INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 25 Aug 2009 00:05

How are they able to pull off 2 subs couple of months apart?
- the level of confidence must be very very high?
- sea trials are probably already over?
- perceived threat is very real and very high?

If this is true then it is truly amazing - hats off to India and its brilliant engineers.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 25 Aug 2009 01:51

Who pulled two subs in couple of months?

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 25 Aug 2009 03:11

folks,

am reposting my almost 2 months old post.

jaladipc wrote:to the folks of BR,

Take it for granted or not,here is the news from chaiwallah related to Mr.Arihant aka ATV

Its a 7500tonn SSBN/SSGN with submerged displacement of 9000-11700 tonns.and a length of over 110m with a diameter between 13-14m.Currently the boomer cum attack submarine is equipped with a low-powered( limitation is such that an efficiency factor of only 80% ) local built PHWR which can let the boy to speed upto 25 knots submerged.

Since its a multipurpose class,it can take both SLBM`s or AShM`s. the weapon(i mean missile) compartment is really modular such that it can take both kinds of missiles.Specially any type of missile of any size.(IT is really modular).
Given the info,its really meant to be a test bed for the future generations ahead.So the only hurdle that we are lacking so far ,which is a sea based nuclear deterrent will be overcomed for time being.But the actual deterrent is in the making.
Since india already tested the russian version of submarine reactor 5 years back in the sea,this time we are testing our own reactor.
The next hulls are estimated to be enlarged versions with dual missile compartments in each.And includes a high cpacity factor nuclear reactor which takes in 40% HEU.

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 25 Aug 2009 04:05

"Katare
Who pulled two subs in couple of months?"

I was referring to the Indian press talking about a second nuclear sub nearing release.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Aug 2009 06:46

no, the 2nd and 3rd are some years off.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Aug 2009 08:51

INS Arihant and the road ahead - Commodore (r) Prem Kumar

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 25 Aug 2009 08:52

What do you mean 5 years back in sea ??

jaladipc wrote:folks,

am reposting my almost 2 months old post.

Since india already tested the russian version of submarine reactor 5 years back in the sea,this time we are testing our own reactor.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 25 Aug 2009 11:03

Arun_S wrote:Other day I was on paan chewing bing at nearby nukkad with friendly Afghans. In the run up to Borei, many designs were hydrodynamically tested by Rubin. As a result Arihant is neither Borei nor Akula but in similar class.

The Yindu picture of PM MMS speaking in background of submarine with poorly constructed acoustic tile that looked like tarpoline that is unevenly streached, is indeed a leading bleeding edge acoustic technique that Lord Shri Vishwakarma will be proud of.

Raj Malhotra wrote:Now getting back to Arihant. Some of links given above indicate that the dimensions of Arihant are 110-112mx15mx11-13m.
Yes, 15m for the hump (not sail). Meaning 13.5m missile tube. Thus adding more fuel to the fire. Definitely more than the BR's A3SL conception.

The curve of the sub at the bottom, the missile cannister, double hull etc will deduct some more length out of possible missile length. So i think 12.5m of Agni-SL may be ok (Based on diagrams of French Missiles and Subs on Wiki)

So I think Arihant is basically Akula made in the shape of Borei to carry SLBMs which will also match the Russian ambassader comments that it is a Akula.
... . . . .. . The ATV is said to be a modified
Akula-I class submarine. The Russian Akula-2 and Yasen are also modified Akula-1. By this line of reasoning the ATV would be in league of Yasen, so the ATV would be 6500 tons light, 8500 tons armed and surfaced and 10000 tons submerged. It would be the biggest and heaviest combat naval vessel built in India to date.[/url]
See my "tambul lok-apvaad" above.

Now the only issue is why the reactor is only 100MW. There are multiple answers:-

1. DRDO is not telling the truth and it is 190MWt

2. The reactor has been derated as it has been assembled in India and is being run with low enriched Uranium (20% rather than 45%). Further the idea is to optimise the stealth and not speed.

