The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 04 Sep 2009 20:03

chiru wrote:
PAK-FA to fire dispensable jamming pods in place of chaff
this looks totally TFTA

Is someone trying to talk about towed decoys ? Dispensable jamming pods is hardly practically feasible since good ECM equipment is very costly. Add to that you will have to put in fuel & propulsion system for loitering. Plus why would one want to waste space in internal bay of PAK-FA ?

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Sep 2009 20:35

Stealth : on how to achieve it

The F-22's contoured shape achieves the majority of the desired radar cross-section objective. In addition, the F-22 also has numerous layers of coatings applied to the aircraft skin.

"The initial requirements were for three layers of coating to be stacked together in the following order," "The first coating is a primer designed to smooth and seal the surface of the skin and promote adhesion of the conductive coating.

"The second is a conductive coating consisting of silver flakes mixed with polyurethane materials and intended to conduct, dissipate and reflect the radar waves away. The third is the topcoat, which has other metallic materials and infrared properties to reduce heat and thus radar detection. In addition, other coatings such as [radar absorbent materials], gap fillers, and adhesives were applied on various specific areas of the aircraft."

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Sep 2009 20:43

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... eform.html

EVOLVING NEW GEN STEALTH

author Stephen Trimble

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 08 Sep 2009 01:55

As per wikipedia, ADA has consulted Mig and Mikoyan LMFS and MCA will be developed out of that collaboration.

Wikipedia page states that Mikoyan LMFS will be 30% lighter than PAK FA.

May be India and Russia is working on lighter 5th gen fighter on the lines of F-35.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_LMFS

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 08 Sep 2009 04:24

kit wrote:http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... eform.html

EVOLVING NEW GEN STEALTH

author Stephen Trimble

Nothing extra-ordinary in that article except for the last paragraph which is quite scary.
Avram

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Sep 2009 04:46

More recently, a joint team of researchers at Duke University and the Southeast University of Nanjing unveiled a composite material whose properties are invisible to certain microwave bands, which is the first step in developing a structure capable of cloaking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_University

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 08 Sep 2009 13:38

Acharya wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_University

Sorry Acharyaji, I don't understand. What does link add to the discussion?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Sep 2009 08:58

Ilya Fedorov on 5th Gen Engine ( via keypubs)

MAKS 09 5th Gen Ladies Shape , Stealth , Engine All seems 5th Gen

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Sep 2009 12:43

NRao wrote:Saheb,

It is/was my impression that the MKI is some 2 tons larger than the source it came from. Genes are the same, but some of them are much larger. Which is why (now) I am more interested in the work-share agreement - what is shared and what is not should provide a jhalak?

What says you - as an expert?

It is , so is the MKK and other derived fighter , you can add weight as long as your structure permits by going for higher thrust engine and/or use of lighter materials.

The Su-34 has a MTOW of ~ 45T , compared to ~ 38.5 for MKI/MKK

As far as work share , some time back HAL chairman mentioned materials , avionic and weapons

Although 30 % by weight is the limit for PAK-FA as far as composites go , but expect twin seater FGFA to go higher , if not with TD then with production models , they should atleast aim for ~ 50 % composites on FGFA considering they managed to get ~ 45 % with Tejas which is an amazing feat.

Work share is 50 - 50 for FGFA as declared , while for PAK-FA expect it to be 100 % Russian.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Sep 2009 18:54

Austin,

We have to remember, specially when we do such comparisonS, that the MKI was "redesigned" - may I add intentionally - in the mid-90s. I do not recall details (some I am sure I am not even aware of) of structures/engines/MTOW/etc, but I do recall that even some within Sukhoi would giggle at the idea of what India was proposing - later to be called the "MKI". (There were some in India that laughed.)

I would argue that the Su-34 came into being, to a very great extent, because of the efforts funded for the MKI.

That today IF we do make/accpet statements of Su's weight lightly, it was because of the MKI. ?????????????

(And, I do thank Yeltsin monthly - perhaps I should do so weekly.)

OK. Now on to the FGFA. Just need some clarifications if possible.

For my sanity, what is the story here? For sure PAK-FA != FGFA? Or if the FGFA a two-seater PAK-FA (with some structural differences)? Will the two share some structures (I guess they will)? Avionics seem to be totally different? Missiles I would think they will share, perhaps India requesting inclusion of Israeli missiles. What else? Just trying to get a picture of teh two before they reveal the details. Understand that some comments will be extrapolation.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Sep 2009 21:45

According to Yefim Gordon in his book on Su-27 series , The Su-34 ( Su-27IB ) made its first flight on 13th April 1990 at the hands of merited test pilot Anatoliy Ivanov the first prototype went by designation T10V-1 and was officially unveiled on 13th Feb 1992.

