INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Sep 2009 19:01

The Scorpene deal signed by the NDA had a hefty increase in price when the UPA came into power shortly afterwards,to which PC strongly objected to,later cleared by the cabinet.Going by our former CNS's statements,where he said that we should ignore the delays ,that we should not look at the delay according to the schedule of stages,but in the overall timeframe alloted (like Delhi's Commonwealth Games stadia delays and govt. assurances) for the project.Therefore what is the justification for the price increase,that too making the non-AIP Scorpene of less size than a 3000t Kilo equal in cost to that of a 12000t nuclear SSGN Akula-2+!

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 21 Sep 2009 19:27

nrshah wrote:Forget of tech you have mentioned Philip, even technology that is decades old and will be replaced very shortly will not come without strings attached and not to mention malicious codes........

What is decade old is cheaper and easier to catch up, to begin your R&D base with.

What is latest, is never a part of ToT, unless its from Russia.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 21 Sep 2009 19:49

vishwakarmaa wrote:
nrshah wrote:Forget of tech you have mentioned Philip, even technology that is decades old and will be replaced very shortly will not come without strings attached and not to mention malicious codes........
What is decade old is cheaper and easier to catch up, to begin your R&D base with.

What is latest, is never a part of ToT, unless its from Russia.

bulls eye,

For latest TOT, It can be only long term ally - Russia

For all junks, we can think of Unkil SUBJECT TO CLEARANCE FROM US CONGRESS

-Nitin

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 21 Sep 2009 20:01

Philip wrote:The Scorpene deal signed by the NDA had a hefty increase in price when the UPA came into power shortly afterwards,to which PC strongly objected to,later cleared by the cabinet.Going by our former CNS's statements,where he said that we should ignore the delays ,that we should not look at the delay according to the schedule of stages,but in the overall timeframe alloted (like Delhi's Commonwealth Games stadia delays and govt. assurances) for the project.Therefore what is the justification for the price increase,that too making the non-AIP Scorpene of less size than a 3000t Kilo equal in cost to that of a 12000t nuclear SSGN Akula-2+!

there is no surety that france will not ask more money in future

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 21 Sep 2009 20:56

nrshah wrote: bulls eye,

For latest TOT, It can be only long term ally - Russia

For all junks, we can think of Unkil SUBJECT TO CLEARANCE FROM US CONGRESS

-Nitin

Bull yes, but not eye

Admin Gorky?
T-90 issues?
MKI prices escalation?

let's try and remain within the realms of reality
no one is here for our sake, they are here for the almighty dollar's sake
we need to invest in R&D
thats all saar

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 21 Sep 2009 21:36

Raveen wrote:
nrshah wrote: bulls eye,

For latest TOT, It can be only long term ally - Russia

For all junks, we can think of Unkil SUBJECT TO CLEARANCE FROM US CONGRESS

-Nitin
Bull yes, but not eye

Admin Gorky?
T-90 issues?
MKI prices escalation?

let's try and remain within the realms of reality
no one is here for our sake, they are here for the almighty dollar's sake
we need to invest in R&D
thats all saar

there is no fixed price in defense deal which last almost 1.5 decade and during 15 years lots of thing change,
scorpene deal will take 15 yeas so is cost rising and demand for 2000 crore and there may be hell lot of money being asked in 2014-15 for scorpenes

and even in india the cost shoots to 100% escalation for various projects

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 21 Sep 2009 22:04

Baldev wrote:
Raveen wrote:
Bull yes, but not eye

Admin Gorky?
T-90 issues?
MKI prices escalation?

let's try and remain within the realms of reality
no one is here for our sake, they are here for the almighty dollar's sake
we need to invest in R&D
thats all saar
there is no fixed price in defense deal which last almost 1.5 decade and during 15 years lots of thing change,
scorpene deal will take 15 yeas so is cost rising and demand for 2000 crore and there may be hell lot of money being asked in 2014-15 for scorpenes

and even in india the cost shoots to 100% escalation for various projects

That is why you have enforcable contracts sir (with well defined scope, timeline and price), plus price is only part of the well documented issues we had...the others include delays, issues with spares, quality control, etc.
but let's not hijack the thread
Let's stick to facts and not random bull like Russia is our long term and the US supplies us with junk

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 21 Sep 2009 23:50

Raveen wrote:Bull yes, but not eye

Admin Gorky?
T-90 issues?
MKI prices escalation?

let's try and remain within the realms of reality
no one is here for our sake, they are here for the almighty dollar's sake
we need to invest in R&D
thats all saar

Appreciate your point Raveen,

but firstly we are talking of technology exclusively without relating it to cost.
secondly, even if cost is considered there are two aspect to it...
First, Gorky and MKI even after escalation are cheaper than any other country has to offer. MMRCA is thread is live for references where price of rafale / EF / SH are in excess of 75mn USD whereas MKI which is far more capable is of 50-60mn dollar.

