Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 28 Sep 2009 10:28

I have 1 question.

Will any future Su-30 MKI or the MIG-29K have an AESA radar?

Dhanyawaad.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 28 Sep 2009 10:34

VijayKumarSinha wrote:I have 1 question.

Will any future Su-30 MKI or the MIG-29K have an AESA radar?

Dhanyawaad.

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2009/08/i ... ukhoi.html

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 28 Sep 2009 10:42

DM Thanks alot, Is the Mig-29, especially the carrier based Mig-29K likely to have an AESA radar?

SagarP · Post by **SagarP** » 01 Oct 2009 00:22

Please excuse my ignorance but could anyone tell that if India possesses any high-impulse thermobaric weapons or fuel-air bombs of the same category as MOAB/FOAB or even daisy cutters for that matter.

I remember that during operation dessert storm a whole iraqi battalion surrendered when a US colonel threatened to use a daisy cutter on the theatre.

Many thanks!!!!

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 01 Oct 2009 01:04

VijayKumarSinha wrote:DM Thanks alot, Is the Mig-29, especially the carrier based Mig-29K likely to have an AESA radar?

No Mig-29 has an AESA radar till date and I don't think there is one under development either. Although once the Mig-35's radar is productionized I don't see any reason (other than lack of will) why it can't be integrated with the Mig-29 since they are more or less the same bird.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 01 Oct 2009 02:15

Raveen wrote:
VijayKumarSinha wrote:DM Thanks alot, Is the Mig-29, especially the carrier based Mig-29K likely to have an AESA radar?
No Mig-29 has an AESA radar till date and I don't think there is one under development either. Although once the Mig-35's radar is productionized I don't see any reason (other than lack of will) why it can't be integrated with the Mig-29 since they are more or less the same bird.

Thank You, very much Raveen. The reason why I asked that question was because this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EL/M-2052

says that 2052 is suitable for Mig-29's. So, I wanted to know why it would say that, if there were none in operation or meant to be added?

Thanks

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 01 Oct 2009 02:34

VijayKumarSinha wrote:
Raveen wrote: No Mig-29 has an AESA radar till date and I don't think there is one under development either. Although once the Mig-35's radar is productionized I don't see any reason (other than lack of will) why it can't be integrated with the Mig-29 since they are more or less the same bird.
Thank You, very much Raveen. The reason why I asked that question was because this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EL/M-2052

says that 2052 is suitable for Mig-29's. So, I wanted to know why it would say that, if there were none in operation or meant to be added?

Thanks

There is no need for thank you here, just trying to help.

The article also states that it is a good choice for the LCA, but we dont even know if that has been achieved. I would take most wiki articles, specially ones that sound like adverts and less like articles with a pinch of salt.
Glad I could help.

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 01 Oct 2009 18:26

Can someone explain what the hot and humid climate technically do to jet engines that make them less powerful than in colder/dry climates ?

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 01 Oct 2009 22:58

Density of air and internal turbine temps come to mind, a simple web search would reveal the details.

koti · Post by **koti** » 02 Oct 2009 00:05

sync wrote:Please excuse my ignorance but could anyone tell that if India possesses any high-impulse thermobaric weapons or fuel-air bombs of the same category as MOAB/FOAB or even daisy cutters for that matter.

I remember that during operation dessert storm a whole iraqi battalion surrendered when a US colonel threatened to use a daisy cutter on the theatre.

Many thanks!!!!

Daisy cutters MOAB/FOAB are obese. They can only be dropped from transport aircraft(or bombers). This is not at all an attractive option as far as IAF's operational requirement goes.
And we do use a lot of thermobaric explosives. From precision air dropped munitions to the rockets of Smerch.

koti · Post by **koti** » 03 Oct 2009 01:26

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJOEtSM ... re=related

Awesome power. No paladin or crusader can do anything close to this(Not the range though).

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 04 Oct 2009 02:28

I have been thinking for some time about this - Set a thief to catch a thief.

Can we have a thread where we can, putting ourselves in the shoes of a India hating ISI/Chinese strategist, come up with plausible scenarios that can be used to dent India as a brand and its image.
It might even provide us a reference to match the happenings when they do happen.

example: CW games presents the best opportunity to have a caste war ignited in the badlands of Bihar. With the gathered world media feasting on inherent fizzures in the caste system.
or for that matter what other actions will leave the maximum psychological scar on indian mindset and other similar such scenarios.

