MRCA News and Discussion

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 16 Oct 2009 18:44

41 million f**cking dollars to upgrade a 25 year old plane that will still be inferior to an LCA that costs at most 3/4 of the upgrade price per plane. Are you kidding me? Anyone approving that is either an imbecile or adding to their Swiss bank acccount.

When will the GOI finally realizes the pathetic resources given to defense R&D in India is penny wise and pound foolish. How long can this raping go on? I was wavering between the Rafale and Mig-35. There is now clearly only one choice IMHO: MIG-35.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 16 Oct 2009 21:36

Baldev wrote: and what is gripen

in gripen NG/IN there are

SYSTEMS FROM US
engine,wheel brake and controls,audio management system,air data computer

SYSTEMS FROM UK
control stick,throttle lever,some parts of airframe,refuelling probe,ejection seat,enviromental systems,landing gear,hydraulic system

SYSTEMS FROM FRANCE
fuel systems

SYSTEM FROM ITALY
aesa radar

gun is from germany

SYSTEMS FROM SWEDEN
rodome,parts of airframe and landing gear,MFD,flight control systems,system computer

same is also true for typhoon

YOU ARE DEAD RIGHT ,WAISE I WAS JUST comparing the price since the numbers are large

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Oct 2009 22:19

If that french approach is true (better AS be right about his article), then french would establish their genere now.. triggering like catalyst change as in a new-clear-mutation for IAF doctrine.

EADS onlys moves up in the list should that be the case. EJ200s for LCA emboldens their offer for future taking board membership in EADS corp, on equal partnership.

If Rafale costs $x millions, I am sure EADS will match that penny for penny, feature for feature, function by function.

and finally mig35 kills everyone including the cost.

Lets re-rank them up now:-
EADS
Rafale
Mig35
SH
Gripen
F16

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 16 Oct 2009 22:37

tejas wrote:41 million f**cking dollars to upgrade a 25 year old plane that will still be inferior to an LCA that costs at most 3/4 of the upgrade price per plane. Are you kidding me? Anyone approving that is either an imbecile or adding to their Swiss bank acccount.

When will the GOI finally realizes the pathetic resources given to defense R&D in India is penny wise and pound foolish. How long can this raping go on? I was wavering between the Rafale and Mig-35. There is now clearly only one choice IMHO: MIG-35.

with that money one can buy one and half LCA's for each of the upgraded Mirages.

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Oct 2009 22:56

saptarishi wrote:HERE IS THE FULL STORY
IAF's $11-bn order may become larger
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi October 16, 2009, 0:36 IST

India may go beyond the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft.

...
The reason is a breakdown in India’s long negotiations with Dassault Aviation, the French aircraft manufacturer, for upgrading 51 Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighters. According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has refused to reduce its quota of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAF’s Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price — Rs 196 crore ($41 million) per aircraft — unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.

In comparison, each of the 126 brand-new, next-generation MMRCAs will cost some Rs 400 crore ($87 million) per aircraft. That includes the cost of technology transfers, as well as capital costs for setting up a manufacturing line in India. Once those costs are amortised, additional MMRCAs would be significantly cheaper.

...

But, the MoD is veering around to the view that the Mirage-2000 fleet should continue service in its current form. After six squadrons (126 aircraft) of MMRCAs have entered IAF service, an additional two squadrons of MMRCAs would be built to replace the 51 Mirage-2000 fighters. That amounts to a 40 per cent rise in the MMRCA’s numbers.

Israeli aerospace companies have reportedly entered the fray, offering to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the price being quoted by Dassault. The MoD, however, is not inclined to accept that offer.

Price negotiations for the Mirage-2000 upgrade have travelled a rocky road over two years. Initially, Dassault quoted Rs 13,500 crore ($2.9 billion), which it brought down to the current level of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) after the IAF diluted its upgrade requirements. But the MoD believes Dassault’s reduced bid only reflects the diluted requirements, rather than any flexibility on the latter’s part.

...

Five of the six contenders for the MMRCA contract — Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter, Gripen and RAC MiG — know they could reap handsome gains, through larger fighter orders, if India chooses not to upgrade the Mirage-2000. The sixth contender, Dassault Aviation itself, realises failure to negotiate the Mirage-2000 upgrade contract could seriously damage the chances of its Rafale fighter for the MMRCA contract.

...

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... er/373419/

If the proposed Mirage-2000 upgrade deal does not happen due to above cost issues, then Rafale is out of the MRCA contention.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 16 Oct 2009 23:01

^^^
Good riddance.....

