Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 04 Sep 2009 09:51

Bit Old now but still
BBC's coverage of t-90.
Listen to the leaders and generals speak.

govardhanks · Post by **govardhanks** » 04 Sep 2009 17:29

Some updated info i found in net:

1. Guardium Autonomous Unmanned Ground Vehicles developed by Israel http://www.defense-update.com/products/g/guardium.htm

2.G-NIUS will Develop the Next-Generation Unmanned Ground Vehicle named Nahshon .http://www.defense-update.com/features/ ... hshon.html

3. Mosquito micro UAV by Israel. http://www.defense-update.com/features/ ... rouav.html

Is there any link describing all armoured vehicles of India. ?

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 04 Sep 2009 18:42

govardhanks wrote:Is there any link describing all armoured vehicles of India. ?

You could try the BR Army section.

KarthikSan · Post by **KarthikSan** » 11 Sep 2009 09:46

India's first anti-terror armoured vehicle unveiled

From Rediff India

With the government of India increasing its focus on updating the defence forces with modern technology, a private Indian company has launched a range armoured vehicles for the Indian armed forces and police.

The range includes DHRUV-ATC (armoured troop carrier), DRONA--MPV (blast and mine protection vehicle) and VIPER (fast moving attack vehicle).

The high-end armoured vehicle, which is a first-of-its-kind in India with bullet, mine and blast proof capabilities will be showcased in New Delhi in October.

The company, Shri Lakshmi Defense Solution Limited, has commenced commercial production and is in the process of delivering its first bulletproof vehicle DHRUV-ATC to the Special Task Force from its new unit at Rahsupur, near Kanpur, in Uttar Pradesh.

The company currently is in talks with Indian paramilitary forces and also some high-value customers in India, Europe and the Middle- East who want their vehicles to be armoured with Level-B7 protection with bullet, mine and bomb-proof accessories. The armour could cost anywhere between Rs 50 lakh to over Rs 1 crore, depending upon the accessories embedded in the vehicle. The high-end armoured vehicles will be supplied to government officials, head of states, army, and prominent VIPs.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 18 Sep 2009 19:55

Any news on the LSV competition...It was supposed to finish last winter...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Sep 2009 20:34

paging sanjay (BM), anyone else

any idea of our BMP-2 holdings at the moment (of all kinds) ?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 18 Sep 2009 21:23

India

Indian BMP-2 "Sarath" on maneuvers.
BMP-2 "Sarath" ("Chariot of Victory") - Indian license-produced variant of BMP-2[5], built by the Ordnance Factory Medak. The first vehicle, assembled from components supplied by KBP, was ready in 1987. By 1999, about 90% of the complete vehicle and its associated systems was being produced in India. It was estimated in 2002 that 1,200 vehicles were built.
BMP-2 "Sarath" based armoured ambulance. It retains the turret but without the gun or smoke grenade launchers.[5] The troop compartment has been modified to carry four stretchers.
BMP-2 "Sarath" based armoured recovery vehicle. It is fitted with a light hydraulic crane.[5]
BMP-2 "Sarath" based armoured amphibious dozer. Turret-less combat engineer vehicle, fitted with a folding dozer blade at the rear, mine ploughs, a main winch with a capacity of 8,000 kg and a rocket-propelled earth anchor for self-recovery.
BMP-2 "Sarath" based armoured engineer reconnaissance vehicle. This version has no gun and is fitted with lots of specialised equipment, including an echo-sounder, a water current meter, a laser range finder and GPS. On the left rear of the hull, a marking system with 40 rods is fitted.
BMP-2 "Sarath" based NBC reconnaissance vehicle. Externally very similar to the basic vehicle but fitted with all kinds of sampling, testing and marking systems. The NBCRV was developed by DRDO and VRDE and has been ordered by the Indian army.
Namica (Nag Missile Carrier) - Tank destroyer without turret and with a higher roofline. The "Nag" (cobra) missile is launched from a retractable armoured launcher that contains four launch tubes and the guidance package. "Nag" is a fire-and-forget top-attack ATGM with a tandem-HEAT warhead and a range of at least 4,000 m.
Akash - Air-defence missile system that is based on a modified "Sarath" chassis with 7 road wheels. On top of the hull there's a launcher for three SAM's with a range of 27 km and semi-active homing guidance.[5]
Rajendra - This is a multifunctional 3-D phased radar (MUFAR), associated with the Akash system. It is also based on the stretched chassis.
BMP-2 "Sarath" based carrier mortar tracked vehicle. This turret-less version has a 81 mm mortar[9] mounted in the modified troop compartment. The mortar is fired through an opening in the hull roof that has two hinged doors. It has a max. range of 5,000 m and a normal rate of fire of 6-8 rds/min. There is also a longe-range version of the mortar.[10] The vehicle carries 108 mortar rounds and is also fitted with a 7.62 mm machine gun with 2,350 rounds. Crew: 2+4.[11] The first prototype was complete in 1997.
BMP-2 "UGV" - unmanned reconnaissance vehicle fitted with equipment used to detect nuclear, biological and chemical contamination as well as mines.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Sep 2009 21:49

