China Military Watch

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 08 Sep 2009 13:29

Border with China most peaceful: Krishna
As reports about Chinese incursions into Indian territory continue to mount, India on Monday came up with two strikingly different
reactions.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 984309.cms

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 08 Sep 2009 13:45

shynee wrote:Why India is Clueless about China

May i add.. as per history of wars. the biggest advantage China has over India is India's ignorance about its enemy.
The dhoti clad leaders at New Delhi are taking decision suitable for their tenure and putting India at disadvantage in long run.

The least India can do is counter Chinese engagement-with-containment strategy.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 08 Sep 2009 13:51

India is not clueless , its just that our babu's are <put your choicest word here>

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 08 Sep 2009 13:56

At least today , India is not foolish enough to be taken for ride by the words of a politician like Nehru who mis-handled the military , diplomacy and the nations people in general. This can be backed up by an opinion poll on ibnlive.com

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/ftn-china-a- ... 882-3.html (link)

Chinese have a military window today but it will not remain open forever and they know it.

P.S. - Lets not even get started on what SM Krishna has to say , my honest opinion of him will surely get me banned from the Forum.

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 08 Sep 2009 14:07

@Nihat
By India do you mean its technocrat or bureaucrat or the combined entity?
Pardon my knowledge, but your both sentences are contradictory.
If India had been smart enough.. there wouldn't have been a window open in the first place.

Regarding SMK, what else can he say

abrahavt · Post by **abrahavt** » 08 Sep 2009 23:04

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/china_tr ... _india.php

China denies incursions by its troops into Indian territory across the Line of Actual Control. But NDTV has exclusive information that China is actively training and arming insurgent groups in Manipur and Nagaland.

On video, an alleged Manipur militant is interrogated. Intelligence officials say he confirms that China is training Manipuri militants.

Sources say at least 400 cadre of a Manipuri insurgent group, the People's Liberation Army (PLA), have been undergoing arms training in China's Yunnan province for the last year. Ronie, alias Robindro, a self-styled major of the Manipur PLA, brags "16 platoon went to China recently, some of them have come back."

The insurgents travel to Yunnan via Myanmar. Arms for these militants also come via this route. And China's role doesn't stop at training militants.

Issac Chisi Swu, chairman of the NSCN, a Naga insurgent group, which is still upholding a ceasefire with India, has been hosted in Beijing and Kunming this May. His main officer in charge of acquiring weapons has also been twice to China.

According to intelligence operatives, a Chinese company supplies machine guns and hi-tech communication equipment to both Naga and Manipuri militants. Anti-aircraft guns have also been acquired from China by these groups, which are currently in Myanmar.

The arrested Manipuri militant has told interrogators that the PLA and other Manipuri groups are being armed and trained by Chinese experts in Myanmar. This is apparently in preparation for a major showdown with Indian security forces next year.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 08 Sep 2009 23:46

@Nihat
By India do you mean its technocrat or bureaucrat or the combined entity?
Pardon my knowledge, but your both sentences are contradictory.
If India had been smart enough.. there wouldn't have been a window open in the first place.

that is wrt to the 1962 situation when the Chinese stood on the border and Nehru was still beating up the fraternity aspect. That attitude has changed , the political leadership is aware of the EDITED threat , the deployment plans of MKI , mountain division in arunachal are ample evidence of that.

The window I spoke of has been opened up by the Chinese owing to rapid military modernization of their own , India is playing catch in terms of pure conventional hardware deterrence but during this time we remain vulnerable in certain areas.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Sep 2009 00:13

@Nihat:

We already have Mountain Divisions in Arunachal Pradesh. The IA 4 Corps is responsible for the Arunachal Pradesh and has 3 Mountain Divisions under iits command.

The recent reports are with respect to raising additional "Mountain Strike Corps" with new offensive oriented and equipped Mountain Divisions

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 09 Sep 2009 00:15

True , I was in fact referring to the newly proposed deployments in leiu of the threat which in turn - should have put it better.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 09 Sep 2009 10:46

A pending query of mine

The recent opening of 3 airfields in NE, proposed raising of Mountain Divisions, induction of T 72 instead of older tanks - are these enough as purely defensive set up to hold back any Chini adventure?
Somehow I have a feeling that Chini wont be looking at only holding a few heights aka Kargil style. They dont (IMHO) like to hold heights and hence get into long drawn out battles. They would rather want to gain a big slice of land which is perfect for us as the defenders.

