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AmitR wrote:
Just in case you don't know enough, Paki is a term used collectively for all the south asians.
I am not sure why or how the BRF Mods function. They delete perfectly sane posts but tolerate such pathetic racist blabber.
We might not know ENOUGH but I surely know that I am not a Paki. Pakistan is getting what they deserve.
Jaisi Karni vaisi bharni, Rit sada ki hoye; Boye Beej babool ke, Aam kahan se hoye ?
Not sure where you got the idea to doubt BRF mods. When they wield the danda, they really WIELD it . Not sure if some Paki lurkers are infesting this Forum
Pranav wrote:Well, when you start peeling the onion of "Pakistani society", you are ultimately left with a relatively small core. So one should be careful to not say things that could be misconstrued.
Pranav, thanks for the advice. I am deeply indebted and enlightened.
vavinash wrote:All the people spouting rubbish about dharma. The only dharma is to fight for motherland and kill her enemies. As far as I am concerned all {}@~ qualify.
Your post is not only in poor taste, it is also extremely racist and xenophobic.
Just in case you don't know enough, Paki is a term used collectively for all the south asians. So by that yardstick all Indians also qualify to be killed. I am not sure why or how the BRF Mods function. They delete perfectly sane posts but tolerate such pathetic racist blabber.
Why is this considered as in bad taste? IMHO, this is the most lucid & apt illustration of the duty before every right minded patriotic Indian. Never ever show kindness or sympathy when you know that it shall never ever be reciprocated or even acknowledged. Paki kids died, well good for us, it only means a few lesser jihadis in the future.
AmitR wrote:Your post is not only in poor taste, it is also extremely racist and xenophobic.
Just in case you don't know enough, Paki is a term used collectively for all the south asians. So by that yardstick all Indians also qualify to be killed. I am not sure why or how the BRF Mods function. They delete perfectly sane posts but tolerate such pathetic racist blabber.
'Paki' is a racist word only in the UK. That context is strictly limited to the UK.
Paki is a natural abbreviation...like Uzbeki, Tajiki etc. There is no 'extremely racist and xenophobic' behavior when an Indian uses it referring to Pakistanis.
This idea of Paki being a racist word...is what is called as fractal recursivity.
AmitR wrote:Your post is not only in poor taste, it is also extremely racist and xenophobic.
Just in case you don't know enough, Paki is a term used collectively for all the south asians. So by that yardstick all Indians also qualify to be killed. I am not sure why or how the BRF Mods function. They delete perfectly sane posts but tolerate such pathetic racist blabber.
'Paki' is a racist word only in the UK. That context is strictly limited to the UK.
Paki is a natural abbreviation...like Uzbeki, Tajiki etc. There is no 'extremely racist and xenophobic' behavior when an Indian uses it referring to Pakistanis.
This idea of Paki being a racist word...is what is called as fractal recursivity.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ edited out - JE Menon
Is that also used only in the UK context?
BTW BRF is a website, it has servers in UK and global reach so get out of your little frog in the well mentality.
If being racist is wrong it is wrong everywhere. Don't try to hide it behind "we are like this only in India".
OK guys. Enough on the semantic dissection on the term 'paki'. This term cannot and should not refer to Indians. Anybody who disagrees has no place on this forum. Let's be clear about this.
What's with misplaced sympathies about Pakis being victims (of their own terror policies and hatred). Yes, the whole nation deserves the blame.
Is "left liberals" a suitable (and generous) term to describe those that sympathize with the Paki victims of terror. Pseudo intellectuals inflicted with noble-itis and Nobel-itis are a big problem for India.
Yet public and official reaction here has been very different from the gung-ho support most Pakistanis are giving their national army as it embarks on a crucial campaign to oust Taliban forces from South Waziristan, the embattled tribal region near the Afghan border that has served as the extremist group's sanctuary for years.
Here in Punjab province, political reality is more complex. The region is home to the main opposition party, the Pakistan Muslim League-N, and an influential religious party, Jamaat-e-Islami. It is also the base for several militant Islamist groups, such as Lashkar-i-Taiba, that are now officially banned but were once sponsored by the state to fight India and other foes.
