A dismissed army soldier has been arrested after he was found to be allegedly couriering classified military plans, including details of deployment of the Indian Army [ Images ] in Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ] and Secunderabad, for Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence.
Describing the arrest as a "big catch," Additional Director General of Police (Headquarters) Neelmani said in Patna on Tuesday that the former sepoy, Sudhanshu Sudhakar, was arrested during a raid at a place under Kankarbagh police station on Monday evening on a tip off by the Intelligence Bureau and other intelligence agencies.
Sudhakar, a resident of Sitamarhi district, was booked under the Official Secrets Act at the Kankerbagh police station and the Home ministry was informed, Neelmani said.
The ISI operative was in Patna to collect information about the Ordnance factory at Rajgir in Nalanda district.
Senior Superintendent of Police (Patna) Vinit Vinayak told media persons that the sepoy was dismissed from the army in 2007 after a five year stint because of dubious activities.
The alleged ISI agent was on his way to Kathmandu to share secrets with an ISI module on information relating to deployment of Indian army in Jammu Kashmir and Secunderabad in Andhra Pradesh, besides inputs on missiles, he said.
Sudhakar revealed vital information on his contacts during interrogation and important documents were seized from his Sitamarhi residence, the SSP said.
Raids were made in Sitamarhi and Madhubani districts and some places in Jharkhand on information provided by the agent.
Indian Army: News & Discussion
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/ ... spying.htm
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Kitoo,
IMHO she is too ignorant and a obnoxious fool to deserve any argument in this matter (even through email).
Those who have been in contact with the IA officers would tell you about the level of courtesy that they show to women ( both their fellow female officers and officers' wives).
It is indeed literally "taught" in armed forces to always show courtesy and respect towards women.
I have been in close contact with IA officers all my life. If an officer is fool enough to misbehave with a woman (even in inebriated state), the consequences are very bad. And she talks of physical abuse?
If not anything else, the women officers are treated better than their male counterparts.
Senior officers do not hesitate to talk "really" harshly with their junior officers at some mistake by the latter. But women officers are treated much better in that regard.
The world is full of ignorant fools. You cannot change that. So let it not bother you too much.
IMHO she is too ignorant and a obnoxious fool to deserve any argument in this matter (even through email).
Those who have been in contact with the IA officers would tell you about the level of courtesy that they show to women ( both their fellow female officers and officers' wives).
It is indeed literally "taught" in armed forces to always show courtesy and respect towards women.
I have been in close contact with IA officers all my life. If an officer is fool enough to misbehave with a woman (even in inebriated state), the consequences are very bad. And she talks of physical abuse?
If not anything else, the women officers are treated better than their male counterparts.
Senior officers do not hesitate to talk "really" harshly with their junior officers at some mistake by the latter. But women officers are treated much better in that regard.
The world is full of ignorant fools. You cannot change that. So let it not bother you too much.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
someone needs to hammer India Today with emails
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=11722
Its a crying shame that we let Musharraf step on our soil
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=11722
Its a crying shame that we let Musharraf step on our soil
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
oh..nothin to say then..rohitvats wrote:
The HQ, some troops and support elements were airlifted post haste from Bareilly. You see, dad was part of the formation in 1999 and 2002.
ya...sorry for the wrong info...8 mountain div was into CI Ops..it was Northern command reserve long ago..dunno the exact period..Another thing, why would 8th Mountain be called Northern Command Reserve? It is full time into CI Ops.
39th Mountain Division is what I think the Northern Command Reserve.
but from what i read, even 39th M Div was into CI Ops prior to Kargil and then in war situation it was placed as 16 corps reserves.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
RayC sir,
Have you come across or know about "Operation Rachna"?
If someone can throw light on it, please.
Thanks in advanace
Have you come across or know about "Operation Rachna"?
If someone can throw light on it, please.
Thanks in advanace
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
She probably won't clear SSB ...rkirankr wrote:Tell her army is better off without herkittoo wrote:X-posting from How to Join Army thread-
Here is an incident that not only hurt me as an Indian but simply shocked on the ignorance and false sense of knowledge and righteousness in people of India.
My sister is planning to give Defence services exam, and was discussing it recently with another friend of hers. The discussion turned, somehow, towards the direction that there is a lot of physical abuse of women in Indian army. While I certainly believe that it isnt as much as many sensationalist news channels would like you to believe, these exact words were uttered by one of her friends, which (when my sister told me) left me in disgust-
"Tujhe pata hai main kya karungi? Main exam dungi army ka aur jab ho jaayega na selection toh laat maar kar aa jaaungi, itni gandi hai apni Army" (You know what will I do? I will give the exam and when I will get selected, I will throw it away cause thats what our Army deserves.)
I dont know but somehow these words, even though said by an stranger, have left a scar on my heart. I cant even imagine how this thinking fermented in her, but I am planning to send an email. As much as I would have liked to confront her directly or over the phone, I can't do it cause she is my sister's friend and if a heated debate follows then it will be harmful for their friendship (and I will also doubt that I will be control myself on the phone if she repeats any of this). Any suggestions by jingos on what I should add in the mail?
You know the saying ... "empty pots make more noise" or something to that effect ...
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Sumeet_S: The 39th has always been part of 16 Corps. It still continues post the 16 Corps split. IIRC, with 16 Corps earlier having 5 Infantry/Moutain Divisions, 39 was the reserve formation for the Northern Command.but from what i read, even 39th M Div was into CI Ops prior to Kargil and then in war situation it was placed as 16 corps reserves
As for the 8th Mountain, let me post this about 8th and its chequred history in CI Ops from Orbat .com:
Hope this helps. RayC Sir can help dispel any doubts.1972-1990
Northeast Counterinsurgency.