There are two parts to the scenario
1. Future - new mountain divisions, more Sukhois, etc in North east
2. Present - the current mountain divisions manning the borders, current equipment level

How sure is our role in the defensive posture in these two situations?
Will appreciate if anybody can throw light on this.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 09 Sep 2009 11:32

Indian Troops buildup in Ladakh worries locals - Puki observer

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Sep 2009 11:44

Yes,the border is very peaceful,China claims Arunachal Pradesh is S.Tibet,Tibet remember was invaded by China and as it keeps on skinching its way into Indian territory under the excuse that the border is contested,our MEA tribe sit in their suites in 7* comfort for months while their official residences are being "renovated',running upo a 3 month bill of 90 lakhs (Krishna),and his deputy (Tharoor) a mere 40 lakhs approx., while the Chinese keep on painting Indian rocks red! Is there an art show taking place in the Himalayas? If so I'd love to see these latest examples of Chinese modern art! No wonder our distinguished and sartorially protocol correct FM said that the border was so "peaceful"!

"Possession is 9/10ths of the law" goes an old saying and what our latter day Chanakyas safely ensconced in their 7 star luxury have failed to realise while they get manicured,pedicured and massaged in preparation to do diplomatic battle,that the Chinese have taken that old saying to heart and to later displace them by the valiant efforts of our jawans fighting at those inhospitable Himalayan heights will cost considerably more in lives and money than their piddling little hotel bills that has given our keeper of the country's purse,Pranabji such indigestion!

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 09 Sep 2009 12:02

shynee wrote:Indian Troops buildup in Ladakh worries locals - Puki observer

The first good news. Ironic that it comes from the Puki side.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 09 Sep 2009 12:15

Nihat.. pl dont insult us by saying that the political leadership is aware of EDITED threat. leadership is totally BLIND, if you understand that word. Its not only BLIND but also SCARED of the chinkis.

My cousin was a polling officer long time back.. he went to some UP village for the elections..the booth was surrounded by the local goons with guns etc .... my cousin was told, that as a polling officer he is responsible for PEACEFUL polling and that there will be complete PEACE in the polling station. everyone walked out and the goons did their job PEACEFULLY.

I hope you can see the analogy and the claims of PEACE at the borders...

avinash.rd · Post by **avinash.rd** » 09 Sep 2009 12:30

VikB wrote: The first good news. Ironic that it comes from the Puki side.

Unbelievable. India has become a very secret society. Is it a really a democratic country??

avinash.rd · Post by **avinash.rd** » 09 Sep 2009 12:40

VikB wrote:A pending query of mine

The recent opening of 3 airfields in NE, proposed raising of Mountain Divisions, induction of T 72 instead of older tanks - are these enough as purely defensive set up to hold back any Chini adventure?
Somehow I have a feeling that Chini wont be looking at only holding a few heights aka Kargil style. They dont (IMHO) like to hold heights and hence get into long drawn out battles. They would rather want to gain a big slice of land which is perfect for us as the defenders.

There are two parts to the scenario
1. Future - new mountain divisions, more Sukhois, etc in North east
2. Present - the current mountain divisions manning the borders, current equipment level

How sure is our role in the defensive posture in these two situations?
Will appreciate if anybody can throw light on this.

VikB,

I believe that India has not thought about it till now. Looking at the Chinese force in tibet side of 2 lakh+ strong force and they already demonstrated that they can deploy a 50,000 troops in a matter of 1 or 2 days, India has to come up with a force in equal numbers. I read somewhere that India has about 40,000 troops in North east against China, which should be a cakewalk for China.

I believe the force buildup will be more serious than what u have mentioned. It will include all types of combat forces including a missile base just like we have against PAK. If we cant win a conventional war against China, then India has to resort to Nuclear weapons.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 09 Sep 2009 12:49

Nihat.. pl don't insult us by saying that the political leadership is aware of EDITED threat. leadership is totally BLIND, if you understand that word. Its not only BLIND but also SCARED of the EDITED.

Perhaps scared of China to a certain extent but I don't think they're totally unaware of the threat it poses , the one who was TOTALLY BLIND was a certain Nehru back in 1962 and his rather bright defence minister.

Perhaps it's DDM too who like to hype up everything and in the process the incursions have been greatly highlighted in print as well as televised media , making public far more aware and forcing the hand of GoI to an extent. As I already mentioned the recent deployment plans based on threat perception form China indicates we are bracing ourselves and there will be no repeat of 62. EVER.

