LCA news and discussion

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Sep 2009 07:18

merlin wrote:Was that design intent that couldn't be met or was that a change in requirements from the IAF leading to strengthened wing and other areas leading to higher weight?

both.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 13 Sep 2009 15:14

Would the Right To Information Act allow citizens to learn what percentage of test cases the LCA has completed? What about the MMR?

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 13 Sep 2009 15:25

PratikDas wrote:Would the Right To Information Act allow citizens to learn what percentage of test cases the LCA has completed? What about the MMR?

No

Section 8(1)(a) of the Right to information act 2005 specifically excludes matters of strategic nature...

It reads as follows:

8. (1) Notwithstanding anything contained in this Act, there shall be no obligation to give any citizen,—
(a) information, disclosure of which would prejudicially affect the sovereignty and integrity of India, the security, strategic, scientific or economic interests of the State, relation with foreign State or lead to incitement of an offence;

-Nitin

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 13 Sep 2009 21:31

^^^ Well one could always give it a try. If the Information Commissioner feels it doesnt hurt our sovereignty he might release the info. And since when has the percentage of test cases that LCA has completed have a bearing on the territorial integrity of the nation?

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 14 Sep 2009 03:53

suryag wrote:And since when has the percentage of test cases that LCA has completed have a bearing on the territorial integrity of the nation?

He will reply - "Its not a cricket match, where you can ask for score to be published."

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 14 Sep 2009 04:04

vishwakarmaa wrote:
suryag wrote:And since when has the percentage of test cases that LCA has completed have a bearing on the territorial integrity of the nation?
He will reply - "Its not a cricket match, where you can ask for score to be published."

If its not a score then what is this: LCA-Tejas has completed 1173 Test Flights successfully. (11-Sep-09)

Instead of the runs scored, i.e. number of flights, I'm just asking for the number of overs completed, i.e. percentage of test cases completed.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 14 Sep 2009 05:17

Noone scores 1173 in a cricket match. That prooves its not a score.

Its not a cricket match and can't be treated like one. Lets be serious.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 14 Sep 2009 06:53

vishwakarmaa wrote:Noone scores 1173 in a cricket match. That prooves its not a score.

Its not a cricket match and can't be treated like one. Lets be serious.

You shouldn't have taken it literally - it was meant to be an analogy. I know quite well that a "score" of 1173 is not probable in cricket - please give me the benefit of the doubt that I have a brain.

The number of flights is openly put on display for each individual plane but the key performance indicator is the percentage of completed test cases. I am being serious - not just trying to win over you in a silly game. Instead of bemoaning that the LCA is late the media could also put some effort into reporting what percentage of test cases have been completed. If there are many attempts to get this information then eventually someone will fold and leak the number through the panwallah channel. Anything that helps fill this information void is welcome.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 14 Sep 2009 07:18

a flying LSP-3 is perhaps a better marker than the % of tests on the LCA progress, I hope they do that by the end of this year atleast

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Sep 2009 07:37

India's babooze are very very narrow minded onlee. The heavy axe of OSA hangs ever so perilously by a slender thread over these institutions that we so gleefully diss and diss-cuss. Over there there is an entirely different world, where people are careful to an extreme not to give out any info that may later come back to hurt them.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Sep 2009 07:42

With the Chinese breathing down so heavily on our necks, it would have helped as a deerrent to have 2-3 squadrons of the LCA flying. Even extra bisons or bis would have helped. Mera Bharat Mahaan!!

santoshs · Post by **santoshs** » 14 Sep 2009 18:17

Any news when the trainer is going to fly...where are the other LSPs? Are we so slow or is ADA \HAL combine is upto something special?

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 15 Sep 2009 10:43

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/09/wh ... tejas.html

Which Engine Will Power The Tejas?

Some insight from Shiv Aroor on engine seletion ....

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Sep 2009 09:00

If indeed GE-414 can fit in the hole for Tejas as claimed , then GE will be selected any day and time ove EJ200 , there were previous reports that 414 will been structural changes on Tejas and would affect the CG.

But it seems now that both GE and EJ can fit in the same hole as 404.

