Su-30: News and Discussion

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 20 Oct 2009 03:57

Does anyone know if the idea of an internal weapons bay for the Su-30MKI will be part of the MLU? I remember seeing some rendering on this thread a while back, but there wasn't a lot of information on it. how feasible it is, how man AAM it can carry internally ( I would assume at least 6 due to the size of the Su).

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 20 Oct 2009 10:37

^^^^
The actual question is how much of an RCS reduction it is going bring to the MKI. And how will that transform into an advantage fighting our enemies, who btw don't have anything that match up to the MKI as is. Cost of such an upgrade is the other thing..

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 20 Oct 2009 14:29

Nikhil T wrote:X-Posting

IAF may use fighters in Gulf of Aden
This is the IAF flexing its muscles! I really like how IAF has been proactive ever since the induction of the Sukhois.

The added benefit:

The Royal Air Force of Oman is the only other air force in the world to operate the Jaguars. It also operates F-16s.

akshay · Post by **akshay** » 20 Oct 2009 22:06

anupmisra wrote:
Nikhil T wrote:X-Posting
IAF may use fighters in Gulf of Aden

Sukhoi as a Reconnaisance asset, Why and how do we launch them?

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 21 Oct 2009 08:22

Sukhoi as a Reconnaisance asset, Why and how do we launch them?

Um. so we can relive some of the workload off of the warships patrolling for pirates. I assume they would be launched from air-bases in Oman or somewhere close by

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Oct 2009 08:53

wouldnt a troop of Heron drones be a more economical soln. Khan/NATO should have
plenty of drones freed up from Iraqi deployments.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Oct 2009 20:27

Do you guys really believe that the IAF + GoI would deploy MKIs JUST for pirate ops?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Oct 2009 22:41

on the same lines of not using radar on such exercise, RAM coating should not be used as well..

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 21 Oct 2009 22:54

NRao wrote:Do you guys really believe that the IAF + GoI would deploy MKIs JUST for pirate ops?

The deployment will be only in the name of anti-pirate ops.

but the real nature of deployment is totally diff.

akshay · Post by **akshay** » 22 Oct 2009 23:16

Su 30 will NOT be used for Pirate ops. Its like a hammer applied to an Ant.
Imagine a Su 30 flying within 200miles of a foriegn carrier for starters.

What we could discuss is a future base in Afgahnistan and basing these birds there. Nows thats worth imagining.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 22 Oct 2009 23:28

message deleting Djinn was here

akshay · Post by **akshay** » 22 Oct 2009 23:35

vaman wrote:Akshay sir

I would disagree,

Im not here to fight/flame, just for information outside the regular loop. Since people here said Oman I went on.

Whatever we deploy we need a Base first.

akshay · Post by **akshay** » 22 Oct 2009 23:45

Ive been searching for Cope India 04 performance between IAF and USAF. I did not find anything on this forum.
All internet/Archives news says we did very well against them.

Did we really win 90%?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 23 Oct 2009 00:42

Igorr wrote:OLS-35 specs.

Igor, how is OLS-35 Compared to ATFLIR of the US. Do you have any details as far as the ranges and the uses go. It is my knowledge that ATFLIR is a pod, unlike the OLS which is mounted directly in front of the aircraft, but it is capable of live video feed that it can pass on to others as it can be networked and has a range much longer than that of OLS in excess of 40 NAUTICAL MILES at altitudes exceeding 50,000 feet. Please correct me if I'm misinformed, but in my knowledge it has superior EO and IR which provides imaginery with less than or equal to 1m resloution. How good is the resloution of OLS 35? After comparing it with your handoust of OLS-35 the 90KM range in the REAR hemisphere seems very surprising as I thought the Russians were the first to design and expirement with FLIRS, as ATFLIRS can scan over 40 miles of ground target in FRONTAL hemisphere. Maybe i'm missing something here, but hope you can help set the record straight.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Oct 2009 00:51

akshay wrote:Ive been searching for Cope India 04 performance between IAF and USAF. I did not find anything on this forum.
All internet/Archives news says we did very well against them.