This division has the greatest number of counterinsurgency battalion/years of any army in the world.
In 1972, it controlled 36 battalions – a reinforced corps worth of infantry – for CI operations in the Northeast.
1986
56th Mountain Brigade (6 battalions)
59th Mountain Brigade
81st Mountain Brigade
1991-99
Kashmir Counterinsurgency, HQ Sharifabad.
1999
The division shifts June 1 to Dras for the Kargil War
1999-Present
Assigned to XIV Corps. Area of Responsibility is from Matayan to west of the Siachin.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
meant to say the same...probably i didn't put it right..what i meant to say was that it wasrohitvats wrote: The 39th has always been part of 16 Corps. It still continues post the 16 Corps split.
removed from CI Ops and put as reserves.
Few lines from the book i read:
Kargil: From surprise to victory.
By Gen VP Malik.
1) Ch-6, Pg 129 says
"8 M Div which was a Northern Command Reserve and deployed in countermilitancy role in
kashmir valley and whose two brigades had already moved to dras and mashkoh sectors"
the next line reads
"Similarly 39 Mountain Division was instructed to disengage from countermilitancy
operations and be available to 16 corps for any contingency, including offensive tasks"
2) Ch-7, Pg 142 says
"The decision to move 8 M DIV had been deliberate. This division was a Northern Command
Reserve Formation"
Also read about 8 M DIV from Orbat.com
So...was kinda confused.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Op Rachna, if my memory does not fail me, were posts created along the LC, after the delineation caused by the change in territory captured during the 1971 War to plug gaps as also dominate the LC physically so that there could be no incursion by Pakistan. They did not have to be tactically sound nor were they to be there during active operation.nelson wrote:RayC sir,
Have you come across or know about "Operation Rachna"?
If someone can throw light on it, please.
Thanks in advanace
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
If I remember yesterday this thread had posts on an article being circulated by e-mail. Can any gentleman please forward that to my ID- madhusudan.kiran@gmail.com ?
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Kiran
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Kiran
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 035717.cms
Stray Dogs: Army's new best friends....
Stray Dogs: Army's new best friends....
The Army is training stray dogs for help in detecting intruders and thus stop infiltration from across the border. The Line of Control (LoC) between Akhnoor and Sunderbani sectors is regularly used by infiltrators to cross fence. Though troops remains vigilant round-the-clock, there are some moments when fence remains unattended, giving enough time to intruders to cross over. It is this gap that the Army hopes the dogs could fill.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Great Sir, that's like it. Can you suggest some source from where I can tap more information. Thanks.RayC wrote:Op Rachna, if my memory does not fail me, were posts created along the LC, after the delineation caused by the change in territory captured during the 1971 War to plug gaps as also dominate the LC physically so that there could be no incursion by Pakistan. They did not have to be tactically sound nor were they to be there during active operation.nelson wrote:RayC sir,
Have you come across or know about "Operation Rachna"?
If someone can throw light on it, please.
Thanks in advanace
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
No idea.nelson wrote:Great Sir, that's like it. Can you suggest some source from where I can tap more information. Thanks.RayC wrote:
Op Rachna, if my memory does not fail me, were posts created along the LC, after the delineation caused by the change in territory captured during the 1971 War to plug gaps as also dominate the LC physically so that there could be no incursion by Pakistan. They did not have to be tactically sound nor were they to be there during active operation.
Never checked back since those days what is the latest.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 046461.cms
A black day. FOUR gallant soldiers marytred. A marine commando was apparently among those killed. Govt isnt giving out the name yet. Any confirmation?
A black day. FOUR gallant soldiers marytred. A marine commando was apparently among those killed. Govt isnt giving out the name yet. Any confirmation?
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Sorry for the slightly silly question but I've always been interested in knowing about combat medics and how they operate in the Indian army. Can anyone who served in IA tell me what the procedure is for emergency medevac in CI operations? Do we have helicopter evacuation for casualties? If so, is this done only after the area is sanitised following completion of the operation? Or do we have military ambulances lumbering up to the battlezone to pick up casualties?pmund wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 046461.cms
A black day. FOUR gallant soldiers marytred. A marine commando was apparently among those killed. Govt isnt giving out the name yet. Any confirmation?
Also, on a more general note, how many medics usually accompany an assault squad (assume there are 10-15 members in each squad)? I would assume that there would be at least one medic trained in ER techniques for every 10-15 soldiers. Perhaps the ratio would be 1:5 for SF teams?
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Somewhere SSreidhar was asking why the house was not brought down
According to Gaurav, major Suri was not given permission
Someone's head needs to roll for that
http://headlinestoday.intoday.in/index. ... ntid=63655
What a waste??
According to Gaurav, major Suri was not given permission
Someone's head needs to roll for that
http://headlinestoday.intoday.in/index. ... ntid=63655
What a waste??
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
I have always wondered about the bayonet fighting techniques taught by Indian Army.
For example, consider the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBwyeVdT ... re=related
Just after 1:30, the cadets start running in extremely short steps. I always find myself mystified as to the purpose of it. What is the reason behind these extremely short steps? Why not regular run up?
To the layman's mind, these run ups with extremely short steps would seem to be impractical. Yet this is how it has been taught. So there must be some logic here which is unfortunately escaping me.