thanks for the list, although I'm looking for the numbers.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 18 Sep 2009 22:29

With the government of India increasing its focus on updating the defence forces with modern technology, a private Indian company has launched a range armoured vehicles for the Indian armed forces and police.

The range includes DHRUV-ATC (armoured troop carrier), DRONA--MPV (blast and mine protection vehicle) and VIPER (fast moving attack vehicle).

The high-end armoured vehicle, which is a first-of-its-kind in India with bullet, mine and blast proof capabilities will be showcased in New Delhi in October.

See what private player can do in the defence industry!!!!!

The TATAs, Mahindras and many more smaller player are all coming up with their own Infantry vehicles, attack vehicles, SUVs. The army has so many options to choose from and the products are very much internationally competative.

Let's hope this trend is emulated in other sectors. Privatization of defence in the way ahead. I am starting to wonder what TATA or Mahindra could make out of the Arjun MBT. If they are provided with the R&D of Arjun maybe they can speed up the process. Battle tanks would be the next logical step for these automobile companies.

soumik · Post by **soumik** » 18 Sep 2009 22:42

The viper looks like one mean machine!
anyways anybody know the website of shree lakshmi.. looked it up on wiki couldn't find anything.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 18 Sep 2009 22:48

The high-end armoured vehicle, which is a first-of-its-kind in India with bullet, mine and blast proof capabilities will be showcased in New Delhi in October.

What about Mahindra Marksman ?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 19 Sep 2009 02:23

soumik wrote:The viper looks like one mean machine!
anyways anybody know the website of shree lakshmi.. looked it up on wiki couldn't find anything.

The Armet Group

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 19 Sep 2009 20:02

BMP - perhaps 2000 or so - 700 BMP-1, some 800 BMP-2 produced or purchased up to 1993 and production continued.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 04 Oct 2009 17:41

India will deploy 'light tanks' along Chinese border (or in other words, "we don't want Arjun")

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Oct 2009 17:46

Dmurphy wrote:India will deploy 'light tanks' along Chinese border (or in other words, "we don't want Arjun")

Dmurphy, the 300 light tanks being talked about and the Arjun are not mutually exclusive. They are required in addition to the regular MBTs.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 18:09

people might remember that we had discussed the light tank issue in a previous iteration of this thread.
anyway, the current proposal seems to be more akin to an ICV/IFV concept. IMHO a combination of ATGM and 105 mm gun armed ICVs is the solution.
a NAMICA like vehicle but one based upon a more survivable chasis (abhay may be ?) might be a possible contender.

as to wheeled vehicles, I guess they will look for some version of the piranha.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Oct 2009 18:16

Rahul M wrote:people might remember that we had discussed the light tank issue in a previous iteration of this thread.
anyway, the current proposal seems to be more akin to an ICV/IFV concept. IMHO a combination of ATGM and 105 mm gun armed ICVs is the solution.
a NAMICA like vehicle but one based upon a more survivable chasis (abhay may be ?) might be a possible contender.

as to wheeled vehicles, I guess they will look for some version of the piranha.

