Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Singha]

In any initial war with china, from the word go, there will be atleast 500 close to a 1000 targets, including fuel dumps, bridges, enemy mil hardware concentrations, communications / C3I nodes, SAM sites, SSM / Cruise missile sites which will have to be taken out

what you say is ideal, but I dont think even the great_khan has enough tomahawks or strike planes to address 500-1000 targets in a day - not unless they mobilize every last airframe to
prepare for WW3. JASSM has been a expensive failure so far.

the bulk of the heavy lifting will still have to be done by IAF. to some extent Smerch can help out.
brahmos to the extent available will have to be used with care due to limited nos.

if we had 3000 brahmos and 3000 nirbhay today, could afford to lash out from the word go.

[kit]

Ideal would be a cheaper Brahmos but i guess it would have to be Nirbhay , that it is subsonic matters against heavily defended targets.So let s say you would need a combo of datalinked Brahmos and Nirbhays to mop up Chinese targets, the hypersonic one would take down the defending SAMs and radars, Nirbhays would do the rest of the cleaning up.Armoured formations can be treated to SMERCH / PINAKA combos followed by tactical PRITHVIs armed with specialised warheads.The one main concern would be PLAs missile regiments.Targetting all the missile formations in Tibet would be the first priority in any war scenario.With the chinese missile capability blunted India would certainly be able to take the war into China.There should be no war inside Indian territory the next time, IAF and IA should take it into China and Tibet.India has been too defensive and pacifistic for the past few decades, time to change.

[Singha]

totally agree. any war needs to be fought inside tibet where the terrain is favourable to mobility and territorial gains can be retained just as the chinese kept aksai chin for themselves.

one particularly juicy morsel would be the salient between Sikkim and Bhutan to cut off this paw
for good and remove all threat to the chicken neck region.

a couple of airborne soviet style brigades sealing the cork on this bottle from the north would
have been ideal. then waves of tactical artillery, airpower and armour to smash the trapped
divisions cowering inside the trap beyond nathu la.

[saptarishi]

In any initial war with china, from the word go, there will be atleast 500 close to a 1000 targets, including fuel dumps, bridges, enemy mil hardware concentrations, communications / C3I nodes, SAM sites, SSM / Cruise missile sites which will have to be taken out

what you say is ideal, but I dont think even the great_khan has enough tomahawks or strike planes to address 500-1000 targets in a day - not unless they mobilize every last airframe to
prepare for WW3. JASSM has been a expensive failure so far.

the bulk of the heavy lifting will still have to be done by IAF. to some extent Smerch can help out.
brahmos to the extent available will have to be used with care due to limited nos.

if we had 3000 brahmos and 3000 nirbhay today, could afford to lash out from the word go.

we can take on china anyday because unlike '62 we have nuke,,what if we don't have icbms, nukes are nukes

[babbupandey]

we can take on china anyday because unlike '62 we have nuke,,what if we don't have icbms, nukes are nukes

Nukes are there only as a moral booster to armed forces. They know that we won't use them and we know that they won't use them even if we didn't have nukes.
In this era, nukes can only be used by nations like Pakistan where there is no political stability, not enough strength for conventional fight and desperation to kill as many Indians as they can due to historical reasons. No "truly" powerful country (economic, military and responsible country) would ever think of such thing.

[Gagan]

The nukes will only prevent this spilling out into all out war. Period. Neither India nor china will ever use it against the other.

The scenario then will be limited to a border skirmish with use of artillery, troops on the ground, I doubt even that the Air power will be used in a major way. A few bombing runs on the forces along the border and that's it. India doesn't have any LACM's numbers to cause the chinese any trouble at this point. I guess the IN could help by moving some of its Styx coastal missile batteries to the peaks to bolster numbers, I wonder if these missile old and slow as they are could be used to target big metal formations?

Again India doesn't have MLRS in numbers. 100 odd peices of Smerch or a similar number of Pinakas or only about 300-400 pieces of 155mm howitzers is like a drop in the ocean when you consider the length of the Indo-Tibet border. Add to that about 200 odd Brahmos and the story does not look good on the indian side. With these force levels, India will be relying most on the ordinary soldier on the borders to do the fighting, instead of fighting a war of attrition with the chinese, to cut off their war fighting ability by taking out their supply lines.

Neither does India have the numbers as far as SAM cover is concerned to protect what little forces India deploys. I will not rely too much on the performance of the Army's SAMs many of them old russian ones, some of them more suited for the museums rather than the battle field, to be very successful in handling a salvo attack from the chinese.