So the argument that Su-34 came into being due to MKI is not true as within flanker series the Su-34 holds a very special place as new generation Tactical Fighter Bomber something that she remains unmatched even by her new cousin the Su-35.

The MKI was a sucessful experiment of custom building the Flanker to individual airforce requirement with system integration of multiple 3rd party components , hence the success of MKM , MKA , MKK ,MK2/V2 can be attributed to MKI success in the IAF , which make the other AF fairly confident that Sukhoi can deliver on its promise.

I am fairly certain that FGFA will be nothing but twin seater PAK-FA , with Indian specific avionics/sensor suite , weapons system and much higher percentage of composites , I see no reason why IAF has any need to reinvent the wheel , with the success of twin seater Flanker in IAF service.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Sep 2009 22:16

OK. Thx.

Now, what do you know about the MiG "FGFA" (single engine) stuff that the ADA is supposedly interested in or working with? Or are we fishing?

munna · Post by **munna** » 10 Sep 2009 22:35

^^ It it possible for India-Russia to make another mistake on calculation of Gorshkov refit and India paying up some more stash loads of bucks to miraculously produce a Flatpack variant as MCA later down the road???

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Sep 2009 00:44

"possible". Sure. Probable? I think not. The PAK-FA is a Sukhoi project and the IAF/DRDO/ADA/whatever has worked for ages dealing with the MKI. And, although some slippage is understandable - in the heat of getting the PAK-FA out - I have to doubt it would be a recreation of the Adm. I really doubt it will be even close to it. After all India does have some control in this case, which it did not have with the Gorky.

Let us see. it is just a few months away.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 11 Sep 2009 01:15

NRao wrote:"possible". Sure. Probable? I think not. The PAK-FA is a Sukhoi project and the IAF/DRDO/ADA/whatever has worked for ages dealing with the MKI. And, although some slippage is understandable - in the heat of getting the PAK-FA out - I have to doubt it would be a recreation of the Adm. I really doubt it will be even close to it. After all India does have some control in this case, which it did not have with the Gorky.

Let us see. it is just a few months away.

Sir I believe munna is trying to say that the chanakiyan yindoos would send paisa to russkies under pretence of Adm Gorky refit cost overrun and instead get some design work/tech asst with MCA (if we still plan on building it or some other tech asst like on Arihant) therefore pasia wasool and dirt in pork momo's eyes

Munna is trying to suggest that Grorky was just a front to legitimately transffer funds to Russkies for under the table deals such as tech trans and design work...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Sep 2009 01:22

Ah.

Will check my age. getting up there.

munna · Post by **munna** » 11 Sep 2009 01:24

NRao wrote:"possible". Sure. Probable? I think not. The PAK-FA is a Sukhoi project and the IAF/DRDO/ADA/whatever has worked for ages dealing with the MKI. And, although some slippage is understandable - in the heat of getting the PAK-FA out - I have to doubt it would be a recreation of the Adm. I really doubt it will be even close to it. After all India does have some control in this case, which it did not have with the Gorky.

Let us see. it is just a few months away.

Actually I am merely being greedy and wondering if we can have M.C.A == (Mig MFI/1.44) too along side the FGFA by buying some additional panch hajaaar Tee-Nabbey tanks.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 11 Sep 2009 01:27

NRao wrote:Ah.

Will check my age. getting up there.

haha
Saar, goes with 1970's BROldie title nahin?
chai biskoot saar?

munna wrote:
NRao wrote:"possible". Sure. Probable? I think not. The PAK-FA is a Sukhoi project and the IAF/DRDO/ADA/whatever has worked for ages dealing with the MKI. And, although some slippage is understandable - in the heat of getting the PAK-FA out - I have to doubt it would be a recreation of the Adm. I really doubt it will be even close to it. After all India does have some control in this case, which it did not have with the Gorky.

Let us see. it is just a few months away.
Actually I am merely being greedy and wondering if we can have M.C.A == (Mig MFI/1.44) too along side the FGFA by buying some additional panch hajaaar Tee-Nabbey tanks.