As a result, officials here tend to shy away from harsh condemnations. Instead, their explanations for the growing wave of terrorism are a mix of anti-government rhetoric and insinuations that outside forces, especially India and the United States, are conspiring to weaken Muslim-ruled Pakistan, in part by forcing it into armed conflict with local militants.
Analysts said that despite Zardari's growing public focus on the terrorist threat, and the army's latest thrust into Taliban territory, many Pakistanis remain hesitant to criticize anything Islamic, ready to blame outsiders for their problems and bewildered by the official shift from patronizing to persecuting domestic Islamist militias.
South pakjab is a jihadist and sectarian hotbed, am told. What about northern pakjab then? Which pakjab is the core pakjab? AFAIK, south pakjab speaks seraiki and not strictly punjabi even, so north pakjab must be the evil core of TSP.
Between the 2-south and north pakjab, which is bigger and more populuous? Just wondering if there are more IEDeological divisions ripe for tapping into.....
A US Navy F/A-18C Hornet returns to the Helmand River Valley, Pakistan, July 2009.
(Public Domain) Commander Erik Etz/defenseimagery.mil
President Obama is still weighing whether to send additional troops to Afghanistan to extirpate al-Qaida, but the really decisive battle in the war with the terror network was joined this weekend - and US forces aren’t even there, Shaun Waterman writes for ISN Security Watch.
By Shaun Waterman in Washington, DC for ISN Security Watch
After a string of terror attacks last week, including one at its own general headquarters, the Pakistani military Saturday finally launched its long-heralded offensive against extremists in South Waziristan.
About 28,000 troops moved in on three fronts, with artillery and air support continuing bombardment of suspected strongholds of the Pakistani Taliban Movement, or TTP.
Extremist heartland
In many ways, Waziristan is the geographical heartland of that confluence of foreign and domestic extremist networks, inaccessible terrain and ungovernable, martial tribal traditions that have made the whole Afghan-Pakistan border such a problem for US strategy in its war against al-Qaida. Many analysts still finger it as the most likely hiding place of Osama bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri.
“Nearly every major jihadist plot against western targets in the last two decades somehow leads back to” this border region, notes al-Qaida expert Peter Bergen.
And it is camps in the tribal areas that are the focus of growing recent concern about European extremists being recruited and groomed for the next wave of al-Qaida operations, reports the Washington Post.
Bangladesh and Pakistan: Flirting with Failure in South Asia
By William B Milam
Hurst, 2009
ISBN: 0231700660
His prognosis on Pakistan is indeed bleak. Bangladesh, meanwhile, fares a bit better, not least because of its appreciable progress in social development, largely fuelled by a vibrant NGO sector. . . .. . . For Pakistan, this confusion stems from the debate on whether the country was conceived as an Islamic state, or as a homeland for Muslims. . . . Milam then goes into a descriptive mode, chronicling the rise to power of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto in Pakistan and Mujibur Rehman in Bangladesh. While acknowledging the former’s prowess in foreign policy, he is critical of Bhutto’s domestic policies, particularly his suppression of dissent.
He points out that Bangladesh probably never deserved the epithet of being the “basket case” of the world, and is fast leaving this reputation behind with strong gains in social indicators, which are likely to boost long term economic growth.
Pakistan, on the other hand, has been characterised by “growth without development,” posting relatively high GDP growth rates in conjunction with social indicators that are below the average for countries at similar levels of development.
For Milam, the key reason for the discrepancy in the attitude towards social development in Bangladesh and Pakistan is the heterogeneity in Pakistani society, which breeds a culture of confrontation. The lack of vision of Pakistani leaders, who have failed to “build a nation from a collection of competing nationalities” has perpetuated the problem. The relative lack of success of Pakistani NGOs is also attributed to this culture of confrontation, as well as the poor social position of women (compared to Bengali society) and the fact that NGOs in Pakistan are almost entirely dependent on donor funds.
