Discussion on Indian Special Forces

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 08 Sep 2009 20:06

AbhinavNehra wrote:
kltrivedi wrote:Mr. George,

The source is "Killer Instinct" a book written by retired well known Indian General. The book will be online shortly for everyone to read. The writer has extensive background or should I say the founding fathers of Indian SF. I will keep you updated. The book was published in 2002 I believe.
where can i get a pdf of "killer instinct" online, is it available?

Sir, puhleeeezzz tell me where I can find this book online!! I have been looking for it in book stores since last year!

NehraA · Post by **NehraA** » 09 Sep 2009 21:38

has any one read the book "lashkar" by mukul deva, or its sequel "salim must die". the author writes about a super secret special force called "Force 22", and also the wiki page of SFF talks about "Establishment 22", is there any relation between the two.(can it be something to do with Special Group)

The Special Frontier Force (SFF) is a paramilitary unit of India. It was conceived in the post Sino-Indian war period as a guerrilla force composed mainly of Tibetan refugees whose main goal was to conduct covert operations behind Chinese lines in case of another war between the People's Republic of China and India.

Based in Chakrata, Uttarakhand, SFF is also known as the Establishment 22. The force was put under the direct supervision of the Intelligence Bureau, and later, the Research and Analysis Wing, India's external intelligence agency.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Sep 2009 23:34

abhinav, please go through the BR special forces page from mainsite.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Sep 2009 08:49

continuing with the joint SF command news.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/09/ex ... 30mki.html

Like much else in India's establishment structure, the proposal to base Su-30s at Car Nicobar is currently just that -- a proposal. But the A&N Command has, in a short span of time, earned for itself a great deal of credibility with the government, and as the only real joint services theater command, the government takes it very seriously. If you think I'm being flippant by insinuating that the government doesn't take proposals for additional commands seriously, consider the sad tale of the defence forces' languishing proposals for an Aerospace Command and a Special Forces Command. Recently retired Navy Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta, as a parting shot, even stressed to Defence Minister AK Antony during a personal farewell chat the country needed to move fully into the domain of functional commands, since geographical commands were pushing true tri-service jointness farther and farther away from the realm of possibility.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 13 Sep 2009 11:42

atreya wrote:
where can i get a pdf of "killer instinct" online, is it available?
Sir, puhleeeezzz tell me where I can find this book online!! I have been looking for it in book stores since last year!

Why don't you buy it from here: http://www.rupapublications.com/client/ ... TINCT.aspx

The incidents about 9 Para (incld. the final battles of Jasrotia and Walia) make it worth it. Also has the story of Inder Gill. The remaining portions at least in the 1st edition were not so well written (I did communicate that to the author) but maybe that has been rectified.

munna · Post by **munna** » 19 Sep 2009 01:07

Kanchan Gupta (Assoc editor DailyPioneer) reporting on his twitter account and I quote:

Major Police-Commando Battalion for Resolute Action (CoBRA) joint assault on Maoist base in Dantewada. Runup to multi-State operation

Asst Commandant of CoBRA killed leading attack; up to 20 Maobadis possibly dead, 8 bodies located. Major arms factory busted.

Strangely, media, especially TV, has virtually ignored the story.

Looks like first Cobra casualty ever, RIP immortal martyr.

munna · Post by **munna** » 19 Sep 2009 01:13

DailyPioneer Reports

Reports said the Left-wing guerrillas suffered a serious setback following a raid on their arms factory by a joint operation team of COBRA and police. Despite the element of surprise, the Maoists shot back and killed an assistant commandant of the elite force. At least six COBRA personnel went missing and an equal number was seriously injured. The number of Maoists killed in the fierce encounter was estimated at over a dozen.

“Nine bodies of Maoists have already been recovered while assistant commandant Manoranjan Singh died in the encounter,” said DGP Vishwaranjan. Confirming that six COBRA personnel were missing, the DGP said more Maoists might have been killed and a search was on to recover their bodies.

