India-China News and Discussion

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Sep 2009 11:09

archan wrote:China bound UAE plane had large weapons cache, caught in Kolkata
Hmmm...two possibilities come to mind as first thoughts:

1) UAE wanted to send arms to Uighurs without PRC govt. knowing about it.
or
2) Arms were intended to be distributed among anti-India terrorists in J&K through a China channel.

Wonder if there could be another possibility. Anyone?

Archan, UAE can never afford to offend China by supporting Uyghurs so brazenly. The arms were meant for India, no doubt about that. India has to open the cases and see exactly what arms these are and seize them. They should not be allowed to go anywhere.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 08 Sep 2009 11:16

Unkil provided arms to be examined by chinkil?

archan · Post by **archan** » 08 Sep 2009 11:29

Acharya,
The NE connection - isn't that region mainly PRC's interest? if yes, then why does PRC need someone like UAE (which could be Pak's proxy) to send arms for NE? PRC can do it (and they specialize in making 'Made in XYZ' labels) on its own. No? plus, while UAE may not like India, but is the "dislike" enough to indulge in terrorist activity as a state? UAE and other ummah brothers have an active interest in J&K and Afghanistan (against India and US), so my feeling is they would more actively support insurgencies over there.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Sep 2009 12:16

Rishi wrote:Unkil provided arms to be examined by chinkil?

That was one thought that crossed my mind too. But, I wondered whether UAE would not have taken more precautions when transferring such a shipment. Another reason why I dismissed that thought was that UAE wants quality arms for its Armed Forces and the US is meeting a large part of military requirements with the British & the French doing the rest. The Emiratis would not like to buy the JF-17s. After all, UAE Has the latest F-16s and it wouldn't want to jeopardize that relationship, all said and done.

arun · Post by **arun** » 08 Sep 2009 12:20

X Post.

Excerpted, portion devoted to P.R. China from interview of Home Minister P Chidambaram by Al Jazeera’s Hamish Macdonald:

UPDATED ON:
Monday, September 07, 2009
10:22 Mecca time, 07:22 GMT ………………..

Border disputes with China

I want to ask you about border issues though because it's part of your area as home affairs minister. You have the world’s biggest disputed land border with China. Is that not a bigger concern, not a bigger potential threat?

Well it is a problem that has to be resolved, that will be resolved in due course. For the present, there are two special representatives who talk from time to time. We have talks with the SR of China only about a month ago. But while that border is indeed an issue that has to be resolved, there is no infiltration [of] militants across the border. There is no shooting on that border.

What do you think Chinese helicopters have [been] doing then in recent months, dropping out-of-date frozen pork products into parts of Kashmir?

The defence ministry and ministry of external affairs have explained that. Those reports are largely exaggerated.

The Indian army chief, [General] Deepak Kapoor did say that "there had been several violations … it could have happened due to navigational error but that does not justify it". What's going on there?

I think he captured the position correctly. It is a disputed border. There could be navigational errors. What we think are violations have taken place and these are resolved by talking to each other. But please remember that the India-China border is not the same as the LOC between India and Pakistan, where infiltration takes place, violence takes place. My concern at least as home minister [is] … about infiltration … about violence. Our concern [is] about nabbing infiltrators and militants. That's my immediate concern.

So even though China is increasing its nuclear submarine arsenal in the Indian Ocean, you are also deploying extra forces along the Chinese border, you're telling me that Pakistan is still a much bigger concern than the Chinese border issue?

I don't think the two are comparable. [At] the ministry for home affairs, we are concerned about internal security. If you want to discuss matters of foreign policy and external security, we can discuss that but that is not the subject of today's discussion.

Al Jazeera

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 08 Sep 2009 12:25

I have been recently reading "Ghost Wars" (sorry, Late Latif onlee), and there, time and again, we see how lenient Unkil can be to the munnas. UAE can do this and get away with it because Unkil wants those docking rights in Dubai for the USN and the other investments.

Another reading from the book: USA (SD/Pentagon) looks at TSP's proxy war in J&K as a legit activity to tie down IA forces by TSPA, and will not take sides or deter TSPA.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 08 Sep 2009 12:37

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090908/j ... 465447.jsp

The UAE is one of biggest arms buyers in the world, purchasing weapons far in excess of its needs. Its most publicised arms deals are with the US, the UK and France. Chinese and Russian deals are secret, and the story of defence deals with China is bound to unsettle the Pentagon, which counts the UAE as an ally.

UAE a proxy for China to purchase western arms?

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 08 Sep 2009 12:44

From the same, the taller and deeper relationship go long back... you forgot to highlight the previous line

An airport in Sharjah, also in the UAE, once used to be the transit point for missile parts and suspected nuclear material sent from China to Pakistan, which were carried on chartered US commercial planes. The flights used to come from China to Sharjah, refuel and go to Pakistan.

Just a few days back, UAE intercepted a N Korean ship carrying arms to Iran. And whats funny is

The diplomats said the Australian firm whose ship was seized is controlled by a French conglomerate and the actual export was arranged by the Shanghai office of an Italian company. The diplomats did not name any of the firms involved.

wheels within wheels....

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 08 Sep 2009 12:51

Rishi wrote:http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090908/j ... 465447.jsp
The UAE is one of biggest arms buyers in the world, purchasing weapons far in excess of its needs. Its most publicised arms deals are with the US, the UK and France. Chinese and Russian deals are secret, and the story of defence deals with China is bound to unsettle the Pentagon, which counts the UAE as an ally.
UAE a proxy for China to purchase western arms?

to be sent to support insurgencies and rogue govts without any trace which Chinese manufactured weapons gifted could have raised a stink?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Sep 2009 13:12

RayC wrote:to be sent to support insurgencies and rogue govts without any trace which Chinese manufactured weapons gifted could have raised a stink?

The same way the Americans scouted for Russian arms from Egypt and East European countries in the early 80s to equip Mujahideen and make them claim that they were after all using arms captured from Russians themselves.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 08 Sep 2009 13:22

There are people who are upset with my posts in the YSR thread.

To me religion is not important, what is important is India should not lose her independence.