In addition to social development divergence, the other major divergence between the two countries, in Milam’s view, lies in the attitudes of their respective militaries. In case of Bangladesh, the military appears to have broken out of its view of itself as the ultimate guarantor of state ideology in the early 1990s. The January 2007 takeover was a break in the political process, but the military appeared to be in no mood to hold on to power for a longer term throughout its two year stint. In Pakistan, in contrast, the military is unlikely to relinquish its political role.
His vision of Pakistan’s future is gloomy. He brings up the familiar bogeys — the possibility of the government being taken over by extremists (whose agenda is furthered by Pakistan’s lack of progress on social development), the likely inability of the government to arrest the sharp economic decline currently being experienced, the possible festering of the judicial crisis.
While there is little doubt that Pakistani society has become progressively more intolerant and discriminatory over the past three decades, as Milam has pointed out, the recent confrontation between the state and extremist groups appears to have the full backing of the people who have rejected a retrogressive political order.
The attackers made directly for the barracks of Military Intelligence and took several senior officials hostage, including the director general of Military Intelligence. They then presented a list of demands. According to some reports which have not been authenticated by independent sources, six prisoners were released on the militants' demands before the hostages were released after a commando operation on October 11.
PESHAWAR, Pakistan — Intelligence officials say a suspected U.S. missile strike has killed three alleged militants in Pakistan's North Waziristan tribal region.
The region lies adjacent to South Waziristan, an al-Qaida and Taliban stronghold that is the target of an offensive by Pakistani army soldiers.
Two intelligence officials say the drone-fired missile struck Spalaga, a village close to the border with South Waziristan, on Wednesday. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to media.
hello guys,
chinki is a racist term and is NOT acceptable on BR.
reason has been explained many times in various threads that are still around.
people who continue to use it after *many* requests not to do so, kindly edit it
yourself ASAP if you don't want to get warned.
and paki is not a racist term on BR, period.
Rahul.
______________
SS, extremely sorry I didn't reply on time.
yes I did. good to know it.
regards.
Looking at the enormous task that the TSP's military have in defeating-a tall order,or at least reducing the level of fundam,entalist attacks,would it be conceivable that as the going gets tough and the wounds are being licked and costs counted,another "agreement" as was earlier done at Swat takes place,with the ungodly controlling their tribal heartlands completely outside the law of Pakiland,while the remnants of the Paki state remain under state control?
The longer the war against Waziristan lasts,the more inclined and eager will be the other separatist forces in Baluchistan and in Sindh (Karachi) to make full use of the opportunity presented to them with the rump of the Paki Army entangled in the badlands.US tomfoolery can also be counted upon to further cloud the picture with their asinine drone attacks and we might even see the so-called "Afghan (bad) Taliban" taking part in league with their Paki (good) counterparts.Such a scenario would delight Uncle Sam and his strategists,the lessening of action on their front while they prop up a puppet in Kabul,plus the possibility of the break up of Pak along previously designated fault lines,which the Yanquis would immediately become midwives and godfathers of.Here lies an opportunity for India too, while Pak is all at sea in the mountains,we should encourage thsoe forces that wish to spin off from the monster.
Wow, never thought I'd see this Ekta Kappor style rona dhona on BRF!
Each dead Paki is one less terrorist. No two ways about it.
Even the yuppie Pakistanis rejoice when the 'racially inferior' Indians (Read Yindoos) are ripped to pieces on rail tracks. Those young porkis who got butchered at the University are the same piglets who boasted about how 10 Pakistanis held their own against 12873137107187 yindoo SDRE soldiers. Good for them, I'd say, they are on their way to meeting their idols.
I think many of us here are getting mixed up over two things - one is the principle of expressed variously as 'innocent until proven guilty, dont paint with broad brush, dont assume entire society is terrorist because of some bad apple, let us try and distinguish between good and bad', etc. This principle cannot be argued with. We all have to agree. The other is how to apply that principle, if at all it applies to TSP.