Secondly, please dont be under impression that money buys everything.
can we buy / Lease even first gen SSBN/SSGN/SSN from US with all the USD we have to offer?
Can we get f 22 even for 500 Mn USD per piece?
MKI is the best Russians had. They gave us inspite of fact the Russian Airforce did not have a single aircraft of that caliber...
Also, CNS has recently stated he would be very happy to sign a cheque for 2Bn USD if some body will give his Vik class aircraft carrier.

Finally, escalation is the term which our media has hyped very much. But why not ask media, have they any clue how payment for Arihant consultancy / Help was paid. Reports show no payment released to Soviet / Russia..No dispute on Russian help, please... Even the existence of ATV was denied. How was payment made????
Deals of such nature are very complex in nature.. Dont you think part of escalation was just a tool for paying such consultancy....

With all aforesaid, I endorse your views we need to invest in R & D. But we need external help to bridge the gap of technical expertise between us and world which was created for reasons we all know. Because R & D does not have any short cuts. We cannot directly jump from one gen to next without understanding the first, first. Here we need external help to shorten the time. But again the question is who is ready to help as also from whom we should sought it? Be it Americans who are never reliable? Who seized all the FBW codes / software which was developed by our scientists/experts when we tested nuke? who wants its approval for selling tejas to third party because they were asked to provide 20mn USD consultancy??? Or should it be Russians who have co operated us in every possible field we can think of.

-Nitin

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 22 Sep 2009 00:47

nrshah wrote:
Raveen wrote:Bull yes, but not eye

Admin Gorky?
T-90 issues?
MKI prices escalation?

let's try and remain within the realms of reality
no one is here for our sake, they are here for the almighty dollar's sake
we need to invest in R&D
thats all saar
Appreciate your point Raveen,

but firstly we are talking of technology exclusively without relating it to cost.
secondly, even if cost is considered there are two aspect to it...
First, Gorky and MKI even after escalation are cheaper than any other country has to offer. MMRCA is thread is live for references where price of rafale / EF / SH are in excess of 75mn USD whereas MKI which is far more capable is of 50-60mn dollar.

Secondly, please dont be under impression that money buys everything.
can we buy / Lease even first gen SSBN/SSGN/SSN from US with all the USD we have to offer?
Can we get f 22 even for 500 Mn USD per piece?
MKI is the best Russians had. They gave us inspite of fact the Russian Airforce did not have a single aircraft of that caliber...
Also, CNS has recently stated he would be very happy to sign a cheque for 2Bn USD if some body will give his Vik class aircraft carrier.

Finally, escalation is the term which our media has hyped very much. But why not ask media, have they any clue how payment for Arihant consultancy / Help was paid. Reports show no payment released to Soviet / Russia..No dispute on Russian help, please... Even the existence of ATV was denied. How was payment made????
Deals of such nature are very complex in nature.. Dont you think part of escalation was just a tool for paying such consultancy....

With all aforesaid, I endorse your views we need to invest in R & D. But we need external help to bridge the gap of technical expertise between us and world which was created for reasons we all know. Because R & D does not have any short cuts. We cannot directly jump from one gen to next without understanding the first, first. Here we need external help to shorten the time. But again the question is who is ready to help as also from whom we should sought it? Be it Americans who are never reliable? Who seized all the FBW codes / software which was developed by our scientists/experts when we tested nuke? who wants its approval for selling tejas to third party because they were asked to provide 20mn USD consultancy??? Or should it be Russians who have co operated us in every possible field we can think of.

