LCA news and discussion

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 24 Sep 2009 19:22

AmitR wrote: Had USA not placed sanctions on India after POKII we would probably be flying LCAs today and not need an expensive MRCA deal. The amount of money saved could have gone into modernising our other armed forces or even for better social causes. Sigh, that is not to be!

Sometime when a successful cooperation is very broad and during long time its limitations are very clear too. Otherwise a new cooperation seems to be very promising, but the risk of uncertainness is not taking properly into account. So we do not be surprised if choosing new get problems together. Like the current problems with Hawk advanced trainer. Unexpectedly after licensing the aircraft in-house India seeks to buy some tens planes of the same class abroad. It's rather stupid situation, isn't it? So an assessment is needed whether the potential gain worths the political and technical risk. Is the Indian political and industrial elite skilled enough to manage the risk of deep cooperation with US, GB etc. countries with doubtful Indian records?

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 24 Sep 2009 19:33

Igorr wrote: Is the Indian political and industrial elite skilled enough to manage the risk of deep cooperation with US, GB etc. countries with doubtful Indian records?

I would put it in different way. It is not related to skill set of Indian Industries. With Arihant / BMs / Anti BMs, it is not something that is to be doubted.
Rather, the risk is the trust we place on the co operating partner who will leave us in the middle and derail the project. Sooner or later we will accomplish it like we are doing it in LCA / Kaveri / Arjun. But the question is can we afford the delay?

-Nitin

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 24 Sep 2009 21:27

We spend more than 20 years developing one engine.. and that is yet to show the required thurst ...
Was it a good idea if we tried to develop a family of engines, say kaveri, little bigger kaveri with more thrust and even bigger one.. instead of modifying LCA for a foreign engine may be we would have got an option to fit the 'little bigger kaveri' in LCA .. a wild dream

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Sep 2009 22:22

abhi.enggr wrote: exactly my point ...........
also if the rd33k engine is powering the mig-29 family and are sucessfully operational in mig-29k/kub then why not tejas lca.
also although iam not confirmed on the IR signature but i havenot found anything which says that f-414 and ej200 don't have them.....
and actually since the deciding factor according to design team is thrust and power then we should be comparing that instead of IR signature firsthand.........

there were some very good reasons for not going with the RD-33 or its derivatives at the time of the LCA engine selection initially. I'm not a proponent of the LCA having flown with the RD-33 unlike you, so your points and my points are not the same- I'm just clarifying with the other poster that IR signature was not an issue that led to the RD-33 not being selected. all engines with AB have a big plume, which means a big IR signature. period. actually even without AB, there is a very big IR signature on any fighter jet's tail pipe and airframe as a result of atmospheric heating due to drag

there were other far more important issues, such as the large smoke trail, poor reliability. etc. which are only now being taken care of on the MiG-29K and MiG-35 series. the Tejas does not need the RD-33 MK, the F-414 or the EJ200 are both better and lighter. as far as thrust and potential growth are concerned, these two engines have margin for growth.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Sep 2009 22:28

RameshC wrote:well the mig-29's IR signature is much higher than the F-18SH's, you dont need sources just watch a few videos of the mig-35/29ovt and SH..there is a difference. plus the mig engine is more smokey as well.

what !? are you joking ? you are able to tell that the IR signature of an aircraft (which by the way, constitutes more than just its plume and includes airframe heating as well) just by looking at Youtube videos of the two aircraft and try to pass it off as a fact ? won't work on BRF my friend. that the MiG-29's earlier RD-33 engine was smoky is well known. that doesn't correspond to IR signature however- it adds to the VISUAL signature of the MiG-29, which is without a doubt, considerably worse than any other fighter.

just to give you an idea, of how an IR seeker would not be so greatly affected by IR signatures of different types of aircraft, look at the picture below. IIR seekers will even more clearly differentiate that aircraft's IR signature from background IR signature, whether its an EJ200, F-414 or RD-33 equipped fighter won't matter. they glow in the IR spectrum, enough for a very nice tight lock-on and unless you use flares and chaff or some very innovative IR reduction measures, an engine choice won't matter in this regard.

image link

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 24 Sep 2009 22:37

RameshC wrote: well the mig-29's IR signature is much higher than the F-18SH's, you dont need sources just watch a few videos of the mig-35/29ovt and SH..there is a difference. plus the mig engine is more smokey as well.