I would not like to get into details, but it appears that the US is so creating an atmosphere that we jump into the warm embrace of the US.

There are many good reasons to be closer to the US, but not at the cost of our Independence!

I wonder if US arms could be landed in China for Xinjiang rebels!

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 08 Sep 2009 13:25

SSridhar wrote:
RayC wrote:to be sent to support insurgencies and rogue govts without any trace which Chinese manufactured weapons gifted could have raised a stink?
The same way the Americans scouted for Russian arms from Egypt and East European countries in the early 80s to equip Mujahideen and make them claim that they were after all using arms captured from Russians themselves.

Ghost Wars mentions that the Americans refurbished captured iraqi T-72s and shipped them to the anti-Najibullah forces via Pak. (and reportedly, Pak kept a good share for themselves)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Sep 2009 18:01

Now why can't we come up with something equally patriotic what?!

The thoughts of Chairman Mao (starring Jackie Chan and Jet Li)

As China prepares to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the People's Republic, a new blockbuster tells the story of its founding. Naturally, the nation's biggest movie stars took part, as Clifford Coonan reports from Beijing

There has never been a movie quite like Jiangguo Daye. The blockbuster features nearly 200 of China's top movie stars, including action heroes Jackie Chan and Jet Li plus a host of directors, comedy stars and even journalists. There is Zhang Ziyi of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Stephen Chow of Kung Fu Hustle, and Hong Kong heartthrob Andy Lau. Imagine a Hollywood film featuring the entire celebrity audience at the Oscars and you get the idea.

But The Founding of a Republic – the title in English – is not just an A-list extravaganza. It is a stirring propaganda epic, a tale of how 60 years ago, when Chairman Mao's scruffy band of revolutionary warriors overcame Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalist Kuomintang in the civil war to establish the world's most enduring Communist revolution.

The film is a key component in celebrations to mark six decades since the foundation of the People's Republic of China on 1 October 1949. It is also tipped to be one of the biggest hits in China in years. Younger Chinese cinema-goers typically give a wide berth to state-sponsored propaganda. As an example of the genre, this one is up alongside Sergei Eisenstein's Battleship Potemkin, Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will or Roland Emmerich's Independence Day. But by peppering the picture with stars, its producers hoped to update patriotic cinema for a new generation. If the audience at a preview screening yesterday were anything to go by, they succeeded. They cheered loudly and chuckled when their favourite actors or pop stars appeared on screen.

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Anyone visiting China, who wonders why the face of founding father, Chairman Mao Zedong, is still on all the banknotes after the disasters of the Great Leap Forward in the 1950s and the vicious excesses of the Cultural Revolution (1966-76), need only watch this movie.

Mao is played by the startlingly similar Tang Guoqiang, who emphasises his "Great Helmsman" side, a hagiography of the provincial Hunanese turned international revolutionary hero. He is an avuncular father figure, a hero who cares deeply for his troops and the people, devoid of the ruthlessness described by some biographers, most notably Jung Chang and Jon Halliday in their 2005 book Mao: The Unknown Story.

Co-directed by Han Sanping, head of the state film agency China Film, and Huang Jianxin, the movie blends the glorification of Communist China with strong, often sophisticated, drama. At one stage we see Mao teaching children to read the phrase "I am Chinese" and it could be a scene from a film from the 1950s. There are lots of policy debates and unadorned party politics, which makes for clunky viewing as characters outline the formation of endless committees.

But there are also moments of subtlety and what appear to be hidden political messages. In one telling scene, Mao arrives in Beijing, then known as Beiping, and is unable to find a shop to buy cigarettes. The shopkeepers have all fled in fear, and Mao makes a brief speech – as he cadges a ciggie from one of the Politburo – about how it's important not to chase out the capitalists or production will suffer. A sentiment familiar to a generation reared in New China, but hardly a doctrinaire Marxist-Leninist statement. Chiang Kai-shek, the Nationalist leader and Mao's archrival, is sensitively portrayed by Zhang Guoli, best known in China for playing emperors. He shows a troubled man who was a victim of his time, a lonely figure on the wrong side of history. The KMT are depicted as out-and-out gangsters, using Thompson machine guns to wipe out enemies, but there is no effort to demonise Chiang himself.

This may have a lot to do with the current thawing of relations with Taiwan. When Mao learns that Generalissimo Chiang has stepped down as president, his reaction is thoughtful, not exultant.

The prospect of the return of Taiwan to the fold is held out in the way the movie stresses the common bonds between the KMT and the Communists. Both came from the same Soviet-funded roots and were wartime allies against the Japanese.

Liu Jin as Zhou Enlai, the first prime minister of China, makes great use of Zhou's famous bushy eyebrows to show scepticism and concern. When the Communists finally succeeding in clearing the KMT from north of the Yangtze river, a crucial moment in the civil war, Zhou, Mao, Liu Shaoqi – later purged by Mao during the Cultural Revolution – and Mao's ever-loyal general Zhu De get rip-roaring drunk together and sing a Chinese version of the Communist "Internationale".

Some of the best moments are played by three of China's top directors, although, sadly, Hong Kong action king John Woo ended up on the cutting room floor. Chen Kaige, who directed Farewell, My Concubine, wields a rifle as a sympathetic KMT officer with considerable skill. Local favourite Feng Xiaogang plays a brilliant Du Yuesheng, an infamous Shanghai bandit prince, barrelling through the streets in a rickshaw, wearing round black sunglasses and escorted by a team of trilby-wearing mobsters.

Then there is the bad-boy of Chinese cinema, Jiang Wen, who was banned after Devils on the Doorstep for his sensitive portrayal of the Japanese.

Mr Jiang, playing the spymaster Mao Renfeng, sits in the back of a sinister black car in a KMT uniform, and orders the assassination of Zhang Lan, one of the founders of the China Democratic League, an opposition party later effectively subsumed into the Communist Party.

There is a hefty focus on the China Democratic League throughout the movie, and Mao mentions democracy on several occasions, even though the democrats played a relatively small role in the overall picture around the civil war. Is this an effort to portray the Communists as favouring democracy?

