China Military Watch

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 01 Oct 2009 10:07

Missiles Displayed In parade

Also links towards air show in parade

Impressing arsenal Indeed

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Oct 2009 10:36

as much i hate the chinese

) you have to admire the grandeur of their celebrations... shows meticulous planning and preparations and also the money. i hope it remains a parade ground army !!

though all this syncs up well with their philosophy to win the war even before it starts , by demoralising the enemy. Hope our political class is paying attention and wakes up to the dragon and takes adeuqate politcal, military measures ( though i am doubtful if it will).

Yesterday, SM Krishna was saying that Dalai Lama is a religious leader and he cant make political statements about china. but Mirawiz Umer farooq who is a religious leader can make inflammatory anti india speeches from mosque in Srinagar

and from everywhere in India?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Oct 2009 10:53

^^^
hey, don't hate anyone.

found an interesting document. haven't kept up with the literature for some months but I find there are quite a few interesting ones on the web now.

manjgu, google for “No Oil for the Lamps of China?” and read it.
it's a study by US naval war college on oil blockade on PRC. although the contexts are completely different (it discusses oil blockade as a stand alone option, not as a reaction to a war as we were discussing, which will have different ground rules), doesn't discuss non-oil maritime trade at all and everything from a US pov only it still gives the figures required for blockade ops in malacca. and PLAN capabilities to break through a blockade.

you will find it interesting.

as to your question whether we will sink PRC owned ships (chinese crewed) when they are bombing our land, all I can say is

A Eruchîn, ú-dano i faelas a hyn, an uben tanatha le faelas.

Srivastav · Post by **Srivastav** » 01 Oct 2009 12:21

Show them no mercy! For you shall receive none!

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Oct 2009 12:33

Rahul.. i know quite a few chinese / chinese institutions from close quaters and I can tell you that they are the most ruthless and unscrupulous quom on the earth. as indivuduals they may look pretty harmless / reasonable but collectively they are .........

that they are an intelligent race increases the danger, their focus and not to forget or forgive anything is also a quality.

i dont know if you are aware that they have a few empty chairs always in their parliament... these seats are for reps from Taiwan when taiwan will become a part of china eventually. compare this with our stand on kashmir which we claim to be integral part of India. If I was an India ( in chinese mould) i would be saying that POK is an integral part of india and we will get it back and thats the real solution of the KAshmir issue !! ..thats the difference. but we are sending dossiers after dossiers...

The "Oil..." article is very interesting and it illustrates the USN is probably the only Navy with capability and will to interdict Chinese shipping...

the proverb is very interesting but does india have the balls ( the question of will) to sink ships, create oil spills in the middle of shipping lanes, disrupt not only chinese but japanese ( and americal??) supplies indirectly .. i dont think so. ( hope i am proved wrong if and when the ballon does go up).

While I am no expert on naval issues ... but it does take lot of time to assemble ships, provision them for combat and make them reach the potential blockade zone and get down to business. by the time all this happens, there will be ceasefire. I dont expect lot of clowning around ( aar paar ki ladaee etc) on the chinese side if they do decide for military action . It will be a well planned , well concealed effort and it will be a short but intense campaign.

And its not a question of how many troops/division we have vs the chinese ... but how quickly can we concentrate men/material at certain points.

again referring to the slow slow quick quick... the first quick was a quick fient attack to distract the enemys attention and the second quick was the real attack . the question is how well you react to the real attack. and here the role of infrasttucture will be paramount. or do we have a similar offensive strategy in place?? i dont know

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Oct 2009 12:50

and that Muslims below the age of 17 are not allowed to attend Mosques in china. Chinese have decided that mosques are source of religious indoctrination and extemism from quite some time back.. So much for "deeper than oceans and higher than himalayas " relations with Islamic Pakistan ....

I would be the most happy man if india can even show 10% of this single mindedness towards national security and interest.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 01 Oct 2009 15:28

^ How is the above post related to this Threads topic of Chinese military watch?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Oct 2009 16:42

Folks I was trying to see what new weapons toys have the Chinese displayed in their much ballyhooed march past.

