Indian Military Aviation

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Oct 2009 04:41

Baldev wrote:so now you come to know that kopyo m has better detection range than kopyo21I on indian mig21s

actually kopyo M is upgraded kopyo21I
this proves kopyo M has superior detection range compared to elta2032 on SHAR

no. this doesn't prove that the Elta 2032 on the SHar has lower range than a Kopyo M. the manufacturer claims that for a 600 mm array (for a regular sized fighter nose diameter) it has upto 120 NM detection range. for a 550 mm sized array, it won't drop down to 45 kms. what you're doing is using the MiG-21 Lancer's Elta 2032 to claim that this is the radar on the SHar.

it only proves that the Kopyo M has more detection range than the Kopyo I. the article you linked back to was for the MiG-21 Lancer upgrade which was done more than a decade ago. since then, the Elta 2032's processors would've been upgraded in a way similar to the Kopyo I to the Kopyo M. as it is, the range for detection and tracking for a fighter sized target on the SHar has not been disclosed. what is also not known is whether the nose diameter was increased on the LUSH upgraded SHars or not, in a way similar to the SHar FA2 in RN service. the radar it carried, the Blue Vixen, was a very capable set with a bigger diameter array than the Blue Fox it had earlier.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 02 Oct 2009 09:32

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20091002/main2.htm

The death of an airman in a maoist action is news to me. was this reported last year?

In November last year, Sergeant Mustafa Ali was killed in Chhattisgarh as an unarmed Mi-8 chopper on election duty came under attack. The firing was carried out during a take-off. The pilot somehow managed to fly the chopper away to safety.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 02 Oct 2009 09:41

Kartik wrote:
Baldev wrote:so now you come to know that kopyo m has better detection range than kopyo21I on indian mig21s

actually kopyo M is upgraded kopyo21I
this proves kopyo M has superior detection range compared to elta2032 on SHAR
the manufacturer claims that for a 600 mm array (for a regular sized fighter nose diameter) it has upto 120 NM detection range. for a 550 mm sized array, it won't drop down to 45 kms. what you're doing is using the MiG-21 Lancer's Elta 2032 to claim that this is the radar on the SHar.

ithe article you linked back to was for the MiG-21 Lancer upgrade which was done more than a decade ago. since then, the Elta 2032's processors would've been upgraded in a way similar to the Kopyo I to the Kopyo M. as it is, what is also not known is whether the nose diameter was increased on the LUSH upgraded SHars or not, in a way similar to the SHar FA2 in RN service. the radar it carried, the Blue Vixen, was a very capable set with a bigger diameter array than the Blue Fox it had earlier.

since its just limited upgrade so there is no question of increasing nose cone diameter of SHAR

comapare nose cone of this
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/ph ... r-kbbe.jpg
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/ph ... r-kbbe.jpg
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images ... /13951.jpg
with this
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Harrier31.jpg
this clearly shows that SHAR nose cone isn't bigger than mig21 lancer and mirage F1 nose cone

and then see this
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/S ... arrier.JPG

so the radar antenna can't bigger than 500-520mm dia

GRIFO M3 and M5
The versions configured for the Dassault Mirage III and Mirage V.
Antenna size circular 47 cm diameter for Mirage3 and 51 cm diameter for Mirage5.

GRIFO F1
The version configured for the Dassault Mirage F1.Antenna size circular 51 cm diameter.

GRIFO-S1
The version configurated for Dassault Mirage F1. Antenna size circular 51 cm diameter.

GRIFO-S5
The version configurated for Dassault Mirage V. Antenna size circular 51 cm diameter.

GRIFO-S7
The version selected for the JF-17 aircraft. Antenna size circular 60 cm diameter.

GRIFO-2000/16
The version configured for a pin-to-pin replacement of the APG-66 radar on the F-16 fighter.
Antenna size elliptical 74x48cm

Key Parameters for grifo S radar
Track while scan 10 targets tracked, 8 displayed
SAR resolution < 1m
Track formation range > 40 NM
look-up detection range > 50 NM

here 50NM or 90km range corresponds to GRIFO-2000/16 so this range should be 55km for
grifo S5/S1 because grifo S5/S1 radar antenna is quite smaller than that of GRIFO-2000/16

closest relative to elta2032 is grifo radar family
so the upgraded elta2032 radar for SHAR will have detection range close to that of grifo S5/S1

how can a 600mm dia radar has 120NM search range

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Oct 2009 09:49

The death of an airman in a maoist action is news to me. was this reported last year?

