Chandrayan-1 moon mission

[MurthyB]

Before ISRO makes claims about the MIP detecting water too, they probably need to address the calibration issue. In the NASA press conf. the issue was that anything that leaves the Earth has a certain amount of moisture clinging to it. So those spectrometers were detecting water even in stars. The claim is that they had to do some three-way calibration to rule out the signature coming from the onboard instrument itself. For the MIP data to also confirm it, they also need to probably address that issue.

Congrats to ISRO on this landmark discovery. However, it does seem like ISRO was the guide that took the instrument there and it's obviously NASA's instrument and analysis that cinched the deal. Kinda like all those western palenontologists who go to god-forsaken places, and obviously need local help to cart them around, do the excavation etc., but finally recognizing what was found and dating it, analyzing it is the paleontologists achievement. It's not clear whether ISRO had a role in analyzing any of the M3 data, or other insights such as calibration and validation of the data. But it is certainly a great achievement to be associated with the greatest space physics institutions in the world: NASA and JPL.

[Amit Singh]

Agreed MurthyB.

Here's more stupidity from DDM:

One thinks if they even go to journalism school.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 057854.cms

Indian Space Research Organisation may have stolen the thunder of discovering water on the
Moon.

The Moon Impact Probe on Chandrayaan-I appears to have sensed water earlier than Nasa's Moon Minerolgy Mapper (M3) but protocol did not allow ISRO to declare the discovery. While MIP detected water molecules on November 14, 2008, just 22 days after Chandrayaan-1's launch, M3 did so in March 2009.

J S Goswami, principal investigator for Chandrayaan-1, told TOI: ``We had indications of water on November 14, the day MIP crash-landed on the Moon. It sensed some sort of water molecules. We were absolutely delighted but it had to be corroborated. Without international examination and cross-examination and confirmation of the evidence, it would not have been right on our part to go public about it.''

Also, ISRO should either have published their findings independently, if they had corroborating evidence from MIP.They had 10 months to do it. While NASA got results in June and it published it in only 3 months.

It does not befit a nation's leading newspaper to publish headlines like these especially when a Nation's reputation is at stake.

[pgbhat]

The "Water on the Moon" Hoopla, Part 1: There's water on the Moon! one of my favorite blogs ..... because of pictures of space of course.

[Anujan]

Mt. Holyoke College and College of Charleston are not even tier III I think.

Sometimes scientists "retire" and take up part-time teaching positions in community colleges. Happens all the time. If you dig deeper, you might find some retired NASA scientist, who was part of the mission before he retired, who now teaches at this place.

[hnair]

Where are the equivalent Indian ones for an Indian mission. This is why there had to be six foreign payloads. Not enough response to request for payload proposals. We need to fix this. Not even a single IIT as a partner for CY-I mission. Our weakness shows right there.

True that. IIRC, the IIST was proposed by ISRO to rectify some of those issues in a more focused manner. They have a BTech for Physical Sciences, which apparently cover Planetary Science areas. But I am not sure they have any PG/Phd programs for the same.

Then again, due to Khan's halo effect, a "community college with creeper overgrowth" = TFTA Ivy League. Particularly when sitting in India.

Sometimes scientists "retire" and take up part-time teaching positions in community colleges. Happens all the time. If you dig deeper, you might find some retired NASA scientist, who was part of the mission before he retired, who now teaches at this place.

Anujan-saar, straight out of movie "Evolution"

[pgbhat]

Sometimes scientists "retire" and take up part-time teaching positions in community colleges. Happens all the time. If you dig deeper, you might find some retired NASA scientist, who was part of the mission before he retired, who now teaches at this place.

I wanted to convey the same point...... The prof I used to be an RA was actually retired from NASA's Stennis Space center....less said about my univ ranking the better. .... compare this with faculty in desh.... we need more PhD and Masters.

[shaardula]

Then again, due to Khan's halo effect, a "community college with creeper overgrowth" = TFTA Ivy League. Particularly when sitting in India.

[Raja Bose]

as a former grad student, i express my solidarity to the grad students who actually did all the work and probably did the first inference, before some tfta probessor came and stamped his/her authority all over.

One can be 400% certain that that is exactly what happened and not just limited to 1st inference either - that is the norm in research when one works under the big stars.