I could see the following
1) New intercontinental ballistic missiles
2) New AWACS/AEC
3) New drones?
4) J-10s
5) New cruise missiles
Other systems reaching to 52 new systems.

However

The Chinese sites have absolutely no new information on any of them, it does not say how they are new, i.e. what new features, what capabilities, what numbers why good etc.

They however talk a lot of how shiny the missiles looked, how good was the paint, how pretty were the pilots, and how many tires did the trailers carrying the missiles were.

This is bizarre. I know Chinese are secretive but what purpose does marching out cardboard cut outs serve?

Heck even Doordarshan does a much better job at describing the Republic day parade and what equipement passes by.

No info at all seems to be available. Any one has better luck on understanding the new toys?

wig · Post by **wig** » 01 Oct 2009 18:15

manjgu wrote:i dont know if you are aware that they have a few empty chairs always in their parliament... these seats are for reps from Taiwan when taiwan will become a part of china eventually. compare this with our stand on kashmir which we claim to be integral part of India. If I was an India ( in chinese mould) i would be saying that POK is an integral part of india and we will get it back and thats the real solution of the KAshmir issue !! ..thats the difference. but we are sending dossiers after dossiers...

sir,
the indian state of J&K has a bicameral legislature. the lower house the legislative assembly has a sanctioned strength of 97 or so. the elected members are 87. the shortfall is the members who would represent POK euphemistacally termed "Azad kashmir" by our western neighbour. my memory is a trifle rusty on the exact strength but i repeat the J&K lower house has the empty seats. regarding parliament at the time of independence the quota for J&K was 6 seats which was allotted in the Lok Sabha the Indian version of the House of Commons.
regards

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 Oct 2009 18:44

China's Anniversary

Do view the slideshow alongwith the news. Lots of pics of military hardware including missiles, AWACS, UAV's etc.

Some interesting points besides the weapons:
- Protests from the pro-democracy people with the usual arrests
- Protests from free Tibet groups
- Protests from free Tibet groups in Delhi
- Pakistan issues a commemorative coin

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Oct 2009 19:17

wig.. i am pleased to be informed about that but nothing in the indian parliament...and we are happy to settle for LOC as border.

and look how are we grovelling in front of a neighbour 1/7 our size ... not exactly a sign of being in control..

as per a news item today Chinese are not issuing regular visas ( stamped) to residents of J& K and Arunachal, claimimg that these are disputed. they are stapling the visa. This is another example of their single minded focus on issues that they consider important... and how they pay attention to small things. i am saying that india needs to learn a few things from our enemy no 1..

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 Oct 2009 19:34

Sanku wrote:No info at all seems to be available. Any one has better luck on understanding the new toys?

The few I could identify visually are:
ZTZ99 MBT.
J-10 with Xian H6 (Tu-16) Refueler.
DF-31 ICBM.
AWACS?
UAV?

Please add/correct this list if anyone can identify more/better.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Oct 2009 20:11

shameekg wrote:
Sanku wrote:No info at all seems to be available. Any one has better luck on understanding the new toys?
The few I could identify visually are:
ZTZ99 MBT.
J-10 with Xian H6 (Tu-16) Refueler.
DF-31 ICBM.
AWACS?
UAV?

Please add/correct this list if anyone can identify more/better.

Yup but not clear whats new + any stats etc. They could be painted dummies the way they have been described.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Oct 2009 23:04

The "Oil..." article is very interesting and it illustrates the USN is probably the only Navy with capability and will to interdict Chinese shipping...

then you need to read it again.

since it analyzes from the US viewpoint it ignores the advantages India already has.

in fact there are quite a few articles by chinese experts on possible Indian blockade of malacca, so they do take this scenario seriously. unfortunately none of them are in english.

_______________________
okay, here's the xinhua report on naval contingent of the parade.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009- ... 149353.htm

it starts off by :

China's young and handsome sailors and marines ...........

we were right ! this is a fashion parade !

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Oct 2009 00:22

guys, have a look at this document.

http://www.nwc.navy.mil/cnws/cmsi/docum ... hihara.pdf

it has a section on chinese apprisal of IN. since we can't read the original papers in mandarin this is the next best thing.

CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES IN THE INDIAN OCEAN

CHINESE VIEWS OF INDIAN SEA POWER
If American analysts seem blasé about the intentions and capabilities of their
prospective strategic partner, many Chinese analysts depict the basic motives behind
India’s maritime ambitions in starkly geopolitical terms. Indeed, their assumptions
and arguments are unmistakably Mahanian. Zhang Ming of Modern
Ships asserts, “The Indian subcontinent is akin to a massive triangle reaching into
the heart of the Indian Ocean, benefi ting any from there who seeks to control
the Indian Ocean.”30 In an article casting suspicion on Indian naval intentions,
the author states, “Geostrategically speaking, the Indian Ocean is a link of communication
and oil transportation between the Pacifi c and Atlantic Oceans and
India is just like a giant and never-sinking aircraft carrier and the most important
strategic point guarding the Indian Ocean.”

Chinese analysts differ over the extent of Indian naval ambitions in the twentyfi
rst century. But they concur that India will not restrict its seafaring endeavors to
the Indian Ocean indefi nitely. Most discern a clear transition from a combination
of offshore defense and area control to a blue-water offensive posture. One commentator
postulates that India will develop the capacity to prevent and implement
its own naval blockades against the choke points at Suez, Hormuz, and
Malacca.38 Unsurprisingly, the prospect that India might seek to blockade Malacca
against China has attracted substantial attention. One Chinese analyst, using
language that would have been instantly recognizable to Mahan, describes the
244 islands that constitute the Andaman-Nicobar archipelago as a “metal chain”
that could lock tight the western exit of the Malacca Strait Zhang Ming
further argues that “once India commands the Indian Ocean, it will not be satisfi
ed with its position and will continuously seek to extend its infl uence, and its
eastward strategy will have a particular impact on China.” The author concludes
that “India is perhaps China’s most realistic strategic adversary.”

While they pay considerable attention to the potential Indian threat to the
Malacca Strait, Chinese observers also believe the Indian sea services are intent
on
Achieving sea control from the northern Arabian Sea to the South China Sea
Developing the ability to conduct SLOC defense and combat operations in
the areas above
Maintaining absolute superiority over all littoral states in the Indian Ocean..........

Such mixed feelings further suggest that Sino-Indian maritime competition
in the Indian Ocean or the South China Sea is not fated. Neither side has
the credible capacity—yet—to reach into the other’s nautical backyard

the authors reach the same conclusion as I did at more than one place on BR ! so I wasn't barking up the wrong tree after all !

sumeet_s · Post by **sumeet_s** » 02 Oct 2009 01:08

Some more reading on china's oil supplies and their supply lines

http://www.eai.nus.edu.sg/BB329.pdf

[url]http://%20se2.isn.ch/serviceengine/Files/ESDP/56390/.../StringPearls.pdf[/url]

http://www.maritimeindia.org/pdfs/CHINA ... LLENGE.pdf

http://www.uscc.gov/hearings/2007hearin ... tement.pdf

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 02 Oct 2009 01:42

@ Rahul

nice link.I am thirsty and unfortunately i can't open the pdf file. If the article is not too big, can you post it here in full. or i will give u my email address to mail me the same.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 Oct 2009 01:50

All that analysis is correct. And there is one inescapable fact.

The IN is the second most powerful fleet in the IOR, and Chinese trade through this route is at the mercy of the IN.

And the Chinese can do diddly squat about it.

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 02 Oct 2009 01:51

Found this HD version of the parade in YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VUrwMaOtF8

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 02 Oct 2009 02:00

I believe chinese agree with me on this. its fortunate geographical location of IN that puts them in advantage. In an event of conflict, the arabian sea will be in total control of IN (except a few pinching effect by PN). Our agreement with Maldives will give us another advantage,
USN base in this region is another factor.
In eastern front we are on our own, and hence a stronger fleet in andaman and nicobar is the need of the hour.

Any one for greater friendship with indonesia and malyasia?

Also
India building defence capabilities like China: Anton

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 02 Oct 2009 06:21

DF-31 TELs from the Chinese parade
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009- ... 179024.jpg

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009- ... 146977.htm

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 02 Oct 2009 08:16

Gagan wrote:All that analysis is correct. And there is one inescapable fact.