Jagan sir, it was reported in BR and there was a mini-discussion on this topic also

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 02 Oct 2009 09:52

yeah somehow missed it. Just found out that he was awarded the Shaurya Chakra posthumously this year on Aug 15. The Pilot and Co-Pilot also were awarded the same

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 02 Oct 2009 20:47

IAF seeks permission to return fire in self defense

My question is why do they need permission to protect themselves??? When a common man can retaliate with deadly force in self defense, why not the air force of the nation???

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Oct 2009 21:00

Bala Vignesh wrote:IAF seeks permission to return fire in self defense

My question is why do they need permission to protect themselves??? When a common man can retaliate with deadly force in self defense, why not the air force of the nation???

The armed forces go by the rules. The rules say they don't fire without orders.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 02 Oct 2009 21:36

shiv wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:IAF seeks permission to return fire in self defense

My question is why do they need permission to protect themselves??? When a common man can retaliate with deadly force in self defense, why not the air force of the nation???
The armed forces go by the rules. The rules say they don't fire without orders.

It kinda reminds me of a movie dialogue by ajay devgan " Is desh mein kuton ko marni ki permission nahi hai "... Forgot the movie's name though...

they seem to be too disciplined for their own good... But that's where they show their professionalism i guess...

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 02 Oct 2009 23:07

Bala Vignesh wrote:
It kinda reminds me of a movie dialogue by ajay devgan " Is desh mein kuton ko marni ki permission nahi hai "... Forgot the movie's name though...

they seem to be too disciplined for their own good... But that's where they show their professionalism i guess...

Zameen

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Oct 2009 00:44

Baldev wrote:since its just limited upgrade so there is no question of increasing nose cone diameter of SHAR

How do you know this ? there isn't a single picture of the upgraded SHars available anywhere. the only pic I've seen is a LUSH patch and it seemed to show a different nose radome than the regular IN SHar patch does. thats a pretty spurious reference, I know, but its better than nothing.

so the radar antenna can't bigger than 500-520mm dia

how can a 600mm dia radar has 120NM search range

you yourself posted the Elta 2032 brochure. go back and read it. it claims that for a regular fighter sized array, the detection range is 120 NM for a fighter sized target (3 M^2 RCS or 5 M^2 RCS, it doesn't state). as to how can a 600 mm dia. radar have such a range, even the APG-68(V)3 has a range quite similar to that with an array of the same size.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 03 Oct 2009 01:22

An article on fighter pilots of IAF ...

Where eagles dare

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 03 Oct 2009 08:37

Kartik wrote:you yourself posted the Elta 2032 brochure. go back and read it. it claims that for a regular fighter sized array, the detection range is 120 NM for a fighter sized target (3 M^2 RCS or 5 M^2 RCS, it doesn't state). as to how can a 600 mm dia. radar have such a range, even the APG-68(V)3 has a range quite similar to that with an array of the same size.

and the elta2032 brochure shows detection range upto 80NM for air to air targets not 120NM
in the same elta2032 brochure there is no mention about 600mm dia radar or its range

nash · Post by **nash** » 03 Oct 2009 09:08

i think 120NM for sea surface

http://www.iai.co.il/21248-26591-en/Bus ... Radar.aspx

Performance
Air-to-Air detection and tracking range up to 80 NM
Air-to-Ground mapping, High Resolution Mapping and surface target detection up to 80 NM.
Air-to-Sea detection, tracking and classification up to 160 NM .

Physical Characteristics
Weight: 72-100 Kg depending on antenna size.
Power: 2-3 KVA. depending on Transmitter configuration.
Antenna Size: adapted to aircraft nose limitations.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 03 Oct 2009 11:37

India to purchase new trainers
Sorry if already posted...

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 03 Oct 2009 23:35

LCA to Receive HF Designation

Wonder why didn't we designate it earlier on???