Don't know how much favour this finds amongst the admins. Ofcourse it could even be labeled as a seditious thought. In which case I beg your pardon since i am writing in my sleep.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 07 Oct 2009 15:11

In BR forums, at the server level, who has a higher authority - "Forum Moderator" or "Webmaster"?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 07 Oct 2009 17:49

aditp wrote:In BR forums, at the server level, who has a higher authority - "Forum Moderator" or "Webmaster"?

At the server level - neither - its "Big Boss - BR"

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Oct 2009 17:57

remember aditp, you can't see Big Boss(with capital B ) but He, can see you !

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 08 Oct 2009 17:12

War is the American Way

Nicely written article. I never understood why America fought an Saddam, Vietnamese or the Taliban who never had any means to reach or attack the American mainland.

What does it mean when the most military-obsessed administration in our history, which, year after year, submitted ever more bloated Pentagon budgets to Congress, is succeeded by one headed by a president who ran, at least partially, on an anti-war platform, and who has now submitted an even larger Pentagon budget? What does this tell you about Washington and about the viability of non-militarised alternatives to the path George W Bush took?

When it comes to war (and peace), we live in a world of American Newspeak in which alternatives to a state of war are not only ever more unacceptable, but ever harder to imagine. If war is now our permanent situation, it has also been sundered from the words that once accompanied it. It lacks, for instance, “victory”. When was the last time the US won a war (unless you include our “victories” over small countries incapable of defending themselves like the tiny Caribbean island of Grenada in 1983 or powerless Panama in 1989)? The smashing “victory” over Saddam Hussein in the first Gulf war only led to a stop-and-start conflict that has proved a catastrophe. Keep heading backward through the Vietnam and Korean wars and the last time the US military was truly victorious was in 1945.

But achieving victory no longer seems to matter. War American-style is now conceptually unending, as are preparations for it. When George W Bush proclaimed a Global War on Terror (aka World War IV), conceived as a “generational struggle” like the cold war, he caught a certain American reality. The ongoing war system can’t absorb victory. Any such endpoint might indeed prove to be a defeat. No longer has war anything to do with the taking of territory, or with direct conquest either. War is now a state of being, not a process with a beginning, an end, and a geography.

Similarly drained of its traditional meaning has been the word “security”, though it has moved from a state of being (secure) to an eternal, immensely profitable process whose endpoint is unachievable. If we ever decided we were either secure enough, or more willing to live without the unreachable idea of total security, the American way of war and the national security state would lose much of their meaning. In our world, security is insecurity.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 09 Oct 2009 05:42

I have a question:
Why did China attack India in 1962? Was it about land or something else?

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 10 Oct 2009 01:51

AdityaM wrote:I have been thinking for some time about this - Set a thief to catch a thief.

Can we have a thread where we can, putting ourselves in the shoes of a India hating ISI/Chinese strategist, come up with plausible scenarios that can be used to dent India as a brand and its image.
It might even provide us a reference to match the happenings when they do happen.

example: CW games presents the best opportunity to have a caste war ignited in the badlands of Bihar. With the gathered world media feasting on inherent fizzures in the caste system.
or for that matter what other actions will leave the maximum psychological scar on indian mindset and other similar such scenarios.

Don't know how much favour this finds amongst the admins. Ofcourse it could even be labeled as a seditious thought. In which case I beg your pardon since i am writing in my sleep.

That's a good idea. IMHO the biggest incident which can dent India's brand and image would be (a) an attack on the IT industry (e.g. Infosys campuses) or (b) another attack on foreigners but in a very high profile environment (e.g. the Taj Mahal or Udaipur or Goa).

LeT has realised that given our apathetic attitude towards our fellow Indians, bombing commuter trains or market places causes only temporary panic but hardly finds a mention in the global media.

Incidentally, does anyone know if the police in Goa have any special response units/anti-terror squads? Goa police has greatly strengthened intelligence gathering in association with IB but I wonder if they have any dedicated offensive capabilities on the lines of "Force One" in Mumbai. Also, the emergency response mechanism in Goa is pathetic. Apparently, there aren't enough ambulances (even in Panjim) and accident & emergency departments in the state are very poorly equipped.