The budget was said to be only 30 million yuan, because the stars were offering their services at a special rate. The movie, which opens on 17 September, will appear on nearly half of China's 4,100 screens.

It ends on a predictably patriotic note, with a sea of red flags and messages about how a new China has been created. The question is how this vision of China really goes down with a web-savvy generation raised on mobile phones and capitalism with Chinese characteristics.

Movies with a message Cinematic propaganda around the world

*Commissioned by the USSR for the 20th anniversary of the 1905 revolution, Sergei Eisenstein's Battleship Potemkin is based on the mutiny that played a key role in the failed uprising. Now considered a classic, it was banned in Britain until 1954.

*The 1942 film Mrs Miniver – in which Greer Garson played the eponymous matriarch of a middle-class London family – went on to become a massive hit in both Britain and the United States. Detailing how the family coped during the Blitz, it even won praise from Goebbels, who described it as "an exemplary propaganda film for the German industry to copy". President Roosevelt said it hastened America's entry to the war.

*Triumph of the Will is arguably the world's most famous propaganda film. Leni Riefenstahl's masterful documentary of Hitler's 1934 Nuremberg rally tied her forever to the Nazi party. Before her death in 2003, aged 101, she continued to deny that she was ever a Nazi and claimed that her films were apolitical.

*The director of such classics as Mr Smith Goes to Washington and It's a Wonderful Life, Frank Capra also oversaw Why We Fight, a seven-part series of propaganda documentaries made for the US War Department. An army major at the time, Capra's aim was to lift the spirits and inspire patriotism in both civilians and the military.

*Burma's film industry is "protected" by a law that states all films must "consolidate national unity". That condition has led to such modern classics as 1997's We Will No Longer Be Slaves, and the 2007 hit My Sword, My Blood, My Irrawaddy.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 08 Sep 2009 18:18

If anyone wants to be a certified India-China wonk, the India-China-Institute is offering fellowships:

http://www.newschool.edu/ici/subpage.aspx?id=14582

sumeet_s · Post by **sumeet_s** » 09 Sep 2009 01:26

China bound UAE plane detained in INDIA, that too with arms consignment...its almost over a day now...and surprisingly we are not getting to hear anything from the edited...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Sep 2009 04:29

Recently the topic of Chinese funding Indian companies has come up. The issue relates to the fact that China is no longer interested in foreign investments - since she has a lot of funds. She, in turn has become an investor. (I would be very cautious using Chinese funds. They are not straight players.)

On renewable energy too, China has started investing a LOT within their country and has actually locked it down - slapping a huge tax on imports I am told.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Sep 2009 05:08

It was carrying missiles
Very suspicious.

“The UAE authorities both here and in Abu Dhabi have since formally regretted the omission in clearly indicating items carried by the aircraft and have described it as a ‘technical error’. They have also provided details about the cargo which consists of combat missile,” the Minister said in a statement.

He said that in light of this, the matter would be resolved in the spirit of the close and friendly ties between India and the UAE. “…we will facilitate early release of the aircraft.”

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Sep 2009 11:16

China in the last decade has made some dramatic progress in military modernisation across the entire spectrum of weapon systems.Its achievement has been spectacular.It no longer buys top end Russian eqpt. because,apart from reverse engineering these items without Russia's approval and paying for royalties,China has improved upon some of them thanks to its legendary industrial and military espionage network which operates in every country.In achieving this,China has acquired western technology stealthily from friends like Pak,who have provided it with Tomahawk cruise missiles (which landed in its territory,trying to hit Osama) and others.It is now self-sufficient in almost every kind of missile,AAMs,ASMs,anti-ship missiles,SLBMs,SSMs,etc,etc.The discovery that a UAE aircraft filled with military eqpt. was on its way to China indicates that China has another purveyor of western military secrets!

As for our dandy of an FM,and his reassuring remarks about the border being as peaceful as a baby's bottom,no wonder he cannot see any looming threat with China when he is safely and serenely esconced in 7* comfort in his suite at at the Maurya,running up a 3 month bill of 90 lakhs (probably costing far more than the renovations to his official residence),while his junior partner in the MEA,the ex-UN diplodocus ran up a smaller bill of only around 40 lakhs at the Taj! With the two ministerial worthies of the MEA conforming to perfect protocol in the fastidousness of their surroundings-one cannot have them staying in Western Court rubbing shoulders with fellow parliamentarians beneath them in protocol's pecking order,we are fortunate to be reassured that with them so well ensconced and well groomed,they will do their diplomatic duty with elan and elegance.On seeing Krishna's sartorial cut (and thrust we hope) and the equally elegant Tharoor in native attire,the Chinese diplomats will be definitely outdressed ,lose face and will realise their inferiority,sending their troops scuttling back across the border in disgrace!
What eminent diplomatic strategy from our MEA top mandarins.They could teach Chanakya,and the British MPs all combined a thing or two about "expenses"!

sumeet_s · Post by **sumeet_s** » 09 Sep 2009 11:20

@ Archan..
got it...wll not do it again..
thnx

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 09 Sep 2009 12:20

Suneet wrote:Returning to BRF after long time. I think I got my username wrong but was unable to change it in settings. moderators, sorry for the trouble, please change my username as applicable.

Requesting some good readings about history present and future...
Read the following about the Sino-India war 62

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/up ... 962war.htm

are the above descriptions accurate without ambiguities? It suggests that it was a situation mishandled by Nehru, who almost acted like a dictator and got played by west and got into the mess with china etc.....

I am seeking truth about Indian history,... as without knowing it, you can't really shape the future.

This has already been discussed in this thread. Such accounts are largely derived from a book published by a biased British author who was suffering from delusions of the Raj. Apparently this author thought that people with democratic ethos such as Nehru who played a pivotal role in a non-voilent freedom struggle were acting like a dictator; while as, actual dictators such as Mao and Cho-en-lai were acting like democratic peaceful leaders. Only when crows start to swim and pigs start to fly.