The NASA people on the dias were only the privileged lot who either through their administrative role (PI etc.) or name recognition were put on the dias. The 100s (if not 1000s) of brilliant yet unsung scientists, workers, students and post-docs in India and US who made this mission a success are only allowed to stand in the shadows and applaud these leaders.

It is interesting how regardless of which aspect of the mission massa is involved in (whether the instrumentation or providing the spacecraft), it is always spun as "Big Brother NASA" helping out a less fortunate soul (ISRO).

[Raja Bose]

Sometimes scientists "retire" and take up part-time teaching positions in community colleges. Happens all the time. If you dig deeper, you might find some retired NASA scientist, who was part of the mission before he retired, who now teaches at this place.

I wanted to convey the same point...... The prof I used to be an RA was actually retired from NASA's Stennis Space center....less said about my univ ranking the better. .... compare this with faculty in desh.... we need more PhD and Masters.

For matters of research one must look at the specific personnel quality rather than "rankings" of the overall institution. Rankings are only good (and even there of limited value since their neutrality is suspect) for undergrad education. Grad education esp. what is research oriented is a different cup of tea altogether.

I have seen plenty of TFTA Ivy leagues and top engg. schools with pathetic personnel quality in certain research areas who get by into top conferences with their drivel simply because they have the school name brand whereas the same drivel from lesser known places would be rejected out-of-hand. Similarly many smaller places/lesser known places have brilliant people in certain research areas even though the entire university may not be in the top 10/20/30 or even 40.

[pgbhat]

OT but I agree RB.... but desh should generate and sustain MS and PhD grads to increase and improve research....that being said it is very heartening to see outstanding work from org like ISRO where almost all ISRO engineers get gnawlij from studying only in SDRE engineering colleges and I don't think many of them even have PhDs.

[Amit Singh]

Indian Moon Rocket Discovers Water on the Moon — While British Taxpayers Feed India’s Poor
http://bnp.org.uk/2009/09/indian-moon-r ... %99s-poor/

Why are British taxpayers paying £825 million to feed India’s poor while their £52 million spacecraft Chandrayaan-1 has helped discover water on the moon?
This is the question being asked after the US journal Science announced that scientists using detectors aboard the Chandrayaan-1 probe to analyse reflected sunlight showed that there was water on the moon.
While space scientists all over the world celebrated the discovery and its implications, politicians in Britain have remained silent over the fact that India is one of the single largest recipients of foreign aid under the Department for International Development’s (DFID) UK Aid programme.
In terms of national wealth, as measured by purchasing power parity, India’s economy is larger than Britain’s. According to the International Monetary Fund, the Indian economy is worth $3 trillion while Britain’s is worth $2.2 trillion.
Much publicity has been given to a recent announcement by Gordon Brown that £825 million is being given to India for welfare in the Bihar province, but less well known is the fact that British taxpayers had already provided India with £1,045 million in aid over the previous five years.
For example, in August 2009, the DFID announced that it had given £11 million to the Indian state of Madhya Pradesh to provide “an up-to-date, efficient power sector. In practice this involved helping to reorganise the state electricity board, preparing the ground for key regulatory reforms and providing expert technical assistance to power distributors to reduce leakages,” said the DFID.
In addition, the DFIF State spending in social sectors increased from £108 million in 2005–06 to almost £181 million in 2008–09.
According to The Planetary Society, the Chandrayaan-1 rocket cost India $83 million (£52 million).
The Indian government has spent nearly £2 billion buying tanks and its second aircraft carrier. According to the Indian Ministry of Defence, India’s navy has ordered another two aircraft carriers, due to be completed by 2017.
The British National Party says enough is enough. The time has come to close down this foreign aid swindle. Only when there are no more budget deficits, need or want in Britain can thought be given to helping other nations — especially those such as India who are so selfish that they spend millions sending rockets to the moon instead of uplifting their own people.

Angoor....

[tejas]

Thank God for the selfless people of the UQ. BTW that 825 million pounds is over three years. What generosity. At that rate, if we assume said loans are paid back at a less than market interest rate, it should only take ~ 20,000 years to make up for the $ trillions the Brits plundered from India.