Rahul M, for too long there has been need for Light Tanks. The Mechanized formations in IA lack true blue Recce units for which a combination of IFVs and Light Tanks is must. We do that using soft skinned vehicles. Apart from ofcourse, requirement for HAA. But like I said, lets wait for more infor on this. An ICV/IFV platform with 105mm gun automatically takes it to the Light Tank territory. Many ICV/IFV platforms have various options available and 105mm equipped versions are one of them.

PLease see this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CV90

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 18:24

yep boss, I am of the same opinion that light tanks are needed but almost everyone on this thread disagreed with me !

CV-90 is quite similar to the abhay btw, check the specs.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/dr ... ailed.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CV90
================

added later :

check this page for the quick summary on abhay
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 721939.JPG

at least on two point abhay scores over CV-90
> better protection :- against medium caliber in frontal arc, small caliber protection in all other arcs. only small caliber protection for CV-90 (except one version for norway)

> suspension :- torsion bar for CV-90, hydro-pneumatic for abhay

and CV-90 scores on two points :-
> one version already mated with a 105 mm gun from nexter (but no users yet for this version AFA I can see)
http://www.deagel.com/Main-Battle-Tanks ... 89013.aspx

> carries one more soldier.

IMHO, India's needs are unique and it would be better to make a pure light tank using the basic design of a good ICV rather than go for a compromise solution. I hope they don't get stuck at a lower caliber.
a pure light tank (without carrying soldiers) will have the extra space that can be used to fill up with ammo and better protection.

using the same basic chasis and subsystems for ICVs/light tanks and ATGM carriers will give tremendous logistics advantages. a combination of all three will make for an ideal mountain armoured formation. unfortunately this can happen only if we go for a desi design.

what's more, a light tank can be used in an air-droppable armoured regiment as well. (hey, I can dream, right?

)

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Oct 2009 19:07

outside of swampy\marsh areas - most other places its lot easier to deal with wheeled vehicles.

Why add one more logistics headaches?

and if someone really wants a light tank - base it on a BMP \ Abhay

meanwhile a family of wheeled vehilces with variable pressure tires etc can solve most of the problem

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Oct 2009 19:12

unless any new offering gains a israeli turret, a italian remote HMG station and french electro-opticals we all know it cannot pass the rigorous IA tests. DRDO should actually act chankian and tie up with the relevant parties to offer Abhay-mki as the soln rather than a purely desified 'pony' for the dog n kennel club show.

nash · Post by **nash** » 04 Oct 2009 19:17

what about Tank-Ex for this order ..

in wiki order of 300 tank is mention there..

may be IA considering Tank-Ex,just like arjun...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 19:22

tenk-ex is a MBT not a light tank.

nash · Post by **nash** » 04 Oct 2009 19:36

Rahul M wrote:tenk-ex is a MBT not a light tank.

then in this way abhay can be a IFV not the light tank...

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 04 Oct 2009 19:55

nash wrote:
Rahul M wrote:tenk-ex is a MBT not a light tank.
then in this way abhay can be a IFV not the light tank...

Isn't a light tank different from Infantry carrier ?? Abay IFV is an infantry carrier.

Some examples of truly light tanks (Not infantry carriers)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_light_tank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT-76

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 20:21

nash, I'm not sure what you mean. perhaps you can re-word your question ?
=========

krish, there are not many pure light tank designs in use currently, evolution of aiming and anti-tank weapons technology has forced a general move towards heavier and better protected armoured vehicles, rendering light tanks obsolete in all but the most specialised scenarios.

modern light tank designs are almost all derived from ICV designs (e.g 105 mm stryker, the CV_90 105 example I posted earlier) and most of them do retain a passenger carrying capability.

one family of pseudo-light tanks in use for quite sometime is the russian BMD family, especially the BMD-4.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Oct 2009 20:24