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 04 Oct 2009 17:10

India to place all MiG 29s along Pak border

To step up its air defence capabilities, Indian Air Force (IAF) has decided to station all its MiG 29 squadrons at Adampur that is the second largest air force base in the country.

The Adampur Air Force station, which is also known as home of MiG 29s, already has two frontline fighter squadrons and will see another squadron moving from Jamnagar in Gujarat soon.

"We consider ourselves to be a strategic air power establishment of the IAF in the western sector, ever ready for operations. We are fully geared up to operate in any given time frame like any other Air Force stations of the country," said Air Commodore HS Arora, Air Officer Commanding of the Adampur air base.

Whats the logic behind this, gurus?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Oct 2009 17:42

First, the headline is wrong and as usual sensationalist in nature. What were the Mig-29s doing in Jamnagar? Playing dandia?While moving all the Squadrons to Adampur may make sense wrt the logistic issues, the Gujrat and Saurashtra coastline is too important to be left only to the Mig-21s for AD which is a PD fighter. The sweep radius of the Mig-29 boys is far higher as compared to the venerable Mig-21s. And they are there to escort the Jaguar IM Sqn. also. Unless ofcourse, some "BIG BOYS" are coming to town to play or the new Mig-29Ks will be deployed in strength in the area (a jingo and his wet dreams...

)

Another important point, the Mig-29s do not deploy as a Sqn. as a whole in any given location during conflicts/threat scenarios. Flights are deployed all along the border which work in tandem with the Bison guys. So the Gujrat and Saurashtra may see them coming back in case of build-up/threat scenario. But not a desirable scenario IMHO.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 04 Oct 2009 18:17

rohitvats wrote: What were the Mig-29s doing in Jamnagar? Playing dandia?

Yes, now that Navratri's over. Guess now they'll be practising Bhangra for Baisakhi! All three squadrons together! Great na? While we leave a big black gaping hole in the Gujarat region.

But you kind of resonate my apprehensions here

rohitvats wrote:the Gujrat and Saurashtra coastline is too important to be left only to the Mig-21s for AD which is a PD fighter. The sweep radius of the Mig-29 boys is far higher as compared to the venerable Mig-21s.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 19:00

jamnagar always had a mig-29 sqdn. No 28 'first supersonics' IIRC.

here's proof :

even the jag IMs of No 6 have moved to jamnagar sometime back.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Oct 2009 19:04

well the most useful place on land for Mig29K is Jamnagar and the general area north of mumbai - bristling with scores of vital and heavy industries and vital sea routes.

PAF in times of crises tends to concentrate 75% on north punjab and POK region, leaving a strong force to guard karachi and the rest pretty naked.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 04 Oct 2009 19:08

Rahul M wrote:jamnagar always had a mig-29 sqdn. No 28 'first supersonics' IIRC.

here's proof :

even the jag IMs of No 6 have moved to jamnagar sometime back.

Not disputing the fact that 28 is at Jamnagar. But this photo goes a long time back - when 28 was in Pune.

The undisputable proof about 28 being at Jamnagar was that Mission Udaan episode that rakall (or someone) posted here that showed them at Jamnagar. More recently Simon Watson took some pics of them - two of which appear here
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... /Jamnagar/

I recall the move happened when the first Sukhoi-30MKIs were inducted

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 19:13

do you mean the mki or the plain su-30 ?

for I remember a pic of a Mig-29s flying in to land at jamnagar during kargil. of course this could have been a wartime deployment only.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 04 Oct 2009 19:16

I think this was at the time of the MKI not the plain K. But I am not sure

When the plain K was inducted, they had the MiG-29s in the ceremonial pics. This one IIRC was from an AFD brochure from that time.

When the MKI was inducted, all MiG-29s were moved out. (With the exception one wfu airframe which i believe belongs to the TETTRA - probably shipped out to warbird duties by now)

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 19:23

jag, that pic over bombay high is from early 90's, am I correct ?
did lohegaon have only the 28 back then or any of the other two also ?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 04 Oct 2009 20:03

Rahul M wrote:jag, that pic over bombay high is from early 90's, am I correct ?
did lohegaon have only the 28 back then or any of the other two also ?

They had both 28 and 47. both having been raised there in Dec 87. 47 shifted to Adampur in 1997. I guess this happened because the Ks were inducted. And the MKIs came in, quite likely 28 moved out at that time.