The French definitely have zero business sense...
I remember reading years ago that the French Mirages need to be kept in special air conditioned hangars....wonder how far that is true? 41 million dollars with no engines is crazy! Compared to that the MiG and Su's are super ruff'n'tuff. The Bison is still flying which is an awesome thing for a machine from the 70's. Most people don't even use cars beyond 5-8 years.

I am with Shankarovsky....

Mig35 MKI-ized.....only problem is that the Russians will surely delay.
I guess just get EJ200 engines and start building LCA day in and day out. While Mig35 finally arrives in huge numbers.

Anthony Hines · Post by **Anthony Hines** » 16 Oct 2009 23:13

Russians promise and do not always deliver.
French may promise and may not deliver.
Swedes promise but cannot deliver.
Europeans debate and there are dissensions in the ranks so question marks there.
US - Buy from them and make sure that there are a bunch of lawyers in the negotiating team who know the game (Skadden Arps perhaps?)

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 16 Oct 2009 23:15

anishns wrote:I guess just get EJ200 engines and start building LCA day in and day out. While Mig35 finally arrives in huge numbers.

Why get the EJ200?? Why not throw the WEIGHT AND SUPPORT behind Kaveri and get the Desi version up ONCE AND FOR ALL... I think if the IAF really pushes and shows that they want the KAVERI to power LCA then I think by HOOK OR CROOK ADA/DRDO guys WILL DEVELOP KAVERI to the revised SPECS. All they need is a FIRM reassurance from the IAF that hey look we waited over 25 yrs what's 2-3 more years?? like the NAVY is showing them for the NAVAL LCA.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Oct 2009 23:39

I was under the impression that whatever Shankar eats/drinks was banned.

MRCA budget is constant, # of MRCA increases, so = MiG-35!!!! ?????????

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 16 Oct 2009 23:48

So at the end of the day it is like "laut ke buddu ghar ko aye".
Mig 35 is the only answer along with properly engined Tejas.
Since HAL already has started to absorb the SC tech, MoD should reinvest a part of the money into desi engine. Why heck we can pay the russis some more money to get the full rights if that is what is needed. I am sure it will still cheaper than this ~$15 billion figure we seem to staring at. MRCA is a fraud afterall.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Oct 2009 00:08

pay attention folks, french has already secured the productionizing the Kaveri order.. no back tracking on the $2b deal they are enjoying on Kaveri upthrusting to M88 core. I still feel, this is all GTRE's fault. wasted our tax payers... need madhavan nairs and kalam jis for GTRE.

Now, for the first two LCA squadron, the EJ200s are thought off.. and after that, bye bye EJ200s or perhaps some addings may happen for support. ie, perhaps to about 150 odd engines totally.

Now, if EADS does get the first two LCA squadrons, then they sit pretty well for MRCA order., and they will make a killing. OTOH, if GE414s are chosen, then MRCA would go to SH or Mig35s., since as of now, Rafale is lagging (courtesy AS).

Kaveri-Snecma is given.. I'd be surprised at this stage, they would want to screw up MRCA order. Its a shame on the french.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 17 Oct 2009 00:23

Now F16 is the only and best choice for IAF.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 17 Oct 2009 00:53

SaiK wrote:pay attention folks, french has already secured the productionizing the Kaveri order.. no back tracking on the $2b deal they are enjoying on Kaveri upthrusting to M88 core.

Chief, I don't have enough knoweledge about the Kaveri engine, but I can bet my ass off Kaver has ALREADY achieved BEYOND the M88-core LONG LONG TIME AGO..
M88 Maximum Thrust:
11,250 lbf (50.04 kN) military thrust
17,000 lbf (75.62 kN) with afterburner

Kaveri Maximum Thrust:
Military thrust (throttled):11,687 lbf (52.0 kN) [Goal: 13,500 lbf (60.0 kN) ]
Full afterburner:18,210 lbf (81.0 kN) [Goal: 20,200 lbf (90.0 kN)]

I think, you might be reffering to the M 88 ECO, which the Frenchies plan on having installed in their Rafale after 2010 having 90Kn as a requirement, but do correct me if i'm wrong.

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 17 Oct 2009 01:06

the MRCA deal size is increasing for sure from 126 it will be around 200+
and the budget cannot get any bigger
so that leaves only one contender -MIG 35

No one knows the REAL budget for the MRCA. The quoted 10/11 Billion is an estimate. The budget at this point isn't that big of an issue cuz India can afford 200+ EF or SH.

Kaveri-Snecma is given.. I'd be surprised at this stage, they would want to screw up MRCA order. Its a shame on the french.