All that Nehru was trying to do was to assert India's natural boundries in the form of Himalayas and obviously that didn't go down well with an autocratic and expansionist China looking to undermine tibet.

sumeet_s · Post by **sumeet_s** » 09 Sep 2009 20:27

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 990900.cms
UAE plane gets nod to leave

An external affairs ministry statement on Tuesday said that the UAE authorities, both in New Delhi and Abu Dhabi, had formally regretted the omission of items carried by the aircraft and had described it as a 'technical error'.

How on earth the officials can call it as a technical error....its very hard to accept the UAE authorities stand that they forgot to mention that the plane was carrying Combat Missiles.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 09 Sep 2009 21:07

How on earth the officials can call it as a technical error....its very hard to accept the UAE authorities stand that they forgot to mention that the plane was carrying Combat Missiles.

True. And its likely some backroom deals were cut.

Think about it, if India's core interests weren't directly compromised with UAE's mijjile shipments, then a small press leak only helps build pressure to ensure some yindian interest somewhere in the UAE (and the lawd knows there're plenty there) will be humored bigtime..... think monitoring and control of terror financing and money laundering ops, think underwearld dons and terror doyens mysteriously disappearing to reappear in desi territory, the possibilities are quite amusing though w/o hard facts to back any 1 view, we're left to flounder and dream on.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 10 Sep 2009 05:57

Excellent article on China's Mil Moderation with Amrikhan POV

http://www.twq.com/08summer/docs/08summer_fravel.pdf

Hope this is not a re-post.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 10 Sep 2009 09:39

Hari Seldon wrote: True. And its likely some backroom deals were cut.

Agree. If any deal wasnt cut and the plane was let go after just an apology, I believe that was sheer stupidity.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 10 Sep 2009 13:14

Exclusive: China's lie on incursions exposed

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 10 Sep 2009 13:48

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?a=jj ... 39_s_Bluff

Column: Calling China's Bluff
...
By all indications, China is a paranoid nation. It is so apprehensive about economic competition from India that it allowed some of its firms to produce fake Indian drugs and label them 'Made in India' for export, especially to African countries.

Only a paranoid country transfers critical strategic assets like missiles and nuclear technology and wherewithal to another country in pursuit of its security and strategic ambitions. Pakistan and North Korea are two such nuclear proxies of China. The creation of third nuclear proxy state, Myanmar, appears to be imminent. There are analysts who maintain that 'Pakistan's nuclear programme' should correctly be called 'China's nuclear programme in Pakistan.'

China is so-ill reputed for its proliferation activities that one is compelled to believe that had it not been for its own problems in the Xinjiang region, it would have not hesitated to provide nuclear weapons or technology to the Taliban or the Al-Qaeda.

A delinquent country, which believes in proliferation, cannot aspire to be a respectable entity in the international arena.

China's internal situation is explosive not only in terms of the ethnic unrest in Xinjiang and Tibet, but in the Chinese hinterland, where there is a complete media blackout and no foreigners are allowed. If China is truly a great, unified and prosperous country, then why is it so opaque? Why does it block internet sites? Why does it gag the press, and fudge figures about its economy? Why the inability to manufacture world-class conventional weapons such as tanks, aircraft, destroyers and submarines?
...
Recently a Chinese strategic commentator suggested that China should balkanize India into 26 parts. The fact of the matter is that barring the border skirmish with newly independent India in 1962, China has been a humiliated empire, never winning any military engagement in its history.
...
The same strategic commentator who suggested that China should Balkanise India also noted that Hinduism cannot unify India. India is a pluralistic country, where all religions are practiced with complete freedom. It has therefore thrived as an adaptable and flexible civilization. It is the nations which try and rob religion from their people which eventually breakup. This explains the paranoia of the Chinese authorities with the spiritual movement 'Falun Gong'.
...
A global power must have a powerful navy with the force projection capability in at least two oceans. China is far from it. The superiority of the overall arms inventory of China vis-Ã -vis India is not reckoned to be anywhere near formidable when considered in qualitative and deployment terms.

For example, on paper the Chinese Navy inventory appears to be formidable. But more than 70 percent of it is of average or poor quality. The major chunk of the submarines belong to the Romeo class, whose endurance is limited and are only suitable for coastal defence.

What matters is the strength China can bring to bear against India. Its threat from east is rather precarious given the US direct and indirect presence in Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. That is the reason it is paranoid about the growing military assertiveness of Japan and is loathe to see a united Korea, even as North Koreans are enslaved and starved by hereditary dictators in the name of communism.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 10 Sep 2009 20:04

Chinese Military “Greatly Displeased” by Indian Media Campaign Against China
B.Raman, C3S Paper No.354 dated September 10, 2009

In a report under the heading “China Refutes Trespass Claims” carried on September 10,2009 , the “Global Times”, the English-language daily published by the Communist Party-owned “People’s Daily” group, has quoted a spokesperson of the Chinese Ministry of National Defence as saying that Chinese border patrols strictly abide by the relevant agreements on the Line of Actual Control (LAC) along the India-China border and have never carried out “provocative actions” towards India.

According to the paper, he said on September 9: “The recent reports by Indian media of intrusions are groundless and irresponsible.” The previous day, Jiang Yu, a spokesperson of the Chinese Foreign Ministry, had described the India reports of a Chinese troop intrusion into Indian territory near Mount Gya in the Ladakh region as “groundless and incorrect.”

2. The “Global Times” has quoted a source “close to the Chinese military” as saying as follows: ” “Indian media always quotes government officials as their sources, but the Chinese military has not received any protests from the Indian Ministry of Defense recently.” It further quotes the same source as saying that the reports have “greatly displeased” officials in the Chinese military.

3. The paper also quotes Ouyang Wei, a Chinese military expert from the University of National Defense, as claiming that the negative reports on China by Indian media far exceeded negative reports on India in the Chinese media. He described this as a very significant problem in the bilateral relations and added: “The Indian government should investigate the irresponsible reports, to find the sources of the fake news, and refute the rumors.”