Also after piercing the first sack, the cadets run towards the second erect sack. They then stop their momentum and jump. Why stop the momentum? Perhaps to maintain balance? If so, then why jump?
Could RayC Sir or some other Guru forgive my ignorance and shed some light on this?
For example, consider the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBwyeVdT ... re=related
Just after 1:30, the cadets start running in extremely short steps. I always find myself mystified as to the purpose of it. What is the reason behind these extremely short steps? Why not regular run up?
To the layman's mind, these run ups with extremely short steps would seem to be impractical. Yet this is how it has been taught. So there must be some logic here which is unfortunately escaping me.
Also after piercing the first sack, the cadets run towards the second erect sack. They then stop their momentum and jump. Why stop the momentum? Perhaps to maintain balance? If so, then why jump?
Could RayC Sir or some other Guru forgive my ignorance and shed some light on this?
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Extremely disheartening to read that Major Suri was not given permission to bring down the house..Surya wrote: According to Gaurav, major Suri was not given permission
http://headlinestoday.intoday.in/index. ... ntid=63655
Was the house and 2 terrorists worth more than major Suri's life....
sad...too sad...
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Good question.Parijat Gaur wrote:I have always wondered about the bayonet fighting techniques taught by Indian Army.
For example, consider the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBwyeVdT ... re=related
Just after 1:30, the cadets start running in extremely short steps. I always find myself mystified as to the purpose of it. What is the reason behind these extremely short steps? Why not regular run up?
To the layman's mind, these run ups with extremely short steps would seem to be impractical. Yet this is how it has been taught. So there must be some logic here which is unfortunately escaping me.
Also after piercing the first sack, the cadets run towards the second erect sack. They then stop their momentum and jump. Why stop the momentum? Perhaps to maintain balance? If so, then why jump?
Could RayC Sir or some other Guru forgive my ignorance and shed some light on this?
Never thought of it that way.
But from experience, I can say that if one curls up and makes himself compact, the energy within the body is more compressed for positive and strong action.
You stop and jump into the target in bayonet fighting with full momentum so that you don't lose direction and you shove the bayonet with full force!
Karate chaps or Boxers (done both) also have short and terminal fast movements.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Thanks Sir. I had always wondered about this.
If I could test your patience some more, I have two more questions.
1>What is generally the range at which the IA practice firing their rifles?
Does every firing range in India is of some same standard distance? Or does it differ from place to place?
If it differs, then could you give me some approximate average distance?
2> Successfully firing at a target stationed beyond 200 meters using iron sight seems nearly impossible to me. Even for the well trained IA personnel, I would guess that it would not be an easy task.
And I cannot even imagine how one manages to shoot beyond 300-400 mts. But I guess situations are bound to arise requiring such marksmanship. But with magnifying optical sights, I guess that the task would become significantly less difficult.
So my question is, is the IA making any demands to equip most of its infantry with optical sights? I can understand that even with optical sights, only an expert marksman can be confident at engaging targets beyond 300 meters. But even for an average jawan, would it not significantly increase his chances of successfully hitting not only distant targets, but also closer ones?
Or is it that IA has already demanded this, but as with UBGLs, the pace of producing them is pathetically slow?
If I could test your patience some more, I have two more questions.
1>What is generally the range at which the IA practice firing their rifles?
Does every firing range in India is of some same standard distance? Or does it differ from place to place?
If it differs, then could you give me some approximate average distance?
2> Successfully firing at a target stationed beyond 200 meters using iron sight seems nearly impossible to me. Even for the well trained IA personnel, I would guess that it would not be an easy task.
And I cannot even imagine how one manages to shoot beyond 300-400 mts. But I guess situations are bound to arise requiring such marksmanship. But with magnifying optical sights, I guess that the task would become significantly less difficult.
So my question is, is the IA making any demands to equip most of its infantry with optical sights? I can understand that even with optical sights, only an expert marksman can be confident at engaging targets beyond 300 meters. But even for an average jawan, would it not significantly increase his chances of successfully hitting not only distant targets, but also closer ones?
Or is it that IA has already demanded this, but as with UBGLs, the pace of producing them is pathetically slow?
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
I am not too sure what the various practices that are fired.Parijat Gaur wrote:Thanks Sir. I had always wondered about this.
If I could test your patience some more, I have two more questions.
1>What is generally the range at which the IA practice firing their rifles?
Does every firing range in India is of some same standard distance? Or does it differ from place to place?
If it differs, then could you give me some approximate average distance?
2> Successfully firing at a target stationed beyond 200 meters using iron sight seems nearly impossible to me. Even for the well trained IA personnel, I would guess that it would not be an easy task.
And I cannot even imagine how one manages to shoot beyond 300-400 mts. But I guess situations are bound to arise requiring such marksmanship. But with magnifying optical sights, I guess that the task would become significantly less difficult.
So my question is, is the IA making any demands to equip most of its infantry with optical sights? I can understand that even with optical sights, only an expert marksman can be confident at engaging targets beyond 300 meters. But even for an average jawan, would it not significantly increase his chances of successfully hitting not only distant targets, but also closer ones?
Or is it that IA has already demanded this, but as with UBGLs, the pace of producing them is pathetically slow?
At the long range, 300m is the maximum. Practices are at different distance and different modes. There is also . snap shooting, timed and not times.
No, it is not difficult and you can see the target and it is not that difficult. I preferred open sights. It was more challenging.