Significantly, the incident occurred when hectic preparations are on to launch a massive strike against the rebels in Chhattisgarh. The operation will pool together forces from the BSF, ITBP, CRPF, CAF and district police with the help of special police officers, who have been drafted in from the local youth. Already, Air Force officers have visited Raipur in connection with the proposed offensive against the Maoists.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 19 Sep 2009 01:36

^^^ Seems like the CoBRA guys got ambushed while returning from the operation - possibly convoy ambush which might explain the statement about 6 missing jawans. The Maoists seem to be extremely well trained and moreover much more familiar with the lay of the land.

munna · Post by **munna** » 19 Sep 2009 01:43

^^ But Cobras have destroyed a significant ammunition dump or factory as its being called. Not bad if they have degraded their firepower but one feels sad to see our nation commit same mistakes over and over again. We let these pests become monsters and then lose our brave to quell them.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Sep 2009 10:10

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/09/in ... w-9mm.html

Indian Army Special Forces For New 9mm Pistol
The Indian Army has put out a request for information (RFI) for new semi-automatic 9mm (9x19) pistols for its Special Forces and Parachute units. According to the RFI document, the Army has detailed that it is looking for a weapon that has "the option of fixing on a laser and a high intensity flash light. It should be light weight, easy to carry and operate, robust pistol with which a Para Trooper should be able to carry out static line and free fall parachute jumps with the weapon on person/packed in the rucksack/weapon container."

The SF and Para units currently have Austrian Glock 17 and and Belgian firm Fabrique Nationale de Herstal's (FN) FN-35 9mm pistols. According to sources, the Army is expecting responses from a lot of companies which include Israeli Military Industries (SP-21 Barak) and German firm Carl Walther GmbH Sportwaffen (Walther P99).

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 19 Sep 2009 10:58

Rahul M wrote:http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/09/in ... w-9mm.html

do they mean this ......

http://www.glockworld.com/lightsandlasers.htm ..... I think they can be ordered separately even for existing glocks.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 19 Sep 2009 13:42

Rahul M wrote:http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/09/in ... w-9mm.html

Indian Army Special Forces For New 9mm Pistol
The Indian Army has put out a request for information (RFI) for new semi-automatic 9mm (9x19) pistols for its Special Forces and Parachute units. According to the RFI document, the Army has detailed that it is looking for a weapon that has "the option of fixing on a laser and a high intensity flash light. It should be light weight, easy to carry and operate, robust pistol with which a Para Trooper should be able to carry out static line and free fall parachute jumps with the weapon on person/packed in the rucksack/weapon container."

The SF and Para units currently have Austrian Glock 17 and and Belgian firm Fabrique Nationale de Herstal's (FN) FN-35 9mm pistols. According to sources, the Army is expecting responses from a lot of companies which include Israeli Military Industries (SP-21 Barak) and German firm Carl Walther GmbH Sportwaffen (Walther P99).

We can build a ATV but not a pistol, my greetings to import lobby!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Sep 2009 14:00

Raj sahab, same can be said of most western countries in case of small arms. they use belgian and austrian designs produced under license. I'm not saying we shouldn't but not everything has to be designed here. we should actually make things under license or even ask the pvt players to do so.
clearly, small arms isn't a priority.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 19 Sep 2009 14:07

Rahul M wrote:Raj sahab, same can be said of most western countries in case of small arms. they use belgian and austrian designs produced under license. I'm not saying we shouldn't but not everything has to be designed here. we should actually make things under license or even ask the pvt players to do so.
clearly, small arms isn't a priority.