3. It is fourth generation reactor after Ok-650 wwith emphasis on silent operation and it has been able to achieve only 100MW and will be slowly uprated to 200MW
One can deduce to hearths content to consider: If its a competing design of Borei what will be its power plant; 85MWt?

If it is a competing deign of Borei it will not have only 4 tubes. The only reason for only 4 tubes is that sub was already underpowered

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Aug 2009 19:57

May I know what do folks mean by sub is underpowered ? Are there any Jingo specifications for Arihant which the latter does not meet ?

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 25 Aug 2009 20:18

negi wrote:May I know what do folks mean by sub is underpowered ? Are there any Jingo specifications for Arihant which the latter does not meet ?

25 Knots for an attack sub(from jaladipc's post), which most people believe is less than desired.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 25 Aug 2009 20:25

We dont have a picture of the sub and we are 100% sure of 4 tubes? chaiwallah is the key word.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 25 Aug 2009 21:46

negi wrote:May I know what do folks mean by sub is underpowered ? Are there any Jingo specifications for Arihant which the latter does not meet ?

You miss the Yindu expectation: Pay peanuts and magically expect a system that gives run for money for "Bideshi" leading edge. We only Yindians that believe in roap trick and Mantra/Tantra.

So unless LCA can fight like F22 and carry the weapons load of B1 it is a passe.

And unless Arihant can carry ICBM and sprint like a Hunter Killer it is passe.

And unless the poorly fed SRDE boy beat Schwarzenegger using his Mantra, his Mantra and culture is passe.

People forget that: One gets what it deserves; and India is no exception.

India now has a well engineered Arihant, san the warhead to make a weapon that will make a difference (deterrence)

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 27 Aug 2009 00:57

I read post that Arihant has 2 reactors and not 1 - comparing it to delta class.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 27 Aug 2009 01:17

Patrick Cusack wrote:I read post that Arihant has 2 reactors and not 1 - comparing it to delta class.

I think you misread. AFAIK, they built one on land to validate the design of the miniatired reactor and then the second one was built to be fit/work inside Arihant.

munna · Post by **munna** » 27 Aug 2009 01:50

Arun_S wrote:People forget that: One gets what it deserves; and India is no exception.

India now has a well engineered Arihant, sans the warhead to make a weapon that will make a difference (deterrence)

Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist
The prophet of doom was right all along! Arun_S is the honorary Roubini of BRF from now on.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 27 Aug 2009 04:15

$hit I have to apologize to Wallace and co.
The fact that uncle was pushing for the nuke deal was indeed to CRE Indian balls.
One consolation though along with me Mavericks of the world , their teen party chelas with pee HD's have to lead the delegation to Wallace as well as their nemesis webmaster who they denigrate day in day out.

I think Naveen Negi garu will mail the news from here to them
TIA
***
Looks like both the Chidambarams have screwed us to the last thread.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Aug 2009 05:10

This news out in the open is as explosive as the nuclear bombs that were tested. If the media picks this story up and runs it as a major headline, there is going to be trouble ahead.
This also puts an egg on the face of the big three scientists, Chidambram, Kakodkar, and much as I hate to say this, President Kalam, since he was present on that stage when Mr Chidambram claimed that they had reduced the yield to protect the khetolai village. ABV's credibility is also on the line here.

There will have to be clarifications or a cover up or a retest series. I wonder which one.

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 27 Aug 2009 06:13

The best way to neutralize 'restraint' of white worshipers is to put them in a situation where the public outcry is such that they have no option but to abandon their 'restraint'.

Remember that nehru had to abandon his 'white worshiping' after 1962. In a very twisted way, I think it will work out alright.

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Aug 2009 07:50

John Snow wrote:I think Naveen Negi garu will mail the news from here to them

Snow garu its a known fact that members who posts here lurk on Mav's blog and vice versa infact folks on the blog to be honest might be more informed than me as to what happens on BRF , so no question of me cross posting any stuff across the two fora (in fact I have never done it in the past except on one occasion when Mav had requested for a topic to be posted for SRR).