if i would be there to test which aircraft has higher infra red signature i won't trust until i put my hand inside to test heat by wearing heat protective glove just after engine is switched off

by the way if engine is smoky it doesn't mean it has higher heat signature,but this smokiness of rd33 engine is long gone

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 24 Sep 2009 22:47

Kartik wrote: there were some very good reasons for not going with the RD-33 or its derivatives at the time of the LCA engine selection initially. I'm not a proponent of the LCA having flown with the RD-33 unlike you, so your points and my points are not the same- I'm just clarifying with the other poster that IR signature was not an issue that led to the RD-33 not being selected. all engines with AB have a big plume, which means a big IR signature. period. actually even without AB, there is a very big IR signature on any fighter jet's tail pipe and airframe as a result of atmospheric heating due to drag

actually in early 90s rd33 engine wasn't upto mark as you mentioned above and had only 800 hours of life so ADA choosed to fit f404 on LCA but unfortunately they did not look at any other western engine available at that time and this was unfortunate

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 25 Sep 2009 01:27

The EJ200 engine is smoky as well, my friends. It's may be less in some degree than the classic RD-33, but significant enough. Look this airshow with EF2000 display on 2.10, 2.20 etc.

Andf414 1,109 kg is still more heavy than RD-33 1,055 kg.

Baldev wrote: unfortunately they did not look at any other western engine available at that time and this was unfortunate

Hmm... what western engines were avilable then in 8-9 kN class?

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 25 Sep 2009 02:14

Igorr wrote:The EJ200 engine is smoky as well, my friends. It's may be less in some degree than the classic RD-33, but significant enough. Look this airshow with EF2000 display on 2.10, 2.20 etc.

Andf414 1,109 kg is still more heavy than RD-33 1,055 kg.
Baldev wrote: unfortunately they did not look at any other western engine available at that time and this was unfortunate
Hmm... what western engines were avilable then in 8-9 kN class?

1. You mean 80-90kN right?
2. Good thing that F414 is the likely winner...dont want to replace a chain smoker (RD) with a social smoker (EJ)
3. F414 is slightly heavier, but it also produces appreciably more thrust than the EJ and the RD

F414>EJ200>RD33
98 kN>90 kN>81.3 kN
So for an additional 54kgs we get ~20% more thrust, not to mention growth potential etc.

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 25 Sep 2009 02:28

RameshC wrote:well the mig-29's IR signature is much higher than the F-18SH's, you dont need sources just watch a few videos of the mig-35/29ovt and SH..there is a difference. plus the mig engine is more smokey as well.

Ha ha ha

Go easy mate and think before you type.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 25 Sep 2009 03:22

Raveen wrote: You mean 80-90kN right?

Right. Cannot remember any fighter engine in this class 20 years ago with except of RD-33 and f404.

And RD-33MK with 9 t thrust weights as F414 but 'no-no' for smoking at all. Interesting, how much the cost difference with f414 and EJ200? I donno...

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Sep 2009 03:39

Igorr wrote:
Raveen wrote: You mean 80-90kN right?
Right. Cannot remember any fighter engine in this class 20 years ago with except of RD-33 and f404.

And RD-33MK with 9 t thrust weights as F414 but 'no-no' for smoking at all. Interesting, how much the cost difference with f414 and EJ200? I donno...

you mean turbofans right ? then there's the Mirage-2000's Snecma M-53 engine..it was a turbofan that generated dry thrust of 64.7 kN (6,600 kgp / 14,500 lbf) and afterburning thrust of 95.1 kN (9,700 kgp / 21,400 lbf) per wikipedia.

and the RD-33 with a weight of 1050 kgs (per wiki) has a max. thrust of 81 kN in AB. thats lower than what the current F-404 IN20 engine has. and the thrust to weight ratio of even the RD-33 MK is lower than that of the F-414 and the EJ200. both are better options as far as the LCA goes.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 25 Sep 2009 06:51

Kartik wrote:you mean turbofans right ? then there's the Mirage-2000's Snecma M-53 engine..it was a turbofan that generated dry thrust of 64.7 kN (6,600 kgp / 14,500 lbf) and afterburning thrust of 95.1 kN (9,700 kgp / 21,400 lbf) per wikipedia.

and the RD-33 with a weight of 1050 kgs (per wiki) has a max. thrust of 81 kN in AB. thats lower than what the current F-404 IN20 engine has. and the thrust to weight ratio of even the RD-33 MK is lower than that of the F-414 and the EJ200. both are better options as far as the LCA goes.

