Indian Military Aviation

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 04 Nov 2009 21:39

can it land back if no suitable target is found

Drevin wrote:Don't mean to interrupt but this news maynot have been posted here.

india buys harop ucav

Usually launched from ground- or sea-based canisters, the “Harop” can be also be adapted for air-launch. The Harop is a vehicle launched, UAV controlled by a remote operator and capable of flying more than 1,000 kilometers and loitering for hours with a 51 pound warhead. Like the autonomous Harpy, the UAV is primarily geared toward the Suppression of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD) role. It features two modes of guidance to the target. One is homing-in on radio emissions with its anti-radar homing system, or unlike the Harpy, have its operator select static or moving targets with the drones electro-optical (TV) sensor. Using the operator mode, targets can be hit regardless of whether they emit signals or not. This line of sight capability can be used at ranges up to 150 kilometers or
longer using relays built into each weapon.
Can be air-launched. however its a self-destruct ucav.livemint

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 04 Nov 2009 21:42

@AdityaG
its controlled by an operator. so if the target doesn't materialize .... say a wanted criminal ..... then the human controller must guide the harop to a rendezvous point where it is either picked up or harmlessly destroyed.

u know what i guessed all of that

So half of it maybe &%^*(@!

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 Nov 2009 21:45

What ?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 04 Nov 2009 23:03

Plans to replace Cheetah and Chetak chopper to get delayed

Plans to replace the ageing Cheetah and Chetak chopper fleet of the Army and Air Force are set to get delayed, thanks to indecision of the Defence Ministry over conducting of the field trials. The original plan was to induct 197 Light Utility Helicopters (LUHs) starting from 2009-10 but the process has not moved beyond the Request for Proposal stage and the vendors response to it.

The summer trials were planned to be held by June-July this year but they have not been held, resulting in delay of six months in the fresh acquisition process for the choppers. Winter trials, whose deadline is February 15, 2010, are also unlikely to be held as no decision has yet been taken on the schedule, Army sources said in New Delhi.

This is the second time the Rs 3,500 crore tender has been released for inducting 197 LUHs as the first acquisition process was cancelled in 2007 after it was found that Eurocopter had fielded a civilian variant of its chopper for the trials. The cancellation of the previous process in 2007 had pushed back the deal by four years and the present delays in the field trials would mean that the choppers can start getting inducted only in 2013-14 given there are no further delays in the process, they said.

Three vendors, including Eurocopter, Italian Agusta Westland and Russian Mil Corporation, submitted their responses in December 2008 to the tender issued in June last year. Defence Ministry's Technical Evaluation Committee completed its evaluations by April-May this year and had said that the participating companies would be soon invited for trials. The next trials, sources said, would be possible only in April-May next year.

The previous tender was issued in 2003 and American Bell and Eurocopter were short listed for field trials. Of the 197 choppers to be procured, the Army will get 133 choppers and rest 54 will go to IAF for replacing their old French-origin fleet. The two forces need a total of 384 choppers, of which 197 will be supplied by foreign vendors and the rest would be co-developed by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited with a foreign manufacturer.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 04 Nov 2009 23:20

^^ This was posted once on the previous page.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 04 Nov 2009 23:20

Gagan wrote:Is it possible to bring the HAROP in safely if it is deemed that it is not to be used? Or is it a single fire and forget weapon like say an intelligent JDAM.

Yes. It is designed for two reasons - one to provide live recon and if the intel gathered matches one currently seen, then voila! however, if the intel and recon is not the same and one decides that they need more surveillance, then it can loiter until it runs out of gas and then can be landed either any time an operator wishes to or after a compelete recon is done. A lot of people including myself thinks that this is a worthless piece of shit wasting $10million for a 50 pound explosive, however we seem to forget the bigger picture. If used correctly, this thing can give us live intel day in and day out, expose all the hideouts and the bases of TSP and map all the terrain within it's range of 1000km and free up some ground troops for a much needed R&R or for any other tasks where they are short on manpower. Heck it can even tell the soliders of where the enemy is hiding and where they are drawing the fire from, as long as all the right tools are synched with the control center...Trust me the $10 million is well justified for GI's manning the FOB..

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 Nov 2009 01:25

Drevin wrote:Gagan my guess would be that Harop is not a true UCAV and has more in common with loitering munition technology.