4. Chinese non-governmental analysts have also been critical of the way sections of the Indian media sensationalised an incident involving the temporary detention of a plane of the UAE Air Force at Kolkata earlier this week for not correctly declaring that it was carrying a consignment of arms and ammunition and “combat missiles” to China. According to them, these arms and ammunition and missiles, which were manufactured in China, had been sent to Abu Dhabi for displaying in an international exhibition of military equipment and were being taken back to China after the exhibition was over. These analysts have expressed surprise over the manner in which the whole issue was sought to be sensationalised by sections of the Indian media as if it was a sinister development.

5. The same report of the “Global Times” cited above has stated on this incident as follows: ” Dai Xu, a renowned military expert, said that the actions by Indian authorities violated diplomatic rights as the cargo on board belong to China. “Any inspection onboard, which may have violated China’s property rights and constituted spying on its military secrets, should be approved by both the UAE and China,” Dai said.

An unnamed military source told the Global Times the UAE airplane was on a mission transporting Chinese arms from an arms expo in Abu Dhabi. “When the airplane stopped in Kolkata Sunday to refuel, the UAE crew member used the empty cargo certificate it used when it flew to China to carry the weapons at the beginning.”

6. My comment: While it is important for the media to report instances of alleged Chinese troop intrusions into Indian territory, it should take care at the same time not to create an anti-China frenzy, which may get out of control. One was disturbed by the way a national TV channel played up in a jingoistic manner the incident in the Ladakh sector in which a Chinese patrol was alleged to have intruded into Indian territory and painted on a stone “China”. Two acknowledged experts on China, who have an excellent knowledge of the Chinese language, appeared on the programme—- a reputed academic of Delhi and a retired China expert of the Government of India. One would have expected the anchor to ask them to translate for the viewers what was written on the stone and to comment on the implications of it. If he had done it, the entire jingoistic programme might have ended in a fizzle. He did not do so. Instead, most of the time, the viewers were subjected to an anti-China harangue by a retired Army officer. I myself do not know Chinese, but I am told by those who know Chinese that what was written on the stone was “Middle Yellow River”. It could also be translated as “Central Yellow River”.

7. “Middle” can also refer to China—-an allusion to the so-called Middle Kingdom. What should have been discussed at the very beginning of the programme was: Normally, detractors of China refer to it as suffering from the Middle Kingdom mentality. Would a Chinese Army soldier use it? Why the reference to the “Yellow River”? Where is this river? Instead of having a balanced debate on such questions, the anchor went bang, bang, bang against China without first ascertaining from the two Chinese experts what exactly was written in Chinese script on the stone, which was shown in a sinister manner to the viewers.

8. We have a very strong case against the Chinese on the border issue, which we should project in a non-sensational, non-jingoistic manner, but by indulging in such methods we might find our credibility weakened in the eyes of the international community.(10-9-09)

( The writer, Mr.B.Raman, is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai. He is also associated with the Chennai Centre For China Studies. E-mail: [email protected] )

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 10 Sep 2009 20:18

^^^^
.
My guess is, it's because of Amriki control of our media, if what is stated in the article, is true.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Sep 2009 21:52

well, ................ did the Chinese cross over and write whatever on a stone on the Indian side?

Does what they wrote matter at all?

suneels · Post by **suneels** » 10 Sep 2009 22:19

archan wrote:China bound UAE plane had large weapons cache, caught in Kolkata
Hmmm...two possibilities come to mind as first thoughts:

1) UAE wanted to send arms to Uighurs without PRC govt. knowing about it.
or
2) Arms were intended to be distributed among anti-India terrorists in J&K through a China channel.

Wonder if there could be another possibility. Anyone?

Sir,
Looking at the bigger picture:

1. A ship from PRC was intercepted and detained, in the Bay of Bengal. It was carrying sugar, but it could have been a nuke too.

2. Now an aircraft carrying missiles from the UAE has landed on Indian soil, and we have found out that the cargo was missiles meant for PRC. Again, the cargo could have been anything!

3. There have been several border violations, which everyone is aware of.

Is there a subtle message here saying "we can get you if we want to" ?

IMHO the Dragon only believes in a show of strength, but speaks in a forked tongue - "Yindi-Cheenee Bhai Bhai" dialogue...this was amply demonstrated in '62.

We need to get our act together asap, because we would be hard-pressed if there was an actual showdown.

Again this is IMHO, I am a poor sailor onlee.... only the Officer log can answer this...

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 11 Sep 2009 02:13

Stan_Savljevic wrote:
Just a few days back, UAE intercepted a N Korean ship carrying arms to Iran. And whats funny is
The diplomats said the Australian firm whose ship was seized is controlled by a French conglomerate and the actual export was arranged by the Shanghai office of an Italian company. The diplomats did not name any of the firms involved.
wheels within wheels....

reminds me of the movie "The International"

