Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 09 Oct 2009 08:43

rajeshks wrote: Other differences are longer range for Nag(7-8 for air version) and Javelin has direct attack mode to target buildings and low-flying helicopters.

Does Nag communicate back?

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 09 Oct 2009 10:16

Dude's what was the issue? Why did Arun_S leave?

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 09 Oct 2009 11:55

Willy wrote:Dude's what was the issue? Why did Arun_S leave?

Exactly, even I am wondering. I re go thru all major thread to see if i missed out something, but nothing...

-Nitin

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 09 Oct 2009 12:03

darshan wrote: Does Nag communicate back?

No, Nag doesn't.....It's in fire & forget category.....

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 09 Oct 2009 12:05

darshan wrote:
rajeshks wrote: Other differences are longer range for Nag(7-8 for air version) and Javelin has direct attack mode to target buildings and low-flying helicopters.
Does Nag communicate back?

NAG missile is equipped with imaging infrared seeker (IIR), lock-on-before launch (LOBL) capability with the seeker tracking the target prior its launch. So no datalink between the missile and launcher. But I am not sure about the millimeter wave seeker Nag under development.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 09 Oct 2009 12:38

News from Dinamalar Tamil daily. http://www.dinamalar.com/fpnnewsdetail.asp?News_id=5231)MISSILE TEST IN NOVEMBER - TAMIL NEWS

We are going to test Upgraded versions of PRITHVI (150 KM) , AGNI II (2300 KM) , BRAMOS (290 KM) , K 15
(700 KM RANGE) IN END nOVEMBER. THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO THE DISPLAY OF CHINESE MILITARY MIGHT during their 60th Republic day.

(I was on long holidays @ India and now I am back.)

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 09 Oct 2009 14:35

Prabu wrote: (I was on long holidays @ India and now I am back.)

Thats why you are not aware of the happenings here. We discussed this few days back.. Anyway welcome back.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 09 Oct 2009 18:45

Arun_S was forced out by some eminent BRites including under threat of being sued for insulting RCji.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Oct 2009 19:06

Raj Malhotra wrote:Arun_S was forced out by some eminent BRites including under threat of being sued for insulting RCji.

that is incorrect. please do not add fuel to the fire in what is already a dicey situation.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 09 Oct 2009 21:23

nrshah wrote:
Willy wrote:Dude's what was the issue? Why did Arun_S leave?
Exactly, even I am wondering. I re go thru all major thread to see if i missed out something, but nothing...

-Nitin

If we want to learn the whole saga as to why Arun_S left, go throught the Pokhran II not fully successful: thread. I am also bit confused as to how this happened. There were lots of disagreements, accusations etc etc.

Edited and posted the same in Feedback thread*****************************************

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Oct 2009 22:59

soham, if you have any inputs on the forum I suggest you delete the above and post in the appropriate place i.e forum feedback thread. I'll answer you there.

let's keep this thread restricted to the topic of its title i.e missiles.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 10 Oct 2009 00:18

edited.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 10 Oct 2009 08:11

rajeshks wrote: NAG missile is equipped with imaging infrared seeker (IIR), lock-on-before launch (LOBL) capability with the seeker tracking the target prior its launch. So no datalink between the missile and launcher. But I am not sure about the millimeter wave seeker Nag under development.

Nag would be an interesting missile if it could communicate.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 10 Oct 2009 23:54

India, Russia to develop hypersonic BrahMos-II cruise missile

India, Russia to develop new hypersonic cruise missile

arun · Post by **arun** » 11 Oct 2009 17:06

X Posted.

Submarine launched version of Brahmos to be tested in Mid December:

India Likely to Test-Fire BrahMos Supersonic Missile in Dec

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 11 Oct 2009 23:23

BrahMos to be deployed in Ladakh

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 11 Oct 2009 23:35

Great, of course it means that GOI has chosen to publicise it now (perhaps the junta can take it easy on MMS, now-I don't think he is a fool).

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 11 Oct 2009 23:48

sanjaykumar wrote:Great, of course it means that GOI has chosen to publicise it now (perhaps the junta can take it easy on MMS, now-I don't think he is a fool).

What a compliment!

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 12 Oct 2009 00:43

Road mobility gives Agni-5 global reach: Ajai Shukla
xtracts

The Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL) in Hyderabad, which develops India’s strategic (long-range, nuclear-tipped) missiles, has dramatically increased the options for its forthcoming Agni-5 missile by making it highly road-mobile, or easily transportable by road.
That enables the Agni-5 to reach targets far beyond its stated 5,000-km range by quickly moving closer to the target. In a hypothetical war against, say, Sweden, an Agni-5 launcher, stationed near Bangalore, would be unable to strike Stockholm, 7,000 km away. But moving by road to Amritsar would bring Stockholm within range.
Similarly, moving the Agni-5 to northeast India would bring even Harbin, China’s northernmost city, within striking range.