-Nitin

I agree with most of your post saar, but then again why didn't our 'life long allys' give us cryo tech despite Unkil's pressure?
pt remains, yes they have certain tech available and are willing to sell it to us (just as they are willing and actually selling to our arch nemesis China and it's proxy Porkistan) because our long term goals/stratergy does not affect them in any way either direct or indirect and they need the $$$...thats all.
No one will take a bullet for India, other than Indians...as true for the Ruskies as it is for Unkil...difference is, Ruskies will sell anything to the highest bidder for the $$$ cuz they need it whereas Unkil can afford to be picky and snobby...cause they dont need the money as desperately and also because thier tech (in some if not most cases) is bleeding edge
Unkil hasn't offered the F-22 to anyone...they did offer you the F-35, F-18, F-16, Hawkeye 2C, 2D, etc.
The more we deal with them, the more they can trust us, the more lucrative the future deals between Unkil and India will be...IMHO
Thank you for an intellectual discussion saar
pts well taken...and much appreciated
OT mode off

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 22 Sep 2009 04:56

Any new pictures of the Arihant? What does it really look like?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Sep 2009 21:08

Check the Wiki page. I've put in my schematics there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Technology_Vessel

Also globalsecurity has generously put my schematics on their site without crediting. Although we know by now that the one on global security is not what the sail looks like.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -schem.htm

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 22 Sep 2009 22:10

Those who bought their primary weapons from Unkil are today poodles of Unkil.

We are unable to handle Pakistan because we lack home-grown defense R&D base. The more we buy foreign, more we sink. More we will go into never-ending trap of foreign buys(first russia, now America).

Solution is not western funding. Solution is not Unkil deals. Solution is at home.

Spend 20 years on orchestrating defense private industry at home, without foreign funding. India will emerge stronger than China. Our engineers and academicians are better than Chinese, if not less.

Only thing lacking is, these best people are out of 'defense' R&D loop. Bring them in.

Russia spent 40 years on domestic R&D. Did they run to foreign for R&D help? They pulled help from Jews and overseas community. India never did that. We kept best talent away from defense R&D, by denying them industry level pay, mediocre management. We haven't even did our "best" and we have declared that we can't do it at home. Thats a pure line of thought which supported weapons import lobby in Delhi and they want our leaders to keep buying into this lie of 'inferiority complex'.

Why we never did that and always depend on foreign "lucrative" deals, since 1947?

14 billion dollars spent on imported F18's or Mig-35 will buy us temporary security. But investing those 14 Billion dollars in domestic private defense R&D will bring us everlasting security.

We are continuously buying security from foreign since independence, while other countries(USA, Russia) were busy building security at home. The trend continues today.

Dump MRCA and invest that money in LCA-II, MCA-I and Kaveri-II in joint management with Indian MNC's and best salary levels, hiring directly from experienced private and academic pools.

koti · Post by **koti** » 22 Sep 2009 22:21

The more we deal with them, the more they can trust us, the more lucrative the future deals between Unkil and India will be...IMHO

The fact Raveen is that The more we deal with them, the more they enslave us.
We have seen numerous situations where the so called allies of US have been blackmailed and victimized of the interests of US.
Co-operating with US maybe fruitful in the economic front but it will only be temporary.

I agree with most of your post saar, but then again why didn't our 'life long allys' give us cryo tech despite Unkil's pressure?
pt remains, yes they have certain tech available and are willing to sell it to us (just as they are willing and actually selling to our arch nemesis China and it's proxy Porkistan) because our long term goals/stratergy does not affect them in any way either direct or indirect and they need the $$$...thats all.

Our relation with Russia is not merely about $$$. We received enormous help from Soviets even long before our economy acquired any decency on the international front. They may not take a bullet for us but would not try to arm twist us too.

Continue in relevant thread if intended....

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 22 Sep 2009 22:30

Raveen wrote:I agree with most of your post saar, but then again why didn't our 'life long allys' give us cryo tech despite Unkil's pressure?

Russians are not our slaves. And, we can't always keep crying like 'you didn't gave us the world'.

Its quite common that people know very less about Indo-Russian history because west-aping media never covers it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Sep 2009 22:33

the sons , daughers and in-laws of indian politicians, top businessmen, top military people and bureaucrats tend to study/work/settle in US.

none of these classes can ever contemplate a harder line wrt the US.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 22 Sep 2009 22:40

Singha wrote:the sons , daughers and in-laws of indian politicians, top businessmen, top military people and bureaucrats tend to study/work/settle in US.

Japanese elites are similar. We are on the way to become next puppet of USA.

Interesting thing is, Japanese common people want to stop this puppetism and they have shown their will in choosing an Independent and anti-West political party in elections recently. But I doubt things will change. The west-aping lobbies are too strong in Japan and one newly elected party can't do much.

Same was situation with BJP, when they came to power. It was new party in center and tried to change conventional way of things(doing 'salaam' to West) but found it difficult to win confidence in Indian western business lobby and had to pull legs back from Op-Parakram.

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 22 Sep 2009 23:12

"Check the Wiki page. I've put in my schematics there."
Looks great thanks Gagan

The missile hatches look flush with the hull - are sagaraikas possible with this kind of layout. The chinese sub has such a massive hump in comparison. Also, what about the escape module?