You know I have been thinking the same thing, maybe Gorky is just a front...hence no legal action again the Ruskies for breach of contract...maybe Akulas and god knows what else is built into the price escalations
Our own version of black projects if you may

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 11 Sep 2009 04:43

NRao wrote:
Now, what do you know about the MiG "FGFA" (single engine) stuff that the ADA is supposedly interested in or working with? Or are we fishing?

Some people here appear to be fishing about the MiG FGFA, nothing more nothing less. If there is some co-operation in regards to the MCA, then this is not the thread for the same. Thanks.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 11 Sep 2009 09:57

Austin wrote:What is the T/W ratio of 117S engine , any information on the planned T/W ratio of 5th Gen Engine for the PAK-FA ie AL-41F1 ?

As per Viktor Chepkin's interview from 2007 he has a vision of T/W ratio for 5th gen engine to be = 11.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 14 Sep 2009 00:51

An interesting article on NIIP's L-Band AESA radar

Why has the L-band been so popular? With operating wavelengths of the order of 6 to 12 inches, it permits good long range search performance with modestly sized antennas, while providing excellent weather penetration, and reasonably well behaved ground clutter environments compared to shorter wavelength bands. In airborne radar applications, L-band offers an additional economy, as a single L-band design can combine conventional primary radar functions with secondary IFF/SSR functions, thus saving considerable antenna and transmitter/receiver hardware weight, cooling and volume. The latter are alone sufficient reasons to employ this otherwise heavily congested band.

NPP Pulsar, who developed the RF transistor technology used in the radar's TR modules, and the quad TR module design, described the design as intended for “IFF, international SSR and search radar functions”.

Critics who might choose to dismiss the importance of the Tikhomirov NIIP L-band AESA should carefully consider the very significant performance and growth potential of such designs even in the short 2010 - 2015 timescale. NPP Pulsar have been very active in Gallium Nitride technology with numerous publications in Western research journals and conferences.

And, these are the websites of NPP Pulsar:
#1 Site 1
#2 Site 2

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Sep 2009 07:22

JaiS wrote:As per Viktor Chepkin's interview from 2007 he has a vision of T/W ratio for 5th gen engine to be = 11.

Nice find , Thanks
Considering the current generation of engine ( AL-31F - 117S ) delivers a T/W ratio of any where between ~ 8 - 9, a T/W ratio of ~ 11 is a very tall order to achieve and if done will be a fantastic achievement.

In field of AESA the work on Ga/N T/R module is significant , to just sum it up based on Sumeet post on the advantage/benefit of Ga/N over Ga/A T/R module

1 ) T/R Module power can potentially go up by 1 or 2 orders with wide bandgap GaN and SiC MMIC.
2 ) An existing AESA's GaAs T/R modules can be replaced with GaN or SiC T/R modules having 10 times the power.
3 ) Then you have either a 10 times improvement in search volume or a 78% increase in track range.
4 ) High energy band gap of GaN will help disadvantages GaAs face in areas like high supply currents, medium power per mm gate length, thermal expense to prevent hot spots.
5 ) GaN transistors can operate at 8 to 10 times the power densities of GaAs.
6 ) Use of higher bias voltages, and optimised thermal behavior.
7 ) Because of material's high impedance one can have smaller input/output matching networks and related losses on the amplifier chip.
8 )Increased input power level capability.
9 )Reception amplifier can face high power electromagnetic aggression due to power handling capability of GaN.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Oct 2009 04:39

No news for too long:

Russia's T-50 nears flight test

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 04 Oct 2009 06:59

Russia's T-50 nears flight test

Zelin confirmed that the second prototype, assembled at Sukhoi's Knaapo facility in Komsomolsk-on-Amur has been delivered to Moscow and started static tests.
The flight prototype is scheduled to roll-out in November

I dont know if i may sound daft/naive (i'm new to military stuff, always liked it but never really got INTO it till i went to Yelahanka)
but here goes, Any chance of this showing-up at Aero India 2011 ?

Tried to search for its Prototype photos i see a lot of different looking ones, which is its actual prototype photo or non have been revealed yet ?

I found these, they look incredible but wayy too sexy to be true or is it ?
http://www.duler.ru/CONTENT/pic/industr ... _pic_2.jpg

vijyeta · Post by **vijyeta** » 04 Oct 2009 07:19

Raveen wrote: Our own version of black projects if you may

Shank Works

(Hail Shankarosky

)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Oct 2009 07:36

Vishal,

That is NOT a PAK-FA. It is the Indian FGFA.