The Agni-5 will be the first canisterised, road-mobile missile in India’s arsenal, similar to the Dongfeng-31A that created ripples during China’s National Day Military Parade in Beijing on October 1.
In many other respects, the Agni-5, which is scheduled to make its first flight in early-2011, carries forward the Agni-3 pedigree. With composites used extensively to reduce weight, and a third stage added on (the Agni-3 was a two-stage missile), the Agni-5 can fly 1,500 km further than the 3,500-km Agni-3.

“The Agni-5 is specially tailored for road-mobility,” explains Avinash Chander, Director, ASL. “With the canister having been successfully developed, all India’s future land-based strategic missiles will be canisterised as well”.

Canister technology was first developed in India for the Brahmos cruise missile. But it was the K-15 underwater-launched missile, developed here in Hyderabad for India’s nuclear-powered submarine, INS Arihant, which fully overcame the technological hurdles in canisterising ballistic missiles.

Another major technological breakthrough that will beef up the Agni-5 is ASL’s success in developing and testing MIRVs (multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles). An MIRV, atop an Agni-5 missile, comprises three to 10 separate nuclear warheads. Each warhead can be assigned to a separate target, separated by hundreds of kilometres; alternatively, two or more warheads can be assigned to one target.

“We have made major progress on the MIRVs in the last two years,” is all that Avinash Chander is willing to say on the subject.

Nevertheless, extensive testing still lies ahead for this highly complex technology. MIRVs will be deployed on the Agni-5 only after another 4-5 years.

Strategic planners consider MIRVs essential, given India’s declared “no first use” nuclear policy. Even after an enemy has hit India with a full-fledged nuclear strike, destroying or incapacitating much of the strategic arsenal, a handful of surviving Indian missiles must be capable of retaliating with massive and unacceptable damage. Multiple warheads on a handful of Agni-5 missiles would constitute such a capability.

MIRVs also enable a single missile to overwhelm the enemy’s missile defences. Tracking and shooting down multiple warheads are far more difficult than intercepting a single warhead.

Providing each warhead with the capability to manoeuvre, and dodge enemy interceptor missiles, increases survivability further. The MIRV warheads are also being given electronic packages for jamming enemy radars.

disha · Post by **disha** » 12 Oct 2009 01:17

Highlighting things which I understand now (and assuming all of it is true, which is very likely) ...

nithish wrote:Road mobility gives Agni-5 global reach: Ajai Shukla

...Similarly, moving the Agni-5 to northeast India would bring even Harbin, China’s northernmost city, within striking range...

.

Well written. First point out that it can reach to Stockholm from Amritsar and then slide in Harbin.

... Agni-5 ... similar to the Dongfeng-31A

So now we know what class Agni 5 really is. It is an IRBM comparable to DF-31A, which is an ICBM.

... beef up the Agni-5 is ASL’s success in developing and testing MIRVs (multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles). An MIRV, atop an Agni-5 missile, comprises three to 10 separate nuclear warheads.

That sentence takes the cake. Since it proves Agni-5+MIRV > DF-31A. DF-31A is a single warhead missile carrying 1 MT. Agni 5 carrying 10 100KT bums is better than DF-31A carrying 1 MT.

Nevertheless, extensive testing still lies ahead for this highly complex technology. MIRVs will be deployed on the Agni-5 only after another 4-5 years.

.

Of course, that means MIRV+Agni V will be sometime in 2015/2016.

Now here are the details on DF-31A ...

1. Image of DF-31A Third Stage

http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/mi ... 31_02large

(Notice the AeroSpike Disc on the RV)

2. Image of DF-31A Launch

http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/mi ... 31_03large

3. Some snippets on DF-31A from sinodefense. http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/missile/df31.asp

This limitation, coupled with various design flaws and technical issues, led to the decision to develop an improved variant DongFeng 31A, which caused further delay in the operational deployment of the missile. A flight test of the DongFeng 31A was carried out on 4 September 2006, and the test was said to be fully successful.

The limitations were on DF-31, which was *not* road mobile and had a very poor CEP. Also from the above site:

It was estimated that the DongFeng 31A had a payload of about 700kg (other source suggested between 1,050 and 1,750kg), which can be equipped with a single 1,000kT yield nuclear warhead. The maximum range of the missile is 10,700~11,200km. The missile uses an inertial guidance system that is equipped with a stellar update system, and is expected to have an accuracy of at least 300m CEP.

Indicates that the DF-31A CEP target is at least 300 metres. It talks about stellar update system, but China has not demonstrated any type of guidance based on Stellar System.

Now going back to Ajai Shukla's article in Business Standard:

While MIRV technology is similar to launching multiple satellites through a space rocket, a missile requires far greater accuracy. A satellite would be considered in correct orbit even it is a kilometre higher or lower than planned.