M-53 P2 engine has weight of 1515kg this makes m2000 with empty weight of 7.5 tons
so if IAF has no problem with M2000 thrust/weight ratio then LCA being lighter than M2000 requires less powerful engine

on the other hand F414 got same dimensions as of F404
and EJ2000 has smaller diameter

F414 engine need larger airflow for which engine air intake need to be redesigned but same is true for EJ2000 engine as well

so it will be good to compare air intakes size for engines on F18E and typhoon

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 25 Sep 2009 08:23

T/W is not the only consideration...as discussed previously...with a similar example:

try pushing a motorcycle with 1 avg male ~80kgs with 35hp
and a 10'x10' wall ~ 80kgs with same power

boils down to aerodynamic efficiency
I am not saying the aero difference between the LCA and the other A/C is that significant but obviously due to lower lift/higher drag or some other aero considerations the LCA needs more thrust for similar performance envelope...and that is expected since this is our first attempt at a flying swiss army knife that does everything

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 25 Sep 2009 10:50

Igorr wrote:BTW, the first thing the new US administration did, it prevented Israel from participation in MMRCA as a sub-partner. Could be said that their intentions are very clear, couldn't it?

Absolutely.

USA tried much to stop Russians transferring cry tech. to India, but failed. Russians went ahead and provided tech. secrets under cover of "consultancy". That's what friends do.

USA kept Israel out of MRCA exactly for same reason. They don't want India to get the best technology from others but want them to depend on USA congress power empire.

Intentions of Americans is not giving us ToT, but they want to build a corrupt weapons lobby in Delhi, who can kill domestic R&D and sends Indian taxpayer money in non-stop manner to West.

Babus in MoD and their families are having good times in Videsh.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Sep 2009 10:53

russia didn't provide cryo tech, only seven cryo rockets. tech transfer was blocked under MTCR.
ISRO cryo stage which will be in GSLV Mk2 later this year was developed in-house.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 25 Sep 2009 11:07

Rahul M wrote:russia didn't provide cryo tech, only seven cryo rockets. tech transfer was blocked under MTCR.
ISRO cryo stage which will be in GSLV Mk2 later this year was developed in-house.

Consultancy is not 'tech-transfer'. That was for public consumption. Do you expect to ISRO to come out and show balls to USA?

The Russians provided consultancy on Cryo tech. and was paid too by adjustment.

Same is case with ATV project. There is Russian help in it too.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Sep 2009 11:10

AFAIK it was consultancy and NOT tech transfer. perhaps you have a better source ?

oops ! OT. reply in space thread please.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 25 Sep 2009 11:12

Rahul M wrote:AFAIK it was consultancy and NOT tech transfer.

Who said 'tech-transfer'? I said Consultancy only. Bad boy Russians.

RameshC · Post by **RameshC** » 25 Sep 2009 12:11

Asit P wrote:
RameshC wrote:well the mig-29's IR signature is much higher than the F-18SH's, you dont need sources just watch a few videos of the mig-35/29ovt and SH..there is a difference. plus the mig engine is more smokey as well.

Ha ha ha

Go easy mate and think before you type.

think before i type...no need i have seen the mig and the f-18SH at air shows, i have captured their IR signatures on my HD camera that has IR capability, the mig's IR is much higher because of the engine but also the way the nozzels are shaped. plus the mig does spew more black smoke when its flies around, dont try to convince me of what i know for a fact. the SH's engine has almost no visible smoke, though it too has a bluish big IR signature. babus in videsh??? well take a good look around your own family or friends, i am sure you know someone who ran off to work, study or settle in the US, why you complaining??? you can count the number of Indians in Russian on any given day with your fingers. 9 indian orgin people live and work in the white house. atleast the US president sees an Indian face everyday morning, how many Indians does Putin see everyday??

smokey ness long gone...hahah...good joke...
mig-29 ovt same engine as the mig-35...shityy..so much smoke black smoke..far more than the EF, SH, rafale put together. besides why talk about an engine taht doesnt meet thrust requirement. EJ2000 barely meets it and GE just about meets it too and you want an egine thats below 90KN, thanx but no thanx. plus GE's F414 on the SH is undergoing testing with Bio-fuel blends thus reducing the cost of fuel per flight, its a lot greener engine. the EF's smoke is nothing compared to the mig.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/253062/mig_29_ovt/

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 25 Sep 2009 12:17

RameshC wrote:9 indian orgin people live and work in the white house. atleast the US president sees an Indian face everyday morning,

If true we need to keep them as far as possible from Indian Media. Can you please tell the names of those 9 guys ?