The IN is the second most powerful fleet in the IOR, and Chinese trade through this route is at the mercy of the IN.

And the Chinese can do diddly squat about it.

Sadly, India will not do diddly squat.

In the 70s, 80s and 90s Chinese ships and North Korean ships were busy plying the Indian Ocean loaded long range rocket components and nuke components and unloading them in Karachi dockyards. What did the second most powerful naval force in the IOR do while all these shennanigans taking place right infront of it? SADLY, a big fat supersized NOTHING!!!
Avram

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 02 Oct 2009 08:38

asprinzl wrote:
Gagan wrote:All that analysis is correct. And there is one inescapable fact.

The IN is the second most powerful fleet in the IOR, and Chinese trade through this route is at the mercy of the IN.

And the Chinese can do diddly squat about it.
Sadly, India will not do diddly squat.

In the 70s, 80s and 90s Chinese ships and North Korean ships were busy plying the Indian Ocean loaded long range rocket components and nuke components and unloading them in Karachi dockyards. What did the second most powerful naval force in the IOR do while all these shennanigans taking place right infront of it? SADLY, a big fat supersized NOTHING!!!
Avram

Using the same standard of reasoning, the IOR also had 2 of the world's most powerful navies of those times, the US Navy and the Soviet Navy, what did they do about what you said? "Diddly Squat"

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 02 Oct 2009 08:53

You seem to be missing the point. It was not the national security of US nor the SU was at stake. It was the national security of India at peril. The Chinese/Pakisatani/NoKo tango was aimed at India and not at the US nor SU. So....why should the US nor the SU care about it? It was India that should have done something about it. But nothing was done. Focused now?
Avram

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 02 Oct 2009 09:10

asprinzl wrote:You seem to be missing the point. It was not the national security of US nor the SU was at stake. It was the national security of India at peril. The Chinese/Pakisatani/NoKo tango was aimed at India and not at the US nor SU. So....why should the US nor the SU care about it? It was India that should have done something about it. But nothing was done. Focused now?
Avram

Keep in mind that USSR-Pak relations had soured with quite some encounters here and there. USSR had every reason to keep Pakistan on its radar and with another one of its biggest enemies of that time providing stuff to Pakistan, you can see my point now I am sure. Fact is US consistently chose to keep mum about the nuke tech and missile tech transfers from China to Pak and hence everyone else could only do diddly squat about it. I am sure in most cases RAW had the intelligence of the exchanges but there was no political will to intervene.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 02 Oct 2009 12:04

Was watching PLA parade in youtube.

It was well choreographed, sometimes their walking style looked more faminine than masculine. I felt that North Korean parades looked more perfect than this PRC parade.

One thing I noticed was that whenever there was a column of female soldiers, a special smile appeared on Hu Jintao's face.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Oct 2009 12:09

any good youtube links ?
=============

animesharma wrote:@ Rahul

nice link.I am thirsty and unfortunately i can't open the pdf file. If the article is not too big, can you post it here in full. or i will give u my email address to mail me the same.

you can right click the link and select save link as to save the .pdf file on your harddrive.
alternatively, please email me. (email ID in my profile signature.)

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 02 Oct 2009 15:58

shyam wrote:Was watching PLA parade in youtube. It was well choreographed, sometimes their walking style looked more faminine than masculine. I felt that North Korean parades looked more perfect than this PRC parade. One thing I noticed was that whenever there was a column of female soldiers, a special smile appeared on Hu Jintao's face.

Yup, they seemed to have toned it down this time with a retro-retro look. Marching is more German than Soviet/NoKo. That was the tone of the whole show - "We are all about hi-tech and kultur" - no more one brutal mass and grim determination etc. Same with security arrangements. The reason I called it retro-retro was that in 1920s and 30s the Chinese went through a phase of German-craze, with the Nationalist Army being modeled as close to the Heer as they could afford.

ovein · Post by **ovein** » 06 Oct 2009 14:33

Nice article about the India and China

http://frontierindia.net/wa/india%E2%80 ... aries/442/

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 06 Oct 2009 20:04

'We're prepared to counter China'
http://www.timesnow.tv/articleshow/4329005.cms

In the recent time, this is the for first time I am seeing a strong response from Indian armed force establishment.

ovein · Post by **ovein** » 07 Oct 2009 17:29

US panic at China's new ship killer

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/ ... -g95b.html

This article talking about chinese trying to develop a new kind of missile.