The whole issue of new equipment is a case of balancing the budget and it is not the Army alone that requires refurbishing. Navy and the Airforce too and within the Army, so many Arms and Services.
Usually, those units which are committed to operations are the first ones who get kitted.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
The Infantry Units in IA have a system of Regimental Medical Officers (RMO). These are doctors (MBBS) from Army Medical Corps who serve a deputation of 2-3years in Infantry Units. They are supported by a small group of Nursing Assistants(NA). The job of the RMO is take care of general ailments and refer the balance to higher medical units/hospitals. The ratio you refer to is untenable. Given tha there are ~800 odd men in an Infantry Unit, you can see the number of medica required.abhishekm wrote:Sorry for the slightly silly question but I've always been interested in knowing about combat medics and how they operate in the Indian army. Can anyone who served in IA tell me what the procedure is for emergency medevac in CI operations? Do we have helicopter evacuation for casualties? If so, is this done only after the area is sanitised following completion of the operation? Or do we have military ambulances lumbering up to the battlezone to pick up casualties?pmund wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 046461.cms
A black day. FOUR gallant soldiers marytred. A marine commando was apparently among those killed. Govt isnt giving out the name yet. Any confirmation?
Also, on a more general note, how many medics usually accompany an assault squad (assume there are 10-15 members in each squad)? I would assume that there would be at least one medic trained in ER techniques for every 10-15 soldiers. Perhaps the ratio would be 1:5 for SF teams?
As for Medevac/Casevac, the Army Aviation Corps (AAC) units are there to support the formations. As COIN Ops are generally a localized affair, a suitable landing ground screened and covered by own troops will be used in case of emergency.
Also, the landing areas/grounds close to military hospitals are clearly marked and AAC/IAF would have worked out the SOP for landing and taking off from a given location. As an example, the AAC (with Cheetah/Chetak) and IAF with Mi-8/17 had carried out a landing and take-off runs from the parade ground of a large IA hospital in NE and worked out the SOPs. While the ground size was alright, given the surrounding tree cover, the Mi-8/17 had to adopt a near vertical takeoff versus the rolling and more shallow one they generally use. Some trees had to be chopped to assit a more shallow takeoff. But this did place limit on the takeoff weight of the heptr.
As an tid-bid, the RMO is SF units are themselves SF qualified and serve the complete probation. You can come across surgeons and medical specialist with BALIDAN badge adorning their right pockets.
Hope this helps.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
I was noting some of the newer low-tech military innovations around the world, and wonder where India stands in incorporating such concepts.
Helmets with provisions for communications:
Not helmets with built in radios, but helmets with mount points/design shape to allow for earpieces/cups and a point on the back to mount a specially designed communications box (eg. standard military radio).
Uniforms with built in tourniquets:
The pants and jacket sleeves have points where a tourniquet is run through the material and the end is secured with velcro or a buttoned flap. I've read that various specops around the world use something similar.
Plate carriers:
Not exactly a "forgotten" or unknown concept, but something that really needs to be looked at for wider use. After all, flak jackets are mainly just crap.
Internal frame rucksacks:
I know that the USMC uses some, but I'm not sure if India uses them. Again this is something that needs widespread use to replace external frame rucksacks used by most other services/militaries.
SCBA/Postive pressure/Combination filter and air NBC masks:
Basically something more effective than the standard canister masks used nowadays.
Helmets with provisions for communications:
Not helmets with built in radios, but helmets with mount points/design shape to allow for earpieces/cups and a point on the back to mount a specially designed communications box (eg. standard military radio).
Uniforms with built in tourniquets:
The pants and jacket sleeves have points where a tourniquet is run through the material and the end is secured with velcro or a buttoned flap. I've read that various specops around the world use something similar.
Plate carriers:
Not exactly a "forgotten" or unknown concept, but something that really needs to be looked at for wider use. After all, flak jackets are mainly just crap.
Internal frame rucksacks:
I know that the USMC uses some, but I'm not sure if India uses them. Again this is something that needs widespread use to replace external frame rucksacks used by most other services/militaries.
SCBA/Postive pressure/Combination filter and air NBC masks:
Basically something more effective than the standard canister masks used nowadays.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
As an extension of series of discussions on the TOE of various formations of IA spread over different threads, I'm putting down the description in one place for further reference. The same has been collated from open source material. The single most important site being Orbat.Com maintained by Ravi Rikhye. These are not definite TOE and should be used only as guide.