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 25 Sep 2009 12:35

RameshC wrote: i have captured their IR signatures on my HD camera that has IR capability, the mig's IR is much higher because of the engine but also the way the nozzels are shaped

Please post them. I am sure there are more than a few people here who would like to see said IR signatures.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 25 Sep 2009 12:58

RameshC wrote:well take a good look around your own family or friends, i am sure you know someone who ran off to work, study or settle in the US, why you complaining??? you can count the number of Indians in Russian on any given day with your fingers. 9 indian orgin people live and work in the white house. atleast the US president sees an Indian face everyday morning, how many Indians does Putin see everyday??

Wow, I never thought of this angle to decide who our strategic partner should be. BTW what was the proportion in 1971. Going by the logic it would have been reverse than...

-Nitin

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 25 Sep 2009 12:59

RameshC wrote:9 indian orgin people live and work in the white house. atleast the US president sees an Indian face everyday morning,

And, you want India to work for White house?

During Mughal Rule, Islamic master used to see an Indian face even before going to Loo. And, there were many "faithful" Indians taking pride in that "esteemed" status. Same was the case with British Rule. These faithful Indians "cried" when British declared they are leaving India.

Wake up mate. Open your eyes. By the way, are you an NRI?

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 25 Sep 2009 13:11

shravan wrote:If true we need to keep them as far as possible from Indian Media. Can you please tell the names of those 9 guys ?

True.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Sep 2009 13:30

Guys, please don't go OT to White House and Indians working there.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 25 Sep 2009 13:42

vishwakarmaa wrote:By the way, are you an NRI?

What this has to do with LCA dicussion? Or are you trying to say something else??

PS: We are disucssing about setting up R&D, get tech, LCA and buying MRCA etc. Some part of it is coming via NRI's only.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 25 Sep 2009 14:32

RKumar wrote:PS: We are disucssing about setting up R&D, get tech, LCA and buying MRCA etc. Some part of it is coming via NRI's only.

You mean, one of the 9 in WhiteHouse?

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 25 Sep 2009 16:48

vishwakarmaa wrote:You mean, one of the 9 in WhiteHouse?

Those are not NRIs.... those are Indian-Americans. According to you we have only those 9 country betrayed, corrupt, loathing to have hands on phoran items, miserable NRIs (Non Required Indians).

I thought we have more then that intelligent, patriotic, brilliant, professional, highly successfully NRIs. I agree many could fit into your given definition of NRIs but not all. But wait a minute, there are lot and lot of such people are in India also. Where I should start and where I should stop? May be you have some suggestions?

You are just one frustrated little guy, who is bypassing his frustration on others. There are NRIs/Indian-Americans/Indian-Europeans more patriotic then you are. So you stop behaving like a moron.

If you want to discuss something positive, you are welcome. Otherwise do not divided the community, whatever for your personal reasons might be.

Money sent by NRI
Statstics money sent to India from 2000-2007

Year-------------2000-----2001------2002-----2003-----2004-----2005------2006-------2007
(US$ million)----12,890---14,273----15,736---20,999---18,750---21,293----25,426*----27,000

Migration & Remittances Factbook 2008

The top recipient of migrant remittances in 2008 was India ($52 billion)

PS: Indian born person living outside India for more then 6 months is awarded status of NRI (Non Resident Indian).

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 25 Sep 2009 17:23

RKumar wrote:
vishwakarmaa wrote:You mean, one of the 9 in WhiteHouse?
Those are not NRIs.... those are Indian-Americans. According to you we have only those 9 country betrayed, corrupt, loathing to have hands on phoran items, miserable NRIs (Non Required Indians).

I thought we have more then that intelligent, patriotic, brilliant, professional, highly successfully NRIs. I agree many could fit into your given definition of NRIs but not all. But wait a minute, there are lot and lot of such people are in India also. Where I should start and where I should stop? May be you have some suggestions?

You are just one frustrated little guy, who is bypassing his frustration on others. There are NRIs/Indian-Americans/Indian-Europeans more patriotic then you are. So you stop behaving like a moron.

If you want to discuss something positive, you are welcome. Otherwise do not divided the community, whatever for your personal reasons might be.

PS: Indian born person living outside India for more then 6 months is awarded status of NRI (Non Resident Indian).