They buy a few small items for urgent needs or political considerations but do not have import obsession of Indian brass! We have not been able to decide on license manufacture or Indian development of 9mm pistol for only 20 years. Among major nations USA, China & Russia use indigenous designs. USA imported some italian pistols for some political back patting but lot of glocks are used. EU are small nations. you must compare our imports with a nation which has fourth largest economy in the world with 30 million strong military, para and police forces.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Sep 2009 14:42

glock is an austrian company. it is manufactured in US under license by glock USA IIRC because US has a no made in foreign policy. significant amount of small arms of US forces are of foreign make. the SF almost exclusively use foreign designed weapons from H&K to the next gen SCAR-H from FN entering service.

the best way forward for us would be to select one handgun and get a license to produce it in as much qty we want.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 19 Sep 2009 17:18

Rahul M wrote:glock is an austrian company. it is manufactured in US under license by glock USA IIRC because US has a no made in foreign policy. significant amount of small arms of US forces are of foreign make. the SF almost exclusively use foreign designed weapons from H&K to the next gen SCAR-H from FN entering service.

the best way forward for us would be to select one handgun and get a license to produce it in as much qty we want.

I stand corrected, I thought glock was designed in USA

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 19 Sep 2009 17:41

The Glock is a favourite of police departments across US and Canada. The US Coast Guard IIANM have chosen the Beretta. Excepting the Russians almost everyone else uses foreign made small arms if that is what they think is the best. At present the US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan are once again - for the nth time - discovering and the singing the praises of the AK series. The M16 was originally touted to be the best assault rifle ever, requiring no cleaning ever!

ruprag · Post by **ruprag** » 19 Sep 2009 21:45

I am new here and so just finding my roots as of now...

but i was reading the posts on the "look" and thought of posting this youtube link here which shows the mexico special forces in action, they have good set of equipment and body armour and face fully covered...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqcNWRDO ... re=channel

Thanks,...

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 20 Sep 2009 00:45

Nikhil T wrote:The CRPF CoBRA - Commando Battalion for Resolute Action

This is supposedly the best equipped para-military force in India. Rs 1300 crores were granted for weapons and see what the end soldier fights in - no BPJ, not even a helmet, no backpack and most of all - civilian clothes ? And this is the encounter where they are expecting 200 heavily armed Naxals on the prowl.
LINK

^^^

Shameful

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Sep 2009 01:13

before passing judgement, we should think a bit. is it the case that GOI can't afford 200 odd sets of BPJs and helmets for a newly raised specialised force ?
hardly, it is much more likely that body armour is a hindrance in the environment they are operating in. this is not an urban SWAT team that will be driven or flown to its target area.
how many jungle warfare forces have we seen wearing helmets and BPJs on those long patrols ?
can't remember many. heck, how many dedicated jungle warfare COIN teams are there in the world ? the only ones I remember off the top of my head are colombia's anti-drug forces.
who are quite capable and advanced in weapons and training, receiving regular US assistance and what not.
they look quite similar, except for the fatigues http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ?p=4239118

all other jungle warfare forces I've seen images of (like those of the french foreign legion) are without body armour or helmets.
COBRA is meant to be a force that can mix in with the people and use deception to fight. the lack of uniforms is a deliberate decision.
I don't think you will see them in fatigues/BPJs during ops in forest environment.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 20 Sep 2009 01:24

this BPJ wail is getting tiring.

bPJs are not practical all the time.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Sep 2009 01:35

The CoBRA teams go into the jungle and live there just like the naxals for like a week. They wear clothes that common people wear, so they can intermingle if need be.
Local intel gathering is important for their actions.

Apparantly they are quite successful as per reports.

They have helicoptor support if needed.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 20 Sep 2009 01:52

You know people need to do a little research before words like "shameful" are bandied about- that attire was specially chosen by the CoBRA units so they look like naxals from a distance ! Read the Telegraph reports from the Lalgarh operation.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 20 Sep 2009 02:16

Nikhil T wrote:The CRPF CoBRA - Commando Battalion for Resolute Action

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1476 ... 570801.jpg

This is supposedly the best equipped para-military force in India. Rs 1300 crores were granted for weapons and see what the end soldier fights in - no BPJ, not even a helmet, no backpack and most of all - civilian clothes ? And this is the encounter where they are expecting 200 heavily armed Naxals on the prowl.
LINK

anishns wrote:^^^

Shameful

READ.....