Wikipedia says that it is a loitering munition & is itself the weapon. At $10 Million a pop, it better be taking out some REALLY HIGH VALUE targets. Unless there are some hidden terms in the contract like TOT, its way too pricey.

Apparently, 55 Predators have been lost till March 2009 (11 in combat). So, losses seem common in the UAV world (dunno how our experience with Heron has been). Hope there is some insurance built into the contract. Otherwise, if the operator presses the red button instead of the green, he can kiss his job good-bye.

Also checked out the specs for the Heron UAV: 40 hours endurance and 350 KM range. Am curious about why Harop, with a 6 hour endurance has a 1000 KM range, while Heron has only a 350 KM range !! Maybe because Heron has a 2 way ticket while the Harop is 1 way

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Nov 2009 02:40

Harop seems to be the only one that is a UAVC and also is the munition too (all in one). The others carry munition (and can dump them before they land) among other things. Do not know if that makes a diff.

Cost? I suspect it is the electronics and the importance of it - one will not let it fly until is is absolutely needed. It is worth it because it actually "saves" a plane + a pilot (SEAD).

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 Nov 2009 04:52

I am not sure NRao. A loitering UAV flying at ~200 KMPH is not going to pose a threat to an S-300 system. It will be shot down fairly easily. I'd love to be proved wrong though.

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Nov 2009 05:41

^ Prem in modern battlefield littered with ADS it pays to have relatively inexpensive and more importantly unmanned platforms to take out SAM batteries/installations. Harop can navigate ,search and engage a target on its own or even be controlled remotely ; a low flying aircraft of this size is still a pretty elusive target and things become even more tricky when you employ these alongside manned fighters on a strike mission .

SRay · Post by **SRay** » 05 Nov 2009 07:55

Youtube video of the Harop in action.

Video action begins at 40sec mark.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 05 Nov 2009 09:55

MTA related news, slight mention of brahmos-2 hypersonic

The continuation of the India Russia Joint Venture BrahMos is also likely to be discussed, in the context of on-going discussion for the development of the next generation hypersonic Cruise Missiles – BrahMos-2 and the on-going proposal to coordinate the BrahMos with the SU 30 MK1.

Both sides will also review the progress on the MTA, on which the Inter-Governmental Agreement had been signed during the visit of Dr Manmohan Singh’s to Moscow in November 2007. Both sides have been discussing the formation of the Joint Venture company

any chaiwallah/paanwallah info on the name of the new company

Also, it would be great if we could discuss the epic funding needed for this project. I have heard figures like 1.2billion$ being thrown around.

i think, mta-joint-venture > brahmos1 venture, money-wise, technology-wise, market-feasibility-wise.

another link

Both sides also are reviewing the progress on the MTA, for which an agreement was signed during the Indian prime minister's visit to Moscow in 2007. A joint venture (JV) company needs to be formed to design, develop and produce the MTA in the 15-20 ton class to meet the requirements of the Russian and Indian armed forces. The countries are likely to conclude an agreement to form the joint venture shortly, according to an official statement.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 05 Nov 2009 18:11

Excellent coverage of Dhruv in Ecuador at livefist. Enjoy the eye candy!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Nov 2009 21:30

Prem Kumar wrote:I am not sure NRao. A loitering UAV flying at ~200 KMPH is not going to pose a threat to an S-300 system. It will be shot down fairly easily. I'd love to be proved wrong though.

I understand. However, it is the armed forces that have to be sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Harop

a 8' x 9' gizmo

and:

http://defense-update.com/products/h/harop.html

US, UK, Turkey, Israel and India.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Nov 2009 22:52

Nov 2009 :: India's Strategic Defense Transformation

91 pages.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 Nov 2009 23:30

NRao wrote:
I understand. However, it is the armed forces that have to be sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Harop

a 8' x 9' gizmo

and:

http://defense-update.com/products/h/harop.html

US, UK, Turkey, Israel and India.

Agreed. I have heard that India had purchased some S-300 systems from Russia (maybe to protect New Delhi). So, the IAF can conduct a mock Harop versus S-300 exercise to validate the effectiveness. Israel and India share the same S-300 threat.

An aspect that I read about Harop in a couple of news articles is about its use as an "element of surprise" weapon. Like a pre-emptive attack against BM or SAM sites prior to a full blown air attack, which makes sense from an Israeli standpoint vis-a-vis Iran.