If india and china go to a border war, the ordinary indian soldier will be paying a heavy price, because India lacks the infrastructure to support that soldier, India lacks the numbers to lift some of the load off that soldier.

Let us talk of fighting inside tibet when we are more or less equal to the forces that the chinese deploy on the ground TODAY.

[sum]

Again India doesn't have MLRS in numbers. 100 odd peices of Smerch or a similar number of Pinakas or only about 300-400 pieces of 155mm howitzers is like a drop in the ocean when you consider the length of the Indo-Tibet border. Add to that about 200 odd Brahmos and the story does not look good on the indian side. With these force levels, India will be relying most on the ordinary soldier on the borders to do the fighting, instead of fighting a war of attrition with the chinese, to cut off their war fighting ability by taking out their supply lines.

Neither does India have the numbers as far as SAM cover is concerned to protect what little forces India deploys. I will not rely too much on the performance of the Army's SAMs many of them old russian ones, some of them more suited for the museums rather than the battle field, to be very successful in handling a salvo attack from the chinese.

Depressing read....
Sadly, other than a decent improvement in SAMs ( with induction of more Aakash, LRSAM, MRSAM etc), dont see other areas being improved upon in the near future...

[NRao]

Again India doesn't have MLRS in numbers. 100 odd peices of Smerch or a similar number of Pinakas or only about 300-400 pieces of 155mm howitzers is like a drop in the ocean when you consider the length of the Indo-Tibet border. Add to that about 200 odd Brahmos and the story does not look good on the indian side. With these force levels, India will be relying most on the ordinary soldier on the borders to do the fighting, instead of fighting a war of attrition with the chinese, to cut off their war fighting ability by taking out their supply lines.

Neither does India have the numbers as far as SAM cover is concerned to protect what little forces India deploys. I will not rely too much on the performance of the Army's SAMs many of them old russian ones, some of them more suited for the museums rather than the battle field, to be very successful in handling a salvo attack from the chinese.

Does it REALLY matter?

MoD will pay 10x to Israel, Russia, etc to get any and all pronto AFTER a war has started with the Chinese.

Do not worry. Let the war start then MoD will respond - fast track.

It is ONLY a matter of cost.

[vishnu.nv]

its not simple as that.... we can do that may be in case of fighter's. but in case of SAM and MBRL's there should be experienced hands behind it. Ask Georgians they will explain this better.

[NRao]

its not simple as that.... we can do that may be in case of fighter's. but in case of SAM and MBRL's there should be experienced hands behind it. Ask Georgians they will explain this better.

Now, are you saying Indian forces are THAT bad?

[vishnu.nv]

No.... Not at all. What i am saying is that war time induction of all new gizmos without a proper training will end up in disaster. How many Israeli spyder system's we have till now? For that matter s-300?

The Georgians had latest Israyeli weapons.... UAV's...SPYDER ...ect to name a few. But they could not make optimal use of it since they where inducted newly. All the work done was by their upgraded Soviet weapons.

[Aditya G]

Again India doesn't have MLRS in numbers. 100 odd peices of Smerch or a similar number of Pinakas or only about 300-400 pieces of 155mm howitzers is like a drop in the ocean when you consider the length of the Indo-Tibet border.

If we learn from our Kargil and 1962 experience, the following things will be required to win a realistic 'border war' scenario:

1. Troops acclimaised to high altitude. Lots of them.
2. Large 'army' of porters and mules
3. Massive bombardment by tube artillery (155 mm please)
4. Artillery locating radars for counter bombardment
5. High concentration of mortar guns
6. Air Force (to what extent is the question - but definitely on Indian side)
7. Open highway through Rohtang pass
8. Train connectivity to NH-1A

MRLS cannot replace #3 - there cannot be any win in the mountains without tube artillery. JMHO.

AFAIK Brahmos and other wiz bang is not so important. I dont expect PLAAF to join in a border war scenario either.

It is difficult to tell if we have enough troops to open an offensive, given that we are going to raise two whole new mountain divisions, according to Ravi Rikhye more are needed. But nevertheless the situation is not hopeless given we have SFF, SSB and ITBP which are not counted in Army strength and - which did not exist in 1962. RR and AR can also be relied on but

Key to all this is a logistics backing which at least in 1999 held we need to make a thrust in the Aksai chin area and we have some BMPs in the area - but facing what from PLA?

