either side), 13 CCTVs including two at the toll plaza and 11 others at important stretches add to the glitter, making the highway stretch a virtual security zone.

http://www.hindu.com/2009/08/26/stories ... 730700.htm

Some pics are here,
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=24880270

------------------------------------------
I'll take some more pictures of the roads when I go there this Nov.

Damn it, Reliance has done a wonderful job, kudos.
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9596 ... arpall.jpg
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1491/v ... layam1.jpg

[SwamyG]

Enforcing rules against overloading trucks is a separate issue. Solutions have to be for Indian conditions. And in Indian conditions these are facts of life. One can not compare US conditions to Indian conditions. The number of two-wheelers and variety of vehicles is nothing compared to the Indian conditions.

My point is for the Indian conditions - high traffic owing to large population size - we need more lanes than a simple 2x2. With India slated for more growth, the traffic is only going to increase. We will not be able to convert all village tractors or vehicles used in small towns and villages to the vehicles that are good for highway driving. Unlike USA, we are going to have vehicles with different velocities. And how are you going to separate them with just 2x2? It is impossible to have a reasonable solution with 2x2

The roads are good. My only lament is for more lanes - that will allow us the physical separation. Highways can not just intrude into towns and villages without means for the people to lead their daily lives. It is easy for us to decide no mopeds or slower vehicles. This is India we are talking about, and growth has to be inclusive. We can not build roads for just the ITvity folks driving from Blr to Mds. What are we going to say a farmer who wants to take his wife to the next willage in his bike? Tell him sorry?

The only way to get uninterrupted fast driving conditions is by means of flyovers - because even in the highways people cross the road suddenly without any indication. To me it appeared that the guy is just standing on the road and something seems to suddenly give him the urge to cross the road seconds before the vehicle is on the spot.
I will try to upload some pictures.

Don't get me wrong, the roads are good - especially the roads from Tamil Nadu border and around the Krishnagiri areas.

The planning bug seems to affect even within the city. Be it Hyderabad or Madras even the new roads seem to be adequate for just the current conditions. There are already folks ready to use whatever road that is build for them - a sign for vast prosperity (which is good). But these roads will become choked in a matter of time as more people become rich and mobile.

My brother uses the lane marker as an anchor and sticks to it. He moves into a lane only when he has to overtake. He says this is the safest way to drive.

[SwamyG]

Bangalore Madras Road near Krishnagiri area.

[Singha]

Singhasaar can you comment on the usual yatri facilities along these roads? Do they have decent toilets, food joints, gas station and emergency auto and medical facilities

just near krishnagiri there are couple of huge immaculate gas stations and restaurants.
reliance has exited the petrol retail biz and their stations and attached food plazas were
closed. between krishnagiri and salem (100km) there was no integrated plaza infact hardly any big village even...all strangely empty and whisper smooth. however the toll
booths were very chi chi with split A/C to each cabin and operators wearing yellow shirts
and ties.

there were some solar power phone boxes and signs indicating ambulance nos.

toilets were we went in krishnagiri plaza were spick n span. the apron areas of these
stations are like a USAF airbase - very big to accomodate 'surge deployments'

[BijuShet]

Singhasaar can you comment on the usual yatri facilities along these roads? Do they have decent toilets, food joints, gas station and emergency auto and medical facilities

just near krishnagiri there are couple of huge immaculate gas stations and restaurants.
reliance has exited the petrol retail biz and their stations and attached food plazas were
closed. between krishnagiri and salem (100km) there was no integrated plaza infact hardly any big village even...all strangely empty and whisper smooth. however the toll
booths were very chi chi with split A/C to each cabin and operators wearing yellow shirts
and ties.

there were some solar power phone boxes and signs indicating ambulance nos.

toilets were we went in krishnagiri plaza were spick n span. the apron areas of these
stations are like a USAF airbase - very big to accomodate 'surge deployments'

Thank you saar for the update. My worry is 100 km in the Indian context could mean 1.5 hours of driving time. There should be atleast 2 eatery & Toilet facilities in that 100 km stretch i.e. one every 30-50 kms. Ambulance services and Towing/garage service every 20 kms should cover most people's needs. I hope the Baniya gene in the Babus kicks in and they deploy these services more readily. It will make the journey good for all and give more people a means to livelyhood. BTW did the Reliance Gas Station close for good or did they sell their business ?