The data is available here:http://orbat.com/site/cimh/index.html
Please feel free to add to the details provided in the sections below. Since, Sanjay M and YI Patel have been active recently, I'll request their indulgence and provide inputs,
Armored Regiment
Personnel:490
RHQ
Tanks: 3 Command Tanks
APC: 6 - (This is the authorized level. Not sure if the same are held in the mentioned numbers. Likely to be less)
Reconnaissance Troop
Light Tanks:9-(again authorized number. The same are not held. The job is done by soft skinned vehicles, Jongas in most cases)
Tank Squadrons - 3
Sqn. HQ
Tanks - 2
ARV - 1
Tank Troops/Sqd. - 4
Tanks/Troop - 3
Tanks/Sqd. - 14
Total
Tanks - 45
Light Tanks - Authorized-9; Held-0
ARV-3
APC - Athorized-6;Held - Less than 6
Below mentioned are comments from Orbat.Com on total tank strength including attrition reserve:
Operational:30
Training:15
Reserve:10
The data is available here:http://orbat.com/site/cimh/index.html
Please feel free to add to the details provided in the sections below. Since, Sanjay M and YI Patel have been active recently, I'll request their indulgence and provide inputs,
Armored Regiment
Personnel:490
RHQ
Tanks: 3 Command Tanks
APC: 6 - (This is the authorized level. Not sure if the same are held in the mentioned numbers. Likely to be less)
Reconnaissance Troop
Light Tanks:9-(again authorized number. The same are not held. The job is done by soft skinned vehicles, Jongas in most cases)
Tank Squadrons - 3
Sqn. HQ
Tanks - 2
ARV - 1
Tank Troops/Sqd. - 4
Tanks/Troop - 3
Tanks/Sqd. - 14
Total
Tanks - 45
Light Tanks - Authorized-9; Held-0
ARV-3
APC - Athorized-6;Held - Less than 6
Below mentioned are comments from Orbat.Com on total tank strength including attrition reserve:
Added Later: The indicative break up of tank strength is as follows:At the time (1965) a regiment was authorized 27 additional medium tanks as attrition/maintenance reserve.
The figure was nominal insofar as only 250 Centurions (62 per regiment) were purchased for the Armored Division.
By 1988, the allotment was 62 tanks per regiment, but T-72 regiments had only 55
Operational:30
Training:15
Reserve:10
Last edited by rohitvats on 27 Sep 2009 23:49, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Mechanized Regiments
Personnel-1050
HQ Company: 3 APC
Recce Platoon:Soft skinned vehicles - (Need more clarity on this. I think there is dedicated recce version of BMP-II)
Signal Section:3 APC
Pioneers: 2 APC
Regimental Aid Post:2 APC
Mechanized Companies:3
Mechanized Company
Company HQ
APC:2
Mortar APC:2
Mechanized Platoons/Company:3
Platoon HQ:1
Sections/Platoon:3
APC/Section:1
APCs/Company:16
Total APCs: 58
Personnel-1050
HQ Company: 3 APC
Recce Platoon:Soft skinned vehicles - (Need more clarity on this. I think there is dedicated recce version of BMP-II)
Signal Section:3 APC
Pioneers: 2 APC
Regimental Aid Post:2 APC
Mechanized Companies:3
Mechanized Company
Company HQ
APC:2
Mortar APC:2
Mechanized Platoons/Company:3
Platoon HQ:1
Sections/Platoon:3
APC/Section:1
APCs/Company:16
Total APCs: 58
Last edited by rohitvats on 27 Sep 2009 20:23, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Independent Armored Brigade
Brigade HQ Sqn.
- Command Tanks:3
(I) Recce Squandron:1 - Need more clarity on the status of this segment
- Tanks:18
Armored Regiments:3
Mechanized Regiments:1
Medium Artillery Regiment
- Guns:18
R&O Flight
- Helicopters:5 (4+1 reserve) - This will be alloted from the Corps R&O Squadron of AAC
Engineer Company
EME Company
Field Ambulance:1
ASC Company
Signal Company
Brigade Ordnance Unit
Total
Command Tanks:3
Tanks:153
APC:58
Note: APCs and Tanks are also held by other units linke the Engineers (Mine Trawls and Dozer Tanks). Plus there will be usual compliment of BLT (Bridge Laying Tanks) and Armored Recovery Vehicles (ARV), held by the formation and its units
Brigade HQ Sqn.
- Command Tanks:3
(I) Recce Squandron:1 - Need more clarity on the status of this segment
- Tanks:18
Armored Regiments:3
Mechanized Regiments:1
Medium Artillery Regiment
- Guns:18
R&O Flight
- Helicopters:5 (4+1 reserve) - This will be alloted from the Corps R&O Squadron of AAC
Engineer Company
EME Company
Field Ambulance:1
ASC Company
Signal Company
Brigade Ordnance Unit
Total
Command Tanks:3
Tanks:153
APC:58
Note: APCs and Tanks are also held by other units linke the Engineers (Mine Trawls and Dozer Tanks). Plus there will be usual compliment of BLT (Bridge Laying Tanks) and Armored Recovery Vehicles (ARV), held by the formation and its units
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Armored Division
Division HQ
Reconnaissance & Support Battalion
- R&S Companies: 3
- Tentative:1 Tank Sqn.+1 BMP Company+1 Wheeled Recce Company
Armored Brigades:3
No.1 Armored Brigade
- Armored Regiments:2
- Mechanized Regiments:2
No.2 and No.3 Armored Brigade
- Armored Regiments:2
- Mechanized Regiments:1
R&O Flight
- Helicopters:4+1 Reserve - Alloted from Corps R&O Squadron
- Some sources also attribute the Mi-35 Sqn. as part of Armored Divisions.
Artillery Brigade
- Medium Regiments:4
-Guns/Regiment:18
SATA Battery - Surveillance and Target Acquisition - (I'm not aware of present strength. But these operate the UAVs as well)
AD(I) Brigade:1 - These are held by the parent Corps of the Armored Division. But de-facto part of Armored Division.
IIRC, the TOE is not standard. It can contain the permutation and combination of the following:
- AD Regiment (SP) - ZSU-23-4
- AD Regiment (SP) - Tungushka
- Light AD Regiment (SP) - Strela-10M (SA-13)
- AD Missile Regiment
Signal Regiment:1
ASC Unit:1
EME Regiment:1
Engineer Regiment:1
Division Ordnance Unit:1
Field Ambulances:2
Total
Tanks:276
APC:232 - does not include the APC strength with R&S Regiment.