It has the capability to change colors: http://www.duler.ru/CONTENT/pic/industr ... _pic_4.jpg

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Oct 2009 10:22

Damn sexy pic ! looks way better than Raptor wonder what it ll be named .. no rambha..this is kali goddess of destruction in all her beauty

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 05 Oct 2009 18:27

NRao wrote:It has the capability to change colors: http://www.duler.ru/CONTENT/pic/industr ... _pic_4.jpg

What ???? How ?

Btw, its a forward-swept wing design ?
here are the remaining (concept) pictures

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 05 Oct 2009 18:40

Vishal Jolapara wrote:
NRao wrote:It has the capability to change colors: http://www.duler.ru/CONTENT/pic/industr ... _pic_4.jpg
What ???? How ?

Btw, its a forward-swept wing design ?
here are the remaining (concept) pictures

i think it is just artistic impression....!!!

I had analysed one of the picture..the one which is not delta wing design...but that was not even symmetrical...about its longitudinal axis...So I think design is just a hype...!!!

Real one would certainly be different...!!!

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 05 Oct 2009 20:40

Vishal Jolapara wrote:
NRao wrote:It has the capability to change colors: http://www.duler.ru/CONTENT/pic/industr ... _pic_4.jpg
What ???? How ?

Btw, its a forward-swept wing design ?
here are the remaining (concept) pictures

It is a CGI that will end up not even resembling the actual A/C. For starters, the CGI is a reverse swept wing, which we know the T-50 and it's derivative FGFA will not be. Let's stop fantacizing about CGI and talk about what we know instead.

David Saenz · Post by **David Saenz** » 06 Oct 2009 01:06

Some already known info, from Defense Technology International Oct09 issue
(X-posted from keypubs. Credits to Rajan)

The two seat version of T-50 named as T-50UB (combat trainer). This will be a joint development project with India (HAL). The Sukhoi and HAL will develop this fighter in a parity basis. Now that has defined requirements for its version, several joint working groups have been set up, and Sukhoi and HAL discussing the degree of Indian involvement in the project!

Unlike the other Russian AESA radar- the Zhuk-AE developed by Phazotron-NIIR for the Mig-35, the T/R modules are hidden inside the Array................NIIP did not disclose the benefit of concealing the TR modules within the array or Radar performance.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 06 Oct 2009 12:16

Another nice real looking PS pic

Source

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Oct 2009 23:42

Austin wrote:India Will Be an Equal Partner in All Aspects of the FGFA: HAL Chairman

I would not like to comment on Mr Pogosyan’s statement and you may take it as the current status. The IAF technical requirements for the FGFA have just been finalised and they are being passed on to the Russians. These technical requirements will include what is needed for a single and a twin seat version and so on. After the technical requirements have been given to them, the technical aspects between the two sides will be discussed in detail. The Indian version obviously cannot be very different from the Russian version. Certain modifications according to the technical requirements will be incorporated in the Indian version and these have already been discussed in detail between HAL and IAF. This then, is the starting point. As you know, it takes a few years between the prototype flight and the acceptance of an aircraft, this time will be utilised between Russia and India to work closely on the Indian version. I can say that metaphorically speaking, India has taken its first step for the fifth generation aircraft. I would also like to dispel a prevalent notion that while India will pay 50 per cent of the money, it may just get about 10 per cent of the work-share. This will not happen. India will be an equal partner in all aspects in the FGFA.

adel ansari · Post by **adel ansari** » 15 Oct 2009 16:31

India- Russia to launch fifth generation fighter jet, heavy Lift Helicopters, Armoured Vehicles..

Just saw this article .. Apologies.. if posted already...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 127502.cms

Source: Economic Times.

MOSCOW: India and Russia will launch the joint fifth generation fighters by year end and have agreed to collaborate to develop heavy lift cargo helicopters and futuristic infantry combat vehicles.
The path for more hi-tech defence collaboration between Moscow and New Delhi was paved with the signing of the joint defence protocol by Defence Minister AK Antony and his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov.

The protocol extends military interaction between the two countries till 2020 and this is expected to make the path clear for inking more major defence joint ventures during the upcoming visit of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in early December.

The protocol was signed here at the end of 9th session of India-Russia Intergovernmental Commission on military-technical cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) after assurances from Moscow that all pending issues like the delivery of aircraft carrier Gorshkov and nuclear submarine Nerpa would be resolved at the earliest.