Did we really win 90%?

try here.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewforum.php?f=17

akshay · Post by **akshay** » 23 Oct 2009 13:18

Rahul M wrote: try here.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewforum.php?f=17

Yeah rahul i did see the archive..same bravado news you get. Just opening an old topic here for debate.

But The IAF did not fare well against the USAF is what I filtered through all sources. Head to Head Su 30 is a duck against the F15,even now.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 23 Oct 2009 13:33

The F-15 unless AESA equipped is no match for MKI. It is a lame duck fighter.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Oct 2009 13:44

akshay wrote:
Rahul M wrote: try here.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewforum.php?f=17
Yeah rahul i did see the archive..same bravado news you get. Just opening an old topic here for debate.

But The IAF did not fare well against the USAF is what I filtered through all sources. Head to Head Su 30 is a duck against the F15,even now.

could you explain what you mean by 'bravado news' ?
which sources did you filter through ? kindly post them.

Head to Head Su 30 is a duck against the F15,even now.

and that evaluation is based upon ?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 23 Oct 2009 14:05

Rahul M wrote:Quote:
Head to Head Su 30 is a duck against the F15,even now.

and that evaluation is based upon ?

May be that Fornoff video that was released after the Red Flag earlier this year.

akshay · Post by **akshay** » 23 Oct 2009 14:07

vavinash wrote:The F-15 unless AESA equipped is no match for MKI. It is a lame duck fighter.

you have the reason here. Su 30 still hasnt got a radar like that.
Also numerical odds were against USAF as the archives say.
Infact it is the Mig 29k thats should have matched with the F15, but neither that(Mig29k) neither Su 30 comes close. Both are only know entering AESA phase.

Aesa, then what about AMRAAM , now you will say without Amraam F15 is a dud.
So with AESA and AMRAAM, will a F15 win? yes sir, both are standard on F15.

Rahul when i say bravado news it means 'Semi Official', Not the real picture..

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 23 Oct 2009 15:38

I can put an AESA on a Cessna and arm it with AMRAAM.. will it win..
I can put an AESA on an MKI and arm it with R-73... will it win..
I can put an AESA on an F-15 and arm it with Aim-9X will it win..

There would be hundreds of scenario where one or the other would have the upper hand.. you have to fight to your advantages..

AESA would give you relatively better situational awareness but then what.. you would need equally effective arms to fight with.. AMRAAM and R-77 are comparable (debatable) but then R-27 ER/ET are a relatively more deadly combo.. it all depends on how best you put your arms to use when it really matters as no matter what none are having pebble sized RCS on whatever radar system.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Oct 2009 15:52

akshay wrote:.......
Rahul when i say bravado news it means 'Semi Official', Not the real picture..

hold on there, am I to understand that you have access to the 'real picture' in official reports while us mere mortals have to live on lowly 'bravado news' ??

what are you doing here on BR, your exalted highness, among the unwashed hoi polloi ?

incidentally, while people have all kinds of imagination and fantasy about what the F-15 can or can't do, the reality doesn't even remotely match their flights of fantasy. the mountain home exercises for example.

and just FWIW, the su's at COPE2004 weren't even the mki's, only the plain su-30k's were used.
the mki is a different beast altogether.

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 23 Oct 2009 17:38

akshay wrote:But The IAF did not fare well against the USAF is what I filtered through all sources. Head to Head Su 30 is a duck against the F15,even now.

Mate with all due respect to you, it would not be a bad idea if you could give the link of the 'sources filtered' by you. I don't see any point in digging old graves, and making stunning claims without backing them with any credible source!!

