Indian Naval Discussion

maz · Post by **maz** » 25 Aug 2009 01:54

m mittal wrote:This message is intended for Mr Mrityunjoy Mazumdar. I was editing few of the Wikipedia pages and I intend to use his pics and I would like to seek his permission before I use them. Mr Mazumdar if you read this kindly reply.

Thanks

Mr Mittal

Thank you for asking. Feel free to use my pictures. May I request you to contact me via pm to preview the wikipaedia changes.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 25 Aug 2009 14:38

Are you above the law? Mumbai High Court asks Indian Navy.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Aug 2009 14:45

Dmurphy wrote:Are you above the law? Mumbai High Court asks Indian Navy.

Emm .... no charge sheet filed , no rules followed , stripped of their ranks .
These must have committed a very serious unpardonable offense , like teasing the Admiral's daughter.

manish · Post by **manish** » 25 Aug 2009 15:50

Singha wrote:SL has never expressed a intent to lease out port facilities to PLAN base. the chinese are funding that port but doesnt mean SL will let them post naval ships there. Gwader is a different matter as Pak is 'owned' by PRC.
the port mgmt would probably be in chinese company hands and they will post a few spies there, but other than this wouldnt it be just any other managed port like dubai port trust manages several ports worldwide.

SL certainly recognizes that ruffling India's feathers won't help them. 65-70% of Colombo's traffic is nothing but Indian transshipment cargo. GoI is already planning to throw a spanner in their works by building Vizhinjam and Vallarpadam transshipment terminals. Vizhinjam esp is going to be a major threat to them, what with a planned final capacity of 6.5m TEUs/yr - this is nearly twice the amount that Colombo handled last year.

Here's an interesting article that was published last March on the same issue in SL press:
Aitken Spence port bid in our national interest

Hutchison, which operates a dozen port terminals in China, is widely believed to have close ties to the Chinese government. It is a known fact that it has been prevented from bidding for Indian home ports by the government of India, due to strategic security concerns.

Seventy percent of the volumes handled in the port of Colombo are transhipments, of which ninety percent is from India.

Obviously, India as a government would not be happy to see their containers moving through a port which is owned or managed by a Chinese port operator. The booming Indian economy offers tremendous potential for Colombo to attract greater levels of transhipment traffic. Neither the delay in the development of the South Port nor highly questionable attempts to promote the Hong Kong-based bidder would help Colombo.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Aug 2009 19:31

Aitken Spence is one of Lanka's best run blue-chip companies and should be given the deal.I know the company well.The GOSL if it brings in Hutchinson will provoke a strong backlash from India.

Meanwhile Pak is trying to cosy up to Malaysia,as Malaysia ia also acquiring Scorpene subs like India from France,far more sophisticated than its Agosta 90Bs.Pak wants a "dekko" at the sub.

Pakistan To Enhance Naval Relations With Malaysia

KUALA LUMPUR, Aug 25 (Bernama) -- Klang Valley folks who are interested in war ships will have the opportunity to experience it when Pakistan's newly acquired state-of-the art missile frigate makes a stop-over at Port Klang on Thursday.

Pakistan High Commissioner to Malaysia Lt. General (Rtd) Tahir Mahmud Qazi said the PNS Zulfiquar, Pakistan's first F-22 frigate, would anchor at Port Klang for four days from Thursday before continuing its journey home.

He said the war ship was constructed for the Pakistan Navy at the Hudong Zhonghua Shipyard in Shanghai and formally handed over to the Pakistan government on July 30, while the other three ships were at different stages of construction.

"The stopover in Port Klang is a goodwill mission reflecting greater cooperation between the navies of Malaysia and Pakistan," he said in a statement.

Tahir Qazi said the F-22P frigate was equipped with state-of-the-art weaponry and sensors including anti-surface missile, surface-to-air missile, guns, torpedoes, depth charge and air surveillance radar.

He said while berthed, a media briefing would be held on board on Thursday and the ship would also be open for public visits, besides an arranged visit by Royal Malaysian Navy officers.

Tahir Qazi said this was the second visit by Pakistan's naval vessels to Malaysia this year.

Earlier this year, two Pakistan naval ships, PNS Nasr and PNS Badr with embarked helicopters, anchored at Port Klang from April 4 to 7 on a goodwill mission to Malaysia and carried out joint passage excercise.

-- BERNAMA

arun · Post by **arun** » 25 Aug 2009 21:23

Navy grounds Sea Harrier fighter jet fleet

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 26 Aug 2009 01:12

With the grounding of the 10 Sea Harrier jump jets, INS Viraat, which got afloat at the Cochin Shipyard's dry dock after a 18-month refit a fortnight ago, may have to sail to Gulf of Aden next month without its fighter jets.