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 22 Sep 2009 23:40

koti wrote:
The more we deal with them, the more they can trust us, the more lucrative the future deals between Unkil and India will be...IMHO
The fact Raveen is that The more we deal with them, the more they enslave us.
We have seen numerous situations where the so called allies of US have been blackmailed and victimized of the interests of US.
Co-operating with US maybe fruitful in the economic front but it will only be temporary.

I agree with most of your post saar, but then again why didn't our 'life long allys' give us cryo tech despite Unkil's pressure?
pt remains, yes they have certain tech available and are willing to sell it to us (just as they are willing and actually selling to our arch nemesis China and it's proxy Porkistan) because our long term goals/stratergy does not affect them in any way either direct or indirect and they need the $$$...thats all.
Our relation with Russia is not merely about $$$. We received enormous help from Soviets even long before our economy acquired any decency on the international front. They may not take a bullet for us but would not try to arm twist us too.

Continue in relevant thread if intended....

EXACTLY my point saar
The Soviets dont exist anymore (our relation with them was probably way more than just $$$)
Our relationship with Russia=$$$ (IMHO)

OT mode off

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 04 Oct 2009 22:51

Cross post from Pok-II thread.

Arun_S wrote:Dear friends, please note that I stand by my statements on BR, and time will reveal the self evident truth. Interesting times lie ahead, and matters will become clearer as major events unfold.

It is sad to note that BRF no longer represent "Bharat" and has become a propaganda media for GoI official line; an echo-chamber lead by Shiv.

I hereby withdraw from BR and BRF.

My thanks to everybody for your support, discussions and bearing with me.

There is a real "Bharat" out there to serve, and I urge my friends to look up to it.

I ask the powers to be on BRF to leave my last post intact.

Thank you
Arun_S

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Oct 2009 02:40

I hereby withdraw from BR and BRF.

This is truly unfortunate. Arun saar, do reconsider. opiniions can and will always differ - that simply can't be helped. but your contribution (in terms of the excellent pieces on the Agni etc) are based on numbers, and that is concrete and valuable.

The back and forth on POK cannot but be in the realm of the hazy or opinion simply because no data will ever be made public. Do reconsider.

CM.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 05 Oct 2009 14:32

nrshah wrote:Forget of tech you have mentioned Philip, even technology that is decades old and will be replaced very shortly will not come without strings attached and not to mention malicious codes........

What is decade old is cheaper and easier to catch up, to begin your R&D base with.

What is latest, is never a part of ToT, unless its from Russia

bulls eye,

For latest TOT, It can be only long term ally - Russia

For all junks, we can think of Unkil SUBJECT TO CLEARANCE FROM US CONGRESS

-Nitin

[/quote]

For TOT India has ONLY one ally. INDIA

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Oct 2009 18:30

Let's look at China's dramatic defence modernisation and indigenisation programme,which we are only now able to see how far they've reached.A decade ago where were they in comparison with India? In the lasted ecade,they've produced several classes of subs,nuclear and conventional,new warship classes-destroyers,frigates and 17,000t LHPDs,two new combat aircraft,transports,AEW aircraft,etc., and a host of other weapon systems,especially missiles across the entire spectrum,barring their own ABM system.They no longer buy from Russia,after reverse engineering Russian systems and using a massive intel. network operating in every country,where every Chinese citizen actually steals some item of tech needed by the country,it is now in a situation where with its anti-carrier ballistic missiles,it can challenge US carrier forces at great ranges from the mainland.It is now no longer possible for a US carrier task force to enter the Taiwan Straits in any crisis without it truly sailing "in harm's way".

India must adopt a new attitude if it wants to be able to defende the country from the Chinese threat which is getting greater by the day.The first ,second and third priority for us is acquiring several SSBNs and the missiles to go with it that can reach china from Antartic waters.Private entities like L&T must be encouraged to build subs and warships too for us to be able to build at home ,in numbers and with speed.Putting all our eggs into the PSU yards and their dismal track record,especially with sub-building is unacceptable in the current context.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Oct 2009 18:56

I like that list of what the Chinese have done.

Now, we can predict with confidence that India will react in about 10 years. The noise should start some time now.

Good. Thanks China.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 05 Oct 2009 19:56

I think India should allow private players in the field of defense and aerospace...I would give a great boost..as the people there will not have CHALTA HAI attitude.

I think that will draft us...ahead of china and also increase self-reliance...!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Oct 2009 23:00

On the flip side there are plenty of Chinese that are complaining about corruption in the PLA, etc.