I for one have nothing to hide and I use the same handle on Mav's blog as here on BRF and trust me once an rakshak always a rakshak .

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Aug 2009 08:05

I have posted the front page news in mizzile thread. decisive fast moving airland victory for Arun saar - who I insist stand for president!

atma · Post by **atma** » 27 Aug 2009 09:51

At the risk of incurring the wrath of BRF diehards, adminullahs, and others, I wish to ask a question. We have discussed on BRF and it is widely known, that with today's computing prowess, data from a test can be extrapolated and algorithms can be used to devise a warhead without testing, just as the french have done. Why such a hoopla about the " failed Pokharan tests"? Why should Arihant not have a deterrent, if it has a powerplant that has not been tested before? Does everything have to be tested ? Or is it OK if it works, and simulations suggest it will work?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 27 Aug 2009 10:06

atma wrote:At the risk of incurring the wrath of BRF diehards, adminullahs, and others, I wish to ask a question. We have discussed on BRF and it is widely known, that with today's computing prowess, data from a test can be extrapolated and algorithms can be used to devise a warhead without testing, just as the french have done. Why such a hoopla about the " failed Pokharan tests"? Why should Arihant not have a deterrent, if it has a powerplant that has not been tested before? Does everything have to be tested ? Or is it OK if it works, and simulations suggest it will work?

Atma,

I really dont know whether to laugh at this statement or give some snide comments castigating this statement.

Simulation =/ not reality.

You assume some things about reality and then extrapolate to validate your assumptions with your simulations. If simulations data and reality doesnt match, guess where did you go wrong and what you will change.

That should answer your question.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Aug 2009 10:14

the countries who rely on simulations today have 100s of tests worth of data to rely on.

also amirkhan shared simulation data and techniques with france and uk to get them onboard to stop testing.

the chinese have dozens of tests to rely on including some very high yield ones. to compensate for higher CEP, they tipped their old liquid fuel ICBMs
with 1 MT warheads.

when the pakistanis need a fusion device , a physically proven design will be given.

the language of raw power does not mix well with the shambling, apologetic, log kya kahenge , minimalist defensive and timid posture the India govt takes on all matters related to security - as if we are in a desperate bid to hold on to what little we have instead of rapaciously going out and fighting for a share of the pie.

atma · Post by **atma** » 27 Aug 2009 10:38

Ravi, singha...thanks for straightening me out.

Ted Kotcheff · Post by **Ted Kotcheff** » 27 Aug 2009 10:57

What stops us from getting a proven design from the Ruskies? If Chinki can get away with it, so can Rusland.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Aug 2009 11:41

Because this is only a TN weapon we are talking about. This tech is well within our scientists reach. Please know that India is an advanced nuclear power with 23 reactors in operation. Even China has lesser number of reactors, India's first reactor came on line before china's did.

It is only India's Gandhian thinking leadership which held back our nuclear scientists for so long.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 27 Aug 2009 12:06

Ted Kotcheff wrote:What stops us from getting a proven design from the Ruskies? If Chinki can get away with it, so can Rusland.

And how do we ensure it works ?

Secondly, remember that the russies are protecting their national interest, they are not running a charity show. How does it serve their purposes that SDREs get a bum ?

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 27 Aug 2009 12:18

The same way as it served their purpose consulting for the Arihant. This time give them the MMRCA contract for the bum

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Aug 2009 13:57

One consolation though along with me Mavericks of the world , their teen party chelas with pee HD's have to lead the delegation to Wallace as well as their nemesis webmaster who they denigrate day in day out

Who are these folks and where do they post ?. Must be very tough eating a lot of humble pie after dishing it out.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 27 Aug 2009 14:22

T

he same way as it served their purpose consulting for the Arihant. This time give them the MMRCA contract for the bum