It was someone on this thread saying that 9 Indian-Americans work in White house. I was only reminding him of Indian history. That's OT anyway.

So, why it makes you so angry if I ask him if he is NRI? Whats wrong in asking?

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 25 Sep 2009 17:33

vishwakarmaa wrote:
RKumar wrote: Those are not NRIs.... those are Indian-Americans. According to you we have only those 9 country betrayed, corrupt, loathing to have hands on phoran items, miserable NRIs (Non Required Indians).

I thought we have more then that intelligent, patriotic, brilliant, professional, highly successfully NRIs. I agree many could fit into your given definition of NRIs but not all. But wait a minute, there are lot and lot of such people are in India also. Where I should start and where I should stop? May be you have some suggestions?

You are just one frustrated little guy, who is bypassing his frustration on others. There are NRIs/Indian-Americans/Indian-Europeans more patriotic then you are. So you stop behaving like a moron.

If you want to discuss something positive, you are welcome. Otherwise do not divided the community, whatever for your personal reasons might be.

PS: Indian born person living outside India for more then 6 months is awarded status of NRI (Non Resident Indian).
It was someone on this thread saying that 9 Indian-Americans work in White house. I was only reminding him of Indian history. That's OT anyway.

So, why it makes you so angry if I ask him if he is NRI? Whats wrong in asking?

Becasue it is irrelevant to this thread, to this forum and any discussions that might take place here; it also does not decide his level of patriotism and dedication to India and most importantly it is none of your business. Please stop your rant and get this thread back on track.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 25 Sep 2009 17:34

vishwakarmaa wrote:
RKumar wrote:PS: We are disucssing about setting up R&D, get tech, LCA and buying MRCA etc. Some part of it is coming via NRI's only.
You mean, one of the 9 in WhiteHouse?

This made me upset .....

vishwakarmaa wrote: So, why it makes you so angry if I ask him if he is NRI? Whats wrong in asking?

Are you trying to act 'victimized' so you can pressurize Mods to ban me?

I am not requesting to Mods to ban you. I am requesting lets discuss what is relevant and positive and leave the crap a side. We are already struggling with division based on states, language, religion, cast on top of corruption in the nation. So let do not add a new cast NRI.

Added Later, I am happy that I have cleared my intentions before the warning is issued against me. Although I don't agree that it is right but I respect the decision of the authority and accept it.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 25 Sep 2009 17:34

RKumar wrote:
vishwakarmaa wrote:By the way, are you an NRI?
What this has to do with LCA dicussion? Or are you trying to say something else??

PS: We are disucssing about setting up R&D, get tech, LCA and buying MRCA etc. Some part of it is coming via NRI's only.

Including the guys who spent more than 6 months in the US (thus are NRIs) and sent back those Intel processors.

archan · Post by **archan** » 25 Sep 2009 17:37

RKumar wrote:So you stop behaving like a moron.

Now this deserves a warning. Not that others, whom you are indulging in this war of words are not guilty, they just have not crossed the line yet.
Let this be a warning to others who are pursuing the line of Indians working in whitehouse, and the one who retorted with the Mughal emperor and his loo habits. You guys have seriously brought the level of BRF discussion down and you can be warned/banned anytime.
And anyone who asks about other members' location (are you an NRI?), status or any other personal detail is a culprit in my book. So take a deep breath and relax unless you like the proverbial soosai vest.

Note to the person reporting the posts: There is no need to report 4 posts in quick succession. One is enough. And someone posting a

smiley does not make for an offensive post, someone calling another person a moron does. This entire discussion is garbage in the LCA thread.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 25 Sep 2009 17:41

vishwakarmaa wrote:
Rahul M wrote:russia didn't provide cryo tech, only seven cryo rockets. tech transfer was blocked under MTCR.
ISRO cryo stage which will be in GSLV Mk2 later this year was developed in-house.
Consultancy is not 'tech-transfer'. That was for public consumption. Do you expect to ISRO to come out and show balls to USA?

The Russians provided consultancy on Cryo tech. and was paid too by adjustment.

Same is case with ATV project. There is Russian help in it too.

Please provide credible, verifiable sources in relevant thread for all your claims.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 25 Sep 2009 17:51

Lets get back to LCA please.

Looking at the length and diameter of F-404 and F-414 engine of GE , they are exactly the same (although global security and wiki are not exactly the best sources) , the idle time would be absolutely minimal for LCA supply line if no structural changes are required , so for an engine with greater thrust and weight what major adjustments (if any) would be needed in the LCA.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 25 Sep 2009 18:52

Nihat wrote:Lets get back to LCA please.