GE414 is far cheaper than EJ-200 and cost does matter , and the experience that GE holds working with ADA/IAF will make sure that the deal is sealed.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 16 Sep 2009 09:08

Has the radar been integrated? Also with 100 engines to be procured with an option for 60 more there seems to be some hope for a reworked kaveri after all cause the number of engines that would be required will be well over 160.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 16 Sep 2009 09:09

Austin wrote:If indeed GE-414 can fit in the hole for Tejas as claimed , then GE will be selected any day and time ove EJ200 , there were previous reports that 414 will been structural changes on Tejas and would affect the CG.

But it seems now that both GE and EJ can fit in the same hole as 404.

GE414 is far cheaper than EJ-200 and cost does matter , and the experience that GE holds working with ADA/IAF will make sure that the deal is sealed.

Austin, correct me if I am wrong...
despite fitting the same hole...wouldn't the additional wt* (~100kgs) still shift the CG?

*the article (if I remember correctly) claims that both engines are heavier than the F404-IN20 byt about 100kgs

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Sep 2009 10:00

Raveen , I dont know if a ~ 100 kg weight increase will dramatically affect the CG , requiring structural changes , but the dimension change will definately do.

So far there were reports that GE-414 dimension is not a straight fit in the hole without making structural changes on Tejas Mk2 , but EJ-200 required minimum structural changes on tejas mk2

Now the recent news from Shiv where both claim that their engine can fit in the hole , means GE-414 wins hands down.

But here is a recent IDR write up comparing GE-414 offer with EJ-200

Alternative Power Source For LCA

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Sep 2009 10:06

another factor in making the final decision will be how much trust they have in the kaveri mk2 or whatever they will call it.

LCA would require higher thrust engines in MLU 10-15 years from now if it has to stay competitive. would they trust the GTRE to fill that requirement ?
if so, the F414 with no further growth potential is a given. if not, the EJ200 is a much better choice.

nice article btw austin, thanks for posting it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Sep 2009 10:20

We are known to be penny wise and pound foolish and generally do not learn from history , so the lowest cost is generally the greatest buy ( I would be more than happy to be proven wrong here )

So if both engines can fit inside the hole without drastic structural changes then 414 which is claimed to be far cheaper than the latest EJ-200 will win hands down.

Only if 414 does a dramatic shift in the CG of tejas Mk2 requiring major flight testing programs and delaying the whole mk2 project by a good 2 years or so will GOI/ADA will go for EJ-200.

santoshs · Post by **santoshs** » 16 Sep 2009 11:17

Austin wrote:
We are known to be penny wise and pound foolish and generally do not learn from history , so the lowest cost is generally the greatest buy ( I would be more than happy to be proven wrong here )

I do not feel this time it is going to happen. This time we are not buying something which is going to be integerated by someone else like Russians. ADA has to integrate it and IAF is regularly monitoring the status.

ADA has designed it and it has reached near IOC. It is they who have written flight laws and I am sure they must not have forgotten headache the change to R-73 had given them. It increased the weight as well as caused delay....both in terms of some structural redesign and testing as well as incorporating changes in Flight law code/validation.

I feel that EJ-200 is better fit than GE-414. But this is purely speculative based upon weight and dimension of the engines.

We can not have a clear picture unless we know the weight distribution of both the engines, how their mounting is designed, how much extra weight LCA engine mounting can take, how this extra weight will propagate in terms of bending moment all over the plane, extra weight and extra thrust means extra fatigue on the frame....so redesign and revalidation of airframe life, whether flight law coding is object oriented and how the the code modules are split, how they have designed the algorithm, any change means whether it needs updation in terms of certain veriables or the whole algo has to be rewritten and a significant code has to changed.

I feel ADA\IAF will know better and will fight tooth and nail any effort by babus to select one with minimum quote.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Sep 2009 11:37

Austin wrote:Raveen , I dont know if a ~ 100 kg weight increase will dramatically affect the CG , requiring structural changes , but the dimension change will definately do.

So far there were reports that GE-414 dimension is not a straight fit in the hole without making structural changes on Tejas Mk2 , but EJ-200 required minimum structural changes on tejas mk2

Now the recent news from Shiv where both claim that their engine can fit in the hole , means GE-414 wins hands down.