To apply that principle, some things have to be there on the ground. 1. A reasonably sizeable mass of people who are mere prisoners of the system and hence not at fault 2. Reasonable chance that they will find a voice sooner or later if given time, incentives, disincentives (like sanctions), tender love and care, etc. etc. I think TSP has been given more than enough chance by GOI/WKK/International community to prove both (1) and (2) and has failed big time.
Time to abandon the principle, with much regret, and look for means to deal with exceptional situation.
Pranav ji talks about psychology of individual and of Jekylls and Hydes. Frankly the consensus is the malady afflicting TSP is not some sort of mild depression that needs a visit by the shrink but a serious form of cancer. Time is for heavy dose of chemotherapy and possible amputations. At times like this, doctors do not worry about effect on good cells, hair loss, digestion troubles etc. They are more concerned about saving the patient. The patient, in this case, is not TSP but the entire Middle East and parts of Africa which clearly needs both positive examples (Turkey, Indonesia, the Muslims of India etc) and also negative examples of complete ruin, destruction and loss of humongous proportions that will follow inevitably if a certain course is pursued a.la TSP. I think if such a destruction is wrought upon TSP either by themselves or through external action, there is a small, and perhaps only, chance that the 'innocente' category will grow in numbers and find voice. There is also a chance that the 'neutrals' will become 'inncoents' and sympathisers will become at best neutrals. We have tried other ways and here we are.
The comparisons with Nazi Germany etc, are pointless. There is no need to look for mythical Wallenbergs and Rommels who are inside yet outside. Nazi Germany was run by one man and his death leads to death of the whole ideology. Same goes for LTTE-VP (though blind hero worship is a disease that will survive amongst Tamils for a long time, just that heroes come and go). But TSP and the jehadi-terrorist agenda is not a one person thing. It is a disease that has a life and momentum of its own..even secular states like Indonesia and Turkey are not immune to this. TSP which was found on the principles of fanatic barbarianism and inability and unwillingness to live peacefully with other religions has no chance to fight this disease. Progress in conquering the disease would lead inevitably to question its very raison-de-etre.
This is an issue that goes far beyond minor things like collateal damage in TSP either self inflicted or otherwise. If TSP wins, by win I mean carries on in this fashion with or without real victory, the whole concept that terrorism pays wins, leading many others to that conclusion. I am under no illusions that GOI/GOTUS has come to a conclusion that it is time to go for a delanda-TSP strategy in the overall interest of Middle East / South Asia / if not human civilisation..but we in the BRF need to have our compass clear and precise at the very least..
PESHAWAR, Pakistan — Mountains, mines and fierce clashes have slowed Pakistan's advance in South Waziristan, where an assault has killed 113 militants but could take longer than expected, officials said on Wednesday.
Pakistan faces its toughest military test against the militants to date in waging its ground assault on what is part of the lawless tribal belt where Al-Qaeda and Taliban networks are allegedly plotting attacks on the West.
There have been heavy clashes on the heights overlooking Kotkai, the hometown of Pakistani Taliban chief Hakimullah Mehsud and Qari Hussein, a reputed suicide bomb trainer, but troops have yet to storm the village.
The army said 15 militants were killed since its last updated toll, bringing the overall number to 113.
Some little restraint in the celebrations is advised.
Recall Mumbai 26/11. Besides the LeT, who has been implicated? Shadowy "Al-Qaeda" financial networks in the Gulf.
Now, who is suspected of financing folks like the TTP? The same, or similar entities.
Who are these rich Arab moneybags? Not much is known. Anybody can put on a Kaffiyeh, pretend to be a pious Sheikh, and start handing out money.
The folks behind these IED Mubaraks next door may be planning something on this side too. Intelligence warnings indicate that something is cooking (God forbid).
Those who are enemies of the Paks are not necessarily friends of the SDREs.
Just a few things to brood about. Hopefully we have gained some new insights since 26/11.
Last edited by Pranav on 21 Oct 2009 18:03, edited 3 times in total.
If 'Paki' is a slur, then 'Indian' is too..when one starts considering ones' own identity as a slur, one can say that identity has perhaps traveled quite far and reached that destination..