Wasn't Snecma's offer for the Kaveri rejected? Even if it wasn't the kaveri is going to hold up the LCA anymore. When the Kaveri is capable of matching the EJ-2000/F-414 then it will be used in the LCA if it can't they won't use it. Why use an inferior engine.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Oct 2009 01:26

It may be the ECO, sorry.
my understanding was, the ECO-Kaveri will happen for all future LCAs, while the first few squads will get either F414s or EJ200s. May be I am phased out!

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 17 Oct 2009 01:30

Based on all the "screw India" that one can read of in this thread - I believe Russia is best option. I think the safest one is a combination Russian/Israeli solution.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Oct 2009 01:35

The Rafale is powered by two SNECMA M88-2 turbofans, with 50 kN (5,100 kg / 11,240 lb) dry thrust and 75 kN (7,645 kg / 16,860 lb) ..SNECMA is working on an uprated M88-3, which would have 90 kN (9,175 kg / 20,233 lb) afterburning thrust. The Rafale will require larger engine intakes for the M88-3, but new intakes can be retrofitted to older aircraft with little difficulty.

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avrafa.html

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Oct 2009 01:55

From the Ajai Shukla article:

The IAF, traditionally a staunch supporter of Dassault and the Mirage-2000 fighter, is apparently changing its views. Dassault, say pilots, has badly damaged its credibility during the recent negotiations by arm-twisting the IAF over the supply of spares for the Mirage-2000 fleet.

Kali yuga.

Russians, the US in SoKo, now French with M2Ks.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Oct 2009 02:18

Earlier I missed this from Ajai Shukla's article (his comment actually):

The "additional 64" means little. Once there is an assembly line up and running, India can easily build (and the foreign vendor will unquestioningly licence) however many additional fighters the Indian MoD requests.

In fact, most of the MMRCA contenders are banking on India eventually buying in excess of 200 fighters, due to emergent needs in the future.

:

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 17 Oct 2009 11:16

OT but, we should buy a sqdns worth of F-16's just for the heck of it!!!
ooooh! I can only imagine the heartburn and mirchi in the tailpipes of our western neighbours

Katare wrote:Now F16 is the only and best choice for IAF.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 17 Oct 2009 12:05

was talking to some senior ISRO guys on Kaveri

they are plain and simple disgusted at the way this particular project is being handled

They compared with turbo pump system for C-25 which was successful in first go

we have the capability in our country to manufacture high speed turbines and aero engines -it is just not being tapped the right way for various interests involved -need I say more

No matter how you look at it Mig 35 is sure aprt from cost and in house engine technology we already obtaining also the question of Arihant class "consultancy" and Brahmos 2 despite all bluster we shall not be able to make it without Russian help

so one by one others will drop off and obama compulsion with CTBT will make F-18 loose out - any way it is no match for Mig 35

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 17 Oct 2009 13:11

see i told you people comrade shankarosky will save us from chinese

stand by for Mig 35 induction and then we can talk again

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 17 Oct 2009 13:13

Based on all the "screw India" that one can read of in this thread - I believe Russia is best option. I think the safest one is a combination Russian/Israeli solution.

-yes just like Su 30 MKI mIG 35 MKI is the system to go for

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 17 Oct 2009 13:14

we should buy a sqdns worth of F-16's just for the heck of it!!!

we just might to train as aggressor squadron -a leaf out of red flag

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 17 Oct 2009 13:49

Shankar wrote:
stand by for Mig 35 induction and then we can talk again

there seems to be no option, everyone ultimately has to stand by mig-35, rafale and typhoon are too costly for us since numbers are around 200, gripen is nothing but like lca mk2, f-16--what to say india's enemy no 1 for past 2 and a half decade, that leaves f-18, we know how the american government controls their tech,they simply said no to lockheed to provide know how for the carrier version of lca, initially i voted FOR the rafale, but now the circumstances are as such that u have no options butt shankarosky's MIG-35

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 17 Oct 2009 16:39

initially i voted FOR the rafale, but now the circumstances are as such that u have no options butt shankarosky's MIG-35

welcome to the club

despite what you guys said -my love for Mig35 or any russian equipment for that matter is not based on blind support for any things Russian .Rather it is based on my understanding of reality of Indian armed forces toady some of the factors can not be ever discussed even in this thread

to start with it is based on my discussion with actual users - about thier comfort level with Russian system

followed by the top of the line w are getting from Russia as a cost no one elese will even consider -Arihant to name just one

my interaction with very top scientists and engineers who are responsible for integration of imported technology in aero space industry

a study of history from 62 to date

growth of Indian air force and navy from ww2 to present

sustained high level support from Russia in all conflicts except 62 and that maybe because there were no strategic links forged on that date