An aircraft carrier sailing without its aircrafts? This is preposterous!

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Aug 2009 01:50

Are any Royal Navy Harriers available?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Aug 2009 02:04

may have to sail to Gulf of Aden next month without its fighter jets.

Not a done deal as yet.

The ship should have a bunch of helos - for what that is worth.

Besides, it is 10 SHs. Or is that 9 now?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 Aug 2009 04:07

Austin wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:Are you above the law? Mumbai High Court asks Indian Navy.
Emm .... no charge sheet filed , no rules followed , stripped of their ranks .
These must have committed a very serious unpardonable offense , like teasing the Admiral's daughter.

And these 2 are not any run-of-the-mill sailors, these fellows were in for MARCOS training - wonder if the secrecy has anything to do with that. Local chai wallah is not commenting.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Aug 2009 06:50

I think the remainder is 8 sea harriers. Viraat could be better put to use
mainly as a ASW carrier carrying a big complement of Sea King and NH90 helis which we should obtain asap for other ships too - to replace the sea king.

there's also 3 trainers.

plane that went down had been upged with 2032 radar and derby missile.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Aug 2009 08:40

Raja Bose wrote:And these 2 are not any run-of-the-mill sailors, these fellows were in for MARCOS training - wonder if the secrecy has anything to do with that. Local chai wallah is not commenting.

Well if these 2 MARCOS have secretly teased the Admiral's daughter , then there is a provision of in-camera trial , the IN is certainly not above the law of the country as the judge rightly said it.

kit · Post by **kit** » 26 Aug 2009 09:06

Viraat can operate as a missile cruiser and a helicopter carrier for some time .. can mig 29 or the F18 operate from Viraat ?

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 26 Aug 2009 09:11

maz wrote:
m mittal wrote:This message is intended for Mr Mrityunjoy Mazumdar. I was editing few of the Wikipedia pages and I intend to use his pics and I would like to seek his permission before I use them. Mr Mazumdar if you read this kindly reply.

Thanks
Mr Mittal

Thank you for asking. Feel free to use my pictures. May I request you to contact me via pm to preview the wikipaedia changes.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Aug 2009 09:23

Austin wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:Are you above the law? Mumbai High Court asks Indian Navy.
Emm .... no charge sheet filed , no rules followed , stripped of their ranks .
These must have committed a very serius unpardonable offense , like teasing the Admiral's daughter.

From my personal experience in most of such cases the additional charges like absence from duty', 'insubordination' etc etc.. are falsified the real reason most of the times is a personal fight with a superior or officer in charge.

IN,IA or even IAF cantonment areas and even bases are a mini society where virtually everyone knows each other ;people come to know about such incidents the moment they take place because after all the naval police personnel too live in the same base along with their families.

And hence there is simply no chance of any eave teasing ..leave alone Admiral's daughter (btw Admiral and his family should be in Dilli).

The life in services is very unforgiving while it takes 2-3 decades of exemplary service to get a commendation from CNS a mere slip up on duty,untidy uniform ,or a heated argument with a senior can adversely affect one's promotion cycle .

I have seen people being court-martialed (ostensibly for insubordination, absence from duty ) for merely picking up a fight with a superior that too in a market outside the base when none of the involved parties was in uniform or on duty.

ChandraS · Post by **ChandraS** » 26 Aug 2009 10:05

Well, there is a charge of striking a superior officer. This could be the main reason like negi said. Other charges might have been added to buttress the case. The way IN handled this case leaves a lot to be desired. Let's see if the HC order sheds any light on this issue.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 26 Aug 2009 16:35

As per this article Brazil has concluded purchase of 4 scorpene subs to be fitted with the indigenously developed nuclear propulsion plant. The reactor would have to be really compact to fit in the hull of Scorpene. Beam should be approx.7.5 mts. Brazilian R&D must be highly advanced if they have actually produced such a reactor. Could it be that India have similar plan and hence not ordered MESMA?

Could it be that as rumoured they might actually be buying Barracuda Hull.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/ ... 90826.aspx

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Aug 2009 17:53

dinesha wrote: Brazilian R&D must be highly advanced if they have actually produced such a reactor.

Their centrifuge enrichment and propulsion programs are run by the Navy itself.

http://www.mar.mil.br/ctmsp/

Brazilian nuclear submarine reactor scheduled by 2014

The Aramar Experimental Center (CEA) located in Iperó, belonging to the Navy of Brazil, will generate 400 new vacancies in engineering in order to continue with the project for the fist Brazilian nuclear submarine reactor prototype, know as Labgene, said the Cruzeiro do Sul journal.