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 20 Sep 2009 02:25

@RahulM
The reason they died was that Chattisgarh Police commandoes didn't have radios that could operate in deep forests even though CoBRAs did. So all communication was one-way and backup couldn't reach the advance units. Isn't that incompetency ? For two people to talk both need to have talking devices. Govt. of Chhattisgarh can afford those right?
P.S: There are Argentine and Brazilian (Infantria de Selva ) dedicated jungle special forces.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 20 Sep 2009 02:47

I am sorry for my comment above and will refrain from posting one liners in the future!

pgbhat wrote:
Nikhil T wrote:The CRPF CoBRA - Commando Battalion for Resolute Action

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1476 ... 570801.jpg

This is supposedly the best equipped para-military force in India. Rs 1300 crores were granted for weapons and see what the end soldier fights in - no BPJ, not even a helmet, no backpack and most of all - civilian clothes ? And this is the encounter where they are expecting 200 heavily armed Naxals on the prowl.
LINK

anishns wrote:^^^

Shameful
READ.....

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 20 Sep 2009 08:47

Nikhil T wrote:The CRPF CoBRA - Commando Battalion for Resolute Action

This is supposedly the best equipped para-military force in India. Rs 1300 crores were granted for weapons and see what the end soldier fights in - no BPJ, not even a helmet, no backpack and most of all - civilian clothes ? And this is the encounter where they are expecting 200 heavily armed Naxals on the prowl.
LINK

In your initial comment no where do I see you talking about communication like you say so below. People's ire against you was for offhand comment that I have shown in bold. Please post links to back your claim (underlined). If not state that it is your assumption and not pass off as fact.

Nikhil T wrote:@RahulM
The reason they died was that Chattisgarh Police commandoes didn't have radios that could operate in deep forests even though CoBRAs did. So all communication was one-way and backup couldn't reach the advance units. Isn't that incompetency ? For two people to talk both need to have talking devices. Govt. of Chhattisgarh can afford those right?
P.S: There are Argentine and Brazilian (Infantria de Selva ) dedicated jungle special forces.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Sep 2009 09:04

Nikhil T wrote:@RahulM
The reason they died was that Chattisgarh Police commandoes didn't have radios that could operate in deep forests even though CoBRAs did. So all communication was one-way and backup couldn't reach the advance units. Isn't that incompetency ? For two people to talk both need to have talking devices. Govt. of Chhattisgarh can afford those right?

nikhil, if I might jog your memories a bit you were commenting about the COBRA not chattisgarh police forces. my reply was about the former only.

P.S: There are Argentine and Brazilian (Infantria de Selva ) dedicated jungle special forces.

there are many others but not many who operate in COIN ops in jungle environment, which was my point. IA itself trains both its own own forces and those from other organisations (like the COBRA itself) in jungle warfare at CIJWS, as you probably know.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 20 Sep 2009 11:17

A question to all. Is the Greyhound force of AP police similar to CoBRA? I mean, are Greyhounds also clad in civilian clothes?

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 20 Sep 2009 19:59

P.S: There are Argentine and Brazilian (Infantria de Selva ) dedicated jungle special forces

That's a nice posed photograph to impress. That's not what they would look like in combat, because, no one tags along a PRO while in a firefight.