As far as SU 30 being a duck against F 15 is concerned, you might want to go through the revelation that was made to USA's Senate subcommittee. Few quotes for you from American as well as Indian media:

Air Force's Top Fighter Is Brought Down to Earth

Not only did the U.S. aircraft lose, but they lost repeatedly. According to one member of Congress who was briefed on the exercise, the U.S. Air Force's top-of-the-line fighter, the F-15 Eagle, was defeated more than 90% of the time in simulated dogfights with Indian pilots.

^^^^
This was from Los Angeles Times. Now there is one from Outlook :

USAF chief Gen John Jumper told a Senate subcommittee in March that the results of Cope India were "very revealing".

"We were pleasantly surprised by IAF pilots. It was certainly a validation for us that we have to ensure we keep our edge in both skill and equipment," Col Jeffrey LeVault, an operations chief in the Pacific Air Forces, told Outlook in a telephone interview from Hawaii. "We always see the need for changes in training and tactics. It was a great learning experience for our pilots," he added. The IAF came out tops in terms of both skill and equipment. India’s Su-30s had a clear advantage over the F-15C in long-range flights, and even though the US and Indian pilots were "seeing" each other at the same time on their radars, the Indian pilots were able to "fire" first, sources said. That means the Indian radars are more advanced, which came as a real shocker for the USAF

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 Oct 2009 17:46

edited.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 23 Oct 2009 18:24

You know Asit...I think BR already knows about these old article. Plz dont waste threads with them. I have gotten tired to listening about the Cop india exercises.....aage badho.!!!

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 23 Oct 2009 20:08

viveks wrote:You know Asit...I think BR already knows about these old article. Plz dont waste threads with them. I have gotten tired to listening about the Cop india exercises.....aage badho.!!!

Dear Vivek, at the risk of sounding a bit rude, I would like to say that BR comprises of thousands of members & lurkers. Each of these members/lurkers have different skill sets, different background and different level of knowledge altogether.

You may be very knowledgeable. And you may be tired of 'cop India'. But for every knowledgeable person like you, there are some petty souls like me, who never get tired of these things. I was responding to the comments made by Akshay. If you consider it a 'waste', then I would request you to simply ignore my post. There is no need to act as a self proclaimed spokesperson of BR and give me a undesirable lecture.

I have seen a tendency amongst few people - the moment they see a person with fewer number of posts, they start patronising him ! I wonder if your tone would have been the same, had a BR Oldie written the same thing !

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Oct 2009 00:21

akshay wrote:you have the reason here. Su 30 still hasnt got a radar like that.

like what ? the regular MSA on almost all F-15s serving worldwide ? the PESA Bars is superior to the APG-63(V)1 MSA. and only a handful of F-15s have the APG-63(V)3 AESA radar. even South Korean F-15Ks till now have had the MSA radar. they may purchase the AESA version for their next follow-on purchase.

Also numerical odds were against USAF as the archives say.

so what ? they always train for that, assuming that the enemy is numerically superior. if they win they'll tout it as an achievement- if they lose, its an excuse. by the way, some of the IAF fighters were simply strikers that had to be prevented from getting through to the target. they didn't engage the F-15s. I'm sure all this is given in the archives.

Infact it is the Mig 29k thats should have matched with the F15, but neither that(Mig29k) neither Su 30 comes close. Both are only know entering AESA phase.

what on earth does this statement mean ? the MiG-29Ks should have matched the F-15s ? dude, the MiG-29Ks haven't even entered service as yet, and they are going to do so with the Indian Navy, not IAF. and what makes you say that neither the MiG-29K or the MKI comes close to the F-15 ? if you're simply trolling, then it’s a different issue.

Aesa, then what about AMRAAM , now you will say without Amraam F15 is a dud.

who said anything of the kind that you're saying ? the AMRAAM is a good BVR missile, but it can be tackled through jamming. anyhow, the IAF does have BVR missiles of equal range- the R-77.