Those who are enemies of the Paks are not necessarily friends of the SDREs.
a minor correction first, enemy of "paks" ?? those ARE the paks !
nobody is saying they are friends of India. both sides will be happy to slit our throats and I must say it is nice to watch them fighting each other. no need to feel apologetic about it.
Just a few things to brood about. Hopefully we have learnt a few things since 26/11.
yes, hopefully......
give peace a chance, destroy pakistan
(not just the army)
to understand why the common populace of TSP itself is this much radicalised, please read this http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/ ... tBooks.pdf
SSridhar sahab, there was an excellent book/article by pervez hoodbhoy on this topic if I'm not mistaken.
do you have a link for it ?
Suppiah wrote:If 'Paki' is a slur, then 'Indian' is too..when one starts considering ones' own identity as a slur, one can say that identity has perhaps traveled quite far and reached that destination..
Traditionally "paki" is meant to refer pakistani citizen and similarly indian.
Its the image/personal information projection put forward by these two nationals which makes the name good or bad.
By virtue of its history and past.. "paki" word is an abuse. I would not like to be associated with this name.
On global stage, the ignorant one do mess up, but paki can't be used to call an indian.
(Infact , my frnd in australlia used to hear "paki" as abuse from aussies..though the abuser knew the diffrence.. he was a political science student )
The folks behind these IED Mubaraks next door may be planning something on this side too. Intelligence warnings indicate that something is cooking (God forbid).
Only difference is the TSP state apparatus will be coordination with the "good TTP" to ensure a successful strike on Desh..so no need to waste your tears on either the TTP or the Paki state.
Pak·is Chiefly British Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a person of Pakistani or South Asian birth or descent
Paki [ˈpækɪ] Brit slang, offensive
n pl Pakis
1. (Social Science / Peoples) a Pakistani or person of Pakistani descent
2. (Social Science / Peoples) (loosely) a person from any part of the Indian subcontinent
adj
1. (Social Science / Peoples) Pakistani or of Pakistani descent
2. (Social Science / Peoples) (loosely) denoting a person from the Indian subcontinent
(Primarily UK and Canada, sometimes the United States, New Zealand and India) a Pakistani or South Asian. Within the UK, the term originated in Northern England, where a large number of South Asians arrived in the 1950s and 1960s. It is usually considered offensive when used by a non-Asian in the UK.
So, What the word means is different, how it is used is pretty different, which is an abusive identity to whole south asians.
TSP which was found on the principles of fanatic barbarianism and inability and unwillingness to live peacefully with other religions has no chance to fight this disease. Progress in conquering the disease would lead inevitably to question its very raison-de-etre.
Thats exactly what i meant, even when i mentioned Nazi Germany. Hitler was not the only loner representing a fascist ideology. Italy, Spain, Japan all were under the boot of it. WW 2 was not a fight against the Japanese people or the German people and though it would be technically possible to view it as such, it would not reflect the core truth. That the real battle was one between ideologies, despite the hypocrisy of colonization that prevailed amongst Allied nations. The fact they fought under an ideology/ doctrine of freedom and anti-fascism too contributed to the collapse of colonialism in it's own way.
Pakistan is a subset victim country for sure of an ideology that believes the kufr must be destroyed and it seeks on itself the responsibility of Ghazwa E Hind. So it's not an == victim in the sense India is, it's a victim because the very forces of Ghazwa it intends breeding to destroy India, is hurting itself. Apostasy in Islam warrants death. People are kept to the flock not by acts of pious faith, but by fear. Fear is the key in every fascist society. Why is it that Muslim societies will always turn more hardline? It's very hard to fight a doctrine. The Talibs will always doctrinally beat the RAPE class ruling Pakistan today. Ultimately they will win. No Islam society ever in history has become moderate from a hardline posture. It's just a one way progression towards hardline. Malaysia is going that way, Indonesia will and Turkey too will ultimately.
It makes little sense hating individuals in all this. Like i said before, will one gloat at Saudi 5-10 year old school girls burning to death because the authorities sent them in because they were not covered, since they would've become big and joined the rotten Saudi Barbarian system anyways. I would attack the ideology that seeks to cover women in shuttlecock tents than laugh at the women who have to bear the plight.