"The institute's report said the Dong Feng missile was thought to have a range of about 2000 kilometres and a speed of Mach 10: "The size of the missile enables it to carry a warhead big enough to inflict significant damage on a large vessel, providing the Chinese the capability of destroying a US supercarrier in one strike."

Eventually this type of thing will be coming. sooner rather than later. now what changes it will have with our three carrier policy.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Oct 2009 17:49

sooner Khan is kicked out in shame and disgrace from western pacific better for India using the enemy's enemy is my friend rule.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 12 Oct 2009 02:54

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 113634.cms

‘‘The slow progress is a major concern. If more resources and faster clearances are not forthcoming, then the 2012 deadline for these roads will not be met. In India, other considerations often take priority over strategic ones,’’ said a senior officer.

‘‘Our troops often have to trek long distances to reach their border posts. Some of our rudimentary roads even stop 60 to 70-km short of LAC. Moreover, the closest rail link is around 100 km away. China, in contrast, has highways and metal roads coming right up to its claim lines,’’ said an officer.

A grim reality check. We need to up our ante and reassure that our border ALWAYS take a higher priority then some Political/National Agenda. Too bad states like AP always don't get the attention deserved as well as Mumbai, Banglore, or Delhi.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 12 Oct 2009 11:27

Evil China Builds Entire Building to Simulate the Carrier

Images enlarge on clicking

bhavik · Post by **bhavik** » 14 Oct 2009 15:56

A very comprehensive desription of PRC's proliferation activities in Porkistan.
http://www.nti.org/db/china/npakpos.htm
Apologies if poster earlier.

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 14 Oct 2009 17:08

IAF Slams Chinese Protest to PM's Arunachal Visit
http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?667753

"IAF does not fear. We (India) have not said anything against their military activities in Tibet. They (China) should have nothing when we build defence capabilities in our areas (in the North-East)," he said.

"We have two squadrons of Akash at present. We are asking for more squadrons for the North-East to upgrade our air defence capabilities. It is a good missile and we have also asked for some improvements in it," Barbora said.

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 14 Oct 2009 17:10

Also very interesting that today for the first time India has objected Chines activities in POK.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 123212.cms

India objects to Chinese activities in PoK

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Oct 2009 17:59

Singha wrote sooner Khan is kicked out in shame and disgrace from western pacific better for India using the enemy's enemy is my friend rule.

Sorry can't agree, what if the Pakis get this and if the DF-21 has really long range, doesnt it make Gorskhov and and indegenous aircraft project a total waste??

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Oct 2009 18:39

Aditya_V wrote:
Singha wrote sooner Khan is kicked out in shame and disgrace from western pacific better for India using the enemy's enemy is my friend rule.

Sorry can't agree, what if the Pakis get this and if the DF-21 has really long range, doesnt it make Gorskhov and and indegenous aircraft project a total waste??

the so-called anti-ship ballistic missile is more fiction than fact at the moment.
the technology described is improbable, if not impossible given the PRC's current ability. of course the DoD is playing along for funding purposes but no BMs have yet demonstrated an ability to hit targets that are dynamic in realtime.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 14 Oct 2009 19:03

Upsurge in Naxal activities can not be looked in an isolation. China started to make lot of sound on Arunachal Pradesh. Almost made Nepal its colony and luckly for India Congress was not in need of CPM and CPI support and thus Nepal was saved. Now reports indicate that they have started to train ULFA. So what does all these indicate. China is now conducting a proxi war on India. The stupid Jholawalas and filmy fellows and burkha datts are not interested to see the big picture. I think China may be want to engage india before it is too late and the naxals are part of their plan. ( I have posted this on another thread but thought it is more suitable here also) How ready are we if something happens in immediate future. With 32 Sqd Air Force. Weak on Sub Force. Most of the Army in internal Security duty. Are we in good shape ???

Any Guruji there???