So with AESA and AMRAAM, will a F15 win? yes sir, both are standard on F15.

please ! don't show your total ignorance by stating such things. the AESA is not STANDARD on the F-15. the user can decide to go with an AESA or a MSA radar, even today.

kush · Post by **kush** » 24 Oct 2009 13:32

Asit P wrote: Dear Vivek, at the risk of sounding a bit rude, I would like to say that BR comprises of thousands of members & lurkers. Each of these members/lurkers have different skill sets, different background and different level of knowledge altogether.

Exactly. Its good for kumbhkarans like me.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 24 Oct 2009 14:20

People who are new can always read the archives and old posts in current threads. Why rehash same thing again and again ? That applies to members with 1 as well as 1000 posts.

George J · Post by **George J** » 25 Oct 2009 08:41

I come rushing back to this thread thinking there is good discussion going on about MAWS and IFDL and you guys are back to Cope INDIA ? THIS THREAD IS FOR Su-30 NEWS and DISCUSSION, SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED IN 2004 WAS NEWS THEN NOT IN 2009.

NO DISCUSSION ABOUT RED FLAG, TAKE IT TO NEWBIE QUESTION. TRUST ME IF THERE IS ANYTHING IN THE NEWBIE THREAD THAT WARRANTS DISCUSSION IT WILL BE BROUGHT BACK TO THE RIGHT THREAD

George J · Post by **George J** » 25 Oct 2009 09:03

So if you kids would allow me to get back to a more "boring" topic.

Rakall:
I am personally very confused about this:
1) If only CAS birds have MAWS then where is the MAWS on the Jag/Migs? They still have Tarang.
2) If only CAS birds have MAWS then the Su-30MKM are for CAS and not air dominance?

And technically I am violating our own rules about this thread...since this is from the 2007 discussion

So the housing on the MKM is in place but there is no MAWS 300 sensor when they were delivered, so have they been fitted?

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Oct 2009 10:43

The way I see it MAWS as a dedicated/separate unit is relatively a new development as against the RWR which has been a standard fit for fixed/rotary assets for quite some time now this should explain former not being a part of avionics suite of relatively older AC but shall be a standard fit with new one's or be apart of MLUs.Also the RWR in itself is capable of functioning as a missile approach warning suite for AAMs which employ active seekers. Having said that I wonder how the chaff/flare dispensers of fighter AC function without a MAWS for IIR/IR or even SARH guided missiles. (unless missile approaches head on)

Btw if the stories about rearward facing radar (N012 ?) are true , we have our MAWS isn't it ?

krish.pf · Post by **krish.pf** » 25 Oct 2009 21:32

About the N012, how many targets can it track and attack? Does the MKK have this radar as well? Also about the engine, is it really 13300kgf(29400lbf)? Everywhere I see Al-31fp seems to be nothing but Al-31f with thrust vectoring. It's the same 12500kgf thrust. The only site which says it has a higher thrust is airwar.ru and even that says the thrust is only less than 12800. Can someone please clarify. Thanks.

George J · Post by **George J** » 25 Oct 2009 21:52

The official answers from MKI drivers (two separate drivers ....asked 2 years apart) when asked about the N012:

I am not at liberty to answer that question.

Unofficially if you look at the tailboom on the Su-34 and compare it to emaciated tailboom on the Su-30MK family one can guesstimate that there is no radar. That's where this inane discussion should end....anything more is pretty much irrelevant.

AL-31FP thrust:
Either I can spoon feed you the actual numbers which is what seems to be norm on BRF or I can teach you how to find them. The correct way to evaluate numbers, performance etc is to stick to what OEM says or the IAF says. Even here best source of info (which is not always correct) is the Shiny Brochures and info board that OEM or IAF puts up. Info boards would contain the LATEST info, OEM website may not always be updated. Please understand the AL-31FP is an in-production, in-service engine....and when you compare it some figment of panda/ukranian/MPP Salyut imagination its like talking about Death Star.

krish.pf · Post by **krish.pf** » 25 Oct 2009 22:11

So there is no tail radar... that's a surprise.