[SwamyG]

Biju: You touch upon a good point - liveyhood. I was happy/amazed with the jobs the recent boom/development have caused just in the "car driver" and "cab" segment alone. Different cities and cab companies have come up with different business model. Meru Cabs is one of the companies operating in four cities. Their drivers need to give Rs900 per day to the company, the drivers pay the deisel and pocket the rest of the money. The cab driver I talked was very happy with the flexibility it offered. He did not like being a Full Time Paid Car Driver with someone. Whereas a cab driver in Madras was being paid a salary of Rs8,000 per month. He was happy with this arrangement. He felt Madras had better public transport - buses and trains than Bangalore and he thought this was better income generation way for the city or atleast him. These days we can hire just a car driver for Rs150-180 for 4 hours. So if you have a car and want to do some shopping then this is the best option, as he can drop off us and park the car anywhere in the vicinity. After our work is done, we just have to call (or give a missed call) on his cell. He will pick us up at the shop. A good Indic solution for parking and commuting issues inside the cities. Tidel Park in Madras was offering Rs22,000 per month for 8 hours during the nights. The cab companies sends the car to the facilities at 10:00pm and they hang around till 6:00am. The companies use the cabs to drop off people.

All these have caused more cars to move on our roads.

[Singha]

saw some outsize trailer trucks each carrying one blade of windmills to the south somewhere. the blades are gigantic, as long as a small ship.

[Gagan]

There is a huge wind farm at Aralvaimozhi, in the southern tip of India around Cape comorin. India is supposed to have the 4th largest capacity for wind farms.

[Suraj]

SwamyG: we both agree that an Indianised solution to the situation, not a cut and paste western one. The only bone of contention is what constitutes the solution. From my perspective, additional lanes do not constitute effective separation of traffic with radically different velocities. You misunderstand my earlier post - I stated that lower speed traffic should *not* be permitted on the main 2x2 highway, but should be provided a parallel slip road. If I were riding a bicycle or moped, I would much rather not ride on a road where cars are going past at 120 km/h, even if they were 2-3 lanes away. The reason why it happens is that there isn't a parallel expressway alignment for such faster traffic, or extensive service roads running parallel to the current NHDP highways.

Even the NHAI's policy with newer NHDP phases has been to define parallel alignments of dedicated expressways rather than to widen the current mostly 4-laned NH network, so that the former becomes analogous to US interstates and the latter more like the US highway system, which isn't an access controlled expressway. A lot of the current NH alignment does not enable translation to access controlled expressways, since they run through the centres of towns and cities where land acquisition for widening and ramp construction is difficult.

[SwamyG]

Hyderabad is coming up with Outer Ring Road (ORR) and other express ways. They are still under construction. I saw road signs that say that only certain type of vehicles can ply on them. I think two-wheelers were not going to be allowed on them. I find it interesting for Indian conditions. Is the message that we care only for people who can afford to own or rent a car that can go faster from one place to another? Why not build roads just for mobikes then? Phasing out mopeds or mobikes is going to be literally impossible.

[Singha]

mobikes and mopeds have learnt the hard way to ride carefully along
the very edge of the 2x2 highways esp when highway is empty, to
be safe from 4 wheelers going past at high speed.

[Abhijeet]

Here are several problems with the "IT highway" (OMR) in Chennai. This is the road along which many tech companies have set up offices in the last couple of years, and was, I gather, a showpiece development for the city. It extends from Adyar in south Chennai to Mahabalipuram.

The road itself is 3x3 lanes for probably at least the first 20 kms (the furthest along it I've driven). The quality of the supporting infrastructure, however, varies wildly along its length.