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 11 Sep 2009 02:20

India gets active on China’s Indian ocean bases

http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/ind ... 2449733828

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Sep 2009 05:57

RayC saab please tak e look

FREEDOM FIRST, September 2009
Are We Heading for a 1962 Repeat?
E. D’Souza
Numerous reports have been emerging in the print and electronic media of a possible repeat of 1962 by the PLA (People’s Liberation Army), objective Tawang in Arunachal Pradesh (AP/NEFA).
Bharat Verma, Editor of Defence Today in an article in his Journal states that it may be as early as October 2009(before the onset of the winter). Linked with the ambivalent Chinese posture it appears a possibility. Yet another China watcher confirms in his letter “The inflation noose”, this possibility is to divert the attention of the Chinese from the rising inflation in that country. So China may well head for Tawang. And to add credence to this deadline, a well known Sinologist of a reputed Think Tank quotes a Chinese writer from Beijing that the Chinese plan is to fragment India and hence the “String of Pearls” strategy. This assessment has not yet been refuted by the Beijing Mandarins! So what better take off point than the occupation of NEFA? These views have been prominently discussed in the Indian media; to which the three Service Chiefs have emphatically stated that the modernisation of the Armed Forces lags far behind that of China in every field including the Defence budget. The Naval Chief has bluntly stated that the PLAN (People’s Liberation Army Navy) is well ahead of the Indian Navy as was demonstrated at an imposing naval review showcasing the Chinese Blue Water Fleet, be it aircraft carriers, submarines or other surface warships.
This writer has been advocating that we need a far stronger blue water Navy to handle and counter the “String of Pearls” strategy with the growing Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean and Bay of Bengal littorals. The PLAN has already established its presence in Gwadar, Pakistan, Myanmar, the Coco Islands, and is making its presence felt in East Africa and Sri Lanka under the guise of economic aid. It has also shown increasing interest in Bangladesh and Nepal and its hand in assisting insurgents like the ULFA in the sensitive North East and even the Naxals, is known.
The aim of this article is to examine the possible threat to NEFA in the light if these developments. The views expressed are the author’s own, based on a recent unofficial visit to NEFA, and his assessment of the possibility of a 1962 type strike on Tawang to establish the Chinese claim on NEFA.
First it is essential to examine briefly, what happened in 1962. It must be recalled that the Henderson Brooks report has not yet been disclosed. The writer of this article belongs to the same Regiment, the Maratha Light Infantry and in fact took over as Colonel of the Regiment from him in 1969. The General was assisted by the late Lt.Gen. P. S. Bhagat, VC, another distinguished soldier, alas both of them are no more. One fails to understand the rationale behind the government’s reluctance to release the report when every other country does so in such cases. Do we not realise that by doing so we shall learn from earlier mistakes? Be that as it may we were lulled into complacency by the Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai syndrome so assiduously advocated by Chou En Lai the then Chinese Premier. The sad part of it is that both Pandit Nehru and Krishna Menon were lulled into complacency. The late Lt.Gen. S. P. P. Thorat, then our Eastern Army Commander in Lucknow, warned Panditji of the very realistic Chinese threat in NEFA but his advice was ignored. We were totally unprepared under the mistaken illusion that the Chinese would not attack. Thanks to the advice of the late Lt Gen Bijji Kaul who politicised the Army, the troops were hopelessly ill equipped and armed to fight in high altitudes, given outrageous orders to hold indefensible positions dominated by the PLA under the mistaken notion that not a single inch of Indian territory would be allowed to fall, totally impractical tactically as brought out by the late Brig. John Dalvi the forwardmost Brigade Commander, in his book ‘Himalayan Blunder’, resulting in his capture, opening up the advance of the Chinese into NEFA, and perhaps the biggest omission of all was not to invoke the IAF to attack the advancing Chinese columns along the jungle hill tracts. The rest is history. It is a well known fact that the Chinese won over the locals to act as guides and porters on monetary inducements, as this part of the country was never developed. Have we now learnt our lesson?
The writer last visited NEFA in the early 70s while still in service. He recalls the long tortuous drive from Tezpur to Tenga on an apology of a strategic road, the main Line of Communications with Tawang and beyond via Bomdila and Se La. There is a sea change today with a tarmac road well maintained by the Border Roads with emergency facilities like earthmovers and bridging to clear landslides and road blocks during inclement weather. What is equally encouraging is the fact that along the four hours drive over two passes to Tenga, Rest Rooms have been set up. Good accommodation has been provided for troops and even their families with all facilities including shopping malls for daily requirements and even Army Schools. This indicates the quiet confidence the Army has of permitting families of all ranks to such locations. It also sends a strong visible message to the civil populace, of quiet confidence. What is equally remarkable that this writer observed was indicative of the strong secular values in the Army – along a stretch of road in the Tenga Valley stands a Masjid, Gurudwara, Mandir and a Chapel, all maintained by the Formation. At no stage during this visit did the writer even get a hint of lack of confidence or preparedness to meet the oft-repeated Chinese claims on NEFA.
What is of importance are the steps taken to improve our preparedness posture. The wisest step taken by the government was to appoint an ex-Army Chief as the Governor. Not many know that he had earlier served in this sector as a Lt.Col. He happens to belong to the same Regiment as this writer. In my conversations with him he mentioned the steps being taken to improve the infrastructure in this neglected State – internal communications, power generation using the high hydel potential, exploitation of the vast forest resources, and most importantly education. Not many readers may know that from far off Itanagar in Arunachal Pradesh, he undertook a trip to Pune to recruit teachers for the schools proposed to be opened. This was evident in the number of schools seen in Bomdila, including a public school. By focussing on the improvement of the lot of the State’s populace, the chances of doing a repeat should the Chinese attempt to occupy Tawang with local help as in 1962 will be diminished.
On the deployment side one has read in the media that an additional division has been inducted to plug a possible approach which means we have three divisions in front, and one in depth with the dual role of counter insurgency. One has also read that a Sukhoi Squadron has been induced into Tezpur and forward helipads developed for quick reaction. Interestingly there is a regular helicopter service from Guwahati/Tezpur to Tawang for civilians visiting the famous monastery there. Arrangements for road movement on these mountain roads for commuting and carriage of stores are also now in place and readily manifest in bustling Bomdila. That feeling of neglect as in the past is now being eliminated.
The forces deployed in this sector, north of the Brahmaputra including Assam and Arunachal Pradesh are controlled from a well established HQ in Tezpur where this writer noticed a spirit of quiet confidence and efficiency when he called on the Corps Commander. Noticeably, there was no sign of tension. The writer, enroute from Tenga to Tezpur happened to meet two of the forward brigade commanders, both from his Regiment, at a road block under clearance and in the few minutes he interacted with them there was absolutely no signs of tension, just quiet confidence, though both were in eyeball to eyeball confrontation with PLA troops. If only our Babudom accelerated the acquisition, issue and induction of more modern equipment, the doubts on preparedness expressed by the Naval Chief in his press interview, the situation would be vastly better. Be that as it may let there be no doubts that our men showed no indication of low morale; in fact this was one aspect that struck this old soldier – high morale and top physical fitness. What then do we need to do to ensure stability in this wild, mountainous and sparsely populated country? There are a number of steps.
Firstly the improvement of infrastructural facilities should be on-going, especially road communications, helipads, opening up the interior, education et al. Thanks to foresight, the appointment of an ex-COAS as the Governor will ensure better civil/military relations, and this is evident. A reassessment needs to be made of the handling of insurgency especially along the north bank of the Brahmaputra. The Army should be relieved of this commitment and a Rashtriya Rifles Counter Insurgency force as in J & K be raised. This threat cannot be wished away as the main lines of communication run through these areas. Forward stocking consonant with the operational requirements should be ensured at all times because of the delays imposed by the nature of the terrain and the weather. This should apply to the civil as well.
The intelligence apparatus should be stepped up to give early warning of any possible Chinese intrusions and for this both the locals and the Tibetan diaspora should be involved. There should no question in invoking our Air Force for interdiction on the axis from Tibet into NEFA. Likewise, our external intelligence agencies should be alerted in Myanmar, Bhutan, Nepal and Bangladesh.
A Chief of Defence Staff should be appointed without any further delay. An integrated Defence HQ is already in place, Bureaucratic ‘izzat’ notwithstanding and a greater involvement of the Armed Forces in defence planning at the highest level, should begin NOW. Based on all available inputs we need to act now and not be caught offguard as we were in 1962.
We have lead time to get our act right. With winter approaching will China launch an assault from Tibet to take Tawang given the lie of the terrain, the approaching winter, restricted road communications and India’s defence posture, to do so in two to three months? We need to improve our defence posture and make it difficult for China to venture on such a move in the foreseeable future which means that it will have to wait for the next campaigning season in 2010. We need to utilise this time to improve our defences, communications, intelligence acquisition and updating our equipment with high tech weapons suitable for mountain and high altitude warfare.
We now learn of a major counter terrorism exercise with troops involving 300 US Special Forces and India’s Armoured Division to be held in Jhansi. This is a move in the right direction to improve and signal our growing relations with the USA and the possibility of arms purchases of high tech equipment under the new protocol.
Finally, we should not hesitate to invoke air power to impede any such move.
One can end on a slightly optimistic note in stating that so far as our manpower is concerned and the quiet confidence of our Officers and men, given the tools, our response will be good.