But here is a recent IDR write up comparing GE-414 offer with EJ-200

Alternative Power Source For LCA

that article says that the GE F414 has no growth potential. thats not true. GE is now looking for an export customer to fund development of the F414 EPE engine. it has a 20% thrust increase based on a new core and higher fan diameter

Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20% thrust upgrade
By Stephen Trimble

Boeing is seeking an international launch customer for a 20% higher thrust version of the General Electric F414 turbofan that powers the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

The F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) includes an all new core and forward fan to dramatically increase the fighter's takeoff performance, said Bob Gower, Boeing vice president for F/A-18E/F.

The improvements would increase the F414 thrust rating from 22,000lbs to 26,600lbs. The baseline F414-GE-400, which also powers the Saab Gripen demonstration aircraft, is itself a 35% higher thrust version of the F404 and entered service with the Super Hornet fleet in 1998.

More recently, the US Navy, Boeing and GE have been developing durability improvements to reduce foreign object damage and specific fuel consumption, Gower told reporters participating in a Boeing media tour.

While the USN seeks a new engine core to make the F414 more durable, some international customers are interested in a new engine fan that enables higher thrust, Gower said.

"The 'enhanced durability engine' becomes the 'enhanced performance engine' when you put the fan on it," Gower said.

Although the core enhancements are already under contract with the USN, the programme is seeking an export customer to launch development of the F414 EPE, Gower said.

The international order would lead to follow-on sales for the USN, which would gradually replace its current inventory with the improved version, Gower said.

Several countries, including India, Brazil, Denmark, Greece and Kuwait, are considering the F/A-18E/F, with the Royal Australian Air Force already signed on as the first export customer. The RAAF has ordered 24 F/A-18E/Fs, including 12 provisioned to become EA-18G Growlers.

The improved thrust would likely be most welcomed among militaries operating in hot weather, which reduces engine performance especially at a takeoff.

Despite the dramatic thrust increase, the EPE would not require enlarging the F/A-18E/F's engine inlets to enable increased air flow, Gower said.

"We are not modifying the mould line of the aircraft," Gower said. "The current inlet gives us enough [air] in-take."

Gower also said the EPE would require changing the number of compressor stages, but he did not elaborate.

The USN is also planning to steadily improve the F/A-18E/Fs sensors, electronic warfare system, connectivity and weapons load-out over the next decade, Gower said.

"The US government and Boeing and our suppliers," said Gower, "continue to invest in the platform because we see opportunities both domestically and internationally for the platform."

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 16 Sep 2009 15:18

you people are carrying forward what u wrote in the key publishing forum's IAF NEWS THREAD

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 17 Sep 2009 15:54

Some good news after all: Indian delegation visited RD-33MK production plant

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 17 Sep 2009 17:12

Igorr wrote:Some good news after all: Indian delegation visited RD-33MK production plant

There was also news about Ivchencko Progress proposing an 90 kN engine for Tejas during AI-09.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 17 Sep 2009 17:37

KrishG wrote:
Igorr wrote:Some good news after all: Indian delegation visited RD-33MK production plant
There was also news about Ivchencko Progress proposing an 90 kN engine for Tejas during AI-09.

Ivchenko can only propose a joint development in Saturn-Indian Al-55 lke framwork. They have no ready engine of such class.

Be bit realistic, my friends. Who wants 3 different engines, F404, JE200 and Kavery on one aircraft?

It would be an extremely stupid decision IMHO. So I see the best solution from the technical aspect could be following with f404 - f414 GE family on LCA and MMRCA with gradually changing them to Kavery when ready, but it's hardly possible due to political considerations. Thus, another thinkable option: to go with Klimov's RD-33 - RD-33MK - RD-93 both for LCA and MMRCA with gradually replacing by Kavery for all LCA/MiG-29 fleet in the future. I think with RD-33 ser.3 licension they have already started with the last way.

ajay_hk · Post by **ajay_hk** » 21 Sep 2009 00:11

Navy backs Tejas with Rs 900 cr
Ajai Shukla / Bangalore September 21, 2009, 0:01 IST

Business Standard has learnt that the navy has okayed the placement of an order for six Naval LCAs. At an approximate cost of Rs 150 crore per aircraft, that will provide a Rs 900 crore infusion into the Naval LCA programme.