Russians may not give us the thermo nuclear explosion technology -this is one technology we have to perfect ourselves -we are almost there a few more steps and a few more tests -our leaders need to have the balls to take that decisive steps - the nuke deal let it go to hell for all we care

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 27 Aug 2009 14:34

Please stop making irresponsible statements about Russian Indian nuclear collaboration in weapons domain. There is no proof on this, and one does not need to give ammunition to NPA types.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Aug 2009 14:47

I don't know why we mistrust our top scientists,when they say that the ATV's reactor is "Indian",designed and built.Russian help no doubt to assist us from making mistakes,but under the terms of the various non-proliferation treaties,they would be most reluctant to "sell" us a design.France is similarly asisting Brazil for it to develop its own Nuclear sub.Both Russian and Indian interest were served with the ATV project,Akula lease and other defence deals.The single difference is that NO other nation offered to us what Russia has given/asssited us with.

Incidentally ,the lease price for the two Akula-2s was reported some timeago as being $700 million .This is a very reasonable figure when compared with prices offered for Brazil for F-18SHs.The aircraft package comes in at about $200 per unit.$25 Biillion for 126! calculate how many N-subs we could build/acquire for that kind of money.

avinash.rd · Post by **avinash.rd** » 27 Aug 2009 15:01

Philip,

Your right. We need nuclear subs compared to any other weapon system. They are the best nuclear strike force. 6-8 boomers with 12 missiles in each could send strong message to our neighbors. I think we definitely need 6 minimum. We should start building our own things from hair pin to a nuclear sub. Lakhs and lakhs of engineer pass out every year from Indian engineering colleges. I cant make out what is the problem!!

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 27 Aug 2009 15:21

vina wrote:
One consolation though along with me Mavericks of the world , their teen party chelas with pee HD's have to lead the delegation to Wallace as well as their nemesis webmaster who they denigrate day in day out
Who are these folks and where do they post ?. Must be very tough eating a lot of humble pie after dishing it out.

Humble pie

Intellectual dishonesty does not know humble pie.

yossarian · Post by **yossarian** » 27 Aug 2009 16:06

avinash.rd wrote:Philip,
Lakhs and lakhs of engineer pass out every year from Indian engineering colleges. I cant make out what is the problem!!

If only you saw the quality of engineers....me included.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 27 Aug 2009 17:08

THE MAN BEHIND INS ARIHANT - Vice Admiral ( retd) DSP Varma

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 27 Aug 2009 17:38

The video taken on the shore based reactor clearly had display boards stating that the miniature reactor was 100MWt. So, why are people still speculating? Is even BARC display boards not kosher enough now?

no ravi no -BARC has lost all credibility to the nation after today's disclosure

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 27 Aug 2009 17:41

I don't know why we mistrust our top scientists,when they say that the ATV's reactor is "Indian",designed and built.

BARC has lost all credibility to the nation after today's disclosure-that is why I never believed the tall claim of indian nuclear reactor and only with Russian limited assistance

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Aug 2009 17:58

Shankar wrote:I don't know why we mistrust our top scientists,when they say that the ATV's reactor is "Indian",designed and built.

BARC has lost all credibility to the nation after today's disclosure-that is why I never believed the tall claim of indian nuclear reactor and only with Russian limited assistance

I see no reason to discredit entire BARC for sins of few , BARC has done good work in the area of power generation, computing, life science , reactors civil and defence , space and hundred of other areas.

BARC does not work in isolation , they are part of GOI apparatus and they have to toe the GOI line , so we really do not know if it was the then GOI , the babus or the scientist that caved in , it is possible that BARC must have told them we need test and GOI did not have the courage to go beyond the 5.

We really do not know who is at fault , but what we know is TN failed and we need to test it again before GOI sign on the dotted line of CTBT or just loose the ability to develop such class of weapons forever which is unacceptable

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Aug 2009 18:01

BARC has lost all credibility to the nation after today's disclosure-that is why I never believed the tall claim of indian nuclear reactor and only with Russian limited assistance.

And people talk about intellectual dishonesty ...wow.