For the first 4 km or so there are service lanes that allow relatively smooth in- and out-merges, and sidewalks for pedestrians. Beyond that the design itself is so poor that there is no way that high speeds can be achieved.

- There is no shoulder, let alone sidewalks, along the rest of the road.
- There are no dedicated turn lanes at intersections, so traffic turning right blocks a whole lane of traffic.
- Pedestrians take up one additional lane almost the entire way, since the whole stretch is a heavily populated semi-rural area with several villages along the way.
- Buses stop right on the road since there are no bus shelters or dedicated stop lanes, so that's one more lane gone periodically.
- The breaks in the median for taking U-turns are spaced so far apart that most autorickshaws and even trucks drive long distances against the flow of traffic, taking up yet another lane (I think at this point there are about -1 lanes left for traffic actually traveling in the right direction at a reasonable speed).
- Pedestrian overpasses are so infrequent that there is pretty much a constant stream of people rushing across the road trying to avoid cars driving at 60 kmph.

Basically, plonking a 3x3 road in the middle of a densely populated area, with no attempt to accomodate the existing users of the older road, is a waste of money. Until the design takes the most common use cases into account - and this is generally not the case - we will be wasting money on poorly utilized infrastructure (such as one lane of a road capable of carrying high-speed vehicles, now used for pedestrian traffic).

[Singha]

There are no dedicated turn lanes at intersections, so traffic turning right blocks a whole lane of traffic.

this is a uniquely pan-indian failing. also absense of bus bays at stops
even on new roads. buses invariably block one lane.

[Abhijeet]

Slip roads or service roads are not a solution for long distance travel of slower traffic, which is common road usage in India. Even in the US, it's generally not possible to travel inter-city on a bicycle, for example (since bicycles are not allowed on freeways). Service roads are for short distance local traffic, not long distance slow traffic.

One possible solution is to have two parallel highways, one access controlled for high speed vehicles and another for everything else. This is actually the case between Bombay and Pune, where the expressway takes high speed traffic and the old, non-access-controlled NH4 takes slower traffic. But building highways without access controls (enforced strictly) is a losing proposition in India since it is pretty much guaranteed that the high speed lanes will not be used optimally. See OMR post above.

[SwamyG]

I heard there is a proposal for Blr-Mds expressway. People are hoping to go boundary-to-boundary in 2hr45mns. It is not going via Hosur. That place is a mockery of a spot. The private buses all are parked just on the lanes. Another problem specific to India, apart from planning, is the enforcement of rules. Both in Hyderabad and Bangalore, near the airports I saw cabs parked on the roads for quite a distance. They did not see it fruitful to drive out of the airport range. So they were squatting off the road - a practice that has to be nipped in the bud. Maybe they need reasonably priced parking lots just off the airport for such needs. A good thing about these airports are that they have plenty of such spots for parking lots as well as roads.

To avoid pedestrians crossing the highways, the only solution is an elevated express way - barricades will keep only vehicles away; even saree clad women folks will jump the barricades. But the elevated expressway will increase the project costs to a high price.

[John Snow]

Mumbai WR side was automated signalling was designed ans executed by Seimens India, IIRC its called track circuit system.
Completely automated for 2 min interval arrivals at peak...

Later CR Pune to Mumbai VT was also done ...

[Suraj]

Abhijeet: I agree that slip roads are not an effective long distance travel solution. Ideally, there would be two corridors - the high speed access-controlled expressway one, which need not exceed 2x2 for most part, and the non-access controlled highway that runs through towns and cities, providing easy access for slower traffic. However, in the absence of that, some sort of slip road is better than putting much slower traffic on the current highways together with fast traffic.

Very basic road traffic management ideas seem to be ignored during the construction of city roads and highway, including the lack of exit lanes for buses, acceleration/deceleration lanes, and assorted matters. Sridhar posted about this some years ago - the Indian Roads Congress standard does mandate all these, but they have no power of enforcement. To be fair, some of the newer highways whose pictures I've seen on SSC do have on/off ramps, and even recessed bus bays so that a lane of traffic doesn't get blocked by a stopped bus.