All that US has actually done till date in military area is best forgotten at a high cost like the weapon locating radar and Trenton

if you compare to Russin staff well that is laughable at best

French systems are good but overall they come a poor second though our space program particularly viking engine technology was given for almost free in exchange of engineering man hours during development of the engine in france

So it is no big sorrow that others have been pushed out of MRCA deal - let us welcome Mig 35 with open arms like we did Su30 and make it rule the skies the same way .10 years from now world will be jealous of Mig35 just like today they are of Su 30 MKI

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Oct 2009 17:04

The Russians have done a great job with the SU-30MKI that incorporated Israeli,French and desi eqpt.,a most challenging task.These aircraft have served us very well,showed the world's air forces that we are second to none with them,and more are being ordered.With that track record,it is ludicrous to say that the MIG Corp.,now headed by the very same individual who heads the Sukhoi Corp.,in the integrated OAK corp that has amalgamated all major Russian manufacturers,will be unable to deliver on the MIG-35 as it did on the SU-30MKI.Remember that the SU-30MKI also did not exist at the time of order.Only a two-seat Flanker was initially procured,the aircraft now waiting to be returned to Russia.

The costs for upgrading the MIG-29 being executed now are realistic and affordable by the IAF.Therefore,one can conclude-and costs have been gvien before,that the most cost-effective twin-engined fighter for the MMRCA deal would be the MIG-35.As mentioned earlier,twin-engine fighters have a "5" times extra surviviable rate in peacetime (Northorp study),which should be more specially in the Indian context of bird strikes.It is astonishing that the French have not worked on a deal whereby they would take back the old M-2000s and replace them all with rafales as part of the MMRCA deal.That would've given them an inside line on the deal.With the outrageous upgrade figures for the M-2000,almost the price of a Gripen(!),mon ami Rafale is certain to fail.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 17 Oct 2009 17:45

su-30mki repeatedly defeated f-15c/e and f-16 block 50/52 in exercises ,it was almost on par with eurofighter ,expect the mig-35 to be better for following reasons:
1. 3d-TVC
2.AESA
3.OLS
4.ELLETRONICA ACTIVE RADAR jammer
5.newer weapons like RVV-SD and RVV-MD
6.280 KM range KH-59MK2 and many more

see shankarosky ,i speak russian now,what about some diwali vodka

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 17 Oct 2009 18:11

Philip wrote:The costs for upgrading the MIG-29 being executed now are realistic and affordable by the IAF.Therefore,one can conclude-and costs have been gvien before,that the most cost-effective twin-engined fighter for the MMRCA deal would be the MIG-35

1 billion for upgrading 60 mig29 + 250 million for 120 rd33-3 engines with TOT
so this becomes 1.25 billion for 60 mig29 upgrade

or 20.83 million for each mig29 upgrade with 2 new rd33-3 engines on each aircraft

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 17 Oct 2009 18:19

it was almost on par with eurofighter

How can you compare SU30MKI w EF2000 when they sent Jr pilots to UK for the excercise and Sr pilots against F15 in Agra. Otherwise our politicians would fly the SU30 and it would beat all comers.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 17 Oct 2009 18:27

Shankar wrote:10 years from now world will be jealous of Mig35 just like today they are of Su 30 MKI

My dream is the joint manufacturing & marketing of Mig-35 & LCA mk2 for domestic needs and abroad

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Oct 2009 18:58

I just HOPE that India does NOT sit pretty on ANY MRCA or the LCA for that matter.

It would be a huge travesty.

Not even the MKI should make India confident.

It HAS to be the FGFA and or the MCA that has to be the base in 10 years.

Need to stop being confident, cocky and smug.

MKI + MRCA feed into the FGFA
LCA feeds into the MCA

FGFA + MCA share.

In 15 years or so: retire everything but MRCA, LCA, MKI and FGFA/MCA.

In 30 years or less retire MKI, LCA as we know them and move ahead based on FGFA and MCA.

prabir · Post by **prabir** » 17 Oct 2009 19:45

Igorr wrote:
Shankar wrote:10 years from now world will be jealous of Mig35 just like today they are of Su 30 MKI
My dream is the joint manufacturing & marketing of Mig-35 & LCA mk2 for domestic needs and abroad

It is going to happen. With increased media scrutiny and threat perceptions, market orientation has to be imbibed in these projects.

kishan · Post by **kishan** » 17 Oct 2009 21:27

NRao wrote:I just HOPE that India does NOT sit pretty on ANY MRCA or the LCA for that matter.

It would be a huge travesty.

Not even the MKI should make India confident.

It HAS to be the FGFA and or the MCA that has to be the base in 10 years.

Need to stop being confident, cocky and smug.