Add the Scorpion and thats it with light tanks

better to do a wheeled family and have one of them mount a 90mm or 105 mm gun

The french have it right AMX-10C and a couple of others

but no matter - an modern RPG will cut through these light tanks

like Mowag, like VAB - we need to develop a family of vehicles - unbelievable that these countries developed it in 80s

and for 30 yrs the IA did didly squat to look for wheeled armoured vehicle family

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 04 Oct 2009 20:39

Rahul M wrote: modern light tank designs are almost all derived from ICV designs (e.g 105 mm stryker, the CV_90 105 example I posted earlier) and most of them do retain a passenger carrying capability.

one family of pseudo-light tanks in use for quite sometime is the russian BMD family, especially the BMD-4.

How about adding a 105 mm tank gun on the chassis of VDRE Light Armoured Wheeled Vehicle (LAWV). It could result is something like the American M1128 Mobile Gun System. With it's speed and agility it would could be very useful. But the M1128 is based on the 8X8 Stryker. Is a wheeled so called "light tank" of any disadvantage ?? It sure seems popular among it's user.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Oct 2009 20:48

Krishna

That would make too much sense.

The disadvantages of wheeled are very few thats why many are using wheeled

unless it was a Bangladesh - wheeled vehicles suffice for most tasks. ( just make sure u have tracked recovery vehicles for wet conditions)

we have a whole BMP family - we should be having a whole wheeled family

Thank god Vina has not seen this

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Oct 2009 21:07

Surya wrote:Add the Scorpion and thats it with light tanks
better to do a wheeled family and have one of them mount a 90mm or 105 mm gun
The french have it right AMX-10C and a couple of others but no matter - an modern RPG will cut through these light tanks
like Mowag, like VAB - we need to develop a family of vehicles - unbelievable that these countries developed it in 80s
and for 30 yrs the IA did didly squat to look for wheeled armoured vehicle family

The IA actually utilized the BTR-60 (~800) and SKOT wheeled APC for its Infantry before the advent of BMP-XX. Also, there are 2 things one needs to evaluate parallely. Availability of funds and doctrine. As per Army Plan 2000, entire plains IDs were to be mechanized save for 7 which were to become RAPID;to be used in less armor favorable terrain. But look where we are. IA could have done only so many things with priority given to acquiring MBTs and IFVs. So, now when we have funds, we will see the right things being inducted.These wheeled vehicles were developed by respective countries to suit their doctrinal requirements. Like foreign deployment of a battle group;light and air trasportable vehicle which can give fire support and for recce missions.
Like I said in an earlier post, we also need these 105mm light tanks for our Recce troops but 'paisa kahan hai'. Now that we have, we might see such a thing inducted with Mechanized formations as well.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 21:39

krish, that was exactly what I was proposing.

surya sahab, some of these vehicles claim full frontal protection against medium caliber APFSDS, don't think RPGs are more lethal.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Oct 2009 21:47

do tanks and APCs have automatic transmissions ?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Oct 2009 21:57

Singha wrote:do tanks and APCs have automatic transmissions ?

Ze Arjun has automatic transmission. No clutch. Just press a small button on top of a small gear handle and change the gear....(I hope I'm correct in calling that automatic..

)

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 22:01

surya saab, arjun mystery is solved !
vina ji is in charge of army acquisition !

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Oct 2009 22:20

Will 4X4 system be capable of hosting a 105mm gun and provide the necessary advantage? All those systems out there are min.6X6 or tracked.

And as for how I know about the Arjun, well, gentlemen, drums and rolls........ I drove one of these beauties in 1995 in Pathankot when they had just entered with 43rd Armored for trial and evaluation. Another funny tid-bit; courtsey the hydro-pneumatic suspension unit, the tank can be lowered/raised. So when I reached the unit to see/drive the tank, couple of them are lower in profile compared to others. And I go to myself,"damn man, can't they make two tanks alike....