This is the third reference to aid I have seen from a British source seen water has been discovered on the moon. I wish the GOI would just return these crumbs (we need FDI not Brit crumbs) and tell these SOBs to f**k off! Please go back to licking Umrikahs boots so you can maintain your pretend deterrent of nuclear weapons with made in America cores placed in American Trident D5 SLBMs on American designed subs.

[hnair]

Indian Moon Rocket Discovers Water on the Moon — While British Taxpayers Feed India’s Poor
http://bnp.org.uk/2009/09/indian-moon-r ... %99s-poor/

Why are British taxpayers paying £825 million to feed India’s poor while their £52 million spacecraft Chandrayaan-1 has helped discover water on the moon?

Angoor....

Oafish. So we are that street bum, whom you gave a pound, but later found giving out time from a Rolex. OK
But then you and what *Navy* are going to take that Rolex this time?

Just to cover the auctioning of other countries' national treasures got by uncertain methods by Christies and Sotheby's, British tax payer needs to cough up much more than that annually. Let alone the gigantic loot that resides in their museums.

[harbans]

CY thing hits me cold on the face. We left things to the real sons of soil. They are the ones that deserve credit any way you imagine.

[munna]

CY thing hits me cold on the face. We left things to the real sons of soil. They are the ones that deserve credit any way you imagine.

Really, it gives me goosebumps just imagining being the guy/gal carrying out the final Lunar orbital maneuvers of Chandrayan-1 and achieving the impossible for the nation with a few flick or taps of some gizmo. I will certainly go mad the day we shall put our first "Gaganaut" in the space on the shoulders of these very humble scientists. They surely give us a lot to look upto!

[shaardula]

"Gaganaut"

is that what they will be called? cool.

[munna]

"Gaganaut"

is that what they will be called? cool.

Actually the name is to be finalized but I heard from birdies that "Gaganaut" and "Nabhnaut" are doing rounds as prospective names of Indian space farers.

[Prem]

I like Nabhyatri or Antrikshyatri.

[ppatil]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_hum ... erminology

The term Aakashagami (meaning 'sky traveller'), is a literary word in Sanskit, similar to word 'Astronaut'. 'Brahmāndagami'(Brahmānda- Space and Gami-traveller) is another Sanskrit word literally meaning 'Space traveller'. However, the name Gaganaut, derived from gagana (meaning 'the heavens' or 'vast sky above us'), has become popular amongst the Indian space community as a term for Indian astronauts. The term Antariksha yaatri has been suggested as a more proper name (antariksha signifies space beyond our Earth and yaatri means 'traveller'), and this is the name used in official documents, as well as the Indian media. Other suggestions include vishvanaut (vishva = world = this reality) and brahmanaut (brahmand = universe).

[sanjaykumar]

ICEAU-Indian carbon-based extra atmospheric unit has a certain ring to it.

[Mort Walker]

Since we're discussing names, I prefer Antrixsena, or space soldier.

[Sanjay M]

I like Antrikshak, and I've heard it being used on news programs.

Anyway, here's the press conference from Nair:

[darshan]

And, Nehrunaut wins.

[ss_roy]

Amit Singh,

Whites have not yet come to grips with their changed status.. they will get there -one way or the other.

[ss_roy]

I prefer astronaut.. why try to inject sanskrit in it.

Ant riksh = devoid of end = universe
astro = astra = tara = star
cosmos = ordered universe

If you want to restore 'classical' india, start with changing names of indian cities named after muslim tyrants.

[Sanjay M]

You can use the word 'astronaut' when conversing in english, and use 'antrikshak' when speaking locally.

We don't always use the word 'car' - sometimes we use non-english words.

[RayC]

Moon Mineralogy Mapper (developed by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration) on board the Indian mission, will be the subject of a press conference, to be addressed by Carle Pieters, planetary geologist and principal investigator of the instrument, at the NASA headquarters on Thursday.

So, it was the NASA equipment that discovered water.

But the TV interviews of the hotshots of Indian space tomtomed on TV as if it was our discovery!!

But the credit is ours?

[Satya_anveshi]

One thing I feel good about is that episode which could have been managed better even in the first instance is that we are learning an important lesson very early in the game. I think the next decade or so is important when the shift will be permanent.