MAJOR GENERAL (RETD) E. D’SOUZA, PVSM, Polish Army Gold Medal, is a frequent contributor to Freedom First.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 11 Sep 2009 07:22

shravan wrote:Chinese Military “Greatly Displeased” by Indian Media Campaign Against China
B.Raman, C3S Paper No.354 dated September 10, 2009

In a report under the heading “China Refutes Trespass Claims” carried on September 10,2009 , the “Global Times”, the English-language daily published by the Communist Party-owned “People’s Daily” group, has quoted a spokesperson of the Chinese Ministry of National Defence as saying that Chinese border patrols strictly abide by the relevant agreements on the Line of Actual Control (LAC) along the India-China border and have never carried out “provocative actions” towards India.
{ He is saying like as if all the Chinese are the children and grand children of satya harischandra}

According to the paper, he said on September 9: “The recent reports by Indian media of intrusions are groundless and irresponsible.” The previous day, Jiang Yu, a spokesperson of the Chinese Foreign Ministry, had described the India reports of a Chinese troop intrusion into Indian territory near Mount Gya in the Ladakh region as “groundless and incorrect.”
{The citizens of India living on the border them self confirmed it.Instead of taking proper action on these intrusions,this is highly rhetoric condemning media}

2. The “Global Times” has quoted a source “close to the Chinese military” as saying as follows: ” “Indian media always quotes government officials as their sources, but the Chinese military has not received any protests from the Indian Ministry of Defense recently.” It further quotes the same source as saying that the reports have “greatly displeased” officials in the Chinese military.{Chinese military is a bunch of goons and liars.How do you expect them speaking truth?They actually wanted to go with a surprise attack as like it happened in 62.Since the media is alerting the dumb babus ,they are changing the game plan}

3. The paper also quotes Ouyang Wei, a Chinese military expert from the University of National Defense, as claiming that the negative reports on China by Indian media far exceeded negative reports on India in the Chinese media. He described this as a very significant problem in the bilateral relations and added: “The Indian government should investigate the irresponsible reports, to find the sources of the fake news, and refute the rumors.”{ Did the Chinese officials condemned the report made by a huzhu weibo analyst who is willing to see India broken into pieces? Instead they said that they prefer free media and let every one express themself.Why not consider the Indian media similarly?
Moreover if a countries past history is notable and is good then no one does really care about.But these chines attacked India when we considered them as bhai bhai.And how can you expect them being friendly when the relations are even highly volatile?}

4. Chinese non-governmental analysts have also been critical of the way sections of the Indian media sensationalised an incident involving the temporary detention of a plane of the UAE Air Force at Kolkata earlier this week for not correctly declaring that it was carrying a consignment of arms and ammunition and “combat missiles” to China. According to them, these arms and ammunition and missiles, which were manufactured in China, had been sent to Abu Dhabi for displaying in an international exhibition of military equipment and were being taken back to China after the exhibition was over. These analysts have expressed surprise over the manner in which the whole issue was sought to be sensationalised by sections of the Indian media as if it was a sinister development.{ Firstly it is the mistake of the UAE crew who failed to respond in a constructive manner.They only responded after the customs officials started checking and found the cache of weapons.they behaved like as if they are smuggling weapons.And when they were being caught they realized to show the proper documents? I hope you are not saying this to any kid going to Montessori.}

5. The same report of the “Global Times” cited above has stated on this incident as follows: ” Dai Xu, a renowned military expert, said that the actions by Indian authorities violated diplomatic rights as the cargo on board belong to China. “Any inspection onboard, which may have violated China’s property rights and constituted spying on its military secrets, should be approved by both the UAE and China,” Dai said.{ Well....according to Indian norms no international plane is supossed to be carrying any weapons being it conventional or WMD no matter what.Untill the customs figured out that there were weapons on board, no one expressed it.Who knows if the same plane is carrying WMD`s? Only a proper searching procedure will make sure no WMD`s were being carried over Indian territory }

An unnamed military source told the Global Times the UAE airplane was on a mission transporting Chinese arms from an arms expo in Abu Dhabi. “When the airplane stopped in Kolkata Sunday to refuel, the UAE crew member used the empty cargo certificate it used when it flew to China to carry the weapons at the beginning.”{Again.Its not the fault of India.Its the fault of the crew onboard the plane}