"......

nash · Post by **nash** » 04 Oct 2009 22:42

Rahul M wrote:nash, I'm not sure what you mean. perhaps you can re-word your question ?
=========

krish, there are not many pure light tank designs in use currently, evolution of aiming and anti-tank weapons technology has forced a general move towards heavier and better protected armoured vehicles, rendering light tanks obsolete in all but the most specialised scenarios.

modern light tank designs are almost all derived from ICV designs (e.g 105 mm stryker, the CV_90 105 example I posted earlier) and most of them do retain a passenger carrying capability.

one family of pseudo-light tanks in use for quite sometime is the russian BMD family, especially the BMD-4.

hi rahul

i mean in the headline it say 300 LIGHT tank and Tank-Ex may be fall into this category...
Also in the wiki order of 300 Tank-Ex mention in future..
So,in this way i make conclusion about this...

but u said Abhay will be adequate for the army, which is a IFV...

then how can IFV or ICV can acts as Tank...

Hope i make myself clear...

PS: in the Article IA req. 22-23 Ton Tank ,may be the some version of Abhay or may be a typo inplace of ICV editor wrote Tank..

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 04 Oct 2009 23:02

Tank EX is not a light tank
It is more than 40 tons

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 23:42

nash, the first requirement for a light tank is that it has to be 'light'.
tank-ex is a main battle tank (MBT) which by definition is NOT a light tank.

also, I don't think the editor has made a mistake. what constitutes a light tank is always a somewhat hazy definition. think of it as a role that can filled by a variety of vehicles rather than one particular definition.
to put it simply,
# some ICVs are light tanks
# all light tanks are not ICVs
# some ICVs can become light tanks.

savvy ?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Oct 2009 00:03

Rohit

The BTRs and Skots were standard stuff available from the Soviets (and WP).

so we had BTRs plus Skots and Topaz - standard kit whne taking the first steps.

Then we decided on BMPs (although there are some BRDMs for AT and recce roles) as the main std. This made sense and for once we were being sensible (although a line of cheaper wheeled vehicles should have been pursued at the same time - 4x4,6x6 and 8x8)

Meanwhile as wheel technology improved - wheeled vehicles came back in favor for most tasks.

Now all this happened and people were producing whole families to standardise - we slept OR decided BMPs were enough.

Now suddenly we need both wheeled and tracked AND we need it NEW - Huh??

Money - has been returned without using for years. last decade money has rarely been an issue

If it is tracked - then please show me why the BMP\Abhay derivative will not do the work

If it is wheeled - please show me whats the super duper technology that you cannot ask the private sector to go find a partner and what is missing in the wheeled vehicles developed by VRDE but were never put in production

(of course we are still testing and testing and testing our hummer equivalent )

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 05 Oct 2009 00:11

nash wrote:
Rahul M wrote:nash, I'm not sure what you mean. perhaps you can re-word your question ?
=========

krish, there are not many pure light tank designs in use currently, evolution of aiming and anti-tank weapons technology has forced a general move towards heavier and better protected armoured vehicles, rendering light tanks obsolete in all but the most specialised scenarios.

modern light tank designs are almost all derived from ICV designs (e.g 105 mm stryker, the CV_90 105 example I posted earlier) and most of them do retain a passenger carrying capability.

one family of pseudo-light tanks in use for quite sometime is the russian BMD family, especially the BMD-4.

hi rahul

i mean in the headline it say 300 LIGHT tank and Tank-Ex may be fall into this category...
Also in the wiki order of 300 Tank-Ex mention in future..
So,in this way i make conclusion about this...

but u said Abhay will be adequate for the army, which is a IFV...

then how can IFV or ICV can acts as Tank...

Hope i make myself clear...

PS: in the Article IA req. 22-23 Ton Tank ,may be the some version of Abhay or may be a typo inplace of ICV editor wrote Tank..

Nash, The same wiki article on Tank Ex mentions that the Indian Army had rejected the tank...
To the Gurus, can anyone tell why Tank Ex was rejected???
I mean it was giving the best of both worlds to us..
Rahulji way to explain it...

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 05 Oct 2009 00:17

suryaji, i thought the AXE was already being inducted???