One more thing that's increasingly the case is that our intercity roads are in far better shape than intra-city roads. In pretty much every significant city, not only is there a need to improve road conditions, but also to essentially rethink their organization properly, keeping in mind the need to address pedestrian movement, two wheeler traffic, intersection/interchange design to accomodate smooth traffic, the works. This isn't a symptom of poverty as much as of (probably) apathy. One last thing - the accumulation of dirt on the roadsides. They aren't just an aesthetic issue, but a safety concern if you're on a twowheeler.

[hnair]

There is a huge wind farm at Aralvaimozhi, in the southern tip of India around Cape comorin. India is supposed to have the 4th largest capacity for wind farms.

yeah, Aralvaimozhi (Muppandal) around which all this is happening. It is a little after Tirunelveli town down NH7. Even in the early 90s, the hundreds of wind turbines were a majestic sight. Mahendragiri is closeby.

[Yogi_G]

Abhijeet, at the end of the day, with all the shortcomings you mentioned the most depressing thing is handing out the 30 Rupees toll, my wife curses the highway authorities all day, I get to learn new curse words in Telugu that way.

[Javee]

There is a huge wind farm at Aralvaimozhi, in the southern tip of India around Cape comorin. India is supposed to have the 4th largest capacity for wind farms.

Giant windfarms are coming up near Coimbatore-Palghat area. Aralvaimozhi is almost saturated.

[Katare]

This should entice major global and Indian companies to compete for these projects. This kinda size should also attract foreign capital flow in road construction.

Govt to invite bids for 3 mega road projects by year-end

[Suraj]

NHAI's national expressway network details. This will be a fully access controlled intercity expressway network, and is in addition to all the smaller existing or planned intracity and other expressways and NHAI highway projects. A specialized expressway authority, NEAI, has been created to oversee this project.
NHAI's Indian National Expressway Network Plan
Cost: Rs.2,50,000 crore ($52 billion)
Coverage: 17,661kms
Usage: tolled
Phases: 3
Completion:
Phase 1: 2012
Phase 2: 2017
Phase 3: 2022

[Singha]

Aralvaimozhi near kanyakumari is said to be largest wind farm in asia with 450MW. yet I am unable to
locate a single high quality panorama of the place.

we are like this only.

[KarthikSan]

Aralvaimozhi near kanyakumari is said to be largest wind farm in asia with 450MW. yet I am unable to
locate a single high quality panorama of the place.

we are like this only.

Will this do? I'm posting only the link due to copyright issues.

Aralvaimozhi Windmills

There are a gazillion more good pics. Just do a google image search for "Aralvaimozhi".

Edit: Link fixed.

[Singha]

well ! the first page that come up in goog images is hardly TongChi/Skyscrapercity standard ...

[SSridhar]

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_sau1PDET7Vg/SUQKc ... C_2820.jpg

KarthikSan, can you fix the URL please ?

[SwamyG]

Abhijeet, at the end of the day, with all the shortcomings you mentioned the most depressing thing is handing out the 30 Rupees toll, my wife curses the highway authorities all day, I get to learn new curse words in Telugu that way.

Why is that? We were happy to pay the toll money. The roads were darn good but for the problems I mentioned - which is really a planning issue than maintenance one. Right from Hosur to Madras outskirts there was not one blemish on the road. I was impressed with the median and the bogan-villa plants. I saw personnel trimming them. The Bangalore-Hosur was really bad - but that I blame on the ongoing construction.

[SwamyG]

There are a gazillion more good pics. Just do a google image search for "Aralvaimozhi".

Yikesssssssss. I just googled and looked at the pics - the windmills dot the entire landscape. I guess tourism is not possible in that place any more - the windmills are such an eyesore now. Kooch paane ke liye kooch kona padtha hain.

[SSridhar]

The Bangalore-Hosur was really bad - but that I blame on the ongoing construction.

Swamy, I have not recently travelled by road to Bangalore from Chennai. But, I used to take the Anekal-Sarjapur road to avoid the congestion.