6. My comment: While it is important for the media to report instances of alleged Chinese troop intrusions into Indian territory, it should take care at the same time not to create an anti-China frenzy, which may get out of control. One was disturbed by the way a national TV channel played up in a jingoistic manner the incident in the Ladakh sector in which a Chinese patrol was alleged to have intruded into Indian territory and painted on a stone “China”. Two acknowledged experts on China, who have an excellent knowledge of the Chinese language, appeared on the programme—- a reputed academic of Delhi and a retired China expert of the Government of India. One would have expected the anchor to ask them to translate for the viewers what was written on the stone and to comment on the implications of it. If he had done it, the entire jingoistic programme might have ended in a fizzle. He did not do so. Instead, most of the time, the viewers were subjected to an anti-China harangue by a retired Army officer. I myself do not know Chinese, but I am told by those who know Chinese that what was written on the stone was “Middle Yellow River”. It could also be translated as “Central Yellow River”.{IMHO.Indian media is neither creating any sensationalism nor Anti-china frenzy.
It is onleeee alerting the 1.16 billion citizens of India to hide in safe citadels.China may attack as like it did in 62 with no provocation.and it may repeat the same while considering the geo-political approach it is following by arming Indian neighbours starting from Pakistan,Srilanka,Bangladesh,Myanmar,Nepal,NE militants,..... Any idiot with even a one ounce of brain can think more effectively what China is upto. In this case I appreciate and welcome the media approach in disturbing the Kumbhakarna sleep of Indian leaders. }
7. “Middle” can also refer to China—-an allusion to the so-called Middle Kingdom. What should have been discussed at the very beginning of the programme was: Normally, detractors of China refer to it as suffering from the Middle Kingdom mentality. Would a Chinese Army soldier use it? Why the reference to the “Yellow River”? Where is this river? Instead of having a balanced debate on such questions, the anchor went bang, bang, bang against China without first ascertaining from the two Chinese experts what exactly was written in Chinese script on the stone, which was shown in a sinister manner to the viewers.
{It clearly represents that THE Chinese intruded.period whatever they wrote is a different story you dumbo}
8. We have a very strong case against the Chinese on the border issue, which we should project in a non-sensational, non-jingoistic manner, but by indulging in such methods we might find our credibility weakened in the eyes of the international community.(10-9-09){ It is unfortunate that a retd secretary forgetting a centuries old saying. "Know Thy Neighbour" We knew how good our neighbours are.All this hush bush is to wake up the ruling party before India cedes the whole of Arunachal Pradesh or remaining kashmir or sikkim to china during their next aggression.}

( I apologize for the bold characters )

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 11 Sep 2009 07:30

Valid points, jaladipc.

However, kindly remember you're critiquing an article by the venerated Sri Bahukutumbi Raman garu. No easy task and one has to walk on eggshells to even contemplate such a move, IMVVHO, from past experience. You don't wanna get BR branded as a right-wing/desi neocon/hindutwawadee mob, do you?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Sep 2009 08:06

Sorry to say - Raman Sir is not keeping up his reputation. I have come across the term "middle yellow river" in grain size analysis and archaeological controversies myriad times - and it is surprising that he didn't.

According to the 40's and 50's archaeological "wisdom" and the Sinified Marxism, it was the plains around the "middle Yellow River" where Chinese civilization coalesced around the middle of the 2nd millennium B.C.E., during the so-called Shang dynasty. The huge archaeological and textual remains from the Shang claims an elite with an extravagant court culture ruling over masses of millet and wheat farmers—the grains for a cool and dry north. They boast of frequent conquests, and advanced weaponry such as horse-drawn chariots and claims to have taken many prisoners and slaves from conquered regions. They also practiced human and animal sacrifice, worshipped a supreme god who dominated the forces of nature, also had ancestor-worship, who were seen as active participants in family life.

Even though modern archaeological searches are providing alternative, multiregional and much more complex interactive scenarios for the origin of "Chinese civilization", the "Shang" centralized - military - "empire" based on legends of expansion, conquest and enslavement was the basis of Marxist Chinese nationalism. This idea is more likely for members of the PLA, rather than modern Chinese civilians.

The hint is quite clear if the characters do indeed represent "middle yellow river". They are threatening Shang-style conquest and enslavement.

I would have expected a bit more homework from such an eminent expert before sarcastically chastizing "jingoism".

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 11 Sep 2009 09:33

Chinese have taken very concrete steps in opposing India such as opposing India at NSG during the nuclear deal time and then blocking funds for Arunnachal Pradesh. Their role in propping up Pakistan is very well known. Their role in preventing action on some Pakistan terror outfits is known. Their reaction after the Mumbai attacks is known.

So, regardless of whether there was border intrusion or not, there is sufficient reason for Indian media to paint them as villians. It is not like their media is full of positive stories on India.

Not sure why B Raman writes like this. During Olympics, he was so concerned about terror in China. Seems like they had invited him to China to present his views on terror and stuff.

Frankly speaking, why should India bother unless they reciprocate. Their stand on Pakistan inspired terrror on India is known. Not sure why B Raman talks like this.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 11 Sep 2009 09:39

csharma wrote:
Not sure why B Raman writes like this. During Olympics, he was so concerned about terror in China. Seems like they had invited him to China to present his views on terror and stuff.

This is to please them and still keep the contact inside their country.
Very important to maintain the contacts

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 11 Sep 2009 09:53

B. Raman's articles sound more and more like collection of news items with sequence number rather than the analysis which one would expect from ex-spy and that too a senior member. Where is the analysis on the plane carrying missiles or incursion by chinese in Ladakh.
I can read Chindu+TOIlet to get all this information.
Folks on BRF are way - way ahead in understanding the Chinese and their moves.

It further quotes the same source as saying that the reports have “greatly displeased” officials in the Chinese military.

Should we cower in our dhotis or send PK to Beijing to molify the displeased PLA ?.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 11 Sep 2009 10:08

Raman is basically saying : Do not whip up war hysteria (a la 1962?). Let the Army and GoI take decisions without the public going up-down-up-down energiser bunny style.