That investment in the Tejas programme is rooted in the navy’s plan to operate both light and medium fighters off its aircraft carriers. The Naval LCA will supplement the heavier Russian MiG-29K, which has already been ordered from Russia. The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC), being built at Cochin Shipyard, Kochi, has been designed with a separate aircraft lift and maintenance facilities for the LCA, in addition to facilities for the MiG-29K. That has linked the development of the Naval LCA with the construction of the IAC, which is expected to join the fleet by 2014.

Article starts off with

Talk to navy fighter pilots about their air force counterparts and you cannot miss the message: air force pilots are pussycats… real fighter jocks fly from ships!

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 21 Sep 2009 00:27

ajay_hk wrote:Navy backs Tejas with Rs 900 cr
Ajai Shukla / Bangalore September 21, 2009, 0:01 IST
Business Standard has learnt that the navy has okayed the placement of an order for six Naval LCAs. At an approximate cost of Rs 150 crore per aircraft, that will provide a Rs 900 crore infusion into the Naval LCA programme.

That investment in the Tejas programme is rooted in the navy’s plan to operate both light and medium fighters off its aircraft carriers. The Naval LCA will supplement the heavier Russian MiG-29K, which has already been ordered from Russia. The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC), being built at Cochin Shipyard, Kochi, has been designed with a separate aircraft lift and maintenance facilities for the LCA, in addition to facilities for the MiG-29K. That has linked the development of the Naval LCA with the construction of the IAC, which is expected to join the fleet by 2014.
Article starts off with
Talk to navy fighter pilots about their air force counterparts and you cannot miss the message: air force pilots are pussycats… real fighter jocks fly from ships!

I am tired of saying this again and again but just once more :

Why can't the IA and IAF learn something from the Indian Navy ??

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 21 Sep 2009 05:04

Very brave of the Navy!! I hope HAL can stick to its deadline, and maybe we can see N-LCA deployed on the IAC-I before 2015!!
By the way, Rs. 150 crores per bird is significant. Thats approximately what a Su-30MKI costs today!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Sep 2009 05:53

WRT the LCA what has the IAF done that they should get a whack on their knuckles? With the right engine the IAF should be inducting a few squadrons.

In fact the IN may need to follow that path too.

We will fly the Naval LCA with the current GE-404 engine to test its flight characteristics, and whether its structural strength is sufficient for aircraft carrier operations. After the LCA is fitted with a new, more powerful engine we will take the next step of operating from an aircraft carrier.

Thanks the IAF for that "new, more powerful engine".

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 21 Sep 2009 06:20

KrishG wrote:Navy backs Tejas with Rs 900 cr
Ajai Shukla / Bangalore September 21, 2009, 0:01 IST
Business Standard has learnt that the navy has okayed the placement of an order for six Naval LCAs. At an approximate cost of Rs 150 crore per aircraft, that will provide a Rs 900 crore infusion into the Naval LCA programme.

That investment in the Tejas programme is rooted in the navy’s plan to operate both light and medium fighters off its aircraft carriers. The Naval LCA will supplement the heavier Russian MiG-29K, which has already been ordered from Russia. The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC), being built at Cochin Shipyard, Kochi, has been designed with a separate aircraft lift and maintenance facilities for the LCA, in addition to facilities for the MiG-29K. That has linked the development of the Naval LCA with the construction of the IAC, which is expected to join the fleet by 2014.
Article starts off with
Talk to navy fighter pilots about their air force counterparts and you cannot miss the message: air force pilots are pussycats… real fighter jocks fly from ships!
I am tired of saying this again and again but just once more :

Why can't the IA and IAF learn something from the Indian Navy ??

Not fair, IAF has put firm order for 28 Tejas with HAL several years back. That too with an underpowered engine. Only 3 LSP's been manufactured so far by HAL/ADA.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 21 Sep 2009 08:42

Whats up with the lack of ability to produce LCAs? Where is the next LSP and the PV5(?)

vina · Post by **vina** » 21 Sep 2009 09:30

ajay_hk wrote:Navy backs Tejas with Rs 900 cr

Hmm. Our Diyar Karnail turned Jurnailist, Ajay Shook Law seems to be well on the way to graduating into a full fledged journalist . And in the highest traditions of Jurnailism in Yindia, he seems to have graduated into writting reams of "fillers" (to call it politely, but verbal vomit to be brutally honest).