With winter and Christmas/New Year fast approaching, I hope security agencies are on alert for possible terror attacks in Goa...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Oct 2009 08:53

AdityaM wrote:I have been thinking for some time about this - Set a thief to catch a thief.

Can we have a thread where we can, putting ourselves in the shoes of a India hating ISI/Chinese strategist, come up with plausible scenarios that can be used to dent India as a brand and its image.
It might even provide us a reference to match the happenings when they do happen..

Nothing wrong with this. I tried to use this model time and time again to model a nuclear attack on an Indian city to show how others might experience a nuclear attack.

Unfortunately - with some topics and unimaginative people you could end up being accused of sedition. It is safe with nukes because no individual posting on timepass forums can actually get them or use them.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 10 Oct 2009 09:15

Raveen wrote:
VijayKumarSinha wrote:DM Thanks alot, Is the Mig-29, especially the carrier based Mig-29K likely to have an AESA radar?
No Mig-29 has an AESA radar till date and I don't think there is one under development either. Although once the Mig-35's radar is productionized I don't see any reason (other than lack of will) why it can't be integrated with the Mig-29 since they are more or less the same bird.

Guys, found this : http://armoredd.com/home/archives/1451

But Phazotron hopes to find an application for its AESA radar in Russia as well. Company representatives said it is expected to be installed in a future version of the MiG-29K ship-based fighter to be developed for the Russian Navy. But this prospect seems to be rather distant.

So, Sure! But not yet.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 10 Oct 2009 09:47

The posts on beheading in Red Menace now!

It is requested that if there is already a thread in existence on the topic you wish to post on, please do so there.

koti · Post by **koti** » 12 Oct 2009 09:48

If Army can be used against militants in Kashmir, some of whom constitute of Indian citizens, why can't it be used against Naxals who also receive help from external sources, go against the constitution, kill innocent people, and are now called after a foreign leader who was considered our biggest enemy.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 12 Oct 2009 19:36

rajsunder wrote:A basic question on radar and stealth.

would having Transmitter and receiver at different locations of having a single Transmitter and multiple receivers at different locations be enough to beat stealth ??

The other advantage of this bistatic arrangement is in terms of resistance to ECMs. If the attacking aircraft has no idea where the receiver is, there is no way that it can jam the receiver.

Additionally, since a lot of the physical stealth of an airframe is usually oriented along a single aspect angle (no fighter aircraft can really have full aspect stealth due to its airframe shaping). Thus, having a receiver at a different aspect angle to a certain extent negates the stealth advantage gotten by LO aircraft.

However, the disadvantage is the increased cost. Plus, you'd require double infrastructure at geographically distant locations. Plus, when you place the two separate, there is a lot of ground between, which can include altitude variations. Thus, all that an intruding aircraft needs to do is duck and fly low, and it'll be out of view of the receiver.

However, bistatics do have advantages against VLO aircraft. Another technology that seem to be making a comeback are VHF/UHF Radars from the '50s, which seem to do particularly well against stealth aircraft (whose stealth is usually narrowband, ie the RAMs absorb only a narrow band of Rf radiations).

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 12 Oct 2009 19:45

koti wrote:If Army can be used against militants in Kashmir, some of whom constitute of Indian citizens, why can't it be used against Naxals who also receive help from external sources, go against the constitution, kill innocent people, and are now called after a foreign leader who was considered our biggest enemy.

Overkill for one - when Central Paramilitary forces are themselves destroying highly trained and armed terrorists in J&K, why send the army to attack Naxals. Plus, the Army has a more important task in securing our borders. COIN is not their primary mandate, and they'd do it reluctantly (thats not to say that if pressed in, they won't do a good job - on the contrary. However, their primary job lies elsewhere) and would risk diluting their operational readiness (one of the main reasons why paramils were increased in number in J&K).

The second is perception - bringing in the army will send a public message regarding the seriousness of the situation and will make it seem as if the Indian state is in civil war. Imagine the NYT going for this. Pressing the Army will internationalize an essentially guerilla campaign being run by a bunch of groups that are starting to coordinate now.