[nayar]

Your assumption of the PLAAF not getting involved is a big mistake. One of the main reasons why we won the Kargil war was air superiority over our own terrain. Even with lots of soldiers on the ground and at high advantageous positions the chinese can still pick them off one by one by their air force and I dont think the SAMs will be able to do much because of the highly uneven terrain and their radars being blocked by the mountains. In this case we have only one weapon that can cause unthinkable damage to the chinese and thats the Brahmos. I believe we should speed up the development and production of the air launched Brahmos and longer range 1000km (which I know is not happening) brahmos and make them versatile enough to take out chinese airfields near and far so that they dont even think of using their air to air refuelling aircarft. With no counter weapon they cannot see it coming. If in the far future we manage to develop the Nirbhay even then the chinese can take it out with their S-300's that they are mass producing.

[VijayKumarSinha]

Your assumption of the PLAAF not getting involved is a big mistake.

It is my understanding that, that word is banned in BRF and should be banned everywhere else.....
hopefully mod bhagwan notices this soon, and does an akashvani.

[nayar]

My apologies. I didnt knw that word was banned. I hav been using this word for so long here in LA that its hard to get rid off. No need to run and call Daddy.

[asprinzl]

For India and China to continue to be civilizational soceities, it is wise to avoid war at all. Europe is declining and Muslims are on the march over there. America is slowly declining especially the anchor caucasian population. Islam is making major inroads into South America. In fifty to seventy years Muslims would be majority in Ethiopia. The only pillar of non Muslim civilization/power is the twin pillar of China and India.

Anyways, what is this over reliance on Brahmos? It is a 300km tactical missile. It is not a strategic weapon.
Until Indian materials science can come up with light weight rocket materials that will dramatically reduce the weights of Indian strategic rockets thus extending the range equally dramatically which in turn will make Chinese territories and any other nations' territories within reach from any corner of the globe, 1) Indian can never be able to sit at the high table of power nations as equal 2) India will never be able to play hardball with China in true sense.

It would make absolute national security sense for the political leaders to not put any brakes in the design, development and testing of ICBMs. It is imperative that the leaders think and act with national security in heart and mind instead of scoring stooopeed brownie points to stroke the self egos in their eyes of the international community.

Leaders must understand that trying to look good in the eyes of the Norweigians, Swedes, Danes, Irish and the Canadians is not necessarily good thing for India.
Avram

[VijayKumarSinha]

I hav been using this word for so long here in LA that its hard to get rid off.
No need to run and call Daddy.

Some people just don't know how to be civil.

[nayar]

Question: Can Brahmos destroy an enemy airfield's runways and make it useless ?? I dont knw if the IA practices this kind of targeting with Brahmos. And I dont think that simply the kinetic energy of the Brahmos is able to do that.

[shiv]

Would anyone like to see what the terrain is like at and near the India-Tibet border before the weapon requirements are finalized on the forum?

Kelik on thumbnail

[sanjaychoudhry]

Russia and India To Develop Supersonic Missile Invincible to Interception
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economi ... ia_india-0

India, Russia to Develop New Hypersonic Cruise Missile
http://www.indiajournal.com/pages/event.php?id=8668
NEW DELHI - India and Russia have agreed to develop and induct a new hypersonic version of their joint venture 174 miles-range BrahMos cruise missile by 2015.

A Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) in this regard was signed between the two sides last month, in which they agreed on the final parameters for the new version of the cruise missile.

The new missile will be known as ‘BrahMos-2’ and will have a speed of over 6 Mach (around 3,600 miles per hour) with a striking-range of 174 miles. (PTI)

[nayar]

Would anyone like to see what the terrain is like at and near the India-Tibet border before the weapon requirements are finalized on the forum?

Kelik on thumbnail

Thats what I am saying we need longer range missiles of the Brahmos kind for the terrain to take the offensive to their side( meaning airfields in Tibet and not troop concentrations along the mountains). But even then I believe that the chinese wont cross the Himalayas anywhere they want. They would swarm through the passes. To target these simple artillery and MBRLs will be enough as they will be on the relatively flatter plains on the Indian side.

[Vipul]

Astra air-to-air missile to make its first flight.

Veteran fighter pilots lament the end of the dogfight, the evocative name for a twisty, sky-ripping, adrenaline-packed aerial duel, in which the winner gets behind his opponent and shoots him down with a burst of cannon fire.

Today, it is less about flying skill, cold nerve and highly-responsive aircraft; the modern-day dogfighting ace is an airborne video-game expert who uses radar to detect his foe at long ranges, and launch a beyond visual range (BVR) missile even before his victim realises that the engagement has begun.