As K Sibal said we need to be knowledge producer and not just consumer. Man...that one statement from him made so much different in my outlook towards him. I hope he is sincerely guided by that vision and may he realize the fruits of his vision and be recognized for it.

[Sanjay M]

Here - the NASA M3 team graciously gave ISRO due credit for its part in the discovery:



So no need for any negativity here. The science community should all be exulting over the discovery itself. There's more than enough glory to go around for everyone.

[Anujan]

Indian Moon Rocket Discovers Water on the Moon — While British Taxpayers Feed India’s Poor

Angoor....

Indian money looted during colonial times used to bail out fraudulent British banks and bankers !!!

[rohiths]

Indian Moon Rocket Discovers Water on the Moon — While British Taxpayers Feed India’s Poor

Angoor....

Indian money looted during colonial times used to bail out fraudulent British banks and bankers !!!

What else can be expected from the Brits! Almost every news article in the BBC shows India in a negative light.
Let the Brits and the rest of the world be ranting about India's poverty. In a way it is good for India. We will not be complacent.
I don't think Brits have the ability to launch a single satellite without US and European aid.
That puts them on the level of Pakis and SUPRACO

[RayC]

Here - the NASA M3 team graciously gave ISRO due credit for its part in the discovery:



So no need for any negativity here. The science community should all be exulting over the discovery itself. There's more than enough glory to go around for everyone.

Indeed. Good for NASA.

The point I am trying to state is that we go overboard with other's discovery just because we are some way even remotely connected.

We should be equally good to be as graceful as the NASA and give them credit rather than with a sleight of hand give the impression that we are the ones who were up and about!

It is like Kenya claiming that they are the sole ‘engineers’ of anything US does well, just because Obama’s father was a Kenyan.

Take the case of Hargobind Khorana. He is taken to be an Indian Nobel Prize Winner. I believe he went abroad before Partition and was born in Raipur, Kabirwala, Khanewal, a village in what is now Pakistan. Now, should Pakistan go to town claiming he is a Pakistani Nobel Prize Winner? Technically, he is even though he left the area what became Pakistan well before the Partition. Is he an Indian Nobel Prize Winner, just because he is a Sikh?

All I am stating is that let us take pride in which we have done something and not merely piggybacking somebody else’s stuff that makes a discovery.

I am of the opinion that one must be factually correct and take credit with both hands where it is due! But I take no pride in someone else’s reflected glory!

Also, if the British are cribbing, they have no reason to do so. They have looted us through the centuries and it is payback time. And anyway, Indians are bigtime in shoring up Britain in educated manpower, unskilled manpower and industry. They can take a running jump!

[vavinash]

Who considers khuranna an Indian? He is considered an american nobel prize laureate.

[sanjaykumar]

Not that it matters, but Khurana is a Hindu (hate to use that term when referencing Panjabis of that generation).

[RayC]

Who considers khuranna an Indian? He is considered an american nobel prize laureate.

I don't.

Others do.

Should have seen the newspapers of those times when he won it.

However, this may help:

Indian Nobel laureates

Sir C.V. Raman studied and did his research in Indian environment and won the prestigious Nobel Prize for his work towards the scattering of light that eventually known as the Raman Effect. He is the only Indian Nobel Literate who stamped his mark in world science without studying at any foreign institution. And this was the year 1930.

Dr. Hargobind Khurana won the Nobel Prize for interpreting the genetic code and analyzing its function towards the protein synthesis. He completed his M.Sc. at Punjab University, Lahore. He lived in India until 1945, when the award of a Govt. Of India Fellowship made it possible for him to go to England for Ph.D. at university of Liverpool. Except a brief period in 1949, he lived and persuaded his career in foreign land. And finally, he received the Nobel Prize in the year 1968.

Subramaniam Chandrasekaran studied in India and received his bachelor degree in Physics in 1930. Then with a scholarship form the Govt. of India, he moved to University of Cambridge. And finally he went to the University of Chicago where he spent the rest of his career. His presence, as well as some other prominent scientists, made the science department of University of Chicago the number one in the United States. The bright students used to flock to the physics department. His devotion to his students was well known. Two of his students were Tsung-Dao Lee and Chen Ning Yang from China won the Nobel Prize in the year 1957 for their work in the particle physics. He was so devoted to these two students that he used to drive one hundred miles regularly to instruct them. Subramaniam Chandrasekaran finally received the Nobel Prize in the year 1983 for his work towards the evolution of stars and the mathematical theory of Black Holes.