But each warhead in an MIRV must impact within 40 metres of its target. With such high accuracies, even small nuclear warheads are sufficient for the job.

I had earlier posted in deterance thread that MIRV is no different from launching multiple satellites. The above quote supports that view point, with an additional point that MIRV requirements are tighter. Also in slight of words, the article introduces a requirement for 40 metres of CEP. Why 40 Metres? Why not 30 Metres or why not 50 Metres or 100 Metres? In my opinion, that is the results on which our designers/scientists are confident to achieve based on injecting the multiple satellites in required orbit.

Jai Ho!

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 12 Oct 2009 02:50

The warhead of the DF-31A sort of resembles that of the Agni I.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Oct 2009 07:24

^^^
You mean the Re-entry vehicle and the heat sheild.

I have always wondered, why does the Agni-1 / 2 have such a long heat shield. Is it possible that there are MIRV-ed tandem warheads in that long heat shield?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Oct 2009 07:39

Gagan,

Do you know if India has MIRV? As far as I know that technology has yet to be developed. India has RV, not MIRV - from what I know.

added l8r:

From the Ajai Shukla article:

Another major technological breakthrough that will beef up the Agni-5 is ASL’s success in developing and testing MIRVs (multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles). An MIRV, atop an Agni-5 missile, comprises three to 10 separate nuclear warheads.

“We have made major progress on the MIRVs in the last two years,” is all that Avinash Chander is willing to say on the subject.

Nevertheless, extensive testing still lies ahead for this highly complex technology. MIRVs will be deployed on the Agni-5 only after another 4-5 years.

While MIRV technology is similar to launching multiple satellites through a space rocket, a missile requires far greater accuracy. A satellite would be considered in correct orbit even it is a kilometre higher or lower than planned.

But each warhead in an MIRV must impact within 40 metres of its target. With such high accuracies, even small nuclear warheads are sufficient for the job.

Strategic planners consider MIRVs essential, given India’s declared “no first use” nuclear policy. Even after an enemy has hit India with a full-fledged nuclear strike, destroying or incapacitating much of the strategic arsenal, a handful of surviving Indian missiles must be capable of retaliating with massive and unacceptable damage. Multiple warheads on a handful of Agni-5 missiles would constitute such a capability.

MIRVs also enable a single missile to overwhelm the enemy’s missile defences. Tracking and shooting down multiple warheads are far more difficult than intercepting a single warhead.

Providing each warhead with the capability to manoeuvre, and dodge enemy interceptor missiles, increases survivability further. The MIRV warheads are also being given electronic packages for jamming enemy radars.

Missed disha's post too.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Oct 2009 07:53

AFAIK,
there is no statement anywhere suggesting that India has MIRV-ed missiles.
Although there are the prithvi and Agni conventional bomblet warheads. There was also talk of MIRV-ed multiple warheads for the K-15/Sagarika (What ever that means. MIRVs on a missile that is 74 cm dia - Oh yeah

- DDM at its best)

The above is just a speculation. The chinese M-9 / 11 RV has a tandem seperating warhead, where the actual warhead is 20% of the RV size, the RV is supposed to trail the warhead all along the reentry, a few meters away. It was assumed that the larger RV behind the warhead will make for a more suitable target in case of interception, allowing the warhead to hit the target.

The length of the Agni RV is unusually long I think. Surely there must be electronic jamming equipment in there, possibly decoys . But still its size intrigues me.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Oct 2009 08:15

Gagan wrote:^^^
I have always wondered, why does the Agni-1 / 2 have such a long heat shield. Is it possible that there are MIRV-ed tandem warheads in that long heat shield?

Agni-1/2/3 RV has self contained liquid fuel , engine , guidance plus warhead , making it a Active ,Manouverable RV giving it longer range and unpredictable trajectory( compared to pure ballistic passive RV ) making ABM defence complex.

Hence the long heat shield and long RV

Added Later: Looking at Chinese RV , it looks like a all carbon composite , warhed , guidance powered RV similar to Agni-2/3 , the RV like Agni-3 RV has high beta RV design using carbon-carbon nose tip indicating its designed for high speed reentry and long range.

disha · Post by **disha** » 12 Oct 2009 08:46

Gagan wrote:AFAIK,
there is no statement anywhere suggesting that India has MIRV-ed missiles.

India does *not* have MIRV-ed missiles. Not yet. From Ajai's interview with Mr. Avinash Chander (ASL), it appears that MIRV capability will be demonstrated circa 2015/2016. That is if all ducks are lined in row and everything quacks on cue, then Agni V will be demonstrated in 2011 and 4/5 years after that MIRV. Note that "major progress" has been made. But what kind of progress is under wraps. From what is publicly demonstrated (and available), It is possible to "simulate" MIRV but we are not yet at a stage to demonstrate MIRV. This would mean that breakthrough has been made in hosts of technologies (eg. Star Sensor based guidance, single bus for multiple payloads, inertial guidance system, injection algorithms etc), though its integration is going to be a challenge.