Who knows.

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 06 Oct 2009 01:46

I am assuming that the higher ups who are running the companies for PLA under disguise are making money for themselves and the Govt. This is to be expected in an authoritarian regime it is not any different from dictatorship or absolute monarchy.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Oct 2009 08:40

I like that list of what the Chinese have done.

Now, we can predict with confidence that India will react in about 10 years. The noise should start some time now.

Good. Thanks China.

Raosaab,

You are assuming a luxury of 10 years - what if India does not have that kind of time?

CM.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Oct 2009 09:02

CM saar,
I think if anything has to happen on the borders with China, it has to be this winter or the next. But not beyond. China's window for mischief at the borders will be gone with India's upgraded infrastructure, mountain divs, army modernization starting to come on line.

Which might be bad in another way. If pak stabilizes, we are in for round 2 of pak nook proliferation by china, or some other dirty trick that the chinese might try to embroil india into.

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 06 Oct 2009 10:34

I think the Chinese will attack between now and 2010 summer.

If it happens:
- World economic recovery is doomed if this happens.
- US and Europe will be in serious trouble.
- More jobs will be lost in China than anywhere else.
- Oil price will slump further because Chinas supplies WILL BE
disrupted.
- More Indians will be heading home from the MEast.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 06 Oct 2009 10:43

- World economic recovery is doomed if this happens.
- US and Europe will be in serious trouble.
- More jobs will be lost in China than anywhere else.
- Oil price will slump further because Chinas supplies WILL BE
disrupted.

...and none of the above may happen, if the GoI wilts and bends to its knees, of which there is a good possibility under MMS, SMK and AKA

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 08 Oct 2009 20:55

bulls eye,

For latest TOT, It can be only long term ally - Russia

For all junks, we can think of Unkil SUBJECT TO CLEARANCE FROM US CONGRESS

-Nitin

For that also India has to obey whatever they say in international relations, even if it means supporting their mad plans to starve the skeltons in 3rd world countries.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 08 Oct 2009 21:04

rajeshks wrote: For that also India has to obey whatever they say in international relations, even if it means supporting their mad plans to starve the skeltons in 3rd world countries.

It may be... But it is for us to decide whether we want to let the skeletons starve or we want our security..

Besides, i don't see, even if we don't go with them and instead go with unkil, those skeletons will stop starving...

-Nitin

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 08 Oct 2009 21:14

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?667400

According to local experts further delay in Nerpa could hit the programme of operationalising the indigenous INS Arihant nuclear submarine, which is based on the same Akula-II blueprints.

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 08 Oct 2009 21:18

nrshah wrote: It may be... But it is for us to decide whether we want to let the skeletons starve or we want our security..

Besides, i don't see, even if we don't go with them and instead go with unkil, those skeletons will stop starving...

-Nitin

May or may not be... but who want to see India in the same position as UK, Germany, South Korea and Japan. They have one thing in common, good economy but is that all?

I remember one story I studied in school. A dog who ran away from a bunglow to forest, all he wanted was freedom.

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 08 Oct 2009 23:12

"MMS, SMK and AKA"

What do the acronyms stand for?

Instead of GoI being on knees how about giving work to Chinese plastic surgeons, cooks and Mandarin teachers immediately. They are desperate for work.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 08 Oct 2009 23:17

Patrick Cusack wrote:"MMS, SMK and AKA"

What do the acronyms stand for?

MMS - ManMohan Singh, India's Prime Minister
SMK - SM Krishna, India's external affairs Minister
AKA - also Known as, i.e. its other name - standard web lingo

oops, AKA- AK Anthony India's defence Minister

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Oct 2009 07:14

Naval technology has a page on the Arihant.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/arihant-class/

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Oct 2009 07:20

Nice to see NT guys using Gagan's impression of Arihant.

But from where did these guys pull out following stuff

The submarine's exterior is uneven and the hull is placed on a mat covered with tiles. The tiles help in absorbing sound waves and provide stealth capability to the submarine. Compared to conventional submarines, the conning tower of Arihant is situated near the bow instead of the centre.

And I don't see any references below NT page.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Oct 2009 07:21

Gagan wrote:Naval technology has a page on the Arihant.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/arihant-class/

with your image to boot ! congrats ji !

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Oct 2009 07:29

Gagan if you don't mind answering this did you post the picture in question on any other fora too ? I am wondering as to how did Naval Technology folks come across that image ? If they took it from BRF then the obvious glares in the write up indicate they lapped up literally everything we guys discussed here.