The reactor under development will have a power of around 11 electric megawatts (MWe), enough to illuminate a city of, approximately, 20 thousand residents.

Among others activities, the Aramar Center, in charge for the implementation of Labgene, is enriching uranium in a laboratory-scale since the ‘80 to meet the needs of the Navy Nuclear Program.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Aug 2009 18:03

Brazil have been working on a N-reactor for decades.It was only paucity of funds and lack of threats that made them shelve their efforts.

jahaju · Post by **jahaju** » 26 Aug 2009 18:26

Photographs of Mig29K

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... &page=1491

It is the Ninth Post.

Hope this the correct thread.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Aug 2009 18:42

Awesome pics ...I like the IN cammo scheme.Also notice the wing root extensions on Mig-29K have a sharp edges as against a blunt/rounded edges on the SMT and even older fulcrums blocks.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 26 Aug 2009 18:55

Gerard, do you have intelligent bots set up that trawl the net searching for everything related to nuclear issues?

Your ability to provide links to nuclear related issues on a wide range of topics is nothing short of amazing.

Thanks again.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 26 Aug 2009 23:43

Thanks for the info.
What is amazing is that they are going to produce such a small reactor to be fitted in 7.5 mt (Approx.) hull.
I mean it will be at least 30-35% smaller than ours. May be being a part a NPT gave them peripheral access to certain tech.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 27 Aug 2009 09:13

Today's TOI carries an article that Pipava shipyard has bid to build seven warships for the Indian Navy. Anyone have any idea which ships these are?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Aug 2009 10:21

I read in BR long ago that some of indian BARC/DRDO type people
emigrated to work in brazilian nuclear program. is that true?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Aug 2009 10:58

The Sea Harriers will be grounded until the cause of the crash is acsertained.From reports,it was one of the aircraft which was going to be upgraded.There are any number of reasons as to what could've happened.In a recent F-22 Raptor crash,the cause was found to be G-forces that incapacitated the pilot.Since the IN says that the aircraft is in relatively shallow waters and can be retreived,it will be possible to acsertain the cause,mechanical failure or a poblem involving the pilot.The IN should take up the earlier offer of acquiring early retired ex-RN Sea Harriers ( a few dozen available),which were pensioned off due to lack of funds ,funds being earmarkedfor development and acquisition of the JSF STOVL version.This aircraft is also experiencing long delays,though the decision to buoild two new 60,000t carriers which will operate the JSF has bene taken.If the Viraat is to serve the In ubtil 2015 as planned aftre the latest refit,then it needs at least another 8 Sea Harriers.If ex-RN Sea Harriers are acquired,they will have to be upgraded as is being done with our remaining SHs.

Even after 2015,once the Gorshkov/ Vik and the first IAC "Cochin" carrier arrives,the Viraat can still soldier on until 2020 used for both the ASW and amphibious role.The remaining Harriers can be used in support of amphibious ops just as they are being used in USN amphib carriers.Equipped with new Merlin EH-101 ASW/multi-role helos,the carrier can play a very effevtive role for yet another decade.as ASW ops are going to be a critical factor with the huge PLAN,PN and other regional and extra-regional sub fleets which will be operating in the IOR.

An old report on the IN's lease of "two" Akulas from Russia,indicate that the deal was struck for a cost of $700 million for two subs for 10 years 2 years ago.At the end of the lease period,the subs will in all likelihood be offered to us at depreciated value.What is interesting is that the cost appears to be very reasonable,when compared with figures I've given for the price of
F-18SH's in the MMRCA thread (approx.$200 million per unit+ eqpt.), and that the IN cannot be prevented under lease terms from operating its own "1,000km+ cruise missiles" which are under development.Therefore,even the Akulas will be able to carry a part of our strategic arsenal if required,as the range of the missile will be more than the K-15s aboard the Arihant.With "300" submariners having undergone training in Russia,there will be enough crews for the two Akulas,plus in the first few years of operation,the subs will also be used to train locally more crews for the ATV/Arihant class.By 2011 therefore,the IN should be able to achieve its goal of operating both an SSBN and an SSGN.

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 27 Aug 2009 12:45

Does anyone have any news on India potentially integrating the AGEIS system into its new line of destroyers that will soon be under construction. I remember reading that it was offered to India and the the US didn't have a problem with giving the tech to India. Or will india choose to go with Israels MF-STAR (I think that's what its called) system.