Guns:72
Division HQ
Reconnaissance & Support Battalion
- R&S Companies: 3
- Tentative:1 Tank Sqn.+1 BMP Company+1 Wheeled Recce Company
Armored Brigades:3
No.1 Armored Brigade
- Armored Regiments:2
- Mechanized Regiments:2
No.2 and No.3 Armored Brigade
- Armored Regiments:2
- Mechanized Regiments:1
R&O Flight
- Helicopters:4+1 Reserve - Alloted from Corps R&O Squadron
- Some sources also attribute the Mi-35 Sqn. as part of Armored Divisions.
Artillery Brigade
- Medium Regiments:4
-Guns/Regiment:18
SATA Battery - Surveillance and Target Acquisition - (I'm not aware of present strength. But these operate the UAVs as well)
AD(I) Brigade:1 - These are held by the parent Corps of the Armored Division. But de-facto part of Armored Division.
IIRC, the TOE is not standard. It can contain the permutation and combination of the following:
- AD Regiment (SP) - ZSU-23-4
- AD Regiment (SP) - Tungushka
- Light AD Regiment (SP) - Strela-10M (SA-13)
- AD Missile Regiment
Signal Regiment:1
ASC Unit:1
EME Regiment:1
Engineer Regiment:1
Division Ordnance Unit:1
Field Ambulances:2
Total
Tanks:276
APC:232 - does not include the APC strength with R&S Regiment.
Guns:72
Last edited by rohitvats on 27 Sep 2009 23:45, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Till about the 71 war, the Armoured Division (1 Div) consisted of 1 Armoured Brigade (with 6 Tank regts IIRC or atleast 4) and 1 (Lorried) Infantry Brigade (they were 1 Bde and 43 Lorried Inf Bde respectively).
At some point 43 Bde changed over to Mechanised (and possibly now Armoured). When did the whole Division change over to three Armoured Brigade format?
At some point 43 Bde changed over to Mechanised (and possibly now Armoured). When did the whole Division change over to three Armoured Brigade format?
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Jagan Garu, for the shift, please refer to this comment from Orbat.com:Jagan wrote:Till about the 71 war, the Armoured Division (1 Div) consisted of 1 Armoured Brigade (with 6 Tank regts IIRC or atleast 4) and 1 (Lorried) Infantry Brigade (they were 1 Bde and 43 Lorried Inf Bde respectively).
At some point 43 Bde changed over to Mechanised (and possibly now Armoured). When did the whole Division change over to three Armoured Brigade format?
31st Armored Division was itself raised initially with 2 Armored Brigades and one SP Arty Bde. One of the Armored Brigades wad the original 2(I) Armored Brigade while the other was a new raising.Still (1971 war) following British World War II organizations, the division had only two manuvere brigades with 4 tank and 3 APC battalions. The idea was that the one tank, one mechanized, and one artillery brigade made a balanced team. In 1972, when the new 31st Armored Division was raised, 1st Armored Division began to transition to a three brigade structure of six tank regiments and four mechanized infantry battalions, division artillery, and strong SP AA units later termed as a brigade.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
thanks rohit, somehow i missed that bit even though I read up on Orbat sometime ago
BTW this page http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... oured.html may need your review and inputs. (based on Open source ofcourse!)
BTW this page http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... oured.html may need your review and inputs. (based on Open source ofcourse!)
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
casevac helo in J&K.
rohit, good job. I'll come back with comments (and questions) when I have time
to go through them in detail.
regards.
rohit, good job. I'll come back with comments (and questions) when I have time
to go through them in detail.
regards.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Continuation of the TOE posted earlier:
Mechanized (I) Brigade
This is a rarity in Indian Army. We only have two of the kind. 55(I) Mech Bde (XI Corps-Beas, Punjab) and 340(I) Mech Bde (XII Corps-Jodhpur). The 33rd Armored Division was raised as a Mech. Division, but then susequently converted to Armored Division.
Brigade HQ Sqn.
- Command Tanks:3
Armored Regiments:1
Mechanized Regiments:2
Medium Artillery Regiment :1
- Guns:18
Engineer Company
EME Company
Field Ambulance:1
ASC Company
Signal Company
Brigade Ordnance Unit
Total
Command Tanks:3
Tanks:45+10
APC:116
Note: APCs and Tanks are also held by other units linke the Engineers (Mine Trawls and Dozer Tanks). Plus there will be usual compliment of BLT (Bridge Laying Tanks) and Armored Recovery Vehicles (ARV), held by the formation and its units
Mechanized (I) Brigade
This is a rarity in Indian Army. We only have two of the kind. 55(I) Mech Bde (XI Corps-Beas, Punjab) and 340(I) Mech Bde (XII Corps-Jodhpur). The 33rd Armored Division was raised as a Mech. Division, but then susequently converted to Armored Division.
Brigade HQ Sqn.
- Command Tanks:3
Armored Regiments:1
Mechanized Regiments:2
Medium Artillery Regiment :1
- Guns:18
Engineer Company
EME Company
Field Ambulance:1
ASC Company
Signal Company
Brigade Ordnance Unit
Total
Command Tanks:3
Tanks:45+10
APC:116
Note: APCs and Tanks are also held by other units linke the Engineers (Mine Trawls and Dozer Tanks). Plus there will be usual compliment of BLT (Bridge Laying Tanks) and Armored Recovery Vehicles (ARV), held by the formation and its units
Last edited by rohitvats on 30 Sep 2009 11:56, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
RAPID Division
IA had four of these till some time ago. These are 24th,18th,36th and 14th. As per recent reports posted on Orbat.com, the number has gone up to six with 7th under conversion. My gut feeling tells me that 12th Division under XII Corps is prime one of the converted ones.