Plus, do note that till now, paramilitaries themselves haven't been active in this fight - it has been the state police forces and state commandos. Bringing in paras and the COBRA is itself a vast improvement in force numbers and effectiveness, and, IMO, is quite adequate for the situation now.

What needs to be done is to use them well, through resolute political will (which is coming in now). By allowing them to use massive force, it will destroy the Naxals. Additionally, tactics (especially of the police) need to be honed to fight a COIN war (till now most of the cops would have only used their Lathis. Going from there to an INSAS is a big leap, let alone talking about COIN op tactics). When the paramils enter the fight, they will also need to quickly gain knowledge of the ground, the society and the situation there. Plus, far better inter-state coordination is required.

Overall, its good to see the govt taking a strong line, at least now. Paramilitaries are good enough for the Naxals right now. No need for the Army.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 12 Oct 2009 20:38

That was well explained. I can think of one more reason only. Someone interviewed by the newspaper (i forget whom), said the Army is trained to take on the enemy by full force, and destroy them. However, currently, the situation in Naxal-affected states is delicate. The local police and para-military forces know the situation on ground very well, and thus, will be more tactful. As a popular saying goes, "you cannot use a sword in place of a pin" (or something like that

)

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 12 Oct 2009 22:34

Not sure what's the most suitable thread for this.. What a beauty!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 13 Oct 2009 16:06

There is a discussion going on at Su-30 forum regarding MAWS and LWS.
I am aware of MAWS, but what is LWS? And how does it differ from MAWS.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Oct 2009 16:32

laser warning system !
funny how the simplest of acronyms sometimes fox us.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 13 Oct 2009 16:34

Parijat Gaur wrote:There is a discussion going on at Su-30 forum regarding MAWS and LWS.
I am aware of MAWS, but what is LWS? And how does it differ from MAWS.

Based on moi limited knowledge

AFAIK LWS would be a laser warning system that alerts the pilot to being painted by a laser which a missile can ride...IIRC the swedish RBS 70 and there was another missile from ye ol' blighty that had like 4 darts or something are good examples of this kind...the MAWS me thinks would work with the LWS giving real time info to ze pilot in order to take evasive measures...

Added later: Hmph

ebil mullah beat me to it

Shubham · Post by **Shubham** » 15 Oct 2009 10:08

The 18 new block 52 F16s that Pak is getting, are they being brought on loan (or direct payment) , or unkil is supplying them free ?

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 15 Oct 2009 14:05

Hi,
Any one covering Indesec Expo 2009 (Homeland Security Expo)???

Regards,
Khambat Dagha.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 17 Oct 2009 00:15

Um guys.. I want to know if there is a thread that deals with military books... I kinda remember one but it turned out be an ebook discussion thread...

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 17 Oct 2009 01:58

andy B wrote:
Parijat Gaur wrote:There is a discussion going on at Su-30 forum regarding MAWS and LWS.
I am aware of MAWS, but what is LWS? And how does it differ from MAWS.
Based on moi limited knowledge AFAIK LWS would be a laser warning system that alerts the pilot to being painted by a laser which a missile can ride...IIRC the swedish RBS 70

Or probably when laser rangefinder is at work!

Cheers....

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 17 Oct 2009 02:03

Just watched "Luck" movie. In the climax, Sanjay dutt boards down from a yellow chopper onto a rail car. That chopper looks to me like a Dhruv?

If yes, then it's time to add "Popular Culture" section to the Dhruv wiki page

.

Cheers....

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 18 Oct 2009 18:11

k prasad wrote:
koti wrote:If Army can be used against militants in Kashmir, some of whom constitute of Indian citizens, why can't it be used against Naxals who also receive help from external sources, go against the constitution, kill innocent people, and are now called after a foreign leader who was considered our biggest enemy.
Overkill for one - when Central Paramilitary forces are themselves destroying highly trained and armed terrorists in J&K, why send the army to attack Naxals. Plus, the Army has a more important task in securing our borders. COIN is not their primary mandate, and they'd do it reluctantly (thats not to say that if pressed in, they won't do a good job - on the contrary. However, their primary job lies elsewhere) and would risk diluting their operational readiness (one of the main reasons why paramils were increased in number in J&K).