John · Post by **John** » 27 Aug 2009 17:16

b_patel wrote:Does anyone have any news on India potentially integrating the AGEIS system into its new line of destroyers that will soon be under construction. I remember reading that it was offered to India and the the US didn't have a problem with giving the tech to India. Or will india choose to go with Israels MF-STAR (I think that's what its called) system.

We don't know what ver. of SPY-1 radar system Lockheed was offering with AEGIS. That said it seems unlikely since we don't have any platforms that can currently carry it.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 27 Aug 2009 18:24

Yaawwnnn...

I have never said China is more powerful: Navy Chief

"I have never said that China is more powerful than us. What I said is that for numbers to numbers, we don't want to compete (with them). May be we are better without having those numbers," he said.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 27 Aug 2009 19:40

Visible progress on Vikram's superstructure. Also, she is heavy by stern now
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/snake65/1.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/snake65/2.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/snake65/3.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/snake65/4.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/snake65/5.jpg

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Aug 2009 19:43

barak for navy means MF-star as the future radar system on all principal combatants.

SPY1F the export model is anyway not as big n powerful as SPY1D

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 27 Aug 2009 19:58

Vik can carry how many sam systems and how many vls cells for launching anti-ship missiles?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 27 Aug 2009 20:22

Drevin wrote:Vik can carry how many sam systems and how many vls cells for launching anti-ship missiles?

Gorshkov had space enough for 4 six-packs of Kinzhal SAM, shouldn't be a problem for Vikram as well.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 27 Aug 2009 20:58

Willy wrote:Today's TOI carries an article that Pipava shipyard has bid to build seven warships for the Indian Navy. Anyone have any idea which ships these are?

Pipavav shipyard wants to build the next line of submarines for the indian navy.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 27 Aug 2009 21:09

I was under the impression they would both have Barak-1 sam and Kasthan-M CIWS?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Aug 2009 23:46

Philip wrote:The IN should take up the earlier offer of acquiring early retired ex-RN Sea Harriers ( a few dozen available),which were pensioned off due to lack of funds ,funds being earmarkedfor development and acquisition of the JSF STOVL version.If the Viraat is to serve the In ubtil 2015 as planned aftre the latest refit,then it needs at least another 8 Sea Harriers.If ex-RN Sea Harriers are acquired,they will have to be upgraded as is being done with our remaining SHs.

I'm not sure that the offer for ex-RN SHar still stands..quite a few were sold off to scrapyards, museums, etc. after the IN did not take up the offer for these second-hand frames.

and while some blame the IN for not taking those ex-RN SHars, that was a result of the IN expecting the INS Vikramaditya coming into service around 2009, with its MiG-29Ks and so not needing SHars in any larger numbers than present numbers. there was also the matter of the UK not wanting to transfer Blue Vixen radars on board the upgraded Shar F/A2s

as it turns out, both the MiG-29K and the INS Vikramaditya are late- the MiG-29K by 1 year and the INS Vik by at least 4-5 years. and that leaves a potential shortfall of SHars and the rate at which SHars crash in service anywhere, there won't be any left by the time the INS Vik arrives. I guess that means the IN urgently needs to start opening channels of communication with UK and find any potential airworthy airframes, buy them and upgrade them at HAL to the LUSH standards.

else, the IN goes the RN way, with no meaningful fleet air defence capability far off from its shores, from where MiG-29Ks would be able to operate.

John · Post by **John** » 28 Aug 2009 03:39

vavinash wrote:I was under the impression they would both have Barak-1 sam and Kasthan-M CIWS?

It is unknown orginal model showed 8 Kashtan later ones showed mixture of Vl-shtil and Kashtan. However latest news articles say that Russia won't fit any and they will be fitted here during refit.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 28 Aug 2009 05:12

We could take the Gorshkov after all the Physical make over is done.
The rest of the refit for cabling, weaponisation etc and sea trails can be done in India ( with extensive russian involvement ofcourse ).
This experience would help us during the IAC trials. And the cost issue would also get resolved

The main problem might be that we would not have any shipyard to handle this refit.

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 28 Aug 2009 10:01

Hi Guys

Can anyone tell me how can I PM any other member of BR. My PM page tells me that I am not authorized to send PMs.

Thanks

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 28 Aug 2009 10:36

m mittal wrote:Hi Guys

Can anyone tell me how can I PM any other member of BR. My PM page tells me that I am not authorized to send PMs.

Thanks

Only the mods have access to the PM facility. Please post such queries in the forum feedback thread.