The only real HARD piece of news in the entire piece can be summed up in one line

Navy puts its full weight behind the Naval Tejas with a Rs 900 Crore order. Orders 6 LSPs for Rs 150cr each

Around that one liner, the entire piece was surrounded by a lot of "decorations" and the entire piece was around 4 inches thick and some atleast 6 inches wide in the middle pages of today's morning's business standard. Other than the hard one line bit, the rest drew a big yawn from me the morning.

Shook Law needs to watch out. Writing reams of verbose inanities quickly leads one down to the end point which is Barkha Dutt. All noise and static, but no actual content. Burkha Dutt (she would defintley be called an Air Head in So Cal) --> Classic example of the old saying. Empty vessel (head) makes the noise!

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 21 Sep 2009 09:35

^^^

Vina-ji

I would normally agree with you, except that Ajai Shukla, as opposed to other DDM reporters, has worn the uniform and knows the difference between the radar end and the musharraf end of aircrafts. I do recall his negative opinion about Arjun, but that has been amended these days. These types of filler articles, in any case, are needed to combat the "DRDO IS KILLING US AND IS A WASTE OF MONEY !!! OMG !!!" of the type that Shiv Aroor and likes put out.

Ajai-ji has done his bit if some random SDRE comes across LCA, recalls the article and thinks "hmm Navy knows what its doing. They are setting up infra to accommodate an indigenous fighter"

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Sep 2009 09:37

umm, not quite there are other important nuggets too.
viz.

That investment in the Tejas programme is rooted in the navy’s plan to operate both light and medium fighters off its aircraft carriers. The Naval LCA will supplement the heavier Russian MiG-29K, which has already been ordered from Russia. The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC), being built at Cochin Shipyard, Kochi, has been designed with a separate aircraft lift and maintenance facilities for the LCA, in addition to facilities for the MiG-29K.

these are important datapoints to gauge Navy's commitment to the program, specifically it is more than just a TD.

Meanwhile, a major shore-based test facility is coming up at INS Hansa, in Goa, which replicates an aircraft carrier deck on ground, complete with arrested recovery and a ski jump for take off. This facility, which is expected to be operational by October 2011, will be used for certifying the Naval LCA before actually flying off an aircraft carrier.

though obvious, this is new information.

defence journalism in India has to cater to a readership where the median lies around 0, I don't blame him in trying to explain every bit he writes.
it's not written keeping in mind an interested (and informed) readership like BR.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 21 Sep 2009 11:58

ADA + HAL has orders now for 2+4+2+8+20+12+6=54 LCA. Their current output is One LCA per One and half year.

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 21 Sep 2009 12:17

Raj Malhotra wrote:ADA + HAL has orders now for 2+4+2+8+20+12+6=54 LCA.

Raj,

It would be nice if you can explain all the orders....if possible..and how many have been delivered ?

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 21 Sep 2009 13:18

Did anyone notice the roboLizard on the glass canopy of LCA in Shukla ji's blog?

I am sure that is an ultra advanced automated cockpit cleaner robot that India has developed.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 21 Sep 2009 13:47

Nikhil T wrote:By the way, Rs. 150 crores per bird is significant. Thats approximately what a Su-30MKI costs today!

Why should we expect our local produced product to be cheaper then the imported one? Especially, if we want to have the same quality; if not better (Check Arjun saga). We normally ignore to accept that stuff becomes cheap only after ordered in large numbers not for 100-200. (Check F-22, each plane costs half a billion). As, costs and investment for R & D is huge for us as we don't have any infrastructure.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Sep 2009 13:51

navy version will cost more as it is much more complex. I think this includes the extra navy specific development costs.

Daedalus · Post by **Daedalus** » 21 Sep 2009 17:50

AmitR wrote:
Did anyone notice the roboLizard on the glass canopy of LCA in Shukla ji's blog?

I am sure that is an ultra advanced automated cockpit cleaner robot that India has developed.

I see it

and by the way nice find, its hard to spot. May be you should become an analyst for the RAW (or some intelligence agency). Its probably a Common House Gecko or some other gecko.

Ok one more thing, it could be some kind of micro robospy trying to get a peek of the cockpit.