I can teach you how to find them. The correct way to evaluate numbers, performance etc is to stick to what OEM says or the IAF says. Even here best source of info (which is not always correct) is the Shiny Brochures and info board that OEM or IAF puts up.

That's fine with me. But did the IAF or the OEM really display such boards with 13300 thrust?

George J · Post by **George J** » 25 Oct 2009 22:23

Again.....that's spoon feeding. If you found BRF surely you can find NPO Saturn's website. If they say AL-31FP has only 1Kgf thrust then that EXACTLY what it has. The only other way to over rule that info would be:

1) You find the latest MAKS 2009 poster from NPO Saturn or Ufa (mfg of engine) that talks about the -31FP and see what it says.
2) You find a pretty old info board that IAF put up in front of the MKI which contradicts NPO Saturn. Its right here on BR (there is a site called BR ....most people dont know that).
3) You find a direct quote from V.Chepkin which says "AL-31FP on the MKI has _______ kgf (insert your favorite number here) of thrust"

I can tell you the answer but that will only encourage more spoon feeding.......don't worry about what others say, if they say 13,300 or even 133,000 its for them to show us the shiny brochure. And again...shiny brochures from fictional engines are as reliable as the Death Star plans I have on my R2D2.

krish.pf · Post by **krish.pf** » 25 Oct 2009 22:56

If you found BRF surely you can find NPO Saturn's website. If they say AL-31FP has only 1Kgf thrust then that EXACTLY what it has. The only other way to over rule that info would be:

Found the site,
http://translate.google.co.in/translate ... %2F!new%2F

and they say it's 12500. So lets see the other sources:

You find the latest MAKS 2009 poster from NPO Saturn or Ufa (mfg of engine) that talks about the -31FP and see what it says.

Nope couldn't find it.

You find a pretty old info board that IAF put up in front of the MKI which contradicts NPO Saturn. Its right here on BR (there is a site called BR ....most people dont know that).

Checked all images on BR. No infoboard.

And the aircraft specs are gone! Seems the site is being updated/under construction.

You find a direct quote from V.Chepkin which says "AL-31FP on the MKI has _______ kgf (insert your favorite number here) of thrust"

No luck with V.chepkins quote.

I'm not worried about Ws-10a or any other engines. I just want to see the the 13300 figure from a good source.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 25 Oct 2009 23:02

yeah specs under upgradation.

The info board is probably somewhere in the media section http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media . Check the static display pics of Aero India and its there somewhre.

-Jagan

Added - http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... I.jpg.html

George J · Post by **George J** » 25 Oct 2009 23:16

You need to be banned for spoon feeding.

And that's not the info board that I was talking about. Anyone who posts MK-1 needs to be tarred and feathered. There is a IAF plaque placed before an MKI which talks about thrust and since that's IAF plaque THEY are responsible for its content this once can be blamed on FICCI.

akshay · Post by **akshay** » 25 Oct 2009 23:48

Rahul M wrote:
akshay wrote:.......
Rahul when i say bravado news it means 'Semi Official', Not the real picture..
hold on there, am I to understand that you have access to the 'real picture' in official reports while us mere mortals have to live on lowly 'bravado news' ??
what are you doing here on BR, your exalted highness, among the unwashed hoi polloi ?

incidentally, while people have all kinds of imagination and fantasy about what the F-15 can or can't do, the reality doesn't even remotely match their flights of fantasy. the mountain home exercises for example.

and just FWIW, the su's at COPE2004 weren't even the mki's, only the plain su-30k's were used.
the mki is a different beast altogether.

Think I tread on lots of toes with my topic, nothing intentional for su 30 fans. As I seen the Archives thats what I got,you guys feel otherwise. my post said "Did we win 90%?"
Cuz that putting a big figure.
As for Mig levelling of thats because the M29 was built to respond to F15 threat. This ain't the forum for that.

As for hoipolloi, i do consider the archives semi official. Since you have more idea..
I found arcticles bout Cope 08..so i asked.