Amartya Sen, after received his Ph.D. at Trinity College, Cambridge. He had teaching experience at various universities in abroad and for brief periods in India. He settled down at the London School of Economics in 1971. And in the late 1980s, he moved to United States and choose Harvard University. He received the Nobel Prize in the year 1998 for his work towards welfare economics.

So we can easily conclude that, when it comes to the research in science and technology and other subjects, Indian institutions cannot provide what the foreign lands can.
http://gennextindians.com/Blog/2009/06/ ... laureates/

HARGOBIND KHORANA (1968)

Indian Nobel Prize Winners
The Nobel Prize for Medicine

Dr. Khorana was born in Raipur, Punjab (now in Pakistan). He went abroad to get his doctorate in Chemistry and later settled there. It was his study of the human genetic code and the role it plays in protein synthesis that got him the Nobel Prize.
http://www.indiavisitinformation.com/in ... rize.shtml

Ahh! But they are not official sites, right?

Piggyback to pride all the way!

[kaldag]

Indeed. Good for NASA.

The point I am trying to state is that we go overboard with other's discovery just because we are some way even remotely connected.

We should be equally good to be as graceful as the NASA and give them credit rather than with a sleight of hand give the impression that we are the ones who were up and about!

It is like Kenya claiming that they are the sole ‘engineers’ of anything US does well, just because Obama’s father was a Kenyan.

All I am stating is that let us take pride in which we have done something and not merely piggybacking somebody else’s stuff that makes a discovery.

I am of the opinion that one must be factually correct and take credit with both hands where it is due! But I take no pride in someone else’s reflected glory!

RayC Sir, we should not look much into the headlines/reporting of TOI.
Madhavan Nair was graceful enough in that press conference. Besides, getting a free ride to the moon doesn't come cheap. In that sense we should not ignore the contribution of ISRO (read India). That way, we are not just "remotely connected".

Once the data from MIP is made public it will give us more reasons to rejoice.

[RayC]

Indeed. Good for NASA.

The point I am trying to state is that we go overboard with other's discovery just because we are some way even remotely connected.

We should be equally good to be as graceful as the NASA and give them credit rather than with a sleight of hand give the impression that we are the ones who were up and about!

It is like Kenya claiming that they are the sole ‘engineers’ of anything US does well, just because Obama’s father was a Kenyan.

All I am stating is that let us take pride in which we have done something and not merely piggybacking somebody else’s stuff that makes a discovery.

I am of the opinion that one must be factually correct and take credit with both hands where it is due! But I take no pride in someone else’s reflected glory!

RayC Sir, we should not look much into the headlines/reporting of TOI.
Madhavan Nair was graceful enough in that press conference. Besides, getting a free ride to the moon doesn't come cheap. In that sense we should not ignore the contribution of ISRO (read India). That way, we are not just "remotely connected".

Once the data from MIP is made public it will give us more reasons to rejoice.

I agree with you.

However, with that line of argument, Russia would claim that they won the war for India in 1965 and 1971 because we were using their manufactured equipment. Our own (Indian) efforts were just secondary!

I am all for India's pride being upheld, but not on a reflected glory and that is all that I have to say!

I maybe wrong, but even if we take foreign technology and use it to develop it to our own, there is credit to it. However, just because I have met Igor Tamm and Neils Bohr, Chou en Lai or Haldane, Nehru does not mean I am comparable to them! No chance. And I have met them, because of circumstances of the unique environment I was placed in!

My humble request is that we should stand on our own two feet and forget the reflected glory and even if we have to share it, let us share it will good grace and not total falsehood and hoodwinking!

It is just my view. If others are satisfied with the way Nair went about to capitalise on reflected glory and claim indirectly it is all because of Indians, who am I to complain?

Was it a free ride for NASA? Did they not pay? I am not aware!

[pgbhat]

RayC sir may be this will help.