The above is just a speculation. The chinese M-9 / 11 RV has a tandem seperating warhead, where the actual warhead is 20% of the RV size, the RV is supposed to trail the warhead all along the reentry, a few meters away. It was assumed that the larger RV behind the warhead will make for a more suitable target in case of interception, allowing the warhead to hit the target.

The length of the Agni RV is unusually long I think. Surely there must be electronic jamming equipment in there, possibly decoys . But still its size intrigues me.

It is a maneuverable warhead and hence it is long. If you look at some of A-III launch photos, there is a ring of red nitrous oxide gas around the RV base indicating presence of a liquid engine.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Oct 2009 08:52

disha wrote:If you look at some of A-III launch photos, there is a ring of red nitrous oxide gas around the RV base indicating presence of a liquid engine.

The HAM.

disha · Post by **disha** » 12 Oct 2009 08:56

Gagan wrote:
disha wrote:If you look at some of A-III launch photos, there is a ring of red nitrous oxide gas around the RV base indicating presence of a liquid engine.
The HAM.

Yes, forgot about the name

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 12 Oct 2009 09:42

India may test nuclear capable missile today

Agni - V

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 12 Oct 2009 11:17

Breaking News: Prithvi-II successfully test fired:DRDO

BALASORE: India's highly sophisticated and nuclear capable short-range ballistic missile (SRBM) Prithvi-2 was successfully test fired on Monday from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur near Balasore in Orissa.

Sources in Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) had earlier said that the test would be part of the user's trial.

The test was conducted by a special contingent raised by the Indian army.

Prithvi-2 missile is single stage liquid propelled and is equipped with inertial navigation system. The missile is about nine meters in length and one meter in diameter. The missile can carry conventional or nuclear warheads.

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 12 Oct 2009 11:35

nithish wrote:Road mobility gives Agni-5 global reach: Ajai Shukla
xtracts

The Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL) in Hyderabad, which develops India’s strategic (long-range, nuclear-tipped) missiles, has dramatically increased the options for its forthcoming Agni-5 missile by making it highly road-mobile, or easily transportable by road.
That enables the Agni-5 to reach targets far beyond its stated 5,000-km range by quickly moving closer to the target. In a hypothetical war against, say, Sweden, an Agni-5 launcher, stationed near Bangalore, would be unable to strike Stockholm, 7,000 km away. But moving by road to Amritsar would bring Stockholm within range.
Similarly, moving the Agni-5 to northeast India would bring even Harbin, China’s northernmost city, within striking range.

Is that a joke by Mr. Shukla? In the event of a war with China, how are we really going to move the missile by road from Bangalore to the NE?

2000 km by road!

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 12 Oct 2009 11:41

Mayuresh wrote: Is that a joke by Mr. Shukla? In the event of a war with China, how are we really going to move the missile by road from Bangalore to the NE?

2000 km by road!

But why do you think the missile will be based in "Bangalore only"? Its just an example.. dont read it too 'literally'

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Oct 2009 11:43

he is trying to point out the advantages of a road/rail mobile missile as compared to a fixed silo based one to the generally clueless Indian reader. no need to shoot him for that.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 12 Oct 2009 11:43

Let us take a step back here and analyze when we are going to start inducting A-IIIs into the armed forces, how many and how fast are we planning to make and deploy them.

Also If they have perfected the MIRV, mobility and canister technology, why not apply it on A3 and A3SL and quick do 2-3 tests of each? A strong deterrence against the Chinese is as much a function of time as capability.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 12 Oct 2009 12:13

Two Prithvi-II missiles testfired within a gap of five minutes

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 12 Oct 2009 12:14

rakall wrote:
Mayuresh wrote: Is that a joke by Mr. Shukla? In the event of a war with China, how are we really going to move the missile by road from Bangalore to the NE?

2000 km by road!

But why do you think the missile will be based in "Bangalore only"? Its just an example.. dont read it too 'literally'

Moving 200km by road will take days.

A better idea would be to reduce the size of warhead to increase the range.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 12 Oct 2009 12:19

How many Prithvis we test actually? We are testing these from decades I believe.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Oct 2009 12:21

why do people think he is talking of literally 'moving' the missile to fire it ?
even after rakall explained it ?

How many Prithvis we test actually? We are testing these from decades I believe.

there's more to it than meets the eye.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 12 Oct 2009 12:23

Rahul M, can you explain what you mean by there's more to it. Thanks.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 12 Oct 2009 13:29

Two prithvi's were test fired with 5 mins gap