On a different note , has there been any news on development of Tezpur base , as of now there are probably on 4 MKI's there but infrastructure is lacking. IMHO , Air power is vital in that area to constantly disrupt logistical supply lines of the enemy. In a hostile territory if Rail , Roads and other supply routes ca be taken out early , half the battle is won. perhaps the reason why Chinks unilaterally withdrew in 1962 from the N-E , they probably could not support the supply lines.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Sep 2009 14:16

avinash.rd wrote:
VikB wrote: The first good news. Ironic that it comes from the Puki side.
Unbelievable. India has become a very secret society. Is it a really a democratic country??

I'm completely convinced it is not.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Sep 2009 14:32

avinash.rd wrote:
VikB,

I believe that India has not thought about it till now. Looking at the Chinese force in tibet side of 2 lakh+ strong force and they already demonstrated that they can deploy a 50,000 troops in a matter of 1 or 2 days, India has to come up with a force in equal numbers. I read somewhere that India has about 40,000 troops in North east against China, which should be a cakewalk for China.

I believe the force buildup will be more serious than what u have mentioned. It will include all types of combat forces including a missile base just like we have against PAK. If we cant win a conventional war against China, then India has to resort to Nuclear weapons.

From where did you get the figure of 200K Chinese Troops ( and mind you, I haven;t asked for PLA number) and 40K IA troops in NE? Did you bother to consult the open source info/ask on forum on number of Mountain/Infantry Divisions in NE and number of troops in each Division? Do not pull things out of thin air and make half baked assertions.

Just check the IA page on Wikipedia and you'll come to know how many troops we have in NE plus in totality against China.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Sep 2009 14:33

rohit, you asked a question about greatest threat from china. what's your own opinion.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Sep 2009 14:36

Rahul M wrote:rohit, you asked a question about greatest threat from china. what's your own opinion.

I'm working on arriving at the ORBAT and TOE of the PLA in general and quantify the force structure they can throw at us. It will take some time. Will post on the forum.

avinash.rd · Post by **avinash.rd** » 09 Sep 2009 15:20

INDIA 10,000-12,000 approx.
China 80,000

These is the strength of INDIA and Chinese forces during 1962 war. Give me a brake.

Stop posting juvenile posts with crayon colours, wrong spelling,
irrelevant information and arrogant smart a$$ attitude.
Go and educate yourself first on what you are talking about and then come to BR.
OR, find yourself a kid's forum.
Rahul.

avinash.rd · Post by **avinash.rd** » 09 Sep 2009 15:50

Rahul M,

I was in a hurry man. U seems to be a very arrogant person.

I was just trying to explain that 10,000-12,000 Indian soldiers fought a force of 80,000 in 1962 war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-China_War

I know what I m doing. Speak with some sense.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Sep 2009 15:56

when counting heads, should we be aware the PLA formations are organized on the basis of soviet numbers rather than anglo-us which IA uses ?

1 PLA div != 1 IA div in manpower ?

a PLA div is likely 10k people -vs- a IA div with 20k ? a reinforced IA div set for a war is likely to get addl logistics units attached for a 25k headcount ?

avinash.rd · Post by **avinash.rd** » 09 Sep 2009 16:22

Ajatshatru wrote: You should 'brake' to pause and reflect on some of your posts.

As they say 'Don't wish too hard'.... lest Rahul M actually heeds your request and decides to 'give you a temporary break' from posting on this forum.

We are discussing about Chinese Military, not about my posts. I will get all the proofs which I have mentioned.

Mind ur own business!!

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 09 Sep 2009 16:46

Warmongers in China, India miss the mark
By Bhartendu Kumar Singh
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/KI02Ad01.html

Quoting some imp points from the article:

China and India had only just concluded their 13th round of special representatives' border talks this month when a Chinese strategist suggested the "Balkanization" of India into several parts to prevent any possible challenge to Chinese supremacy in the Asia-Pacific region.

Just talking of the idea suggested above, i will raise a question from a neutral point of view.
IMO the idea is similar to what describes the opinion of UK and US about Germany. It is also similar to idea describes by desi and ameriki think tanks about Pakistan.
My question is.. is the case of china is just an acceptance of india as a threat in present or future. or is it signals something else which i am probably missing.

For example, an article by an editor of a leading defense magazine predicted a Chinese attack on India before 2012. Another article in a Delhi-based newspaper a few months back claimed that China would attack India in 2017.

btw.. just a curious question. On what basis do they come with such confidant predictions.

While war can never be ruled out in an anarchical international system, more so since China and India fought in 1962, there are genuine reasons that make another war between the two countries highly unlikely.

First, China and India have come a long way towards building a cobweb of relations, criss-crossing many areas, and both have made genuine investments in reaching out to one another.

Second, the growing complexity in international relations and a mutual interdependence have escalated the costs of war. China and India are part of this process. There are fewer wars between great powers, and India is relatively better prepared and may deny another victory to China.