MKI + MRCA feed into the FGFA
LCA feeds into the MCA

FGFA + MCA share.

In 15 years or so: retire everything but MRCA, LCA, MKI and FGFA/MCA.

In 30 years or less retire MKI, LCA as we know them and move ahead based on FGFA and MCA.

Also IAF should work on inducting UAV's(like MQ9 Reapers if not the same) in considerable numbers.They play quiet a role in the future

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Oct 2009 21:44

Also IAF should work on inducting UAV's(like MQ9 Reapers if not the same) in considerable numbers.They play quiet a role in the future

True.

The US is expecting/hoping 33% of their AF will be UAVs by 2020.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 18 Oct 2009 13:28

MIG 35 meets the IAF needs for many reasons - some new developments only strengthen their case

1) Threat on eastern front -yesterday First regiment of T-72 were shifted to Sikim so the threat is real . If we quickly finalize the Mig 35 deal ,increase production capacity of RD33 it will be a big boost to air defense of the region .We can also take in couple of squadrons of Mig 29s from Russia from their huge inventory and quickly induct into our eastern air command. We already have the trained pilots and ground crew and rest can be trained up at minimum cost and more important time

2) The upgrade cost of Mig 29 fleet is much much less than Mirage 2000 -what the heck we can possibly buy a Mig 29 for the price of a mirage 2000 upgrade and more - they can come straight from Russian inventory and inducted in forward airbases -not possible with any other contender and then later on replaced or we can just keep them for war situation -money we can talk later

3) eastern front we have one significant advantage and that is low altitude air bases - a mix of flankers and fulcrums in strength will sure dissuade the dragon from tryiing to take on Arunachal sikim

4) we at this point just can not risk another sanction crap - too much is at stake -

5) we need to bu outright Mig 29s as many as Russia can "spare" induct them and get them upgraded replaced with time .

6) Mig 35 is much more stealthy than Su 30 present version so a big plus

7) If we dont want a repeat of 62 - mIG 35 is the obvious choice

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 18 Oct 2009 13:34

f the Russian Air Force was capable of cutting the Indian accident rate in half, that is to 12 aircraft per 100,000 hours (there is some verbal confirmation from sources on that range of numbers), then over the ten year period they would still have lost at least 110 airframes. Now with Belyakov's revelation that nearly 100 x MiG-29's were in storage all around the MiG plants, we can assume that the VVS had adequate replacement resources, but in the force structure downsizing many lost MiG's may have not been replaced or the units consolidated aircraft as they were disbanded.
http://www.saunalahti.fi/fta/MiG-29-1.htm

At present there are atleast 100 plus mIG 29s in storage in Russia if not many times more . At say 35 million a piece we can buy the whole lot 3.5 billion and quickly induct with new engines and radars that will give us close to six operating squadrons in one go .As the Mig 35 production ramps up we can replace upgrade stage wise just like we did with Su 30k

Ofcourse we need to have RD 33K thrust vectoring engines if possible quickly

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 19 Oct 2009 00:01

Damn you go away for a couple of days and the Natashas are back

hmm we already have 70 percent of all major weapon systems from RUssia

so our way to become a regional power is to make that 100 %

Then in one little tiff we can all our Migs and Sus sitting pretty on the tarmac, ships anchored and tanks rusting,

Why not also staff our forces with Russians too.

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 19 Oct 2009 01:37

Igorr wrote: My dream is the joint manufacturing & marketing of Mig-35 & LCA mk2 for domestic needs and abroad

Aameen to your dream my friend.

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 19 Oct 2009 02:01

Surya wrote: we already have 70 percent of all major weapon systems from RUssia
so our way to become a regional power is to make that 100 %
Then in one little tiff we can all our Migs and Sus sitting pretty on the tarmac, ships anchored and tanks rusting,
Why not also staff our forces with Russians too.

Surya jee, your concern is justifiable to some extent but its not completely true. There was a time when Russia and India shared a Seller-buyer relationship only. However, now we have moved on to joint ventures in many projects. Brahmos, PAKFA/FGFA etc are classic examples of the same. India is also looking forward to indigenous products like LCA and MCA. So slowly but gradually we are trying to ensure that our defence portfolio comprises of products that are either indigenous or a result of joint ventures. Therefore, I don't see much merit in the argument that we should not buy MIG 35 because it would make us overtly dependent upon Russia. Even if we end up buying MIG 35, we shall be less dependent upon them than we were 10-15 years back.

We must also understand that every decision has an opportunity cost. We are bound to incur some cost by going the Russian way. But in my humble opinion, this cost will be much lower than the opportunity cost of siding by the Americans or the French.