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 20 Sep 2009 20:50

It may not be a 'posed' pic because u dont get to see COBRA guys even in a deployment zone. This was either taken earlier or at a staging point/CRPF camp for the Dantewada operation. Regarding, the outfit and all that, COBRA guys arent supposed to stand out in the jungle like a bunch of black-clad SWAT guys as in movies. I have met some COBRA chaps in Lalgarh (bengal). Seemed a very competent lot. Many of them are tribals, so they are hardy and know the jungle. In the heat and humidity of the Indian jungle, it is just impossible to walk around in bulky BPJs. In Lalgarh for instance, the temp was 45 deg and humidity 95%. Imagine during recon and surveil ops in the jungle in that furnace!!! Besides, the BPJs issued to CRPF weigh 6 kg and are pretty bulky. These guys are supposed to move fast. They are very nimble and agile. They'd happily trade speed for a BPJ. Besides, COBRAS are supposed to blend in, to be mistaken for Naxals in case of a chance encounter, to give them that few seconds of surprise. They do a very dangerous job and i guess are not given the due they deserve

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 20 Sep 2009 22:17

KiranM wrote: In your initial comment no where do I see you talking about communication like you say so below. People's ire against you was for offhand comment that I have shown in bold. Please post links to back your claim (underlined). If not state that it is your assumption and not pass off as fact.

Nikhil T wrote:@RahulM
The reason they died was that Chattisgarh Police commandoes didn't have radios that could operate in deep forests even though CoBRAs did. So all communication was one-way and backup couldn't reach the advance units. Isn't that incompetency ? For two people to talk both need to have talking devices. Govt. of Chhattisgarh can afford those right?

Here, KiranM 6 Elite soldiers die, Radios fail in Naxal battle Do a Google News search and you'll get to know more about the encounter where CoBRAs were ambushed while they were resting on a hill and reinforcements couldn't be contacted.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 20 Sep 2009 23:21

Radio communications are lost all the time even with the best radios. Happens to the US , French etc in Afghnaisthan.

Thats the nature of it.

Unless one knows the details of the radios , the actual terrain and what happens it hard to say whether it was because of equipment failure.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Sep 2009 23:23

in hilly terrain the only reliable way out is satcom.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 21 Sep 2009 18:52

Nikhil T wrote:@RahulM
The reason they died was that Chattisgarh Police commandoes didn't have radios that could operate in deep forests even though CoBRAs did. So all communication was one-way and backup couldn't reach the advance units. Isn't that incompetency ? For two people to talk both need to have talking devices. Govt. of Chhattisgarh can afford those right?

Here, KiranM 6 Elite soldiers die, Radios fail in Naxal battle Do a Google News search and you'll get to know more about the encounter where CoBRAs were ambushed while they were resting on a hill and reinforcements couldn't be contacted.

Most two way Radios generally work on the LOS system. Many times, if the distance from the base transmitter is high enough the Radios will work one way only (due to the lower strength of the hand held unit. The 'Radio Operator' that moves with almost any group will be evidently identified easily, esp in case of the CoBRA unit as he is loaded with a large backpack with enough power to transmit longer ranges. Moreover this will slow him down, which as others have already mentioned is not something that the CoBRA units would like.

Please read a little bit more about the radio and technolgies before you make such off-hand statements.

P.S: MOD's...this is WOT... please move the discussion to appropriate thread.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Sep 2009 22:38

In thick jungles, VHF radio sets don't function well due to 'screening'.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 22 Sep 2009 01:49

COIN ops in jungle environment

What is the category of RR in J&K ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Sep 2009 08:41

I was actually talking of foreign forces as compared to desi ones. since the allusion was that Indian forces are ill-equipped, another Indian example won't have been proper.

even so, not exactly similar environmental conditions. weather is a big factor in deciding gear.
COIN ops by army and assam rifles in NE are closer to these ops than RR.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 07 Oct 2009 19:45

The newspapers are mentioning "C-60" commandos to tackle Naxalite insurgency. Can someone provide me with more information regarding this force?

sumeet_s · Post by **sumeet_s** » 07 Oct 2009 20:23

AFAIK C-60 is a Anti-Naxalite Commando Force. It is a special operation squad attached to Police Units.
They are currently operational in Gadchiroli and Gondia.
They are basically locals who are well versed with the terrain as well as the enemy.