Thirdly, the unresolved border that could lead the two countries to another war has been subject to special negotiations. If the talks have not succeeded, neither have they failed. Perhaps, the results will be incremental.

If some Chinese scholars fantasize over a Chinese attack on India and its disintegration into smaller states, it only reflects their desire to carve out China's own area of influence, where no amount of power games by India or the United States will undermine China's leadership

For Indians, the only thing that unites them is the rising importance of China in Indian foreign policy. However, policy suggestions are often quite opposite, with some proponents still dreaming of "Chindia", not having learnt the bitter lessons from the bhai-bhai (Hindi for "India and China are brothers") fiasco.

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 09 Sep 2009 16:52

Nihat wrote:
@Nihat
By India do you mean its technocrat or bureaucrat or the combined entity?
Pardon my knowledge, but your both sentences are contradictory.
If India had been smart enough.. there wouldn't have been a window open in the first place.
that is wrt to the 1962 situation when the Chinese stood on the border and Nehru was still beating up the fraternity aspect. That attitude has changed , the political leadership is aware of the EDITED threat , the deployment plans of MKI , mountain division in arunachal are ample evidence of that.

The window I spoke of has been opened up by the Chinese owing to rapid military modernization of their own , India is playing catch in terms of pure conventional hardware deterrence but during this time we remain vulnerable in certain areas.

Off course India is better off now as was in 1962. by any parameters knowing about your ignorance is is better than not knowing about it.
But may i add that cold war or war of words is fought with rival's strength on paper. And we are not really good at that.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Sep 2009 17:44

Singha wrote:when counting heads, should we be aware the PLA formations are organized on the basis of soviet numbers rather than anglo-us which IA uses ?

1 PLA div != 1 IA div in manpower ?

a PLA div is likely 10k people -vs- a IA div with 20k ? a reinforced IA div set for a war is likely to get addl logistics units attached for a 25k headcount ?

The Western divisions and by extension Indian divisions have larger footprint as compared to their comrades in the East. Most of the division have integral assets to sustain operations. The additional detachments are on need/specific task basis; for example: additional Armored Units/Artillery Regiments/Infantry Units. Case in point: 8th Mountain Division during the Kargil Ops commanded far higher number of Infantry Units and Artillery Regiments due to nature of operational requirement.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Sep 2009 17:49

rohit, haven't the chinese re-organised their field units towards smaller combined arms units ?
they were experimenting on this for quite some time.
may be you've already gone through those but if not, have a look at jamestown foundation's articles on PLA. other than the CMP2009(released yet ?) from DOD and some RAND stuff.

another problem is that you are unlikely to get a reliable TOE for the biggest threat IMO, SRBMs, MRBMs of the 2nd artillery and LACMs. the later are becoming major threats with the 3k-4k km versions.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Sep 2009 18:14

Rahul M wrote:rohit, haven't the chinese re-organised their field units towards smaller combined arms units ?
they were experimenting on this for quite some time.
may be you've already gone through those but if not, have a look at jamestown foundation's articles on PLA. other than the CMP2009(released yet ?) from DOD and some RAND stuff.

another problem is that you are unlikely to get a reliable TOE for the biggest threat IMO, SRBMs, MRBMs of the 2nd artillery and LACMs. the later are becoming major threats with the 3k-4k km versions.

Correct observation with respect to the PLA re organization. PLA has come out with a new concept of Brigades. These are between Divisions and Regiments (Regiments are equivalent to Brigades in Western/Indian context and command 3 Battalions of a Type). Many of their Divisions have been reduced to Brigade status, which have about 50%-60% of the resources of a Division and are the main maneuver elements of the Group Army; something like the Mobile Groups of the Soviet Army of WWII or OMG in later decades (Soviet concept was of course, on much larger scale) to fight battles deep into the enemy territory. But they still are Mechanized/Armor Heavy and not true "Combined Arms" concept. Maybe, multiple Mechanized and Armor Brigades will be used together. Each Mechanized Bde has 4 Mechanized+1 Armored Battalion+1 Artillery Battlaion+1 AD Battlaion. The ratio of Mechanized and Tank Battalions is reversed in Armored Brigades. So, by all means, these are powerful, offensive formations. The Group Army continues to be the largest maneuver element of the PLA. It is equivalent to our Corps in IA and commands the Divisions and Brigades.

I will post more on it.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 09 Sep 2009 18:23

More attention needs to be paid to the integration of EW components within the Chinese Army and the use of these in recent exercises.