Division HQ
Reconnaissance & Support Battalion
-HQ Companies
-R & S Companies:3
-Recce Company:1
--ATGM Platoon
--Mortar Platoon
--MMG Platoon
Armored Brigade:1
-Armored Regiments:2
-Mechanized Regiments:2
Infantry Brigades:2
-Infantry battalions/Brigade:3
Artillery Brigade:1
-Medium Regiments:4
-Guns/Regiment:18
-MLRS Battery:1
-SATA Battery
R&O Flight:1
Division Ordnance Unit
Engineer Regiment:1
ASC Battalion:1
EME Battalion:1
Signals Regiment:1
Field Ambulance:2
Total:
Infantry Battalions:6
Tanks:92
AFV:116
Note:Additional Tanks and APC are held by EME and Engineers units as well like BLT,ARV and command vehicles.
IA had four of these till some time ago. These are 24th,18th,36th and 14th. As per recent reports posted on Orbat.com, the number has gone up to six with 7th under conversion. My gut feeling tells me that 12th Division under XII Corps is prime one of the converted ones.
Division HQ
Reconnaissance & Support Battalion
-HQ Companies
-R & S Companies:3
-Recce Company:1
--ATGM Platoon
--Mortar Platoon
--MMG Platoon
Armored Brigade:1
-Armored Regiments:2
-Mechanized Regiments:2
Infantry Brigades:2
-Infantry battalions/Brigade:3
Artillery Brigade:1
-Medium Regiments:4
-Guns/Regiment:18
-MLRS Battery:1
-SATA Battery
R&O Flight:1
Division Ordnance Unit
Engineer Regiment:1
ASC Battalion:1
EME Battalion:1
Signals Regiment:1
Field Ambulance:2
Total:
Infantry Battalions:6
Tanks:92
AFV:116
Note:Additional Tanks and APC are held by EME and Engineers units as well like BLT,ARV and command vehicles.
Last edited by rohitvats on 30 Sep 2009 11:57, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Infantry Division
Division HQ
Division Tank Regiment
-Tanks:45
Infantry Brigades:3
-Infantry Battalions/Brigade:3
Artillery Brigade:1
-SATA Battery
-Medium Regiment:1 - In IA, caliber above 120mm and upto 160mm is termed as Medium. So, the medium regiment in IA cab have either the M-46 (130mm) or the venerable Bofors-FH-77b (155mm).IIRC, Armored Divisions and Armored (I) Bde and RAPIDs have the 155mm guns in their Medium Regiment
--Guns:18
---Batteries:3
----Guns/Battery:6
-Field Regiments:3 - Caliber:105mm (IFG)
--Guns:18
---Batteries:3
----Guns/Battery:6
-Light Regiments:1 - Caliber:120mm Mortars
--Mortars:12
---Batteries:2
----Mortars/Battery:6
**As per Sanjay, some of these have converted to Field Regiment Role. I have no indp. confirmation
R&O Flight:1 - to be alloted from Corps R&O Squadron
Division Ordnance Unit
Engineer Regiment:1
ASC Battalion:1
EME Battalion:1
Signals Regiment:1
Field Ambulance:2
Total
Infantry Battalions:9
Tanks:45
Division HQ
Division Tank Regiment
-Tanks:45
Infantry Brigades:3
-Infantry Battalions/Brigade:3
Artillery Brigade:1
-SATA Battery
-Medium Regiment:1 - In IA, caliber above 120mm and upto 160mm is termed as Medium. So, the medium regiment in IA cab have either the M-46 (130mm) or the venerable Bofors-FH-77b (155mm).IIRC, Armored Divisions and Armored (I) Bde and RAPIDs have the 155mm guns in their Medium Regiment
--Guns:18
---Batteries:3
----Guns/Battery:6
-Field Regiments:3 - Caliber:105mm (IFG)
--Guns:18
---Batteries:3
----Guns/Battery:6
-Light Regiments:1 - Caliber:120mm Mortars
--Mortars:12
---Batteries:2
----Mortars/Battery:6
**As per Sanjay, some of these have converted to Field Regiment Role. I have no indp. confirmation
R&O Flight:1 - to be alloted from Corps R&O Squadron
Division Ordnance Unit
Engineer Regiment:1
ASC Battalion:1
EME Battalion:1
Signals Regiment:1
Field Ambulance:2
Total
Infantry Battalions:9
Tanks:45
Last edited by rohitvats on 30 Sep 2009 11:59, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Thank rohitvats, this is really helpful in understanding IA and its doctrines, actions etc...
May I make a small suggestion? Would you like to format the data a little bit so that it is a little easier to see the break down by components.
Whenever a sub component if being referred to, it could be indented a bit so that we can quickly see whats happening there.
Could this info be also posted on the Indian army page on BR?
May I make a small suggestion? Would you like to format the data a little bit so that it is a little easier to see the break down by components.
Whenever a sub component if being referred to, it could be indented a bit so that we can quickly see whats happening there.
Could this info be also posted on the Indian army page on BR?