Moon Mineralogy Mapper - TEAM - Partners & Contributors Partners & Contributors

The ISRO will implement the Chandrayaan-1 Mission. The Mission will launch in March 2008 and conduct remote sensing during the 2-year mission 100 km above the lunar surface. Based upon a white paper presented to ISRO in March 2004, ISRO selected the Brown University PI lead, JPL managed Moon Mineralogy Mapper Instrument and Investigation as one of the science payload instruments on Chandrayaan-1. This selection is contingent upon NASA selecting, developing and delivering the M3 Instrument to ISRO for integration on their spacecraft. ISRO allocated spacecraft resources (power, mass, data bandwidth, mechanical envelope, and location) for the Instrument, and we are easily accommodated by those resource allocations. The participation by M3 on the Chandrayaan-1 Mission is on a "no-exchange-of-funds" basis.

The Brown University PI will contribute management leadership for the development of the hardware for the Investigation and science leadership and science data analysis support.

The JPL will provide Instrument hardware development and analysis, testing, support to integrate the Instrument with the spacecraft, and support Instrument operations during Phase E. JPL's responsibilities include:

• 1. Provide day-to-day management and coordination of the U.S. portion by the JPL Instrument Project Manager, including monitoring and reporting technical progress and financial status and performing the critical reviews - a System Requirements Review, a Preliminary Design Review, a Critical Design Review, a Pre-ship Readiness Review, and an Operations Readiness Review.
  2. Design, analyze, build and test the M3 Instrument for launch on the ISRO launch vehicle and operations in the lunar orbit environment.
  3. Deliver the M3 Instrument for integration with the Chandrayaan-1 spacecraft, support the Instrument integration and test at the spacecraft and space vehicle levels.
  4. Support the operations of the Instrument during Phase E and manage science data archiving, Level 1 processing and distribution to the PI lead Science Team.

[JimmyJ]

The Brahmand is vast, so if first is all about coming on the TV first, there is one hell oppurtunities waiting for us. But the focus must be on generating new information as our minister said.

I found the NASA lady shell shocked after taking the questions on ndtv, but I must say Mr Madhavan Nair didn't fall for the trick and ensured to give a good comment on NASA. Afterall he knows our media for real long time and knows how to handle ut.

[RayC]

RayC sir may be this will help.

Moon Mineralogy Mapper - TEAM - Partners & Contributors Partners & Contributors

The ISRO will implement the Chandrayaan-1 Mission. The Mission will launch in March 2008 and conduct remote sensing during the 2-year mission 100 km above the lunar surface. Based upon a white paper presented to ISRO in March 2004, ISRO selected the Brown University PI lead, JPL managed Moon Mineralogy Mapper Instrument and Investigation as one of the science payload instruments on Chandrayaan-1. This selection is contingent upon NASA selecting, developing and delivering the M3 Instrument to ISRO for integration on their spacecraft. ISRO allocated spacecraft resources (power, mass, data bandwidth, mechanical envelope, and location) for the Instrument, and we are easily accommodated by those resource allocations. The participation by M3 on the Chandrayaan-1 Mission is on a "no-exchange-of-funds" basis.

The Brown University PI will contribute management leadership for the development of the hardware for the Investigation and science leadership and science data analysis support.

The JPL will provide Instrument hardware development and analysis, testing, support to integrate the Instrument with the spacecraft, and support Instrument operations during Phase E. JPL's responsibilities include:

• 1. Provide day-to-day management and coordination of the U.S. portion by the JPL Instrument Project Manager, including monitoring and reporting technical progress and financial status and performing the critical reviews - a System Requirements Review, a Preliminary Design Review, a Critical Design Review, a Pre-ship Readiness Review, and an Operations Readiness Review.
  2. Design, analyze, build and test the M3 Instrument for launch on the ISRO launch vehicle and operations in the lunar orbit environment.
  3. Deliver the M3 Instrument for integration with the Chandrayaan-1 spacecraft, support the Instrument integration and test at the spacecraft and space vehicle levels.
  4. Support the operations of the Instrument during Phase E and manage science data archiving, Level 1 processing and distribution to the PI lead Science Team.

Then say so.

It is outsourced!

And that we have bought it outright!