The IA needs to put more focus in this area

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 09 Sep 2009 18:37

was being tweeted around

China's new security strategy for Africa [PDF]

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Para ... olslag.pdf

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 09 Sep 2009 19:30

To know about the Chinese Armed Forces, see China Defence Forum. It is not a Red Chinese forum but of Chinese from western countries and some are ex military personnel.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 09 Sep 2009 19:45

The annual report on the military power of the People's Republic of China (PRC) by the Department of Defence (DoD) of the USA in 2005, states, “China’s leaders view the military
instrument as playing a central role in support of national goals and objectives.

China’s strategy for the employment of the military to support these goals, or the conditions under which China’s leaders would select military over non-military methods in problem solving, however, is less clear.

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 09 Sep 2009 20:27

RayC wrote:China’s strategy for the employment of the military to support these goals, or the conditions under which China’s leaders would select military over non-military methods in problem solving, however, is less clear.

That is a great point sir. For me atleast, the Tiananmen Square incident makes a bit more sense now. I think that PLA does make its own independent policies and also holds the power to topple the Communist party of China.

A Communist government is nothing without its military arm. This makes perfect sense with the recent events that are happening now on the Indo-Chinese border. The Chinese government denies the incursions, while the incursions do happen (by the PLA).

This is exactly what happened in 1962, PLA decided not to wait for the border talks between the two countries and went ahead and attacked.

I think that this is something that GOI should consider in its policy making as we communicate with only one of the two true power holders in PRC.

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 10 Sep 2009 08:09

PLA replaces China border police in Ladakh
http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/ ... ladakh.htm

avinash.rd · Post by **avinash.rd** » 10 Sep 2009 09:31

rohitvats wrote: From where did you get the figure of 200K Chinese Troops ( and mind you, I haven;t asked for PLA number) and 40K IA troops in NE? Did you bother to consult the open source info/ask on forum on number of Mountain/Infantry Divisions in NE and number of troops in each Division? Do not pull things out of thin air and make half baked assertions.

Just check the IA page on Wikipedia and you'll come to know how many troops we have in NE plus in totality against China.

rohitvats,

Take a look at this article
http://www.upiasia.com/Security/2009/09 ... hing/9317/

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Sep 2009 09:59

hari sud sahab, the autor of that article happens to be a member of this board and I must say his knowledge of military matters leaves something to be desired most of the time.

@ avinash.rd, regarding your earlier post.
yes I'm arrogant/tyrranical/rude/(put your favourite adjective here) if that is what it takes to keep this board on track, nothing personal. many people spend precious time and effort to research and post informative analyses and articles on this forum. I'm not going to have someone come in one fine morning to an informative discussion, say "haw ! haw ! what did army do in '62 ? pu$$ies !", ruin the whole environment AND not face consequences. sorry, not acceptable, free speech be damned if it means putting up with ridiculous one-liners.

some of the stuff you posted out of the blue (like the ORBAT in 1962) has no relation to what was being discussed, namely current military balance between India and PRC.
further inane comments like "secret society" and so on only adds noise but no value.

kindly read up, learn more and post something confidently only if you are absolutely certain of it, else inquire on board, there are many knowledgeable people here.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Sep 2009 10:02

rohitvats,

Take a look at this article
http://www.upiasia.com/Security/2009/09 ... shing/9317

I had very clearly asked you to look at the Wikipedia Page on IA and get an idea of the number of troops IA has in the NE sector, including Sikkim. And all you do is put across the above article which itself does not quote any source. It will require a wee bit more effort to understand the situation in ground. Get the fundamentals correct before you start arriving at conclusions and giving opinions. A little bit of reasearch and asking around does not hurt.

Since you yourself are not willing to do it, let me help you. Go the below link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_army

and look for number of Divisions under III, IV and XXXIII Corps. That will be good starting point to understand the situation on ground.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 10 Sep 2009 10:06

Rahul M wrote:rohit, haven't the chinese re-organised their field units towards smaller combined arms units ?
they were experimenting on this for quite some time.
may be you've already gone through those but if not, have a look at jamestown foundation's articles on PLA. other than the CMP2009(released yet ?) from DOD and some RAND stuff.

another problem is that you are unlikely to get a reliable TOE for the biggest threat IMO, SRBMs, MRBMs of the 2nd artillery and LACMs. the later are becoming major threats with the 3k-4k km versions.

Lidell Hart in his magnum opus on the Wehrmacht "The German Generals Talk" has commented on this disparity in the size of a division between the German and the Americans. A panzer division would have at the most 200 tanks (SS panzner divs were more well supplied) wheras the american armoured divs would have 300 tanks at least.