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Sanku, some of the post made earlier are locked and I cannot edit/modify them. Also, indentation does not seem to work. I tried using it but everything gets right alinged as u post the articel. BTW, I've tried using '-' symbol to signify sub ordinate unit/comment. If you have any doubts, please feel free to ask. I'll reply as best as I can.Sanku wrote:Thank rohitvats, this is really helpful in understanding IA and its doctrines, actions etc...
May I make a small suggestion? Would you like to format the data a little bit so that it is a little easier to see the break down by components.
Whenever a sub component if being referred to, it could be indented a bit so that we can quickly see whats happening there.
Could this info be also posted on the Indian army page on BR?
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Sometime back there was a discussion on the likely spread of Armored Regiments in IA.I'm adding the likely spread of Mechanized Regiments to the information.This is how it ideally should be:
1. Armored Divisions:3
-Armored Regiments/Div:6
-Mechanized Regiments/Div:4
-Total
--Armored:18
--Mechanized:12
2. Armored(I) Brigades:7
-Armored Regiment/Bde:3
-Mechanized/Bde:1
-Total
--Armored:22
--Mechanized:8
**This is because 14(I) Armd.Bde is supposed to have 4 Armored and 2 Mechanized Regiments.
3. Mechanized(I) Brigades:2
-Armored Regiments/Bde:1
-Mechanized Regiment/Bde:2
-Total
--Armored:2
--Mechanized:4
4. RAPIDS:7 - Up from earlier 4. 7th under conversion to RAPID
-Armored Regiments/Division:2
-Mechanized Regiment/Div:2
-Total
--Armored:14
--Mechanized:14
Grand Total:
--Armored Regiments:56
--Mechanized Regiments:38
If all the above mentioned formations are upto strength, this leaves only 4 Armored Regiments for attachment with Infantry Division. There was a recent report on Orbat.com that 10 odd Armored and Mechanized Battalions are under new raising. But the break up between Armored and Mechanized was not mentioned.
Added Later:
Of the 7 RAPID Divisions used in calculation here, 3 are new conversion. We initially had 4 RAPIDS. Also, each of them had an integral R&S Battalions. These R&S Battalions are part of The Mechanized Regiment. So,if I take only 4 RAPIDS and their integral R&S Battalions into consideration, the total number of Mechanized Regiments*** will be 36. Add two battalions in pure ATGM role, that takes it to 38. Interestingly, the article by Lt. Gen Kamal Matinuddin (retd.) mentions 12th Division as RAPID, and this was in 2002. The balance 2 (out of 40) may be part of this Division. But this is pure guess work.
Assuming the total of 40 Mechanized Battalions holds good, we still need 9 new Mechanized Battalions to equip the new RAPID conversions. Also, 6 additional Armored Regiments will be required.
*** For the uninitiated, The Brigade of Guards and The Mechanized Regiments are the two mechanized regiments of IA.
1. Armored Divisions:3
-Armored Regiments/Div:6
-Mechanized Regiments/Div:4
-Total
--Armored:18
--Mechanized:12
2. Armored(I) Brigades:7
-Armored Regiment/Bde:3
-Mechanized/Bde:1
-Total
--Armored:22
--Mechanized:8
**This is because 14(I) Armd.Bde is supposed to have 4 Armored and 2 Mechanized Regiments.
3. Mechanized(I) Brigades:2
-Armored Regiments/Bde:1
-Mechanized Regiment/Bde:2
-Total
--Armored:2
--Mechanized:4
4. RAPIDS:7 - Up from earlier 4. 7th under conversion to RAPID
-Armored Regiments/Division:2
-Mechanized Regiment/Div:2
-Total
--Armored:14
--Mechanized:14
Grand Total:
--Armored Regiments:56
--Mechanized Regiments:38
If all the above mentioned formations are upto strength, this leaves only 4 Armored Regiments for attachment with Infantry Division. There was a recent report on Orbat.com that 10 odd Armored and Mechanized Battalions are under new raising. But the break up between Armored and Mechanized was not mentioned.
Added Later:
Of the 7 RAPID Divisions used in calculation here, 3 are new conversion. We initially had 4 RAPIDS. Also, each of them had an integral R&S Battalions. These R&S Battalions are part of The Mechanized Regiment. So,if I take only 4 RAPIDS and their integral R&S Battalions into consideration, the total number of Mechanized Regiments*** will be 36. Add two battalions in pure ATGM role, that takes it to 38. Interestingly, the article by Lt. Gen Kamal Matinuddin (retd.) mentions 12th Division as RAPID, and this was in 2002. The balance 2 (out of 40) may be part of this Division. But this is pure guess work.
Assuming the total of 40 Mechanized Battalions holds good, we still need 9 new Mechanized Battalions to equip the new RAPID conversions. Also, 6 additional Armored Regiments will be required.
*** For the uninitiated, The Brigade of Guards and The Mechanized Regiments are the two mechanized regiments of IA.
Last edited by rohitvats on 03 Oct 2009 13:51, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
off the top of my head, isn't the grand total of mech regiments 40 ?
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
Yes, about 40 battalions or so: a little less than half from the Brigade of the Guards and a bit more than half from the Mechanized Infantry Regiment.Rahul M wrote:off the top of my head, isn't the grand total of mech regiments 40 ?
Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion
And IIRC, there are couple of battalions in the Brigade of Guards which still retain the ATGM Battalions role? I remember detachments from 17 Guards ?) being used in ATGM role in Kargil and were attached to various formations.