Also interesting is communications to the ground station over a 1000 KM range. It has to happen via a satellite. The question is - which one? Perhaps the dedicated military communications satellite to be launched in 2010 will serve this purpose.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Nov 2009 02:34

PK,

Harop is truck launch-able. Think about that. A'stan is good to go too? A place called Jacobabad (sign that agreement with the US, send it in to refuel at the US base there ........................)?????

Kidding aside (I really like that idea about Jacob), most useful parts of Pakistan are about 300 Kms deep. 1000 Km range perhaps is meant fro the other border.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 15 Nov 2009 01:03

C-17 discussion in new thread. continue there http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=3&t=5291

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2009 06:58

Prem Kumar wrote:I am not sure NRao. A loitering UAV flying at ~200 KMPH is not going to pose a threat to an S-300 system. It will be shot down fairly easily. I'd love to be proved wrong though.

That UAV is a small one and it probably has composite wings - I think warhead weight is all of 23 kg - so you can imagine how small a radar signature it generates. In any case as per FORCE magazine (which is now available in news stands in India, and which I am buying regularly

) the big advantage of HAROP is its ability to vary its angle of descent onto a target and becomes useful as a UAV cum pinpoint munition in an urban setting or in mountainous terrain.

As an ASIDE FORCE magazine has Adm Arun Prakash as an associate editor and is a refreshing addition to my sources of jingo-info. Some IIT guys seem to have made a nice looking hovering/loitering UAV and a picture of that exists.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2009 07:24

NRao wrote:PK,

Harop is truck launch-able. .

As per FORCE - Harop is also Su 30 and Jaguar launchable

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2009 10:13

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/803 ... built.html
Saras prototype 3 to fly 2010

IAF to induct 15 indigenously-built Saras aircraft
...
Engineers at NAL are now building another prototype which is expected to be flight tested next year. NAL expected the aircraft to be certified by 2010.
Saras is only the second plane after Hansa, a two-seater trainer aircraft, that is being developed indigenously.
NAL is also working on designing a 70-seat passenger aircraft called the RTA-70 for regional transport.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2009 11:04

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _Harop.jpg

the dorsal bulge holding the canard foreplanes would be housing a satcom dish as per most UAV layouts.

but if India is only buying 10 and they cost $10mil each, thats a fairly steep price for a consumable munition
and something which if spotted is a fairly easy target for radar directed L70 type guns or manned fighters.

perhaps the idea is only to isolate the S300 battery radar locations using its loitering mode, unleash a volley
of brahmos or KH31P/KH59 into that location and fly the Harop back to base -a kind of UAV SEAD platform.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2009 12:47

Brando wrote:Spending 10 million dollars per UAV to self destruct isnt really effective if they can be easily brought down with SAM's,

Easily? What kind of radar/IR signature do you think will be produced by a HAROP loitering 1 km overhead. A 3 meter UAV is stealth by definition. Considering that the moment the radar is switched on the HAROP could lock on and pinpoint the site of the radar after which the radar can be destroyed by the HAROP, the cost of the machine seems miniscule compared to the degradation it causes to enemy defences. Provided it works as advertised.

mahan · Post by **mahan** » 15 Nov 2009 17:11

Its not 10 pieces of missiles

Rather 10 systems/unit

And each unit has xxx no of missiles of assigned.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 16 Nov 2009 10:37

India to Acquire Special Electronic Mission Business Jets for Strategic Surveillance

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Nov 2009 04:20

From Pioneer, 17 Nov 2009

LINK

FLASH | Tuesday, November 17, 2009 | Email | Print |

India should build asymmetric warfare capabilities: Antony

PTI | New Delhi

With gaps in the military capabilities of India and China growing, Defence Minister AK Antony on Monday said the country should "build" asymmetric warfare capabilities to counter threats from larger armed forces.

"We (Indians) need to conceptualise and build asymmetric capabilities against superior forces," Antony told the first Consultative Committee meeting of new Members of Parliament attached to the Defence Ministry, which dwelt on the Indian Air Force (IAF) strengths and weaknesses, here.

He said the Government's endeavours were aimed at ensuring the IAF's capabilities are in consonance with India's stature, aspirations and threat perceptions, and it was taking a series of steps to develop the IAF into a "dominant aerospace power."