Looking at the length and diameter of F-404 and F-414 engine of GE , they are exactly the same (although global security and wiki are not exactly the best sources) , the idle time would be absolutely minimal for LCA supply line if no structural changes are required , so for an engine with greater thrust and weight what major adjustments (if any) would be needed in the LCA.

Hello Nihat,

There was a discussion in BR on this topic. Please check this http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3&p=667875

Hope it helps

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 25 Sep 2009 20:35

Official figures -

Kaveri Engine—Salient Features

By-pass ratio : 0.2-0.24
Overall pressure ratio : 21.5
Turbine entry temperature (flat-rated) : 1487-1700 K
Maximum thrust (dry)-IRA, SL : 52 kN
Maximum thrust with afterburner-IRA, SL : 81 kN
SFC (dry) : 0.78 kg/h/kg
Maximum SFC with afterburner : 2.03 kg/h/kg
Thrust/weight ratio : 7.8

IMO, IAF is being dumbhead by killing first version of Indian made kaveri engine. Even Russia and West wasn't able to achieve this much in their first 20 years of engine development.

Instead of whining, IAF should invest their own funds in this programme and hire better desi talent to improve the designs, metallurgy, manufacturing processes with help from private industry. We will never need to "import" any engines for our fighter aircrafts if Kaveri project achieves that extra 20%.

One of reason of Kaveri lacking that 20% performance is, GTRE's isolation from latest technologies in Indian private machine tooling industries, due to stupid "project secrecy" laws IMPOSED by our dumb babus. These secrecy laws are killing many other projects in DRDO.

In USA and Russia, best ideas from their industries are absorbed into their engine programmes while in India, GoI imposes secrecy laws on GTRE so kaveri misses the inputs from private industry. How one can expect them to succeed when babus are bent upon killing it?

Asking for foreign inputs is not a good move.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 25 Sep 2009 20:47

KAveri delivers 81KN. IAF asks for 95KN. So target is missed by 17%.

This is totally acceptable because DRDO's technology base(metallurgy, experience in engine science, precision manufacturing tools available) is not same as that of USA. So, its hilarious that how IAF can ask for same performance characteristics from Kaveri?

DRDO has made an engine which matches Indian technology base. In my opinion, it surpasses it! Its spectacular.

IAF is expecting an engine which matches American technology base.

In My opinion, IAF is not interested in domestic engines and purely trying to kill it and buy foreign goodies. Unless, this mentality changes, nothing will succeed in Indian defense projects.

Same can be said about Arjun project. Army's expectations are of "heaven" and they lack maturity to understand that their demands should match our R&D base and go with time. You will get better if you support and work together with scientists, give them inputs rather than whining in media.

Rather than supporting and encouraging what we have made, our armed forces top brass is bent upon killing the base created by DRDO. Its pathetic of them!

archan · Post by **archan** » 25 Sep 2009 21:15

RameshC wrote: think before i type...no need i have seen the mig and the f-18SH at air shows, i have captured their IR signatures on my HD camera that has IR capability, the mig's IR is much higher because of the engine but also the way the nozzels are shaped. plus the mig does spew more black smoke when its flies around, dont try to convince me of what i know for a fact. the SH's engine has almost no visible smoke, though it too has a bluish big IR signature. babus in videsh??? well take a good look around your own family or friends, i am sure you know someone who ran off to work, study or settle in the US, why you complaining??? you can count the number of Indians in Russian on any given day with your fingers. 9 indian orgin people live and work in the white house. atleast the US president sees an Indian face everyday morning, how many Indians does Putin see everyday??

smokey ness long gone...hahah...good joke...
mig-29 ovt same engine as the mig-35...shityy..so much smoke black smoke..far more than the EF, SH, rafale put together. besides why talk about an engine taht doesnt meet thrust requirement. EJ2000 barely meets it and GE just about meets it too and you want an egine thats below 90KN, thanx but no thanx. plus GE's F414 on the SH is undergoing testing with Bio-fuel blends thus reducing the cost of fuel per flight, its a lot greener engine. the EF's smoke is nothing compared to the mig.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/253062/mig_29_ovt/

1) If you are going to debate on issues related to fighter jets, it might be better to post like grown ups do. Going off on tangents about people "running off to phoren lands" is an open flame bait which has been used many times.
2) mind you language again. I am issuing a warning for this one.