Lohegaon always had 3 Sqns since the MiGs were there. So my guess is this is the sequence

6,28,47
6,28,24 (47 moves to Adampur)
6,24,20 (28 moves to Jamnagar)
6,20,30 (24 moves to Barielly)

finally 6 moves out to Jamnagar. replaced by yet another MKI unit.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 04 Oct 2009 20:23

So right now we have all the 3 MiG29 squadrons HQed at Adampur and they are spread out in flights across the western frontier??? supplemented with MiG21 bisons and Bis??? Are we prepping for some major action or something???

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Oct 2009 20:47

Jagan Garu, you beat me to the explanation wrt the Mig-29 pic. As for the Lohegaon and Mig-29 Sqns, IIRC the entire induction, like SU-30MKI, took place at Pune. Tridents (221?) were the 1st to move out to Adampur while the other two stayed put. And then even they moved out once Pune became hub of SU-30MKI induction. No.6 were the last to move out to Jamnagar. As for the Mission Udan, it also showed interview of CO of 28 Sqn:Wing Commander Nautiyal. And IIRC, he was also involved in a ejection from a 2-seat trainer.

Bala Vignesh wrote:So right now we have all the 3 MiG29 squadrons HQed at Adampur and they are spread out in flights across the western frontier??? supplemented with MiG21 bisons and Bis??? Are we prepping for some major action or something???

The explanation wrt the deployment was during crisis situations. I very clearly remember reading something to the effect that 4 Bisons were working in tandem with a 1 Mig-29 and they achieved some pretty results.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 04 Oct 2009 21:16

rohitvats wrote:Jagan Garu, you beat me to the explanation wrt the Mig-29 pic. As for the Lohegaon and Mig-29 Sqns, IIRC the entire induction, like SU-30MKI, took place at Pune. Tridents (221?) were the 1st to move out to Adampur while the other two stayed put. And then even they moved out once Pune became hub of SU-30MKI induction. No.6 were the last to move out to Jamnagar. As for the Mission Udan, it also showed interview of CO of 28 Sqn:Wing Commander Nautiyal. And IIRC, he was also involved in a ejection from a 2-seat trainer.

Bala Vignesh wrote:So right now we have all the 3 MiG29 squadrons HQed at Adampur and they are spread out in flights across the western frontier??? supplemented with MiG21 bisons and Bis??? Are we prepping for some major action or something???
The explanation wrt the deployment was during crisis situations. I very clearly remember reading something to the effect that 4 Bisons were working in tandem with a 1 Mig-29 and they achieved some pretty results.

Rohit sir, could you please elaborate on the nature of the experiment??? If you don't mind...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Oct 2009 22:23

Rohit sir, could you please elaborate on the nature of the experiment??? If you don't mind...

Bala, don't sir me....my knowledge is quite limited, technically more so, in matters military aviation...what I am refering to was use of Mig-29 as a sort of mothership and to be used to guide a set of Mig-21s...something that our SU-30MKI does par excellence..courtsey its radar....

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 04 Oct 2009 22:27

Edited

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 04 Oct 2009 22:39

Ok... so it acts like a high flying C2 center??? Nice...

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 05 Oct 2009 02:58

Talking of C2. It looks like the second IAF Phalcon is nearing delivery. Here it is at Ben Gurion, late last month, undergoing final test and Integration flights.

http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt58 ... instay.jpg

-thanks.

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 05 Oct 2009 03:09

So the Gujrat and Saurashtra

Just to clear something. It is spell Gujarat & Saurastra. I know lot of pakis spell gujrat

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 05 Oct 2009 06:33

Nothing new

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/oct/ ... an-end.htm

The Indian Air Force's plans to induct upgraded MiG-29 by March next year has been hit due to delay at the Russian end with the first lot of six aircraft likely to come in only by early 2011.

"Originally, the upgraded MiG-29s were to join the IAF squadrons at Adampur airbase in Punjab [ Images ] by March 2010. But now, there will be a delay of another eight to 10 months and hence, we expect it only in early 2011," a senior IAF officer said on Sunday. Under the US $ 950-million contract signed in March 2008 for upgrading 60-odd MiG-29s operated by IAF's three squadrons, the IAF planned to fit Series-3 version of RD-33 engine to increase its thrust from 8.3 ton to over 9 ton, apart from improved avionics, modern weapon systems and Beyond Visual Range missiles.