The Defence Minister said the steps included enhancing significantly the strategic reach of IAF to operate effectively far away from the Indian mainland and integrating potent capabilities in terms of space-based assets, air defence, surveillance, modern aircraft and advanced weapon systems.

Referring to the perspective plans of the Armed Forces, he said the gestation period for induction of new equipment was long and, therefore, there should be clarity in strategic assessments and projection of requirements.

"We need to hasten our procurements to prevent voids in defence preparedness," he added.

Antony said efforts are also being made in the Defence Ministry and its various wings to ensure that the country reached the level of developed countries in defence technologies, without going through all the intermediate steps.

"In our drive for modernisation and in execution of our daily tasks, we must be ever mindful of economy and avoid waste or duplication. We must lend our shoulders to indigenisation and think of ways in which we can reach the level of advanced states without necessarily following all the intermediate steps," he said.

Antony informed the members that IAF was in the process of considerable transformation and modernisation.

Giving an account of various projects, he said the 'Hawk' Advanced Jet Trainers had already been inducted into the IAF, the inter-Governmental agreements on the Fifth General Fighter Aircraft and Multi-role Transport Aircraft had been inked with the Russians, and the evaluation process for the selection of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft was on.

The Members of Parliament, appreciating the IAF's role over the years in not only protecting the country but also providing humanitarian relief during natural disasters, wanted to know its road map for the next 10-20 years to meet the security challenges.

Some members expressed their concern over cases of corruption in acquisition process and under-utilisation of funds earmarked for capital acquisition.

IAF vice chief Air Marshal PK Barbora gave a detailed account of various measures being taken by the Air Force to spread its assets across the country, as also to keep the morale of air warriors high.

The MPs, who attended the Consultative Committee meeting included Murli Manohar Joshi, Shivaji Adhalrao Patil, Harsh Vardhan, Manish Tewari, Lalit Mohan Suklabaidya and S S Ramasubbu, all from the Lok Sabha, and Ram Chandra Khuntia, Shivanand Tiwari, Janardhan Waghmare and Veer Singh from the Rajya Sabha.

Maybe good idea for Delhi members to contact the MPs and their staff to provide info about BR.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Nov 2009 07:18

X-post.

rohitvats wrote:Paging one and all:

Does anyone has complete list of airports and ALG in NE in general and Arunachal Pradesh in particular? Please to provide link/information to this Talib.
Thank you in advance.

this has the AFS list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_In ... orce_bases

I will look for the ALGs.

added later :
http://peoples-post.com/nation/in-focus ... ounds.html

In Arunachal Pradesh, Machuka, Tuting, Ziro and Vijaynagar, are to be re-activated soon. While Vijaynagar is an ALG, the other three are airstrips.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/306 ... achal.html

The advanced landing grounds (ALG) will be upgraded so that the armed forces’ regular troop carrier AN-32 or the upcoming heavy-lift C-130J Hercules could land there, IAF vice chief Air Marshal PK Barbora said here on Wednesday.

Machuka, Tuting, Vijainagar, Ziro, Walong and Pasighat are the six ALGs being upgraded for landing of transport planes with materials and troops. This is part of a prime ministerial package to improve the aviation infrastructure in the north east.

this has some details.
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-north ... stics.html

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Nov 2009 08:03

are we getting the raytheon sensors and khan advanced systems into the harop? does that mean end user agreement is in place?.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 17 Nov 2009 19:52

MIG29, R60, HMS

It is reported that the R-60 was a tail-chase weapon, and that all-aspect performance was achieved by later models. Two new versions exist; the improved R-60M and a new R-60MK developed for the MiG-29. The MK variant has a head-on range of 12 km and a tail-on of 8 km, with a maximum speed of Mach 2.5 and uses proportional navigation for guidance. It became the first missile to be incorporated with the new helmet-mounted sighting system in the MiG-29.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... /AAMs/R60/

so this means mig29 uses R60 with HMS not R73 as of now and for the same reason never shown with IAF mig29s

offboresight capability depends not only on the viewing angle of IR seeker but also very much on HMS.
SURA HMS is not as capable as western HMS,so if R60,73 are used with TOP OWL,DASH then these missiles would have much better offboresight capability, saying this because most IR seeker of advanced high off boresight missiles don't see more than +/-90 even then these missiles can be fired off shoulder.

so according to this if archer is used with top owl or dash then it would be able to hit targets upto 90 degrees angles instead of 45 degree angle by using SURA HMS

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 17 Nov 2009 21:50

This is about a possible new camo pattern sighted on Dhruv... I saw a white and blue camo painted dhruv fly by my office ( manipal hospital Bangalore) a couple of days ago.. I want to see if someone else spotted the same or was it just my eyes playing tricks on me???