The second is perception - bringing in the army will send a public message regarding the seriousness of the situation and will make it seem as if the Indian state is in civil war. Imagine the NYT going for this. Pressing the Army will internationalize an essentially guerilla campaign being run by a bunch of groups that are starting to coordinate now.

Plus, do note that till now, paramilitaries themselves haven't been active in this fight - it has been the state police forces and state commandos. Bringing in paras and the COBRA is itself a vast improvement in force numbers and effectiveness, and, IMO, is quite adequate for the situation now.

What needs to be done is to use them well, through resolute political will (which is coming in now). By allowing them to use massive force, it will destroy the Naxals. Additionally, tactics (especially of the police) need to be honed to fight a COIN war (till now most of the cops would have only used their Lathis. Going from there to an INSAS is a big leap, let alone talking about COIN op tactics). When the paramils enter the fight, they will also need to quickly gain knowledge of the ground, the society and the situation there. Plus, far better inter-state coordination is required.

Overall, its good to see the govt taking a strong line, at least now. Paramilitaries are good enough for the Naxals right now. No need for the Army.

Agree completely, and to the above may I add that in the past, two major Naxalite insurgencies have been effectively dealt with by state police forces. Naxalbari Movement in West Bengal is a case in point so is the extremely successful Grey Hounds initiative by the AP Police. What they had going for them was political will. IMHO it will be an overkill to bring in the Army.

Also to be kept in mind is the fact that, bringing in the Army can not be a solution to every insurgency problem. That is why even in Kashmir, there is a conscious effort to scale back the Army’s role in COIN and to replace them with paras and later with state police.

The whole ethos and structure around which a conventional army is raised, gets strained whenever they are used for COIN duties, where the enemy can not be easily identified. Though our Army has done a commendably well in COIN operations but stretching them further may not be called for especially with newer threat perceptions developing near the Chinese border

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 18 Oct 2009 21:11

neerajb wrote:Just watched "Luck" movie. In the climax, Sanjay dutt boards down from a yellow chopper onto a rail car. That chopper looks to me like a Dhruv?

If yes, then it's time to add "Popular Culture" section to the Dhruv wiki page .

Cheers....

Its not a Dhruv. Its a Kawasaki BK-117 helicopter operated by the Si Chang Flying Service.

Wiki Link

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 20 Oct 2009 22:38

i have a newbie doubt...

as we see the history of any war element of surprise played a very big role in victory ...
but in this modern warfare how we can achieve this element of surprise.....

with the help of remote sensing satellites enemy can see the movement of our troops including the strength of the
troops also [ vice versa] so enemy can do all the countermeasures ...... right..?

so how the element of surprise playing the role in this modern war fare..?

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 20 Oct 2009 23:21

In the 1991 gulf war, surprise was acheived by Americans by using F117 to take out high valued targets like Radar's, communcations e.t.c at night time. Similar tactics were used in the 2nd Iraq war.

So I think its more a matter of surprising the enemy with when you are going to attack by using advanced technology once it knows that war is imminent.

This video shows how F117 nighthawks were used to surprise the Iraqis, who had the 5th largest Air force in the world at that time and had pretty much all the advanced weaponry that they could buy from the Russians and the French. But the one thing that they didn't have was the F117 and that really shortened the time it took to defeat them. Also, the Iraqis were battle hardened after fighting Iran to a stalemate for 10 years.

In our case, I would like to imagine that the Brahmos could do a similar job for us against at least our beloved neighbors to the west.

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 21 Oct 2009 12:35

VijayKumarSinha wrote:

This video shows how F117 nighthawks were used to surprise the Iraqis, who had the 5th largest Air force in the world at that time and had pretty much all the advanced weaponry that they could buy from the Russians and the French. But the one thing that they didn't have was the F117 and that really shortened the time it took to defeat them. Also, the Iraqis were battle hardened after fighting Iran to a stalemate for 10 years.

In our case, I would like to imagine that the Brahmos could do a similar job for us against at least our beloved neighbors to the west.

that means we should have atleast one advanced weapon than our enemies ...

but is this enough to counter against china..?

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 21 Oct 2009 15:25

OT post.