The biggest problem the GOI faces in tackling Pakis is not the shortage of knee jerk anti-Pak haters, but the severe shortage of people who understand the ideological pinnings of Pakistans intense hatred to India. Lack of that understanding causes LKA to praise Jinnah, ABV to fall for NS, IKG to hug NS, MMS to capitulate in SeS. So by focussing on ' A good Paki is a dead one' or shock on 'only 2 teenage animals killed', in reality depicts a change of focus from the real causes we should be battling against. And when the ideological reasons we should be fighting against are lost, at the critical juncture there will be a dilemna to fight, because they've lost the reason/ raison-de-etre why we were fighting them in the first place itself. Thats the moral dilemna in the GOI vis a vis Pakistan and China too. Thats why PSJ and AP Venketesan say we succumb to the Chinese and bend over. Thats why an LKA who ranted knee jerk hatred against Muslims and Pakistan galore in the 90's, meekly became a WKK on his trip to Pakistan and hence forth. Hitting out at core ideology even subtly or unkowingly is very unnerving. Thats why China is rankled on AP and the GOI is still unsure why China is rankled.
The word Paki began in the UK because of the unique activities of the gentlemen of pakistani origin there. Such was their ungentlemanly conduct and so common was it amongst people of that particular ethnicity, that the term became a common term to describe them as implying various attributes as being completely at odds with normal civilizational behavior.
One can still see them in action through various news reports emanating form europe and all over the world for that matter. The pakistanis find it intriguing, since in their opinion they are only practicing pakistaniyat as it has been practiced for decades on end.
Unfortunately since people of indian origin look somewhat similar (although the true pakistani would digress as they are truly martial TFTA and the dirty Indians are SDRE with no exceptions), they became embroiled in a unnecessary hyphenation with the true pakistanis. Thus began the racial connotation that this word acquired. Of late, there is a move by indian origin people all over to distinguish themselves from the pakistaniyat practicing pakistanis. The pakistanis in all ingenuity have taken recourse to another term - south asian, in an attempt to cover up and distribute the blame for their actions.
So in my opinion, any individual practicising pakistaniyat by choice is a Paki. Those who don't practice pakistaniyat are excluded. This is not a racial slur.
The word that is used to describe the eye features of people from the northeast of India as also the people from the far east, has no other commonality other than an attribute that mother nature designed. This is not an attribute that people have by choice, but the way mother nature waved her brush. Usage of this word is racist and is rightfully banned.
Last edited by Gagan on 21 Oct 2009 18:30, edited 1 time in total.
Rahul M wrote:
. . there was an excellent book/article by pervez hoodbhoy on this topic if I'm not mistaken.
do you have a link for it ?
Rahul, I think you are referring to this:
“Schools or zealot factories”, Pervez Hoodbhoy, The Friday Times, Special 15th Anniversary Issue, June 2-8, 2006
It may be available on the TFT website. However, I have saved a gem from the above:
Religious vigilantes have turned campuses into an intellectual desert. On their orders drama, theatre, and musical events are forbidden, as is any activity that can bring male and female students together. In Punjab University, which is effectively run by the Jamaat-e-Islami, males and females must sit in separate sections of the classroom. Fanatical student mobs destroy musical instruments, sculptures and paintings. Religious piety is all-pervasive and evident in the burqas and beards that dominate campuses across the country. The azan is regularly given, even during class times, inside departments. Student activists from universities rove the streets in Peshawar and Lahore, throwing paint on billboards showing women’s faces. Posters on stair-walls in my department instruct one about the proper prayer to use while ascending or descending
More interesting nugget from the above mentioned article
..But the problem is deeper than the existence of the CW. The truth provokes fear – I well remember a former vice-chancellor of my university privately defending indoctrination and false information in textbooks by arguing that if we tell the truth, Pakistani children will question the very existence of Pakistan.
. Not sure if some Paki lurkers are infesting this Forum 