Just days from now, a Sukhoi-30MKI fighter will take off from an Indian Air Force (IAF) base, an Astra missile fitted on its wing. This will be the first-ever flight of this indigenously developed BVR missile, which the IAF hopes will add punch to its fleet of Sukhoi-30MKI, Mig-29, Mirage-2000 and Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) fighters.

The Astra, built by the Defence R&D Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad, will allow IAF pilots to hit enemy aircraft up to 44 km away, at altitudes up to 20,000 metres. Improving on that will be the Astra Mk II, with a longer range of 80 km.

The Astra incorporates many cutting-edge technologies. Here is how an Astra would take on an enemy fighter: an IAF fighter’s radar picks up the target; the pilot launches an Astra missile. A high-energy propellant quickly boosts the missile to several times the speed of sound. At ranges beyond 15 km, the Astra cannot “see” its target, so the IAF fighter guides the missile, relaying the target’s continually changing position over a secure radio link. Once it is 15 km from the target, the Astra’s onboard seeker picks up the target; after that the Astra homes in on its own.

At this point, the target would start turning and diving to throw off the missile. But the Astra manoeuvres better, and moves much faster, than even the most agile fighters. A radio proximity fuse measures the distance to the target. When the target is within 5 metres, the Astra’s radio proximity fuse detonates its warhead, sending a volley of shrapnel ripping through the enemy fighter.

Most of these technologies have already been proven. The propulsion system, the data link between the aircraft and the Astra, the radio proximity fuse, the onboard computer, the inertial navigation system and other key technologies were developed at the DRDO’s missile complex in Hyderabad.

The Astra’s seeker is still imported from Russia, but the DRDO hopes to develop one.

The forthcoming test with a Sukhoi-30MKI is called a “captive flight trial”; it will evaluate whether the Astra can withstand the physical stresses of supersonic flying and high-speed manoeuvring. Early in 2010, a “captive-II flight trial” will check whether the Astra’s avionics are properly matched with those of the Sukhoi-30MKI. The fighter should receive the missile’s signals; and the Astra should receive the aircraft’s commands.

“Matching an Indian missile with a Russian fighter’s avionics has turned out to be a complex task”, explains Mukesh Chand, one of the Astra’s key developers, “But the Astra will be much better integrated with the Indian Tejas LCA.”

Only in October 2010, after all the Astra’s systems are certified airworthy, will a live Astra be fired from a fighter. But the project scientists are confident; in a September 2008 test in Balasore, Orissa, a ground-launched Astra shot down an electronic target, validating many of the most complex technologies.

A drawback in the Astra remains its high weight; even a heavy fighter like the Sukhoi-30MKI cannot carry the missile on its wingtip stations. In comparison with the Astra’s estimated 150 kg, other BVR missiles like the Israeli Derby weigh around 100 kg only.

Nevertheless, the IAF believes the Astra will usefully supplement India’s inventory of BVR missiles. The Russian R-77 Adder, which arms India’s Russian aircraft fleet, faces worrying questions about its reliability. And the R530D missile, carried by the Mirage-2000, is nearing obsolescence.

[m mittal]

Someone always keeps deleting my messages without any follow-up.

I think some consider that BR forums are only their property and any views which don't sound the same note as theirs are deleted.

This is ridiculous and is not a behavior which projects democracy.

I have been a staunch follower of BR for almost 4-5 years as of now. Last year I had a email address which finally allowed me to join BR and I was so excited.

BUT I am very disappointed and I am quitting BR.

Newcomers beware, some guys in here consider these forums as their personal property.

[Nikhil T]

Astra air-to-air missile to make its first flight.

The Astra, built by the Defence R&D Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad, will allow IAF pilots to hit enemy aircraft up to 44 km away, at altitudes up to 20,000 metres. Improving on that will be the Astra Mk II, with a longer range of 80 km.

Does anyone know of the timeframe for development of Astra Mk II ? We need to go over 100km in order to minimize the possibility of enemy SAM's picking up our own fighters.

[AmitR]

Why is the entire article from Shuklaji's blog being copy pasted here. A link and a small quote will suffice I believe.

[SanjibGhosh]

The Astra, built by the Defence R&D Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad, will allow IAF pilots to hit enemy aircraft up to 44 km away,

Earlier report was that Astra could track the head on target from 80km and 20 km while chasing one. How dose it come down to 44 km ...!!!