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 17 Nov 2009 22:03

According to Shiv Aroor's blog, Dhruv helicopters are back in air in Ecuador.

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Nov 2009 22:09

Bala Vignesh wrote:This is about a possible new camo pattern sighted on Dhruv... I saw a white and blue camo painted dhruv fly by my office ( manipal hospital Bangalore) a couple of days ago.. I want to see if someone else spotted the same or was it just my eyes playing tricks on me???

I did notice a normal army green camo dhruv with some sort of a long antenna protruding from the nose flying around...couldn't observe closely though since was in a meeting in ffice and noticed the dhruv through the window

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 17 Nov 2009 22:13

sum wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:This is about a possible new camo pattern sighted on Dhruv... I saw a white and blue camo painted dhruv fly by my office ( manipal hospital Bangalore) a couple of days ago.. I want to see if someone else spotted the same or was it just my eyes playing tricks on me???
I did notice a normal army green camo dhruv with some sort of a long antenna protruding from the nose flying around...couldn't observe closely though since was in a meeting in ffice and noticed the dhruv through the window

Yes! me too. Everyday there is atleast one flight above our college. It had the wheels like those on civilian version (tripod like).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Nov 2009 23:21

sum, long antenna or the 20 mm cannon ? could it have been one WSI dhruv flying around ?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 17 Nov 2009 23:24

Rustom crashes into a coconut tree

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/11/ex ... uring.html

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 18 Nov 2009 09:56

IAF women must choose between crib and cockpit

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 18 Nov 2009 10:49

while Rustom is coming up, why there is no effort to integrate missiles similar to Helina on any of the larger Israeli UAVs?, all those terrorist camps in the PoK region could have been laid to rest. Is Uncle vetoing Israeli technology similar to filtering in its intelligence inputs to us on LeT to be devoid of ISI/Pak Army role?

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Nov 2009 13:58

Rahul M wrote:sum, long antenna or the 20 mm cannon ? could it have been one WSI dhruv flying around ?

Certainly wasn't a cannon since it was just a thin wire kind of antenna( looked so from a distance)

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Nov 2009 01:08

Kudos to Air Marshal P K Barbora for calling spade a spade.

Netas using arms deals to settle scores: Barbora

Then, during an international conference on "Energising the Indian Aerospace Sector'', Air Marshal Barbora launched an attack on the culture of "irresponsible politics'' which "impinges very badly'' on the country's defence preparedness.

"The internal politics over the years is such that whatever defence requirements are cleared by the government, they are opposed by the opposition parties. And the same happens when roles change and the opposition sits in government,'' he said.

The tendency to score political points by referring defence deals struck by an earlier government to the Central Vigilance Commission brings modernisation of armed forces to a grinding halt. "Everyone looks at each other with suspicion,'' he said.

Seeking "pardon'' for "saying things which must be said'', Air Marshal Barbora then held that India should be "bold enough'' to allow more FDI in the defence sector as well as bolster the role of the domestic private sector in the arms manufacturing business.

It was in May 2001 that the defence industry sector was opened up to 100% private investment, with up to 26% FDI, with the aim of establishing a strong defence-industrial base. Till then, the defence sector was strictly the public sector's preserve.

But the policy has not shown much results since then, with the armed forces continuing to import around 70% of their military hardware and software from countries like Russia, Israel, France, UK and now, increasingly the US.

Even Pakistan does much better on the defence exports front, said Air Marshal Barbora. While defence PSUs like Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd are "pleased'' at producing just doors and undercarriages for European Airbus aircraft, China has taken huge strides and is making the "whole damn thing'', he added.

The IAF vice-chief did not stop at that. He even asked private companies to learn the art of `reverse engineering' in military technologies, which China has mastered and exploits to the hilt. "Has anyone ever had the courage to ask China why are you doing it? No one cares a hoot. If you can't make it yourself, you should at least know how to do reverse engineering,'' he said.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Nov 2009 01:15

absolutely love the way AM Barbora makes his points. you need a maverick like him now and then to upset the apple carts.