The protocol provides for completion of formalities by the year end to launch the joint designing, development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft project.

Besides the development of a state-of-the-art multi-role transport aircraft (MTA) through a joint venture along the lines of highly successful BrahMos JV, India and Russia have also agreed to jointly develop a heavy lift cargo helicopter and futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle (ICV).

A joint statement released after the meeting said that India and Russia will collaborate in up-gradation of IAF's main strike fighter Su-30MKI, the older Mig-27 and T-72M1 battle tanks.

It said that the two sides had also worked out the production in India of Main Battle Tanks (MBT) T-90S with full technology transfer.

In his closing statement at the 9th session of IRIGC-MTC - the apex body for coordination of defence cooperation, Antony announced that both sides have agreed to extend their military interaction programme till 2020 and the concrete projects would be identified shortly for signing during Singh's Moscow visit in December.

"On many other issues, including the Admiral Gorshkov project, we have agreed to continue discussions to find mutually acceptable solutions," Antony said expressing confidence that all the pending issues would be resolved at the earliest.

New Delhi and Moscow have also agreed to ink an inter-government pact on after sales and product support, so far the weakest ink in defence cooperation with Moscow.
"This agreement should also be signed during the forthcoming summit," Antony said.

Russian Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov, who is the co-chairman of the inter-governmental commission said, "some extra measures," have been taken to eliminate problems, in an apparent reference to delay in delivery of the Gorshkov and nuclear powered Nerpa submarine.

The Russian Minster said, unlike ties with other countries, Indo-Russian defence ties related to hi-technology.

"Our cooperation has confidently moved from buyer-seller relationship to joint research, development and production of hi-tech weapon systems and platforms," he said.

Describing his discussions and meetings with Kremlin top brass as "constructive, free and frank," Antony said that the two countries now had better appreciation of each others position on various issues.

"Both sides have identified a wide range of areas for future cooperation, including joint research, development and production of defence equipment and systems," the Indian Defence Minister said.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 15 Oct 2009 18:28

akash wrote: MOSCOW: India and Russia will launch the joint fifth generation fighters by year end and have agreed to collaborate to develop heavy lift cargo helicopters and futuristic infantry combat vehicles.

Not heavy but medium lift helicopter according to the Russians sources. But wait a bit, they have said about 'helicopter technics' too , so may be a number of ptograms with the helos... Have describes the news about this in my blog here.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 15 Oct 2009 19:03

Igorr wrote: Not heavy but medium lift helicopter according to the Russians sources. But wait a bit, they have said about 'helicopter technics' too , so may be a number of ptograms with the helos... Have describes the news about this in my blog here.

Is it the HAL Medium lift helicopter that they want to co develop (Russian chosen as partner) or it is completely new helicopter that they are talking about?

-Nitin

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Oct 2009 20:36

Nitin, ..about your signature in every post.. what are you trying to imply? /OT

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Oct 2009 20:45

asprinzl wrote:
kit wrote:http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... eform.html

EVOLVING NEW GEN STEALTH

author Stephen Trimble
Nothing extra-ordinary in that article except for the last paragraph which is quite scary.
Avram

but it has to be suitable for aerodynamics as well. if its used as a skin, then needs to withstand the stress and airframe requirements.

also, the most scary stuff would be a skin like that, with added mems technology to convert the microwave to heat energy and dissipated internally., thus the only visible IR section is the tail exhaust.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 15 Oct 2009 22:24

nrshah wrote: Is it the HAL Medium lift helicopter that they want to co develop (Russian chosen as partner) or it is completely new helicopter that they are talking about?

This news have caught me suddenly, being fair I didn't think the deal is ready. there were only very preliminary reports before, about possible cooperation in medium lift helicopter development. After they said what they said it's obvious for me that they pushed ahead very well in their intentions. I think from the Indian POV the program will still be called as it was called before. I expect a shared risk principle of venture, which is becoming the new standard in Indo-Russian cooperation. Also I think it will be a conventional design, not a 'super high speed helo' like Ka-92, just for reducing technical risks.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 15 Oct 2009 22:53

nrshah wrote:Is it the HAL Medium lift helicopter that they want to co develop (Russian chosen as partner) or it is completely new helicopter that they are talking about?

When was Russia chosen as the partner ?? Both Mil and Eurocopter had bid for join-development of MLH. Neither was selected as their proposed specs didn't match HAL's requirements so the deal was scrapped.