[Mihir.D]

The Astra, built by the Defence R&D Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad, will allow IAF pilots to hit enemy aircraft up to 44 km away,

Earlier report was that Astra could track the head on target from 80km and 20 km while chasing one. How dose it come down to 44 km ...!!!

Could it be that 44 KM is the no-escape zone for a fighter target ?

[akshay]

mind the language please.
anyway, username changed to akshay.

[ChandraS]

The Astra, built by the Defence R&D Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad, will allow IAF pilots to hit enemy aircraft up to 44 km away,

Earlier report was that Astra could track the head on target from 80km and 20 km while chasing one. How dose it come down to 44 km ...!!!

Sanjib, 44km is for Mk 1. Mk2 will have 80km head on range. It;s the sentence after the one you quoted

The Astra, built by the Defence R&D Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad, will allow IAF pilots to hit enemy aircraft up to 44 km away, at altitudes up to 20,000 metres. Improving on that will be the Astra Mk II, with a longer range of 80 km.

[Singha]

does the spec match the amraam? per raytheon website the c7 model is 148kg, but F-solah seems
to carry wingtip amraams! perhaps the tejas and mki wingtip pylons are not so highly rated.

[akshay]

About Astra

The missle range go up or down depending on altitude ....44 km is range at dense atmosphere in lower altitude.

[csharma]

Apart from the range of enemy SAMs, shouldn't one look at the range of enemy BVR missile ranges too? What are the ranges of BVR missiles that China and Pakistan possess?

[akshay]

Moderator,

You have removed the word..Fine {not just the word. use proper sentences and not sms speak. words like shld are not acceptable.}

Where is the post ??? You shld have kept the post {sorry honey, I decide that ! I couldn't edit out all the errant words and still keep a meaningful post.}
Who told you to change the UserName ?? {kindly do read the board regulations in red at the top of page, especially the part about usernames. the username you chose wasn't acceptable.}Do admins do that, can u update my profile?

[akshay]

Anybody has inside info on NAG Atgm ??

I knw the GOI has bought a ton of Milan/Konkur and is eval Javelin system and Spike.
Just want to know why?

[Rahul M]

akshay, could you PLEASE read the last half a dozen pages of this thread ?
or at least google ? your question has been answered more than once. it's a bit tiring for people to answer the same things to people who don't even even make an attempt to get some background info on their own.

just a hint to start you off, milan/javelin and nag are DIFFERENT classes of anti-tank missiles.

P.S. I replied to your other post last page.

[Amitabh]

Thanks Rakall, i was wondering whether interested people here could find the means of updating the Missile page till something happens. It could just be that the relevant information can be collated and arranged by onlookers and later it could be updated by anyone.

Or you could just look at the cached page on Google minus the illustrations and photos.

Some illustrations are visible here, here and here.

[Kanson]

^^^ Thanks Amitabh for the links. My post is geared towards enquiring whether anyone can handle the mantle till somone is officially appointed to man the missile pages just to caputre the recent information from the recent tests.

[Kanson]

From Ajai's blog.

An article by me, published in Business Standard and posted on Broadsword on 12th Oct, has been picked up by the Chinese media, apparently to highlight growing Indian offensive capability. People's Daily online says:


"India's Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL) has made its forthcoming Agni-5 missile highly road-mobile, or easily transportable by road, which would bring Harbin, China's northernmost city within striking range if the Agni-5 is moved to northeast India.


The Agni-5 is similar to the Dongfeng-31A presented in China's National Day Military Parade in Beijing . India is going to test-fire the missile in early 2011.


The ASL, which develops India's long-range, nuclear-tipped missiles, enables the Agni-5 to reach targets far beyond its stated 5,000-km range by quickly moving closer to the target. Therefore, from various places across India, the Agni-5 can reach every continent except North and South America."

I think he also compared the size and length of Agni missile with the DF-31A missile, that leads to the Chinese media speculation.

[sarang]

Dear Mr. Arun_S.

why the Agni (and other) missile pages are degraded instead of upgrade.

Are admins are in some kind of problem with MoD or what?

Kindly Reply.

Sarang.

[AmitR]

Dear Mr. Arun_S.

why the Agni (and other) missile pages are degraded instead of upgrade.

Are admins are in some kind of problem with MoD or what?

Kindly Reply.

Sarang.

Dear Mr. Sarang,

Arun_S has left BR and along with him his missile pages.
Kindly refer to the Google cached pages if interested.

Yours Truly,
AmitR