"The idea is to upgrade the MiG-29 from an aerial interceptor, air superiority aircraft to a multi-role fighter-bomber aircraft capable of striking mobile and stationary targets on the ground and at sea with high-precision weapons in all-weather conditions beyond visual range," the officer said. While the first six aircraft would be upgraded by the original equipment manufacturer, the remaining aircraft would be attended to at the IAF's Nashik-based 11 Base Repair Depot with kits supplied by RAC-MIG. The upgrading is happening on the basis of the new requirements for the MiG-29s that IAF had indicated to the
OEM, based on an assessment it had made for the future role of the fighter aircraft.

"The upgrade will increase the service life of MiG-29 from the existing 25 years to 40 years. The upgrade of all the aircraft was originally envisaged within three years. But now, it could take another year or more to complete," he added. This will include replacing existing on-board radars with the advanced multi-functional Zhuk-ME radar and a new weapon control system. The package is also expected to include state-of-the-art avionics and cockpit ergonomics, along with an increase in fuel capacity.

The twin-engine MiG-29s will carry sophisticated air-to-air and high-accuracy air-to-ground missiles such as R-27, R-60Mk and R-73, and 'smart aerial' bombs. The upgrade programme ran into rough weather after a Russian Air Force MiG-29 crashed in December last forcing the IAF to ground all its aircraft to carry out extensive checks.

With Russia [ Images ] identifying structural faults in the aircraft's tail fins, the IAF went about checking the tail fins of the MiG-29s in its squadrons."Half-a-dozen of the MiG-29s in our fleet were found with faults in the tail fin and these had to be replaced. On
the MiG-29s from the same batch of aircraft as the Russians, we did further checks to rectify structural faults completely," an IAF engineer said.

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Oct 2009 07:40

Bala Vignesh wrote:So right now we have all the 3 MiG29 squadrons HQed at Adampur and they are spread out in flights across the western frontier??? supplemented with MiG21 bisons and Bis??? Are we prepping for some major action or something???

IAF typically tends to have 2 dedicated bases (one with 2 squadrons and the other with one squadrons) for aircraft types with at least 3 squadrons such as the MiG-29s and Su-30MKIs. For example, MiG-29 has one primary airbase (Wing) at Adampur and a secondary airbase at Jamnagar. Su-30MKIs are also planned to be arranged similarly across the 4 Air Commands - 2 airbases (with 3 sqdns) per WAC, SWAC, CAC, and EAC.

Also, IAF tends to move squadron flights around various bases apart from its main dedicated airbases for exercises, familarity, security etc.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 05 Oct 2009 08:29

Russians/Mig would take 10 years to complete upgrades and would charge at least 150% of the agreed upon cost. JMO

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Oct 2009 09:13

Well most defence deals experience some sort of delays it seems, hardly unique to the russians. Any way that article is a bit of a mixed bag imho:
States that they want to upgrade the baaz with engines providing over 9 tons thrust and point the series 3 as possible candidates. Err, sorry but RD-33 ser 3 can at most pump out 8.7 emergency thrust. Max AB thrust = 8.3 tons. So what engine does provide thrust of 9+ tons? RD-33MK. So is the IAF about to get MKs as well for its upgrade?

Doubtful since the deal signed was for the series 3. Of course if they go with MKs, it'll cost more and probly take a little longer since I don't think an MK was ever fitted onto an SMT upgraded airframe, only on M/K/35 iirc. I am sure jingos will yell blue murder about cost escalations and then too.

CM.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 05 Oct 2009 09:39

I can visually confirm Mig-29 in Jamnagar

.

Regards,
Khambat Dagha

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 05 Oct 2009 09:56

I presume its some kind of pre-upgradation 'taking stock' exercise that made them shift the Mig 29s to Adampur (temporary onlee)

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Oct 2009 13:58

krishnan wrote:Nothing new

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/oct/ ... an-end.htm

..... .capable of striking mobile and stationary targets on the ground and at sea .......

At Sea? Dont recall any AShMs being integrated with MiG-29